Temperament by Inclusion, Control and Affection

[INFtha14]

I wanted to add stuff about my mother and others. This theory is fascinating so I want to contribute from some people I know.

It's hard to tell be she seems like a possible
candidate for supine in all three.

Either Supine In Inclusion or Supine-Phlegmatic In Inclusion *?*
I think for MBTI she's for sure SFJ. Not entirely sure about e or i just
cause she's been through alot so it's burned her out and might have went to her Si if she's extroverted.

She definitely has alot of extroverted traits but seems introverted too?

Supine-Phleg Inclusion seems to fit her for the most part especially here "Introvert/extrovert -- expresses (behaves like) an introvert, but will respond like an extrovert when others initiate social interaction" and " Dry sense of humor which can be biting and sarcastic.
Strong-minded and very resistant to change."

Might even be Supine in Control as alot of the points made there too fit well in her behaviors I've seen her act out of and what she has even expressed.

Supine in Affection is another potential. She seems to exhibit alot of supine traits in all areas.

My father was very phlegmatic, so much so it drove my mother rather crazy. It seemed like nothing would ever bother him. I've only seen him seriously yell with real anger once. He had to be prodded quite abit to do some things.

A friend of my fathers told me how he was back in school days and mentioned how if he'd be picked on or something he'd let it roll right off his back and would appear to be unaffected.

He read a very emotion filled letter I wrote him and didn't shed one tear or show any expression :O.

He was just not a man of many expressions, very simple/consistent in what he liked and would always just sit outside just relaxing or taking a walk.
Definitely liked to take it easy, maybe too easy when it came to some critical matters.

I have a best friend that seems to be a complete melancholy *ISTJ*.
Very cautious regarding change, definitely does not let people in easy at all.
Cause of this I used to perceive *elementary* I was being rejected from being a potential friend and it bothered me abit.

Also has this very low energy vibe about her too and sometimes will get quiet all of a sudden cause of this low energy.

Funny thing is when I was baby my mother told me how content/peaceful I was. Someone told me I'd probably have the most content, peaceful, and well behaved children some day from observing my temperament.

Also back in HS someone who was interested in personality theory of the four temperaments was apparantly observing me talking with a friend so with excitement said how I seem "phlegmatic".

Just thought i'd add alittle variety on my end of other styles and what's been told to me by others as you may find that interesting Eric in relation to the Temperament Theory.

It's very fascinating how the differences illustrate themselves over general themes .

 

[INFtha14]

I find it slightly hard to choose between the profiles, because many of them are almost identical. Also, my results are eerily similar to Duchess's, but I don't really relate to her and what she's describing. What does that mean?

I was just going to say Nunki , tis very similar.
And I think Eric B covered it well with despite similarity and not relating coming from being INFJ *Fe* compared to my INFP *Fi*.

.

 

[Eric B]

Do you think your mother could be Melancholy or Melancholy Phlegmatic in Control? I could see where a pure Supine would look like an SFJ, but I think the SJ really fits Melancholy in Control, and the pure Supine would be INFP like yourself. Even the Supine's "service" seems to be for more of an Fi reason than Fe.

On the other hand, do you think she could be INFP? Her Fe use from what you described may well be "shadowy", which for an INFP would be what is known as the "Opposing Personality Complex". It would then hold true for you as well, but since you're more Phlegmatic in Affection, it would not come out the way hers does in close personal relations.

Also, INxP's can have a strong Si, because the tertiary often "inflates" itself. I know I seem like an SJ at times. So if you experience her tertiary Si, plus Oppositional Fe, she would look like an SFJ to you.

Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion would not respond as an extrovert; it responds as a Phlegmatic, which is what the hybrid temperment name means. If she responds as an extrovert, yet has the Phlegmatic humor, you could look at Phlegmatic Supine, which expresses as a Phlegmatic, but responds as a Supine, which would
share the same "extrovert" want as the pure Supine, and still lean towards the low side in expression.

What type would you think your father is? I would think a pure Phlegmatic would also fall into the INFP type, though it would me a much less openly emotional variation of the type. It's hard to tell if his emotionlessness is simply from Feeling being turned inward, or if he's a Thinking type. Phlegmatic in Inclusion with a Choleric Control would be INTP, and it seems that the Control for them might veer into the Melancholy range at times, but that was using the other test, and not sorting by ICA.

Some have suggested a pure Phlegmatic would be an actual "XXXX" type, and from that, I tried to work out an "81 Type" system allowing for moderate dichotomy preferences, but that might not work. There's a "76 Type" thread where someone actually tried to puto together the cognitive process order for the, and five of the 81 types could not be done, because with only one letter, or all X's, you really can't place the preferences.
So I'd allow that a pure Phlegmatic might simply be the most moderate form of any type. Still, the traditional portrayal of the temperament (as "introverted/people focused") would suggest INFP.

Your friends would naturally see you as Phlegmatic, because that's what you ultimately respond as in all three areas. To someone just passing by you, you would most likely look like a Melancholy.
I see you're also 6w7. I didn't catch your Enneagram before. I have said 6 also seems to be Supine. (Though 9 would be Phlegmatic). I had though Melancholy Phlegmatic would be more of a 4, or at least 6w5, but then, I have to further reanalyze how exactly those two systems correspond as well. For now, Melancholy Phlegmatic would be close enough to Supine for 6 to make sense.

 

[INFtha14]

Do you think your mother could be Melancholy or Melancholy Phlegmatic in Control? I could see where a pure Supine would look like an SFJ, but I think the SJ really fits Melancholy in Control, and the pure Supine would be INFP like yourself. Even the Supine's "service" seems to be for more of an Fi reason than Fe.

On the other hand, do you think she could be INFP? Her Fe use from what you described may well be "shadowy", which for an INFP would be what is known as the "Opposing Personality Complex". It would then hold true for you as well, but since you're more Phlegmatic in Affection, it would not come out the way hers does in close personal relations.

Also, INxP's can have a strong Si, because the tertiary often "inflates" itself. I know I seem like an SJ at times. So if you experience her tertiary Si, plus Oppositional Fe, she would look like an SFJ to you.

Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion would not respond as an extrovert; it responds as a Phlegmatic, which is what the hybrid temperment name means. If she responds as an extrovert, yet has the Phlegmatic humor, you could look at Phlegmatic Supine, which expresses as a Phlegmatic, but responds as a Supine, which would
share the same "extrovert" want as the pure Supine, and still lean towards the low side in expression.

What type would you think your father is? I would think a pure Phlegmatic would also fall into the INFP type, though it would me a much less openly emotional variation of the type. It's hard to tell if his emotionlessness is simply from Feeling being turned inward, or if he's a Thinking type. Phlegmatic in Inclusion with a Choleric Control would be INTP, and it seems that the Control for them might veer into the Melancholy range at times, but that was using the other test, and not sorting by ICA.

Some have suggested a pure Phlegmatic would be an actual "XXXX" type, and from that, I tried to work out an "81 Type" system allowing for moderate dichotomy preferences, but that might not work. There's a "76 Type" thread where someone actually tried to puto together the cognitive process order for the, and five of the 81 types could not be done, because with only one letter, or all X's, you really can't place the preferences.
So I'd allow that a pure Phlegmatic might simply be the most moderate form of any type. Still, the traditional portrayal of the temperament (as "introverted/people focused") would suggest INFP.

Your friends would naturally see you as Phlegmatic, because that's what you ultimately respond as in all three areas. To someone just passing by you, you would most likely look like a Melancholy.

I see you're also 6w7. I didn't catch your Enneagram before. I have said 6 also seems to be Supine. (Though 9 would be Phlegmatic). I had though Melancholy Phlegmatic would be more of a 4, or at least 6w5, but then, I have to further reanalyze how exactly those two systems correspond as well. For now, Melancholy Phlegmatic would be close enough to Supine for 6 to make sense.

hmm...now that you mention it Mel-Phleg in Control seems to explain her reaction in not having people tell her what to do *independence. Kinda similar to how i get defensive** but the difference is she sometimes will *unintentionally* think she can do that to others.

I always wondered that in the back of my mind if her Fe wasn't a conscious function. Many times she has used Fe roles in a way that is not so appealing, but my esfj friend her Fe is amazing I never get defensive with her usage of it.

I never feel forced or manipulated which from my mothers end not so much and it definitely brings out my "Opposing" Fe in that i resist it very stubbornly.

Hmm...It's hard to tell just cause of how old she is and what she's been through in her childhood. It seems as though she blocks herself emotionally from people especially when she's afraid that they don't care for her or are just using her.

I experience Si from tertiary so I can see it from my side but how do I detect it in her. Could be experiencing it when it seems like she digs in her heals in trying to keep things the way they are even if it's doing no good?

This to me can seem very controlling and childish especially if it's directed at another individual. That makes sense about if I exp. a tertiary Si and Opp Fe that she can look like an SFJ.

I thought possibly my father had a tertiary Si flavor but it's hard to detect in another.

When you say if she responds as an Extrovert but has phlegmatic humor, what do you mean for phlegmatic humor?

It's hard I could see both for her either
Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion or Phlegmatic Supine Inclusion but from reading it I can see a hint of leaning possibly to Phlegmatic Supine.

I think for my father he might be either INP or ISP. I would assume mostly INP but wouldn't be surprised if I found out he'd be a ISP.

I can definitely say my father was a super Enneagram 9 just the whole "sleep your life away" figuratively fits him. Like he just never let things bother him or move him to action unless pushed enough.

That fits cause I express Mel and respond Phlegmatic. I could see my friends going uh huh yep that's Dots in terms of phlegmatic and seeing how I react or respond.

Not to boast but to illustrate from my ISTJ friends side, she values that she can tell me anything and I'll throw cautions out there but I'll never try to judge her life or scold her like a parent etc.

I may not agree sometimes but that's also not my place either to step in that far into someone personal matters.

And for her I appreciate knowing when I tell her something it's like putting into a volt cause I know not a soul will find out and can confide in her for anything. The loyalty is a nice trait as well as i felt it took alot to earn it and her respect.

And for my ISTJ bestie I'd definitely agree with overall a melancholy tempermant, maybe alittle choleric in there? Can have quite a temper which to me seems unnecessary in some situations that she has shown it imho.

Yeah 6w7 fits the best for me at least after reading up on some riso and others, participating in a Eforum to figure out if I was either E4 or E6 cause it seemed close.

But when I looked into the integration points E6 fit, I definitely need to learn to relax and go with the flow abit more *E9*. And not beat myself up over a lack of acheivement or progress *E3*.

 

[cascadeco]

This was sort of hard to self-assess, but this is what I came up with -

Inclusion: Melancholy Phlegmatic
Control: Phlegmatic Melancholy / Phleg
Affection: honestly none of the descriptions really resonated with me, but I think I fall somewhere in the Phleg/Supine groupings. Def. not melancholy, choleric, or Sanguine though

 

[Eric B]

hmm...now that you mention it Mel-Phleg in Control seems to explain her reaction in not having people tell her what to do *independence. Kinda similar to how i get defensive** but the difference is she sometimes will *unintentionally* think she can do that to others.

I always wondered that in the back of my mind if her Fe wasn't a conscious function. Many times she has used Fe roles in a way that is not so appealing, but my esfj friend her Fe is amazing I never get defensive with her usage of it.

I never feel forced or manipulated which from my mothers end not so much and it definitely brings out my "Opposing" Fe in that i resist it very stubbornly.

Hmm...It's hard to tell just cause of how old she is and what she's been through in her childhood. It seems as though she blocks herself emotionally from people especially when she's afraid that they don't care for her or are just using her.

I experience Si from tertiary so I can see it from my side but how do I detect it in her. Could be experiencing it when it seems like she digs in her heals in trying to keep things the way they are even if it's doing no good?

This to me can seem very controlling and childish especially if it's directed at another individual. That makes sense about if I exp. a tertiary Si and Opp Fe that she can look like an SFJ.

I thought possibly my father had a tertiary Si flavor but it's hard to detect in another.

When you say if she responds as an Extrovert but has phlegmatic humor, what do you mean for phlegmatic humor?

It's hard I could see both for her either
Supine Phlegmatic in Inclusion or Phlegmatic Supine Inclusion but from reading it I can see a hint of leaning possibly to Phlegmatic Supine.

I think for my father he might be either INP or ISP. I would assume mostly INP but wouldn't be surprised if I found out he'd be a ISP.

I can definitely say my father was a super Enneagram 9 just the whole "sleep your life away" figuratively fits him. Like he just never let things bother him or move him to action unless pushed enough.

That fits cause I express Mel and respond Phlegmatic. I could see my friends going uh huh yep that's Dots in terms of phlegmatic and seeing how I react or respond.

Not to boast but to illustrate from my ISTJ friends side, she values that she can tell me anything and I'll throw cautions out there but I'll never try to judge her life or scold her like a parent etc.

I may not agree sometimes but that's also not my place either to step in that far into someone personal matters.

And for her I appreciate knowing when I tell her something it's like putting into a volt cause I know not a soul will find out and can confide in her for anything. The loyalty is a nice trait as well as i felt it took alot to earn it and her respect.

And for my ISTJ bestie I'd definitely agree with overall a melancholy tempermant, maybe alittle choleric in there? Can have quite a temper which to me seems unnecessary in some situations that she has shown it imho.

Yeah 6w7 fits the best for me at least after reading up on some riso and others, participating in a Eforum to figure out if I was either E4 or E6 cause it seemed close.

But when I looked into the integration points E6 fit, I definitely need to learn to relax and go with the flow abit more *E9*. And not beat myself up over a lack of acheivement or progress *E3*.

Well if you acknowledge her Fe might be shadow (unconscious; implying a possible INFP), then she would not have to be Melancholy Phlegmatic in Control. That suggestion was for if she was really SFJ. She could be Supine Phlegmatic as well. Both temperaments are next to each other, and inbetween Supine and Melancholy, and can go either way. She could still be Melancholy Phlegmatic, and SJ, while you have the same Control and be NF, because, again, they are inbetween, and the corresponding temperaments might overlap.

"Phlegmatic humor" would be what you described. The biting, sarcastic dry sense of humor. If she's P-S, this would be what she expresses with.He Si does sound possible "childish", though I guess someone with dom. or aux Si can dig in their heels (another APS Phlegmatic trait, BTW) and oppose change as well. Does she ever use Si in a more mature way, to inform her judgments?

If the ISTJ appears to have some Choleric, it could always be in Affection (as Inclusion and Control are more likely what correspond to type). He could also be Phlegmatic Melancholy in any of the areas, which would be a bit more expressive than Melancholy, and bordering on choleric.

For your father, I don't think an SP would be a full Phlegmatic. SP's tend to be more active. Keirsey did say SP was Sanguine, and I believe the Sanguine would lie in the area of Control (though the APS profiles for that focus a lot on an "Independent-Dependent conflict", which you don't directly see in SP profiles, but I believe the clues are possibly there, but glossed over by the more positive-focused MBTI and Keirsey).
So an ISFP could be Phlegmatic in Inclusion (BtS) and Affection, and Sanguine or Sanguine Phlegmatic in Control. Sanguine Phlegmatic in Control would not have the dependent swing tendency, and is likely a better fit for SP, and then he would be part Phlegmatic in the area of Control. (ISTP on the other hand, is a Melancholy/Sanguine).
So do you think he leans towards F or T?

 

[Eric B]

This was sort of hard to self-assess, but this is what I came up with -

Inclusion: Melancholy Phlegmatic
Control: Phlegmatic Melancholy / Phleg
Affection: honestly none of the descriptions really resonated with me, but I think I fall somewhere in the Phleg/Supine groupings. Def. not melancholy, choleric, or Sanguine though

OK, in Control, I take it you mean Phlegmatic-Melancholy OR Phlegmatic, right?
Well, Melancholy [-Phlegmatic] in Inclusion/Phlegmatic in Control would be another good match for INFJ. Almost all of them who take any kind of Galen test come up either as Melancholy/Phlegmatic*, or as Melancholy/Supine. If Phlegmatic-Melancholy in Control, that's still fairly close.

*(This being in tests stacking temperaments by strength, which I had taken as an indicator of a possible Inclusion/Control blend. Not in the "express/respond within one particular area" sense we have been using here. A temperament blended with Phlegmatic as it is being used here can either be within one area, or it can be a blend across Inclusion and Control , or it can be two strongest temperaments).

 

[cascadeco]

OK, in Control, I take it you mean Phlegmatic-Melancholy OR Phlegmatic, right?

Yes, that is correct.

Well, Melancholy [-Phlegmatic] in Inclusion/Phlegmatic in Control would be another good match for INFJ. Almost all of them who take any kind of Galen test come up either as Melancholy/Phlegmatic*, or as Melancholy/Supine. If Phlegmatic-Melancholy in Control, that's still fairly close.

The Melancholy-Phlegmatic combo didn't seem to fit me quite right - it seemed a little too stand-offish, and almost passive, and too quick to anger in an area that I wouldn't necessarily become angered in.

Phleg-Mel seemed more accurate in terms of the role I end up playing in the workforce; I somehow end up getting put in positions of responsibility/leadership, and am known for my diplomacy but also standing my ground and being confident in that. I also get along with pretty much anyone and am good at navigating team dynamics/working on a team. I often PREFER doing everything on my own, as I often don't trust others to do it as well or as competently (ha!) and I really dislike being the person monitoring other people, but I'm fine with the concept of teamwork and it's always been cited as one of my strengths - interpersonal skills/communication, calling things/inconsistencies to attention in meetings (but definitely not dominating meetings..I'd say I'm a 'silent force' who chooses words carefully ) etc. I'm def. pretty Chart-the-course.

 

[INFtha14]

Well if you acknowledge her Fe might be shadow (unconscious; implying a possible INFP), then she would not have to be Melancholy Phlegmatic in Control. That suggestion was for if she was really SFJ. She could be Supine Phlegmatic as well. Both temperaments are next to each other, and inbetween Supine and Melancholy, and can go either way. She could still be Melancholy Phlegmatic, and SJ, while you have the same Control and be NF, because, again, they are inbetween, and the corresponding temperaments might overlap.


"Phlegmatic humor" would be what you described. The biting, sarcastic dry sense of humor. If she's P-S, this would be what she expresses with.He Si does sound possible "childish", though I guess someone with dom. or aux Si can dig in their heels (another APS Phlegmatic trait, BTW) and oppose change as well. Does she ever use Si in a more mature way, to inform her judgments?

If the ISTJ appears to have some Choleric, it could always be in Affection (as Inclusion and Control are more likely what correspond to type). He could also be Phlegmatic Melancholy in any of the areas, which would be a bit more expressive than Melancholy, and bordering on choleric.

For your father, I don't think an SP would be a full Phlegmatic. SP's tend to be more active. Keirsey did say SP was Sanguine, and I believe the Sanguine would lie in the area of Control (though the APS profiles for that focus a lot on an "Independent-Dependent conflict", which you don't directly see in SP profiles, but I believe the clues are possibly there, but glossed over by the more positive-focused MBTI and Keirsey).
So an ISFP could be Phlegmatic in Inclusion (BtS) and Affection, and Sanguine or Sanguine Phlegmatic in Control. Sanguine Phlegmatic in Control would not have the dependent swing tendency, and is likely a better fit for SP, and then he would be part Phlegmatic in the area of Control. (ISTP on the other hand, is a Melancholy/Sanguine).
So do you think he leans towards F or T?

hmmm okay.
I've been thinking it over abit so here goes possibly?

I'm starting to think that my mother exhibits the Supine-phlegmatic in control and is most likely an ?SFJ. My friends mother is ESFJ and I see a similar expression of reaching out to others, natural response in catering to others needs and making them feel at home "hostest vibe". Feels she is responsible for others even if she is not responsible for what got them there in the first place.

To inform her judgements? hmm...like calmly and maturely addressing a concern with out letting it build up over feeling not appreciated?

Choleric in Affection could be a definite possibility for my ISTJ best friend.
I'll have to further look into the other two *inclusion/control* and examine.

That's what I've been wondering I thought my father could be a T but now I'm thinking he might of been an F? Definitely thought I saw some Fe (?). Could I be mistaken about this perceived sight of Fe? Maybe he was just showing a soft side that any father would have for his children which seemed an a external expression of his love.

My father wasn't very active *XD*, he loved his naps/downtime and wasn't very physical movement oriented. Definitely wasn't mechanically oriented either, he wasn't the type to have that skill in fixing a car, bathroom installations, sink etc.

Like he may excell and get by to deal with car trouble/sink/installations overall but it just wasn't something that was comfortable. My mother had the natural skill for stuff for more physical repair etc.

My mother would be the one to do all that stuff :O. I know, quite backwards right? .

I'd have to giggle the biggest giggle if my father was a INFP :O. I'm definitely thinking he's at least an INP.

Thank you again Eric for helping me with this .

 

[Eric B]

hmmm okay.
I've been thinking it over abit so here goes possibly?

I'm starting to think that my mother exhibits the Supine-phlegmatic in control and is most likely an ?SFJ. My friends mother is ESFJ and I see a similar expression of reaching out to others, natural response in catering to others needs and making them feel at home "hostest vibe". Feels she is responsible for others even if she is not responsible for what got them there in the first place.

Well; I guess that's close enough. (Supine Phlegmatic in Control in the SJ range).

To inform her judgements? hmm...like calmly and maturely addressing a concern with out letting it build up over feeling not appreciated?

I meant as her primary perception, as oppoased to a less mature tertiary Si used to find "relief".

That's what I've been wondering I thought my father could be a T but now I'm thinking he might of been an F? Definitely thought I saw some Fe (?). Could I be mistaken about this perceived sight of Fe? Maybe he was just showing a soft side that any father would have for his children which seemed an a external expression of his love.

My father wasn't very active *XD*, he loved his naps/downtime and wasn't very physical movement oriented. Definitely wasn't mechanically oriented either, he wasn't the type to have that skill in fixing a car, bathroom installations, sink etc.

Like he may excell and get by to deal with car trouble/sink/installations overall but it just wasn't something that was comfortable. My mother had the natural skill for stuff for more physical repair etc.

My mother would be the one to do all that stuff :O. I know, quite backwards right? .

I'd have to giggle the biggest giggle if my father was a INFP :O. I'm definitely thinking he's at least an INP.

Thank you again Eric for helping me with this .

You're Welcome.
Again, you can see a particular function in anybody, but what determines its place in type is what role it plays. But if you think he's an Fe user, then as a Phlegmatic, he could be ISFJ, Phlegmatic in Inclusion/Melancholy in Control. Otherwise, it does sound like INFP, and any Fe you saw would be oppositional, or perhaps not true Fe.

 

[INFtha14]

Well; I guess that's close enough. (Supine Phlegmatic in Control in the SJ range).

I meant as her primary perception, as opposed to a less mature tertiary Si used to find "relief".


You're Welcome.
Again, you can see a particular function in anybody, but what determines its place in type is what role it plays. But if you think he's an Fe user, then as a Phlegmatic, he could be ISFJ, Phlegmatic in Inclusion/Melancholy in Control. Otherwise, it does sound like INFP, and any Fe you saw would be oppositional, or perhaps not true Fe.

From looking over "introduction to the personality type code" book at the descriptions of Dominant, supporting, and tertiary of Si.

Sounds like she uses Si in a supporting role coupled with a very possible leading Fe. I'd say ESFJ fits pretty good .

I definitely saw a "nostagic" use of his Si similar to how I use mine.

I'd say Melancholy in control but he didn't seem very strong willed and independent from what I got to know of my father.

He seemed to just want to be able to do what he wanted and to do it with as little of a fuss as possible.

I can see this " Expresses very little control over the lives and behaviors of others, and will not tolerate control over his/her life and behavior".

I don't know about highly independent and strong willed. My mother told me how she wanted him to fight and argue with her but he just wouldn't.

She'd complain to him or address something and he'd shrug it off. It seemed he just wanted to simply be and not have much fuss in his day to day life.

From what I hear from my mother he wasn't self motivated, she had to pretty much keep on with him about getting this or doing that.

He'd retreat if any perceived failure was brought *via arguement with mother* to light by going to his room.

He'd be visibly bothered by whatever was addressed but he'd walk away from it in frustration and probably from his ego being bruised.

I've seen this many times and it confused me.

" Becomes angry if confronted for mistakes, criticized or made to look foolish.*

I could see INFP as a very potential possibility as tertiary Si was very evident in his personality from what I saw of him and where we connected *Ne-Si especially*.

I'm thinking phlegmatic-mel for Inclusion.

I felt like he understood me and in alot of my imaginative ways as a kid.
I would think a phlegmatic in control? What do you think from what I say in the above?

 

[Eric B]

OK, so it looks like pure Phlegmatic INFP for your father, and some form of Supine in Inclusion and Affection and Supine Phlegmatic in Control edging into SFJ for your mother.

 

[INFtha14]

OK, so it looks like pure Phlegmatic INFP for your father, and some form of Supine in Inclusion and Ffection and Supine Phlegmatic in Control edging into SFJ for your mother.

Yeah that's what it seems like for both parents.

Thank you Eric B .

 

[lane777]

I took the professional APS test several months ago. For those who care to know how an INFJ scores, here are my results:

Inclusion: Compulsive Melancholy
Control: Supine
Affection: Phlegmatic - Melancholy

I plan on taking the test again (eventually), so whenever that happens, I'll post those results here.

I thought it might be helpful to point out that prior to the test, I tried typing myself and came up with this:

Inclusion: Supine
Control: Phlegmatic
Affection: Phlegmatic (I remember being very confident about this one.)

And I thought I knew myself pretty well ... typing yourself is not a very good alternative to taking the test if you're bent on accuracy.

 

[Venom]

Yes, and this also explains why you bounce between the types you do. Here is the FIRO/APS matrix:

The APS temperaments are in black, and the colorful stuff are the Leo Ryan FIRO names for the score ranges (which differ according to I, C & A, and the boundaries even differ).

Choleric in Inclusion + Phlegmatic in Control = ENFJ;

I guess I'm C-P-???

Choleric in Inclusion is a really nice description of my socializing:

General description of people who are Choleric in Inclusion:

1. Extrovert of a highly selective nature.
2. Approaches many people for association and socialization but actually wants to associate with only a select few.
3. Uses ability to socialize as a screening device, selecting those individuals with whom he/she wishes to associate.
4. Chooses social events that meet her needs and desires.
5. The few people he/she chooses to associate with must meet a criteria that is in his/her mind.
6. Fast-paced -- prefers working at a furious pace.
7. Task-oriented -- relates better to tasks and systems than to people.
8. Tough-minded, strong-willed -- once his/her mind is made up, he/she has a hard time changing it.
9. Needs recognition for accomplishment

However, some parts of Choleric Phlegmatic fit better


Phlegmatic in Control seems perfect:

1. Independent, self-motivated.
2. Expresses a moderate amount of control over the lives and behaviors of others and will allow only a moderate amount of control over his/her life and behavior.
3. Capable of making decisions and taking on responsibilities, but prefers to share responsibilities and decisions rather than doing it alone -- prefers team work.
4. Very democratic -- expects others to work as hard as he/she does and to carry their part of the load.
5. When he/she must take a stand against popular opinion, he/she will attempt to motivate others to take action because he/she lacks the energy to take any real action himself/herself.
6. Uses a "dry" (sometimes witty, often sarcastic) sense of humor as a defense mechanism to prevent others from motivating him/her -- this is to protect his/her low energy reserve.

Im confused between Choleric or Phlegmatic for the "Affection" score. Any tips?

 

[Eric B]

I believe that either C or CP in Inclusion would fit In Charge (ENJ). CP means that you respond more moderately than a regular Choleric. And Phlegmatic in Control is one of the ranges that seems to correspond to NF.
Affection could be anything, and would not really affect the type correlation. That's really Inclusion and Control. I believe it may affect Enneagram wing, however. Like an ENFP 7w8 is probably Choleric in Affection, because he apparently has some Choleric in there somewhere (the 8 wing), and it's not likely the Inclusion (ENP) or Control (NF).

So whichever one between those two fits you better is likely it.

 

[Venom]

I believe that either C or CP in Inclusion would fit In Charge (ENJ). CP means that you respond more moderately than a regular Choleric. And Phlegmatic in Control is one of the ranges that seems to correspond to NF.
Affection could be anything, and would not really affect the type correlation. That's really Inclusion and Control. I believe it may affect Enneagram wing, however. Like an ENFP 7w8 is probably Choleric in Affection, because he apparently has some Choleric in there somewhere (the 8 wing), and it's not likely the Inclusion (ENP) or Control (NF).

So whichever one between those two fits you better is likely it.

well my 9 wing (1w9) leans more phlegmatic I'd guess. Then again, I have some "bow before your master!" qualities in relationships...maybe I am choleric in affection

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, this is all pretty weird.

I had taken the original Five Trait Temperament test and have consistently come up as Melancholy and then almost Phlegmatic being equal, then Supine the obvious but a bit further back third. So I looked at all the MP readings first.

But when I reviewed the temperament types for Inclusion, Control, and Affection on that site, I found I matched up with other patterns... to whit:

Inclusion: Supine-Phlegmatic (SP) ...or Supine (S)
Control: Supine-Phlegmatic (SP) ...or Melancholy-Phlegmatic (MP)
Affection: Supine-Phlegmatic (SP)

For Inclusion, I used to act far more Supine c9oming out of mucked-up childhood but seem to have stabilized at SP.

These are the best fits. With each, there's usually an item or two that isn't quite right.


EXCEPT....

Just for kicks I went to your web page and found one of your tables there, and actually, it makes a lot of sense:

INCLUSION: Who is IN or OUT of the relationship
Supine ("Everybody IN; but you must reach out and invite me!")
+ some Phlegmatic lack of energy ("Take 'em or leave 'em").

Supine really resonates with me here. I just really don't have much desire to keep people away from me and actually want to connect with them... IF they are willing. But if they don't seem interested or don't give me cues that they are interested esp if I do try to initiate things once, I just don't invest more in it... even if I really wanted to be close to them. Phlegmatic = everyone is their own boss = Even if I desire something more, "no apparent interest/cues" means I'll just typically leave them alone. If I'm humming along steadily in a connective mood, I'll actually extend olive branches and leave opportunities to connect... but otherwise will not push things.

In an intimate relationship:
- I get confused if I don't get cues for too long from my SO, and wonder what to do. Nowadays I'll ask though.
- Even when I love someone, I seem to find it easy to just allow things to drift along without forcing a connection. It comes off as indifference, but I don't feel indifferent. I'm just "going along" with what's in place.


CONTROL: Who maintains the POWER and makes the DECISIONS for the relationship
Actually here, I now see much strong MP methodology.
Melancholy ("I don't control you, so please don't try to control me"), that is a BIG part of me
+ Phlegmatic (Democratic; "Let's all be Boss!")... I expect others to chip in their two cents and help make the decisions.

Contrary to what some might think, I really don't like telling others what to do or making them do things. I'd rather they just did it themselves, and let me make my own decisions -- everyone contributes independently. As far as this particular moderation job goes, the best part of my experience has always been being in a position where I can use my energy to help someone else when they bring an issue to attention, plus getting to connect with someone I would not have talked to except that they contacted me. I really don't like having to enforce much or make a lot of decisions on the fly and get frustrated when I have to.

Same for my intimate relationships too.
- I want my SO to not control me, because I don't try to control them.
- I want us to make decisions together about our relationship.

AFFECTION: How emotionally CLOSE or FAR the relationship
Sigh. Yup, Supine ("emotionally CLOSE, but you must reach out to me"),
+ Phlegmatic ("moderate; take it or leave it")

The Phlegmatic makes me invest more and make it "even steven," I don't expect people to read my mind and if I DON'T say something to them, I don't really expect them to extend themselves; but I definitely have that "I want to be close to you" vibe while still need a cue before I can engage and do the "even steven" thing.

In intimate relationships:
- I need the cues, to know they desire me; i want to be close to them but have trouble if I haven't gotten a cue for awhile or things seem like they might have changed.
- As far as physical affection, same thing... take it or leave it, and I can't give more than I feel at the time.

So maybe my code is really SP-MP-SP

 

[Eric B]

Oh, wow. Another fellow Supine after all!:hi:

Sure not Phlegmatic Choleric (at least), in Control (To be the match for NT)? uch:
A pure SP (all three areas, and MP is next to SP) I would think would be an INFP, and you do have the T lowercase, and seem a little bit like an INFP in your personal reflections. So for an INTP to come out as this combo, this would make sense for one apparently more in touch with Feeling.

Wouldn't be an E4 as well, would you? That type struck me as very MP/SP. Perhaps 4w5 or 5w4? I think I remember you as some kind of 5, but I forget.
(And again, this is likely to be far more accurate than the trait list).

well my 9 wing (1w9) leans more phlegmatic I'd guess. Then again, I have some "bow before your master!" qualities in relationships...maybe I am choleric in affection

That's probably just the influence of the Inclusion. That will naturally still come to play in your relationships that are also deep/personal as well.

 

[Totenkindly]

Oh, wow. Another fellow Supine after all!:hi:

Sure not Phlegmatic Choleric (at least), in Control (To be the match for NT)? uch:
A pure SP (all three areas, and MP is next to SP) I would think would be an INFP, and you do have the T lowercase, and seem a little bit like an INFP in your personal reflections. So for an INTP to come out as this combo, this would make sense for one apparently more in touch with Feeling.

I did skim through some of the stuff on your site. (Sorry, I was amazed at the quantity of material you have and hope to read through it -- it's just very "thick" and is going to take me awhile... wow!) So I did see snippets of your discussion on this, the INP/ISF connection, etc., when you did the cross-comparisons between systems.

I guess the big thing with me is that the only amount of control I have ever really expressed is through the Phlegmatic, I have no real Choleric flavor in me at all. I demand control over myself, but I really do not like having control over other people directly; I don't like being a supervisor in a job setting; I don't like being in charge of groups EXCEPT that it allows me to make sure that the strategy/direction is correct... thus a necessary evil. I really like other people to rise to the occasion on their own and be self-directive. The ideal for me would be a community with a shared vision where everyone takes responsible to contribute the most that they can for the good of the group... and thus i'm responsible for me and everyone else can be autonomous as well.

It's like "Informative" taken to the max setting.

Wouldn't be an E4 as well, would you? That type struck me as very MP/SP. Perhaps 4w5 or 5w4? I think I remember you as some kind of 5, but I forget.

Yes, I'm 5w4. EXTREME wing. I always score higher in Five, and the description fits me better than 4w5... but I'm the bare number of points up the scale on Five. The next highest is Nine, and it's not nearly as close as the 4 and 5 are to each other.

I noticed on your chart that you had MP/SP on the Four node... and INP.

... the other thing I'll clarify from my prior post is that I sounded rather casual in my Supine-ish desire to connect? It's not really casual at all. It's one of those "deep pangs" where I feel a void and sense of deep loss if I don't connect with someone... see "sx" variant on the enneagram. I am driving to connect with the "real person" under all the surface stuff. But I also have this extreme sense of autonomy so if someone draws a hard boundary, I will never cross it nor bug them, almost to a fault, aside from an occasion line I will put in the water just so they know I'm open... but inside it hurts like hell, like I chopped off a finger. On the surface, I keep everything casual; inside, everything is very extreme and the two forces have to be intense in order to balance each other.

I feel very much like I've always had two extreme forces warring with each other inside, keeping each other in balance.