[MBTI General] STJ's-Crying/seeing people upset

[Fidelia]

Leaving for somewhere private to indulge in emotion is a general SJ thing I think.

Wow - I never knew that as a whole SJs feel that way. That's helpful to be aware of.

I'm not a huggy person generally, but there has been the odd occasion with my SJ female vice-principal where she has given me a motherly hug when I am at the end of my string (we were in a very high stress school environment) and once when she actually admitted she was having a terrible day (the only time in five years of knowing her) and I hugged her. It wasn't teary though and maybe that's the difference.

How are you guys with good-byes? Do you avoid them generally? When I said good-bye just now to my ESTJ ex after five years (we were moving in opposite directions across the country), he gave me a long hug and then said, "Well...it's been a long five years". Odd to say after being through hell and highwater. However, it was obvious that he meant more and wasn't comfortable saying it. When it came down to the actual time everyone was leaving though, he made a point of not being in the staffroom and of avoiding anyone who had mattered to him a lot before taking off in his car. I'm guessing even if things were awkward with me, they wouldn't have had to have been with the other people he had spent time with.

 

[Shadow]

How are you guys with good-byes? Do you avoid them generally? When I said good-bye just now to my ESTJ ex after five years (we were moving in opposite directions across the country), he gave me a long hug and then said, "Well...it's been a long five years". Odd to say after being through hell and highwater. However, it was obvious that he meant more and wasn't comfortable saying it.

That seems familiar. I personally find that sort of thing very awkward. I mean more but I'm too embarrassed to emote! I don't know why I think it's shameful.
I always feel guilty for not telling my dad I love him on the phone. He says it to me and I'm like "Yep." Hopefully he knows me enough to see through my tough exterior!

 

[EJCC]

Wow - I never knew that as a whole SJs feel that way. That's helpful to be aware of.

I'm not sure if that's true for SFJs - especially ESFJs. Somebody should start a thread about that to see if it's true.

How are you guys with good-byes? Do you avoid them generally? When I said good-bye just now to my ESTJ ex after five years (we were moving in opposite directions across the country), he gave me a long hug and then said, "Well...it's been a long five years". Odd to say after being through hell and highwater. However, it was obvious that he meant more and wasn't comfortable saying it. When it came down to the actual time everyone was leaving though, he made a point of not being in the staffroom and of avoiding anyone who had mattered to him a lot before taking off in his car. I'm guessing even if things were awkward with me, they wouldn't have had to have been with the other people he had spent time with.

I suck at goodbyes. That anecdote really resonates with me. The reason why I'm like that is that I don't have the words to express how I'm feeling in deep moments like that, and when I try to come up with them, they seem, to me, to be stupid and cliched.* Also, I completely agree with shadow, 100%.

One of my ex-housemates was an ESTJ and she was definitely more emotional than me. It was still hidden, but you'd know what she was feeling... although sadness less so. I think she was fine with emotions except ones that made her seem too vulnerable. There always seemed to be something frustrating her Is that just her or an ESTJ thing?

I'm fine with positive emotions, but it's the ones that make me cry, or the ones that would force me to "open up", that I have a problem with. So in that respect, it's not just her. But I dunno about the "always something frustrating her" thing. Is it because she was always telling stories about things that frustrated her throughout the day? Or was it just a vibe she gave off? If it was a vibe, that's just her. If it was telling stories, that's ESTJs wanting to vent and be entertaining at the same time. (And ESTJs not having any good stories to tell that DON'T involve frustrating things.) Often, some of the frustration that I give off when I'm venting is amplified for show purposes. I tend to rant about things that really didn't piss me off enough for the ranting to make sense, but that sound very entertaining to the people I'm talking to.


*yet another double standard that doesn't mean to offend.

 

[entropie]

Wow - I never knew that as a whole SJs feel that way. That's helpful to be aware of.

What did you think ? Them to be NT robots ? Far off

 

[/DG/]

I'm not sure if that's true for SFJs - especially ESFJs. Somebody should start a thread about that to see if it's true.

I think ESFJ's are way more open about their emotions. Not sure about ISFJ's though.

 

[Shadow]

I think ESFJ's are way more open about their emotions. Not sure about ISFJ's though.

I don't think ISFJs are...unless they feel very hurt, and around people they feel are 'secure' enough for them to show their vulnerability. They seem to be able to show happiness more than the ISTJ, and are quick to smile.
They're probably better at the 'goodbye situation' referred to above, put it that way. But nowhere near as open as the ESFJ.

I think ESFJs are completely different. I can't even believe I share two key letters with them because we seem on such a different wavelength.

 

[/DG/]

I know. It seems as if their dominant Fe makes them totally different. :/

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I'm not sure if that's true for SFJs - especially ESFJs. Somebody should start a thread about that to see if it's true.


I suck at goodbyes. That anecdote really resonates with me. The reason why I'm like that is that I don't have the words to express how I'm feeling in deep moments like that, and when I try to come up with them, they seem, to me, to be stupid and cliched.* Also, I completely agree with shadow, 100%.


I'm fine with positive emotions, but it's the ones that make me cry, or the ones that would force me to "open up", that I have a problem with. So in that respect, it's not just her. But I dunno about the "always something frustrating her" thing. Is it because she was always telling stories about things that frustrated her throughout the day? Or was it just a vibe she gave off? If it was a vibe, that's just her. If it was telling stories, that's ESTJs wanting to vent and be entertaining at the same time. (And ESTJs not having any good stories to tell that DON'T involve frustrating things.) Often, some of the frustration that I give off when I'm venting is amplified for show purposes. I tend to rant about things that really didn't piss me off enough for the ranting to make sense, but that sound very entertaining to the people I'm talking to.

So true!

 

[EJCC]

So true!

It actually works pretty well. A lot of people (e.g. INFJs) will rant at you to try to get you as riled up as them (or at least, that's my impression), and that really, REALLY annoys me. What if I want to stay detached and objective?? When I rant at people, I try to make them laugh, by being over the top. By exaggerating my emotions, I downplay them, and make fun of them, which makes it easier to say things that, when said straight, might make me feel vulnerable.
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[NewEra]

Wow - I never knew that as a whole SJs feel that way. That's helpful to be aware of.

I don't know if it's a general SJ thing, but I feel that way many times, maybe it's the Fi.

How are you guys with good-byes? Do you avoid them generally? When I said good-bye just now to my ESTJ ex after five years (we were moving in opposite directions across the country), he gave me a long hug and then said, "Well...it's been a long five years". Odd to say after being through hell and highwater. However, it was obvious that he meant more and wasn't comfortable saying it. When it came down to the actual time everyone was leaving though, he made a point of not being in the staffroom and of avoiding anyone who had mattered to him a lot before taking off in his car. I'm guessing even if things were awkward with me, they wouldn't have had to have been with the other people he had spent time with.

Yeah, I usually try to get goodbye's over and done with on the actual day. Generally I don't like them, especially if it involves people I like leaving. It's like... I gotta get this sadness of people leaving over and done with before it is prolonged.

 

[Fidelia]

It actually works pretty well. A lot of people (e.g. INFJs) will rant at you to try to get you as riled up as them (or at least, that's my impression), and that really, REALLY annoys me. What if I want to stay detached and objective?? When I rant at people, I try to make them laugh, by being over the top. By exaggerating my emotions, I downplay them, and make fun of them, which makes it easier to say things that, when said straight, might make me feel vulnerable.
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I think that INFJs rant mostly to get the extra emotion that they are feeling done with so they can get on with things. Then when ESTJs try to tell them it's not so bad as all that, they also feel that they have to convince the person of why what they are feeling is valid and not that they are just being babies about it. They get an even bigger shot of emotion overload because they feel that the person they care about most is not sympathetic to them and is defending everyone else except them. (eg they don't feel you are just being neutral or detached). I agree though that we do rant!

The second part though, I never thought of as being a way to downplay the vulnerability that negative feelings bring when said straight out. I just have always reacted to what seems like over the top and frequent displays of negative things that frustrate them because other people don't always understand that it's being played up for effect. Because I try to suck up as much of the negative emotion I feel without complaint and when I do, I don't feel supported, I get mad at the ESTJs I know that "complain" all the time. That helps me to see it in a different way.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, I usually try to get goodbye's over and done with on the actual day. Generally I don't like them, especially if it involves people I like leaving. It's like... I gotta get this sadness of people leaving over and done with before it is prolonged.

Do you ever think about it again after it's over and done with, or do you avoid it even in your mind? Is this a matter of the social awkwardness of emotion in front of the other person, or the discomfort that emotional feelings bring to you personally?

I think the problem comes in when those people that care dearly for you feel that you don't return that feeling because nothing is expressed in words or in parting actions that would indicate that the relationship mattered. It's like allowing them to see what matters most to you and the vulnerability you don't share with anyone else and the other person glancing over and walking on by whistling, without even pausing. It feels like not only an uneven exchange, but also a rude rejection of the regard you have for them. It wouldn't take a big display of emotion, but something whether written, spoken or done out of the ordinary that says that the friendship or relationship mattered to them too.

 

[EJCC]

I hope you don't mind if I answer this...

Do you ever think about it again after it's over and done with, or do you avoid it even in your mind?

I avoid it in my mind. After a big goodbye (or an avoidance of one), I push it out of my mind. There have been plenty of those moments in my life, and I can't remember a single one of them at the moment, which proves my point.

Is this a matter of the social awkwardness of emotion in front of the other person, or the discomfort that emotional feelings bring to you personally?

It's... not wanting to open up. It's the discomfort of the emotions. Honestly, it doesn't matter much who's around, because when you're having a big one-on-one moment with someone, everyone else disappears from your mind. (Or at least, they should; it isn't polite to butt into someone's private moment at a social gathering. And as long as they don't mention it afterwards, or act differently towards you, it's as if they didn't see it, so there's no problem.) But goodbyes are such emotional moments. It's not a lot of fun. It's the sort of emotional situation that I would rather avoid than go through... which is definitely not a good thing. But I try not to avoid goodbyes anymore.

I think the problem comes in when those people that care dearly for you feel that you don't return that feeling because nothing is expressed in words or in parting actions that would indicate that the relationship mattered. It's like allowing them to see what matters most to you and the vulnerability you don't share with anyone else and the other person glancing over and walking on by whistling, without even pausing. It feels like not only an uneven exchange, but also a rude rejection of the regard you have for them. It wouldn't take a big display of emotion, but something whether written, spoken or done out of the ordinary that says that the friendship or relationship mattered to them too.

Yeah... that sounds like a good idea. It's just that, you know, when I try to say goodbye to someone, it ends up being like the example you shared, where the words spoken don't really reflect the intensity of the emotions at all, and you feel like you said something dumb, because of how much of an understatement it was. So it's embarrassing either way, really, and I don't handle embarrassment well at all.

 

[substitute]

When I rant at people, I try to make them laugh, by being over the top. By exaggerating my emotions, I downplay them, and make fun of them, which makes it easier to say things that, when said straight, might make me feel vulnerable.

Yes, I think most ExTx's would relate to that. It's the only way you'll be informed of my negative emotions, and if you "disallow" it, then you'll get one of two situations: I'll shut you out completely, or you'll get them in a way you didn't want to, since there's a conversion process in the mind that turns all negative emotions into anger, given time, so if I'm to express them "nakedly", it will scare the shit out of you and make you cry. And I think this applies to STJ's as well - at least, when I've talked about it with my ISTJ, he's said he relates.

 

[Fidelia]

Yes, I think most ExTx's would relate to that. It's the only way you'll be informed of my negative emotions, and if you "disallow" it, then you'll get one of two situations: I'll shut you out completely, or you'll get them in a way you didn't want to, since there's a conversion process in the mind that turns all negative emotions into anger, given time, so if I'm to express them "nakedly", it will scare the shit out of you and make you cry. And I think this applies to STJ's as well - at least, when I've talked about it with my ISTJ, he's said he relates.

I never knew that! My ESTJ would either complain way over the top or else swear that there was nothing that bothered him, which I knew couldn't be true and was probably affecting how we related. I needed to air things bothering me and he needed to not do it, or would do it in such a devastating way it wasn't useful. This helps put things in better perspective.

How do you navigate interpersonal interactions without actually venting negative emotions for the most part? I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I just can't imagine what it would be like. If someone would not allow me to occasionally express those things, I would be like a pressure cooker and would blow to some poor unsuspecting person.

 

[Fidelia]

EJCC - Do all the things you have avoided in your mind just disappear completely, or are they there waiting for you if you opened the door to that room?

With the goodbye thing - would putting your words in writing seem even extra emotional, or would it help distance the awkwardness/embarrassment of those feelings for you?

With discomfort discussing conflict, or people showing emotion in front of you, being reluctant to show emotion in front of them, and avoidance of good-byes, how do you then let people know that they really matter to you? For me, those kinds of things are the primary ways that I would let people know that the relationship matters to me and that I care about them. I think that is why some people respond in a very hostile way after awhile to the STJ that they love (I've seen this happen a lot of times). They just feel really rejected by them in every way. They also then interpret making a nice meal or something like that as taking the easy way out instead of giving what is really needed. Is this just an impossibility for the STJ, or is it something that over time they could meet in the middle with the other person over? It certainly isn't fair to ask someone to remake who they are, but from what I can tell, these issues seem to also impact the STJ negatively and distance them from the support and love of those who would like to get close to them.

 

[raz]

If I see someone crying, I'll write them a check for a therapist. Yes. That'll do the trick.

 

[NewEra]

Do you ever think about it again after it's over and done with, or do you avoid it even in your mind? Is this a matter of the social awkwardness of emotion in front of the other person, or the discomfort that emotional feelings bring to you personally?

Definitely the discomfort that emotional feeling brings. I never think about it after it's over, just during that moment itself, it sucks. Sometimes I miss people if they are gone, but I usually try and move forward.

 

[substitute]

Definitely the discomfort that emotional feeling brings. I never think about it after it's over, just during that moment itself, it sucks. Sometimes I miss people if they are gone, but I usually try and move forward.

Yeah. Do you ever get people trying to guilt trip you by saying you don't care about them because you don't spend all your time wallowing in how much you miss them, and just move forward?

How do you navigate interpersonal interactions without actually venting negative emotions for the most part? I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I just can't imagine what it would be like. If someone would not allow me to occasionally express those things, I would be like a pressure cooker and would blow to some poor unsuspecting person.

Dunno, it's instinctive. I can say from my perspective it's probably quite a lot to do with the "non-interferance", observational mindset of the T generally, wanting things to happen because they're logical and inevitable, not because I used my emotions to cause them or influence them in some way. To express those feelings would make me feel like I was manipulating people, and I'd lose respect for myself. I'd feel overly self-indulgent.

But, I don't know if that applies to the STJ's at all.

 

[Fidelia]

Substitute's Quote: Dunno, it's instinctive. I can say from my perspective it's probably quite a lot to do with the "non-interferance", observational mindset of the T generally, wanting things to happen because they're logical and inevitable, not because I used my emotions to cause them or influence them in some way. To express those feelings would make me feel like I was manipulating people, and I'd lose respect for myself. I'd feel overly self-indulgent.

But, I don't know if that applies to the STJ's at all.[/QUOTE]

That's interesting - So conversely, do you feel that when people express those feelings to you they are trying to manipulate you? From the reactions I've observed, I wonder if this might be the case...Certainly for feeling types, I think it is rarely an attempt to manipulate, but perhaps it is seen as that. Which may also explain the comments earlier in this thread about not giving sympathy to people who are "crying" (complaining, are upset etc) for what the STJ considers not to be a very serious or valid reason. Maybe they are upset that the person is "attempting" to manipulate them, which in fact may not be the case at all. It's just a different way of processing problems.

Do you feel then it is your job to either get over whatever is bothering you or else sever the relationship if things get to the point where you can't get over what's bothering you?