[SP] Taking things at face value

[Cimarron]

i've never really realized that reading into things can be so annoying to some people. i thought it was a preference and nothing more. do you guys think it'll be wiser to be more straight up around S's then? would that put them more at ease?

The only time it becomes a "problem" is when we're trying to discuss something serious--for example, if a relationship hangs in the balance. That's the time for both of us to be direct.

When it's just for fun, well, that's up to you. (Where've you been, Animenagai?)


And remember to look at the post before mine! (by Poki)

 

[Mallow]

Hey, in this thread, Viv said:
To me, taking things at face value is actually respecting people. Instead of reading hidden meanings into what people say, I let them speak for themselves, rather than jumping to conclusions or making assumptions. I try to make it clear to people if they want me to know something, they can tell me and I'll take what they say for what it is, and they don't have to think of some clever, mysterious way to say stuff because I don't require that.

I agree, but my first SO didn't and went nuts when I didn't eagerly attempt to decipher every hint and clue they felt I was supposed to.
I just generally assumed that if something was important enough to be a "problem" that it might occur to them to just "say what it was that was bothering them" rather than play an interminable game of "Guess what I'm Thinking; Guess What I'm Feeling and guess what you did or didn't do to cause it".
To me it was just a guessing game until I realized the high cost of guessing incorrectly and then I'd just tell them to "Say it or forget it" because you get too sore when I don't guess it right, which, appropriately led to the blessed demise of that fiasco.

I think people should actually read and comprehend the lines before they start trying to read between the lines and come up with a pile of crap that needs to be shoveled off when all that was there originally was a fly speck to be wiped away.

Now I'm with someone who just says what they feel or think and becomes as irritated with people that expect her to have ESP as I do.
We may seem simple and unsophisticated to the more clairvoyant types but it works for us and we're not changing it.

So there...

 

[raz]

I'm guilty of reading into things too much. For instance, I went to my store yesterday to drop something off and my supervisor stopped to talk to me. She started talking to me about registers having problems, mistakes with people's sales, and not trying to fix problems without calling a manager. She asked me if I did things like that, but when I asked her if she was saying this to me because something that happened, she said, "NO! I'm just telling this to everyone."

Each time she brought up another topic, I asked if it was in response to a situation that came up. She kept getting annoyed because I'd ask her *why* she was telling me this other than just as a "warning." I found out she was just giving this warning to each associate. The whole time, I was just wondering, "What's the point? What caused this? Is there something we can do other than just 'be more careful'? Can't I summarize everything you just said in 10 minutes with 2 sentences?"

 

["?"]

To me, taking things at face value is actually respecting people. Instead of reading hidden meanings into what people say, I let them speak for themselves, rather than jumping to conclusions or making assumptions. I try to make it clear to people if they want me to know something, they can tell me and I'll take what they say for what it is, and they don't have to think of some clever, mysterious way to say stuff because I don't require that.

Or said another way, intuitive types are prone to making assumptions and reading between the lines of that which was not meant. Is it no wonder that Se dominant types are called "realists"? To paraphrase one author on type, "For a Se type, a primrose down by the water is merely a primrose." The Se function allows us to cut to the chase and filter all unnecessary information.

Actually contrary to this assertion, I know SJs who get caught up as well in what I call "going down a garden path" in trying to reach a conclusion because they get caught up in too much detail or lose sight of the immediate situation. Nevertheless intuitive types read between the lines or worse, review some of the threads and count how long it takes before an intuitive gets off topic. I think that as a Se type if I inquire I want an answer and not the babbling of inconsistent thoughts or wondering to a different topic.

 

[King sns]

I hate when I say something that I mean and others try to look into what I said and interpret it. It usually ends up in me being pissed off. I feel like some people can't speak English.

Other person: Something wrong?
Me: I'm tired and my back hurts.
(silence)
other person: whats bothering you?
me: i'm tired and my back hurts.
(silence, I stretch my back)
other person: was it something I said? Did something happen?
me: NO. I'M TIRED AND MY BACK HURTS.

 

[JRT]

I hate when I say something that I mean and others try to look into what I said and interpret it. It usually ends up in me being pissed off. I feel like some people can't speak English.

Other person: Something wrong?
Me: I'm tired and my back hurts.
(silence)
other person: whats bothering you?
me: i'm tired and my back hurts.
(silence, I stretch my back)
other person: was it something I said? Did something happen?
me: NO. I'M TIRED AND MY BACK HURTS.

hahah I used to have this problem with someone I used to work with..they would always ask me whats wrong and then if I would give them a simple "i'm fine" without my whole life story they'd tell everyone who I was working with that I was in a bad mood...which then puts you in a bad mood because you have 50 people coming up and asking you what's wrong lol...thankfully I don't work in an office anymore

 

[Pancreas]

hahah I used to have this problem with someone I used to work with..they would always ask me whats wrong and then if I would give them a simple "i'm fine" without my whole life story they'd tell everyone who I was working with that I was in a bad mood...which then puts you in a bad mood because you have 50 people coming up and asking you what's wrong lol...thankfully I don't work in an office anymore

I hate that. I tend to frown when I’m concentrating so I get the “why are you so grumpy?” a lot. Every time I think this’ll be the time when “well, I’m not grumpy” will actually be interpreted as “well, I’m not grumpy”. Every time I’m wrong.

I tend to make statements that I think will be informative, or ask questions to gain information, that are interpreted incorrectly. Apparently:
“When are we having lunch?” = “Why is lunch not here yet? I’m hungry, damn it. I hate you this is all your fault.”
“There’s no towels left” = “Why are there no towels left????!!! You should have at least five clean towels at all times. I hate you, this is all your fault.”
“What’s the answer to question three?” = “I have no idea what question three is asking me to do, nor any comprehension whatsoever of questions 1-6, in fact, so could you please explain everything from the beginning in really simple terms? (I hate you, this is all your fault.)”

I don’t mind so much if people read into what I say unless they’re consistently wrong, or persistent in their incorrect conclusions.

I don’t like it when people expect me to read between the lines. I’m more likely to pick up on the body language and then ask outright (or ignore, depending on my mood/patience with the whole thing) what they want.

 

[King sns]

To me, taking things at face value is actually respecting people. Instead of reading hidden meanings into what people say, I let them speak for themselves, rather than jumping to conclusions or making assumptions. I try to make it clear to people if they want me to know something, they can tell me and I'll take what they say for what it is, and they don't have to think of some clever, mysterious way to say stuff because I don't require that.

Exactly. Respect that either they've told you the truth or they don't want you to hear the truth.

. Having a conversation with someone who never directly says what they're thinking or feeling can be exhausting, especially if I make a wrong guess and I get blamed for misreading their minds. I jsut sometimes want to ask people like this if it would kill them to just say what they mean right out front, especially if I'm not in the mood for guessing games. (And unlike the responders on the NF thread, I'm not going around claiming that everyone in my life whom I've identified as an NF or an NT is annoying like that.)

Terribly exhausting!

Ha. Awesome.
What about hurt feelings? Is that an issue? Sometimes when I'm dealing with SFPs and SFJs who, like you, don't like to search through lots of unspoken communication, I worry about hurting their feelings. Sometimes when people want me to be more direct, it almost seems like that is not what they want at all if the direct statement is unkind.

Being direct does not equal being unkind. You can just say things in a nicer way using better wording that still clearly gets your point across.

The older I get and the more I understand people, I don't mind being taken at face value but I cannot stand is when someone takes what is on the surface and refuses to alter their views when given further information.

Example I am deep in thought over something, distracted.

"WHy are you so sad today?"
"I'm not sad, just preoccupied with something."
"Well, you look sad."
"Well, I am not, I am fine. Just thinking about something."
"You look sad, cheer up!"

and on and on!

I don't mind other people wanting me to spell out my needs or wants, what I don't like is when they won't accept what I am saying because they cannot imagine that anyone would have a different perspective or reaction than they do.

Yea, thats just dumb. That's not taking things at face-value at all, actually. The person (real or made up) missed the part when you said you were preoccupied with something.

this is quite interesting. a lot of times i feel that my SFP friends were better than me at reading people, but i guess they can be reading signs, while i was reading vibes. one of my friends is a psych major too, so i guess he can deviate from the norm .

i've never really realized that reading into things can be so annoying to some people. i thought it was a preference and nothing more. do you guys think it'll be wiser to be more straight up around S's then? would that put them more at ease?

Yes, saying what you mean, or atleast giving enough information can make us feel more at ease. You don't have to spell everything out for us either. (atleast not for me). But a totally vague zero-information conversation based on vibes, vague statements and visual cues is extremely annoying. Its not that we can't read your cues or your vibes. actually I think we are quite good at it, since we're so observant. It just can be tiring when the entire conversation could have moved forward faster if you had just said what you meant in the first place.

 

[anainani]

Reading from this thread, I still don't really understand what NF's/NT's mean when they say that SP's take things at face value too much. What is it exactly that we don't pick up on? Is it the non-verbal cues, feelings? Because I am quite good at picking up on those. It's actually one thing I consider myself really good at. Especially with people I know well, I'm quite good at telling the mood, feelings. I always keep an open mind on everything, and I could never claim that I know what someone is exactly feeling/thinking/what's going on with them , but I do pick up on the overall moods/vibes. I dont jump to conclusions or anything, and I just ask them. If they tell me, they tell me, if not, not. I won't bother them with it. Again, if I feel like they kinda want to be bothered a little bit, I will.
If they tell me that nothing's wrong, I'll just have to take their word for it, even if it doesn't feel like nothing's wrong. I just tell them if they want to talk about something, they can. If something's wrong, usually people come and talk to me at some point later on.
All this sounds kinda fruity I guess I guess I can get annoying with all the feelingy stuff, but no one's complained.

I like bluntness and when people are straightforward. It's just sometimes tiring for me and unnecessary, from my point of view, to say what you say but don't really mean, and even though you kind of mean it, you really don't, but you want me to know that you don't really mean it, so that I'd know what it ws that you didn't mean, and figure out what it was that you really meant in the first place.

Sure, I understand, it's interesting and very pleasurable for people. It is for me too, once in a while. I usually try to understand the in-between the lines stuff, although it probably might take me some more time than for intuitives.
I think everyone would want to be understood without having to explain things, or just by saying one sentence. Trust me, I wish it was like that, because I'm not the best talker, and I don't like to talk about my feelings/deep thoughts that much, I'd rather prefer to just feel/think. But it's just not possible to know what someone thinks/feels exactly. Even if you think you do, you can't know it completely unless they tell you. I don't know how a very developed intuition works. I'm sure it can be very accurate, but you still need to find out for sure through some communication means, don't you?

So, what is it excactly that we don't pick up on? Is it metaphor, sarcasm, hidden meanings (like why things are the way they are, refusing to look further beyond the facts), feelings, non-verbal cues, smart and pretentious vocabulary?
I'm just interested.

 

[alicia91]

I find that some types just assume too much and therefore don't pay enough attention to the subtle signals. My ENTJ husband for example. Perfect example - last night we flew home from Florida and there was an older lady in the aisle seat, my husband in the middle, and I had the window seat. This lady talked a lot about everything, asked my husband a million questions and he loved the conversation. Meanwhile I had my head buried in a book and had only said a polite hello to her. He kept whispering to me 'why are you being so rude?' I said that I was just interested in my book. The lady asked eventually asked for his business card and as we were landing wanted him to attend some sort of tele-conference for her business which was Amway(or something similar). SUCKER!!! I would have had my guard up to her a long time ago but he just made the assumption that she was just a lonely old lady. baa haa haa

So assumptions are often wrong, therefore what you read into it - wrong. Meanwhile I read the signals that I see.

 

[Athenian200]

Instead of reading hidden meanings into what people say, I let them speak for themselves, rather than jumping to conclusions or making assumptions. I try to make it clear to people if they want me to know something, they can tell me and I'll take what they say for what it is, and they don't have to think of some clever, mysterious way to say stuff because I don't require that.

But it's probably true that sensing means you'd rather take people for their word than have to listen to a bunch of vaguely worded hints and spend time trying to decipher the real message behind them. Having a conversation with someone who never directly says what they're thinking or feeling can be exhausting, especially if I make a wrong guess and I get blamed for misreading their minds. I jsut sometimes want to ask people like this if it would kill them to just say what they mean right out front, especially if I'm not in the mood for guessing games.

But anyone who really wants to know beyond that, we also tend to be some of the most open people I think, not about hidden agendas or manipulation. Well, unless we're messing with somebody.

Totally. I'm not a mind reader. Tell me what you want me to know and let's go from there, trying to beat around the bush or give me a verbal treasure map to try to locate the gold, and I'm liable to tune you out.

I have better things to do with my time than to sit here and try to contemplate what may or may not be going on inside your head and how it possibly affects me.

She got sick of me not being able to read her mind, and I got sick of her trying to get me to.

i hate it when people read between the lines.

it is not that i am not aware of the possible meaning behind what someone is said, it is that i hate it when people assume things and so i dont do that to others.

i also believe that clear and to-the-point communication is the most efficient, it is easier to just say what you mean. otherwise, you are placing a responsibility on the other person to "figure you out", why should they have to do that exactly?

I'm not going to understand your needs on a deeper non-verbal level unless I just make lucky guesses about things that are pretty universal."

At least in the sense that I say what I mean, I don't try to bury in it a bunch of cryptic stuff. Over and over again, people seem to try to read things into it that aren't there.

If I know the person I'm talking to is one of those who talks in cryptic ways, then I'm going to try to interpret them if it's someone I care about understanding. But no, I'm not very good at it. I have learned to pick up on some things just from experience, but it seems like many times I make assumptions, they are wrong, and I just make it worse.

In which case, I feel it's unfair to be called on the carpet for being "wrong", because I never wanted to play what I feel are pointless mind-guessing games in the first place.

I tend to be more present-oriented, and not always going around looking for patterns in everything.

If I sculpt a basic dog out of clay and you went and added teeth, fur, eyes, etc. its now your creation not mine.

I agree, but my first SO didn't and went nuts when I didn't eagerly attempt to decipher every hint and clue they felt I was supposed to.
To me it was just a guessing game until I realized the high cost of guessing incorrectly and then I'd just tell them to "Say it or forget it" because you get too sore when I don't guess it right, which, appropriately led to the blessed demise of that fiasco.

I think people should actually read and comprehend the lines before they start trying to read between the lines and come up with a pile of crap that needs to be shoveled off when all that was there originally was a fly speck to be wiped away.

Now I'm with someone who just says what they feel or think and becomes as irritated with people that expect her to have ESP as I do.
We may seem simple and unsophisticated to the more clairvoyant types but it works for us and we're not changing it.

I hate when I say something that I mean and others try to look into what I said and interpret it. It usually ends up in me being pissed off.

:blushing:



Does it suddenly feel hot in here to anyone else?

I have a feeling these people would not like me... at all.

Think carefully about Ni while reading the quoted statements...

 

[King sns]

:blushing:



Does it suddenly feel hot in here to anyone else?

I have a feeling these people would not like me... at all.

No, I like almost anyone, actually. Its some traits I don't like. If you were acting this way, you might make me mad momentarily. but overall I would still like ya, i'm sure!!

Don't hide. We're really not that mean. We're just venting frustrations.

 

[Athenian200]

No, I like almost anyone, actually. Its some traits I don't like. If you were acting this way, you might make me mad momentarily. but overall I would still like ya, i'm sure!!

Don't hide. We're really not that mean. We're just venting frustrations.

I know, I guess that's right. But... seriously. Read the quoted statements again... and try to imagine how you'd feel if you lived in this world:

Ni- Introverted iNtuiting

Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

Don't you see? You all basically said, in not so many words... that you don't like Ni at all. True, you didn't say it directly... but can you really deny that the trend indicates that? I admit that I might be wrong, reading too much into it... but it seems like a pretty strong impression.

Of course, I guess I could concede that not liking Ni doesn't necessarily translate to not liking NJs.

 

[King sns]

Don't you see? You all basically said, in not so many words... that you don't like Ni at all. True, you didn't say it directly... but can you really deny that the trend indicates that? I admit that I might be wrong, reading too much into it... but it seems like a pretty strong impression.

Yes, I do admit, the Ni-ness is a little fishy in my world. Actually, when you post the description like that it makes me realize more that its a preference, not a flaw. Its just a foreign language to us, I guess.

Sometimes I read threads that are anti-Se in a way. I can't think of an example. But I feel like saying. "hey guys. I can't help it!!" (even if its not directed at me.)

 

[Athenian200]

Yes, I do admit, the Ni-ness is a little fishy in my world. Actually, when you post the description like that it makes me realize more that its a preference, not a flaw. Its just a foreign language to us, I guess.

That makes sense to me.

Sometimes I read threads that are anti-Se in a way. I can't think of an example. But I feel like saying. "hey guys. I can't help it!!" (even if its not directed at me.)

Yes, yes. I think I know how you feel... especially the "even if it's not directed at me" part.

I'm honestly a little ashamed to admit that I went along with some of those threads even though part of me probably knew there really wasn't anything that bad about Se... not out of frustration, but because I didn't want to alienate the people who did believe that, draw frustration and accusations onto myself or break up their enjoyment of casting aspersions on the exaggerated image, and because it was a comfortable belief to entertain (at least until I was forced to deal with the negative implications of believing it), considering how clumsy I am with Se situations. I didn't want be the one to draw the attention to myself by pointing out the elephant in the room, I guess.

Now that I know how it feels... I'm sorry I remained silent and went along with it.

I read some of that stuff I wrote now and wonder what I was thinking... I guess it was something like "There are hardly any SPs around here, it's not like anyone's actually going to be affected by this." I failed to foresee that SPs might actually show up and read that stuff (back then there were only two, and everyone thought they were Ns anyway). I never would have said it or gone along with it if I had thought they would.

 

[King sns]

That makes sense to me.


Yes, yes. I think I know how you feel... especially the "even if it's not directed at me" part.

I'm honestly a little ashamed to admit that I went along with some of those threads even though part of me probably knew there really wasn't anything that bad about Se... not out of frustration, but because I didn't want to alienate the people who did believe that, draw frustration and accusations onto myself or break up their enjoyment of casting aspersions on the exaggerated image, and because it was a comfortable belief to entertain, considering how clumsy I am with Se situations. I didn't want be the one to draw the attention to myself by pointing out the elephant in the room, I guess.

Now that I know how it feels... I'm sorry I remained silent and went along with it.

I don't think theres anything wrong with voicing frustrations about certain traits that people have. I've said this before, somewhere else. Actually, realizing that something bothers you might be the first step to overcoming your irritation and understanding it. As long as you keep an open mind and don't use personal attacks. All the threads that are in frustration of one of my personal traits don't really phase me anymore. Its just people venting.

 

[raz]

This is a psychology forum after all. I'm glad the rules on venting here are much more lax because of that.

 

[Anja]

There you go, short. Sometimes what bothers me in someone else is a trait that needs some polishing in myself. Or something that I don't understand. Old residue from family of origin stuff. Those gifts that parents give can linger for a long time.

 

[Anja]

That makes sense to me.


Yes, yes. I think I know how you feel... especially the "even if it's not directed at me" part.

I'm honestly a little ashamed to admit that I went along with some of those threads even though part of me probably knew there really wasn't anything that bad about Se... not out of frustration, but because I didn't want to alienate the people who did believe that, draw frustration and accusations onto myself or break up their enjoyment of casting aspersions on the exaggerated image, and because it was a comfortable belief to entertain (at least until I was forced to deal with the negative implications of believing it), considering how clumsy I am with Se situations. I didn't want be the one to draw the attention to myself by pointing out the elephant in the room, I guess.

Now that I know how it feels... I'm sorry I remained silent and went along with it.

I read some of that stuff now and wonder what I was thinking... I guess it was something like "There are hardly any SPs around here, it's not like anyone's actually going to be affected by this." I failed to foresee that SPs might actually show up and read that stuff. I never would have said it if I had thought they would.

This is nice to hear, Athenian. We live and learn.

There were a couple people here who were annoying to me at first with their tiresome trolling and some of them I've gotten to know better and have decided they were not what they were trying to appear at the time. Foolish on their part, but a common mistake for all and I've gone through that stage of figuring myself out as well.

Some, I think, are young and inexperienced in the social world and need to feel the support of others who are the same in order to feel secure. Maybe they don't realize that they are seeking support in the wrong place and that those who attack are likely to also attack them some day. No wonder there's such a lack of trust for our more aggressive posters!

Maybe also that we all desire to belong, and if we think we might not, the best defense is a good offense. When in truth it works against us to try to look tough and self-sufficient. For a more experienced person the facade can be easily seen through and calls out feelings of scorn and pity. Not something a "tough" person wants, I'm sure.

Mob mentality is ugly and stoopid and easy to get caught up in for fear of not belonging. I thought some of those people must be the dumbest people I'd ever come across! But that wasn't the case. I judged them by their facade, not the real them.

And I have been on the receiving end of going against the group when they are doing something which is wrong in my values system. So I recognize the fear of the inevitable backlash which will usually come.

But it no longer daunts me. Right is right. It's got to be in line with what you personally believe is right. Not what others think. If you seek to hurt others you're walking a path full of stumbling spots. Time proves that out.

Doing what my values system tells me is the right thing keeps me solid in my self-identity. Practice makes perfect! (Well. . . Almost.)

 

[anainani]

Athenian, I don't have a problem with Ni/Ne. If anything, I'm just trying to understand it. I think Intuitives are awesome, there are lots of things that are amazing about N's.
But yea, I've noticed some negativity towards S's on this site. I don't know why it is so, maybe it could be that some of N's feel misunderstood, or not understood at all by S's. Or N's just don't find anything in common with us. I dunno.