[SP] SP's and Change

[stellar renegade]

^ Yep, I can relate. I decided the key is to come off as much as a flake as possible, and people have fewer expectations. That relates to another motto I have:
"Show you're incompetence in something you don't like doing once, and people will never ask you to do it again." Seriously... you should try it.

Edit: Aw, crap. That might be considered a form of manipulation, isn't it. Well, in that sense, maybe I am a bit manipulative.

Haha, well I don't even have to try to show people that I'm a flake, it's just automatic. The moment someone asks me to do something and it comes time to do it, they know that I'm unreliable. I think the amount of times I've come through versus not is probably 99-1.

But yes, I've used the incompetence tactic my whole life, or at least just never try very hard at something I don't want to end up doing.

And yeah, I'll drop everything to do something that's going on right NOW. That's what causes me to be so unreliable, though. If you want me to do something, you pretty much have to tell me right when it's happening... I'm great at just running out the door last minute. Unless I'm already doing something else I want to do more, of course... haha.

I'm usually the one initiating activities anyway, though.

I'm not trying to be mean, but regarding what you've said and what a few others like stellar renegade have said...to a lot of people, this attitude would come across as pure selfishness. Regardless of type, I don't think it's unnatural for people to expect a bit of commitment from their friends. The chances are good that they've made a certain commitment to you and are hurt that you don't seem to value their friendship or be committed to them in the slightest.

Would you call it selfishness or do you see it a different way? I'm not trying to be a bitch, I really want to understand this.

Well no, a relationship/friendship is a two-way street. What if I don't want to commit on that level? Should someone else be allowed to have the say in how close we get? I'm not gonna get close to someone just because THEY want me to. That in and of itself seems selfish to me.

If a relationship isn't voluntary on both ends it just isn't worth it.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

You know, I always manage to show the people that are important to me just how much they mean to me... just not in very orthodox ways. I'd -like- to say every single one of them know this about me. I'm there for them when they need me, without fail. But when it comes to things like calling, or making plans, etc... I do my best to communicate why I absolutely suck at that, and make sure they know that that isn't any reflection of how I feel about them. I think I'm lucky though... while I'm sure most of my friends would prefer me to commit to plans, etc., a little earlier than what I actually do, they appreciate the fact that to make up for this, I'm pretty much down for anything at the last minute. And let's be honest, most people aren't as willing to drop everything for something/someone like we are.... or at least we take it to a whole new level.

Nah, I understand. But as I mentioned above, it is in no way a reflection of how I feel about my friendship with someone. I do make a commitment to them... in my own little way. The thing is, it takes me a long time to consider someone an important friend with my life. A good 80% of those people are people I've known for 4+ years. STPs are very "what you see is what you get." If I wasn't committed, I wouldn't still be in contact, no matter who initiated it. In my mind, if I pick up the phone, or make it out to see you (even if it might have taken a while to get plans down), that means I like and appreciate my relationship with you. Because even responding to some short Facebook post to an old friend I don't much care about is taxing. I'm not sure if that helped my case or not... but I would like to add that while we are sickeningly independent, we -know- this about ourselves and know people don't much care for it. The people that genuinely care about me know this as well, and give me my freedom. In return, I keep coming back, showing my affection in whatever ways an ISTP possibly can, and give them the same exact freedom.

Very well said.

 

[Charmed Justice]

I'm not trying to be mean, but regarding what you've said and what a few others like stellar renegade have said...to a lot of people, this attitude would come across as pure selfishness. Regardless of type, I don't think it's unnatural for people to expect a bit of commitment from their friends.

Well no, a relationship/friendship is a two-way street. What if I don't want to commit on that level? Should someone else be allowed to have the say in how close we get? I'm not gonna get close to someone just because THEY want me to. That in and of itself seems selfish to me.

If a relationship isn't voluntary on both ends it just isn't worth it.

This. Although, I do understand people wanting to be clear on how committed you might be to a friendship/relationship.

 

[Poki]

This. Although, I do understand people wanting to be clear on how committed you might be to a friendship/relationship.

Hello :hi: So in a friendship and relationship does an ENFP usually initiate verbally that they are friends or in a relationship or do they sit back and wait for the other person to see how the other person feels?

 

[Charmed Justice]

Hello :hi: So in a friendship and relationship does an ENFP usually initiate verbally that they are friends or in a relationship or do they sit back and wait for the other person to see how the other person feels?

Hi Poki! In a friendship, I just sit back and let it happen. I don't need to define it and I don't have expectations for commitment level. My ESXP best friend was actually the one who asserted that we were "best friends". It was kinda shocking to me actually, because I didn't feel that close to her at the time. I saw the potential though, and just let it unfold as it did. We've been close for quite a long time now.

Some people do seem to want more out of me than I'm willing or able to give at the time. I've learned to drop hints to give new people heads up about what type of friendship I'm into. I've found it easy and extremely fulfilling to be very close, long-term friends, with SPs. They usually aren't needy, clingy, and demanding of my time, and I'm not any of things either. Last year, a lady and I started hanging out and after about a month, she was calling me multiple times a day-nearly every day. If I didn't respond to her calls within a few days, she'd leave me a voicemail saying something like,"I hope you're not mad at me. Are you mad at me?" The first couple of times, I understood and apologized because I can be flighty and I know that it can be taken the wrong way sometimes. After more than two months though, and lots of apologizing on my part and us talking about it, it became too much and I slowly faded away.

A romantic relationship is different though. I was never was one for ambiguity in commitment in that department.

 

[mcmartinez84]

I'm not trying to be mean, but regarding what you've said and what a few others like stellar renegade have said...to a lot of people, this attitude would come across as pure selfishness. Regardless of type, I don't think it's unnatural for people to expect a bit of commitment from their friends. The chances are good that they've made a certain commitment to you and are hurt that you don't seem to value their friendship or be committed to them in the slightest.

Would you call it selfishness or do you see it a different way? I'm not trying to be a bitch, I really want to understand this.

I think Steph and Stellar have pretty much answered this for me as far as friendship goes.

Altho I should say that I make myself seem incompetent at doing things not so much as an incompetent friend. I want people to assume that I'm a noob so as not to lead them on. I hate tooting my own horn, so I down play most things. I know there are many people out there who are better or know more about some stuff than I do and I'm not always sure who knows what. For instance, if someone wanted to ride bikes with me, I'd let them know that I'm a bit slow, that I have to walk uphill sometimes. Now, it may be that it's a great day and I don't have to do all of that. What I don't want to do is come off as an arrogant ass when I talk about myself. I really don't like it when people say they're great at something and then they're not.

And back to friendship... I, too, do things in an instant. Call me to go out now, and I'll probably go. If I'm in the middle of something and you need help, I'll most likely help (y'know, given that I can do anything about it!). Seriously, most of the time I have no plans at all 'cause my life tends toward the boring side. And given that info, I'm almost ALWAYS up for something. I will VERY rarely pick to stay at home alone over hanging out with cool people and going on an adventure.
And most of my friends who know me are aware of my lack of planning ahead. When planning something, they'll ask "Do you wanna do this?" and I'll say "Sure, just tell me when" - and unless it's something "big" (say a trip that I'd hafta prepare for), they can pretty much tell me the day it's happening and BAM, there I am. When it's something big that I can easily join or not later on, I tell them I'm interested, but that I'm not sure about whether I'll be there. That way I'm kept in the loop and it generally keeps my interest and I'll prolly end up going. Yeah, it's a bit selfish, but I make sure to tell them that I don't wanna commit and then back out at the last minute. I mean, if it's something I know I won't be interested in regardless, I say no straight up.

I kinda went on some tangents, but maybe that helps?

 

[King sns]

Curious as to how often and how well SP's make changes in life.

Any frequent movers? job changers? car traders? Relationship changers?

Just general restlessness...

Umm.. with me, yes.
Although I don't want to be. There is nothing more that I would like to do than settle. Sometimes I feel like life just demands me to change all the time. I want to be happy, and I refuse to get stuck in a rut for the sake of settling. I move a lot and change relationships a lot. I try to keep jobs I like the same so there will be sameness somewhere in my life.

As far as friendship goes, I try to be and consider myself a good loyal and committed friend. But at the same time I change friends a lot. I'm not exactly sure what happens to make it be that way. Something I'm doing I guess to make it be that way. I keep friends for a long time, so I have a lot of friends. But as far as current, up to date groups that i'm spending most of my time with... it changes almost every year, or even every 6 months.

It usually feels to me as if things are changing around me rather than me changing them. Like I have no control over this constant change in my life. But then I see all these people around me who are just settled and happy, and I realize that its probably me and my need for independance and not being tied down.

 

[StephMC]

Altho I should say that I make myself seem incompetent at doing things not so much as an incompetent friend. I want people to assume that I'm a noob so as not to lead them on. I hate tooting my own horn, so I down play most things. I know there are many people out there who are better or know more about some stuff than I do and I'm not always sure who knows what. For instance, if someone wanted to ride bikes with me, I'd let them know that I'm a bit slow, that I have to walk uphill sometimes. Now, it may be that it's a great day and I don't have to do all of that. What I don't want to do is come off as an arrogant ass when I talk about myself. I really don't like it when people say they're great at something and then they're not.

Amen to that. And not having a lot of plans leaves my schedule open so I can drop everything I'm doing for someone/something. I go out and do things just as much as anyone else, I just don't plan them ahead of time... nothing wrong with that, right? Especially since that spontanaety is really energizing to me. I really appreciate the friends that do this for me. And the more I think of it, the more I'm realizing this is a huge way I show people that their relationship is important to me. The more important they are, the higher the priority they get on my drop whatever I'm doing list. When I was involved with an ENFP, he quickly learned that was how I showed him I cared about him. He could call me anytime, invite me anywhere, and I was in. That's just how our relationship worked, and it was meaningful to both of us.

 

[Poki]

Amen to that. And not having a lot of plans leaves my schedule open so I can drop everything I'm doing for someone/something. I go out and do things just as much as anyone else, I just don't plan them ahead of time... nothing wrong with that, right? Especially since that spontanaety is really energizing to me. I really appreciate the friends that do this for me. And the more I think of it, the more I'm realizing this is a huge way I show people that their relationship is important to me. The more important they are, the higher the priority they get on my drop whatever I'm doing list. When I was involved with an ENFP, he quickly learned that was how I showed him I cared about him. He could call me anytime, invite me anywhere, and I was in. That's just how our relationship worked, and it was meaningful to both of us.

That whole incompetent thing doesnt work for a man Which causes problems on that front which leads to avoidance tactics.

I have pretty much always dropped what i was doing unless I was in the middle of doing something for/with someone else. Things I do generally dont matter to me in the grand scheme of things and can be delayed.

 

[StephMC]

^ Yep, I can relate. I decided the key is to come off as much as a flake as possible, and people have fewer expectations. That relates to another motto I have:
"Show you're incompetence in something you don't like doing once, and people will never ask you to do it again." Seriously... you should try it.

Edit: Aw, crap. That might be considered a form of manipulation, isn't it. Well, in that sense, maybe I am a bit manipulative.

I just now realized I said that and forgot this wasn't the manipulation thread.

 

[Heinel]

I just now realized I said that and forgot this wasn't the manipulation thread.

You just love manipulation you couldn't get it off your head

 

[Poki]

I just now realized I said that and forgot this wasn't the manipulation thread.

I do the same thing. Someting in a thread will cause a thought to popup and you forget what thread your in. This is part of my flakiness I swear.

 

[mcmartinez84]

I do the same thing. Someting in a thread will cause a thought to popup and you forget what thread your in. This is part of my flakiness I swear.

It happens to the best of us, apparently!

 

[sLiPpY]

Seems like the thread shifted in context to the concept of change and relationships.

Which is perfectly fine.

 

[SilkRoad]

Well no, a relationship/friendship is a two-way street. What if I don't want to commit on that level? Should someone else be allowed to have the say in how close we get? I'm not gonna get close to someone just because THEY want me to. That in and of itself seems selfish to me.

If a relationship isn't voluntary on both ends it just isn't worth it.

This is a good point, and I totally agree you don't want people following you around who have decided you're besties when you haven't really given them any indication to that effect...I find that creepy/off-putting too...

I think though that if you are going to take the above view you have to think a bit about what kind of impression you are giving the other person. For myself, it's one thing if my friendship/relationship with someone has always been on a very casual level, more like acquaintanceship. But if someone seems quite "committed" to you one day (wanting to do a lot with you, opening up to you about their feelings, telling you how important your friendship and respect are to them...etc), and then another day they are only polite but not particularly friendly with you, make weird evasive excuses if you suggest doing something together, etc...a lot of people are going to be confused by that. Especially INFJs, because we value consistency. I have had this experience before, perhaps with different types but certainly with an SP or two. And I don't think it's that I'm getting too clingy with them...I have such a horror of being clingy that if anything I think I sometimes end up seeming too detached...

I'm just saying it's worth thinking about how the other person is going to take things. Ok, some people are always going to take things the wrong way - but there are others who are quite naturally going to be confused if you get close to them and then back way off, get close to them again and then run off again, etc.

 

[SilkRoad]

Nah, I understand. But as I mentioned above, it is in no way a reflection of how I feel about my friendship with someone. I do make a commitment to them... in my own little way. The thing is, it takes me a long time to consider someone an important friend with my life. A good 80% of those people are people I've known for 4+ years. STPs are very "what you see is what you get." If I wasn't committed, I wouldn't still be in contact, no matter who initiated it. In my mind, if I pick up the phone, or make it out to see you (even if it might have taken a while to get plans down), that means I like and appreciate my relationship with you. Because even responding to some short Facebook post to an old friend I don't much care about is taxing. I'm not sure if that helped my case or not... but I would like to add that while we are sickeningly independent, we -know- this about ourselves and know people don't much care for it. The people that genuinely care about me know this as well, and give me my freedom. In return, I keep coming back, showing my affection in whatever ways an ISTP possibly can, and give them the same exact freedom.

Sure, it's not really my approach, but I understand a bit better I do think though that a lot of misunderstandings and unhappiness in friendships/relationships are caused by people have completely different views on what constitutes a good friendship/relationship. I suppose one mark of a good friendship though could be the willingness to put in the time and effort to understand the other person's viewpoint

It may sound weird and naive, but although I suppose I've always been intellectually aware that not everyone has the same take on friendship that I do, I think that fact has only recently been brought home to me emotionally by certain things that have transpired in my life.

 

[Damir]

if have found out that alot of SP when dealing with stress they get idea that they should move somevhere else and change

 

[McRumi]

LOL. ISTPs thrive in stressful situations. They solve them and then move on.

 

[lilikoi]

Curious as to how often and how well SP's make changes in life.

Any frequent movers? job changers? car traders? Relationship changers?

Just general restlessness...

If I were single, I'd probably be moving. A LOT. I think about travel constantly. I like to have a trip in the works so that I can look forward to a new adventure. I have never held a job longer than a year. I have been w/ the same guy for the past 3 or 4 years. He is amazing, but the commitment is not easy for me.

I've moved 12 times and I'm only 19. This means 12 different cities.
I've learned to get over it and just do it. I do hate it though because I've never had a best friend or people that are my base. I'm always the new person and its horrible.
I've been a loner my whole life, on my own lonely adventure.

sigh....

I have never had people that are my base either. Even in high school, I never really belonged to any of the cliques, rather I would drift from one to another and make "rounds". I hate being the new person, too. I have been a loner my whole life as well. It would be nice to have a compatible person along for my travels, but I usually travel alone.

I have a seriously bad case of wanderlust nearly all of the time. My dream is to walk the Appalachian trail and see and touch something different every day... or go to Machu Picchu and see the Inca buildings and how they have stayed structurally sound despite being built with no mortar whatsoever (just pieces put together like a jigsaw puzzle). I was really happy during the summer of 2008, when I was walking with the "Witness Against War" group from Chicago to Saint Paul, Minnesota. It was great to be in a different town almost every day, meeting different people, hearing their stories, exploring different scenery from big cities to farmland.
So... I guess that qualifies as just general restlessness.

That sound amazing. I dream about stuff like this too.

 

[lilikoi]

if have found out that alot of SP when dealing with stress they get idea that they should move somevhere else and change

Indeed this thought has occurred to me many times and it is always a result of stress.