Sudden Ni/Ne bewilderment...

[nightning]

nightning - I was very busy and my mind was elsewhere for most of the weekend, so I didn't really focus in on your words as much as I could have, the first read-through!

I value your thoughts... but I was just rambling myself. There's no need to concentrate on any of it!

I also think I'm Ni dominant (simply put, I'm in my head quite a lot!), but Ne is right up there too. As for me personally, my Fi is quite high, which I don't think is typical of an INFJ. But all things considered, I think my cognitive behavior towards others is rather Fe.

Sometimes I wonder if INFJs as a group are more variable than the other types or if the INFJs gathered here on the forum are "atypical". I read through Sub's handwriting analysis for you... and many of his comments apply to me as well. Especially the part about wanting contact but unconsciously erecting barriers to push people away.

I also wonder myself whether INFP in general is more comfortable just being who they are without abandon, and not caring so much what others think of them - i.e. more comfortable in taking things as they are, 'rolling with it', not pushing things, letting things happen of their own accord, very conscious of their own vision....whereas INFJ is maybe more concerned of others' perceptions of them, and have a stronger external need for acceptance and validation from others?

The Fi vs Fe difference. I haven't interacted with that many INFs, but that is certainly my take on things as well. INFPs give me the impression that if they believe, then things are going to work out. I find it difficult to sit passively. My mind starts to analyze the situation... is there any little thing I can do to make a favorable outcome more likely to occur.

I also wonder whether INFJ's in general tend to *analyze* situations more so than INFP's; and get caught up in the details maybe?

It could be the tertiary Ti in INFJs... nothing more than pure speculations on my part though.

I have an affinity for INFJ's in real life...somehow we find each other. ;-) I have a hard time articulating how we're all quite similar - but I think it has to do with our thought processes, and our openness to ideas and openness to possibilities, and seeing multiple perspectives and not being caught in just one mindset, or just one way of viewing a person, a situation, an external event....having a more fluid internal process, I suppose...we may not have all the same specific beliefs, but HOW we think and communicate and interact with others and perceive the world/people is VERY much the same.

You're very lucky then. I know of only one potential INFJ. But the way our thinking fits together is very comforting. It doesn't matter how badly you worded something, the other person always understands.

Note to Tovlo:
Maybe you should try this... which type in general do you find easier to interact with? Or rather who understands you better. That might provide more clues in understanding yourself.

And finally, we can 'blend' pretty easily into a system, and figure out how it works and how everyone interacts and thus what we need to do to mesh into it. ... I think this is tied to both being very intuitive to other peoples' personalities/needs, and being Fe - the acceptance/fitting in/pleasing others thing I've fallen into that pattern - being who I knew the person I was with wanted me to be. It's something I haven't done recently, and I don't intend to do it anymore in the future, as I don't think it's really a good/real/true thing and it basically negates the self, but there you have it. My INFJ friends and I are also very honest - but there is a time and place for everything, if that makes sense...it's rather person-specific in terms of how to deliver the message, or whether not to deliver it at all (and typically we will only express our true thoughts/opinions if our opinion is asked for. ... An INFP told my INFJ friend that she was "Absurdly honest." I have gotten similar comments regarding myself - being honest and open, to the point of it on occasion being received harshly if the party doesn't like the message. Of course it's a very delicate balance - knowing how to present the message in a loving/constructive manner, when to, if it's appropriate/necessary, etc.....

I identify with everything you said... specifically what's bolded. The darn Fe just can't say no to people. Changing to adapt is good, but losing self identity is another issue. I found INFPs don't have this problem at all. As to honesty... it's one of the reasons people like talking to me about issues. I'll always tell them the truth.

 

[anii]

Just back to thinking I'm INFJ with tinges of INFP expression, wondering about how or why that manifests in me, and about how the mechanism of type as thus far understood by me still seems inadequate description.

Hmmm... it could be that spending lots of quality time with a strong INFP is rubbing off on you?



Seriously, I've noticed that I appreciate structure more now that I've spent time with an INFJ, and he (the INFJ) seems to appreciate spontaneity a little more now - but only just a little - than he used to. I think there's something to be said about subtle changes/interactions/mutual influence of type expression when alone vs. when in community.

 

[TenebrousReflection]

Well, I'd have to get to know you better first... but you don't seem like an INFP (or at least the sort of people I've pegged as INFP's). You might be an INTP, an INFJ, or less likely an INTJ. (sometimes they can be hard to tell apart at first online, if they're well rounded enough.)

Thanks, I do think Fi is the process I relate most to, but I also relate to Ni, Ne and Ti, so the crossover blur makes sense. Mostly curious how others see me from my posts etc.

Anyway, I have a question for you... and maybe tovlo. Can you decide to simply believe some thing is true because you want it to be, or do you have to have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing it? A lot of times INFP's can just believe in something in a way I can't. I don't know if all of them are like that, but they seem to tend in that direction. INFJ's still seem idealistic, but more... aware. Does that make sense?

I can beleive soemthing is true without any rational reason for the belief, but its nearly always the sort of thing where I say something like "this is what my heart tells me, so I'll believe it until something proves its wrong". Those sort of beliefs are actually something I associate with Ni. A vision thats so clear to me that I just trust it to be true (vision is not the right word since it doesnt realy have images, its more of a "feeling based" knowing of what is/could be and believing its true and worth pursuing). I associate those with Ni because there is no exploration that leads to it, it just arives, is there and gives me a feeling of certainty about something.

Yes, Fi is an internal framework. Ni is perspectives. That's similar to what I was conveying, only I think you did a better job. The idea you convey in your signature "Just because they're not on the road you're on..." is something I don't think an INFP could "get".
--

People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost.

Actually that makes perfect sense to me. Its the basics of type theory that each type values different things and its important to understand what someone values if you want to understand them. Now where there is some truth to your words is that I find it hard to imagine how someone can be happy from traveling those other paths, but I do recognize that for them its the right path.

 

[TenebrousReflection]

I agree there seems to be some subtle difference. My sense of INFP's is that the process for them is more about fitting external information into an already existing framework until the information that "fits" is found. My experience is more like building a framework that makes sense around the information I've been able to gather.

Hmmm, let me try to think of an example that shows how I might use the process (I think this is what you are describing for INFP, but I'm not certain)...

I imagine a conversation.
I imagine the ideas I want to talk about.
I imagine what I might say
- I imagine several responses to those words and determine which is most probably, what the worst case migth be and what the best case might be.
I imagine a different way to say the same thing and repeat above process.
When I reach a point where I have a positive probable outcome, I will explore the idea further looking for flaws and negative side effects (are there implications I did not first consider etc), I may either just stop there, or I may continue exploring the topic until I think I have a better probable outcome

Here again, I do think there's perhaps a slight and very subtle difference. (maybe...not sure) My sense is that many INFP's I have encountered actually have a tendency toward a bit more of an active disposition in terms of believing people need their insight in order to see the answer clearly. They seem to believe the answer is in the other person, but the other person is in need of their enlightenment in order to find what the INFP knows already is the answer. I admit that I've felt this tendency as invasive and disempowering. But I know my tendency is toward much more passive engagement. I'm only there to offer information and perspective and once offered, I pretty much walk away from engagement with what the receiver decides to do with that information. I have a sense of ease generally that they'll know better than I would how much to value the perspective and insights I can offer and my sense of unease would come from feeling I may have imposed my view too strongly into their experience and in that imposition may have potentially misled them away from finding the true answer resting within.

I don't know if my approach is actually common to INFJ's though, I just know it seems different from what I sense in many INFP's.

There are times I feel like that. yes. If/when I see a case where I think somethign is obvious to me but not to the person that would benefit from it, I do have a strong temptation to try to help them however I can, and in cases like that, if its important enough for immediate action, its also usually important enough to try to be direct about it, but those are usualy rare cases where I don't think a normal conversation could lead them to the understanding that would help them (at least without frustrating them in the process of trying to get them there that way).

Its when the person realizes they need help, but does not know what they are looking for (a case I've been in often as the one looking for solutions but needing help to find them) that I am refering to where I think exploration of ideas is the best option to find the answers from within. This may be an example of the flaws of the golden rule where doing unto others what you would have them do for you may not be whats best for all involved (I find the method I use/prefer seems to either help or frustrate others without a lot of middle ground).

 

[INTJMom]

I can't just belive something is true because I want it to be. I must have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing in it. Now I may expend great effort creating a framework of reason that feels acceptable to me so that I can believe in something I want to believe in, but if I can't make that framework work out in a way that makes sense to me, I can't just toss the framework aside and say I believe in it anyway. It has to make sense or I feel ungrounded.

I read an excellent comparison of the two this morning. It's here:
Intuition