Spanking: Should spanking be used to discipline a child?

[Sacrophagus]

Lots of ways to deal with a child without the use of force. Imo spanking/hurting a child is never ok. It is usually done out of anger or frustration which is the opposite of discipline, you are actually teaching your child violence is the answer when you can't cope. As for the occasional spanking when the child is misbehaving i don't agree with that either, i don't believe for a second it even 'works', why should children be afraid of their parents? respect yes, love yes, care yes... but why fear?

Cognitive dissonance. Mistaking fear for love and attraction is common, which is why some indulge in sadomasochistic fetishes.


Fear of abandonment, fear of invalidation, and other primal fears take place chemically in the body of the child at a vulnerable age shaping form for a twisted form of relationship. Hitting a child becomes a stimulus to remind him of those fears and attachment tremors and prompt a willingless to comply. This only works if you don't actually show affection to your child. It fucked up many people as they grew traumatized and fearful, and only the parent benefited from that relationship to feed their own sadistic thirst for control.

The other common way of discipline pertains to those who display affection easily to their children and hit them at the same time. They won't get them to be obedient.
Picture that father who hits his son, but then feels guitly afterwards and gives him money to go out with his friends. The child becomes some sort of Pavlovian experiment. He knows that once the father hits, he will become guilty and treats him welll. It doesn't allow the child to adjust his bad behaviors at all, but the child isn't as wounded emotionally. It's a failing system.



Others will argue that the right amount of hitting will do the work. Do what you see fit. I don't use that crap.

The approach I use is be an example to your child. Practise what you preach.

Just like I cherish my sense of independence, my child will not have ideals enforced upon him. His identity stems from our ability to allow them to form their own vision, and give them the freedom to think and speak out. For all I know, my child could be smarter and wiser than I.
The child only becomes rebellious when he has never known what it means to be independent. The child grows confident when he's allowed freedom to think, his intelligence and opinions are valued. He's feeling both safe and loved.

I'd rather have a son who's a friend. I'd teach him what I know, and it is for him to take, or for him to leave. Let him understand the world at his own pace.
This is the same we wanted when we were children. Some of us had it, some of us were not as fortunate.


Do you think you'll have to consider hitting your children as a punishment if you brought them with that mindset?



I think not.

 

[Betty Blue]

Cognitive dissonance. Mistaking fear for love and attraction is common, which is why some indulge in sadomasochistic fetishes.


Fear of abandonment, fear of invalidation, and other primal fears take place chemically in the body of the child at a vulnerable age shaping form for a twisted form of relationship. Hitting a child becomes a stimulus to remind him of those fears and attachment tremors and prompt a willingless to comply. This only works if you don't actually show affection to your child. It fucked up many people as they grew traumatized and fearful, and only the parent benefited from that relationship to feed their own sadistic thirst for control.

The other common way of discipline pertains to those who display affection easily to their children and hit them at the same time. They won't get them to be obedient.
Picture that father who hits his son, but then feels guitly afterwards and gives him money to go out with his friends. The child becomes some sort of Pavlovian experiment. He knows that once the father hits, he will become guilty and treats him welll. It doesn't allow the child to adjust his bad behaviors at all, but the child isn't as wounded emotionally. It's a failing system.



Others will argue that the right amount of hitting will do the work. Do what you see fit. I don't use that crap.

The approach I use is be an example to your child. Practise what you preach.

Just like I cherish my sense of independence, my child will not have ideals enforced upon him. His identity stems from our ability to allow them to form their own vision, and give them the freedom to think and speak out. For all I know, my child could be smarter and wiser than I.
The child only becomes rebellious when he has never knew what it means to be independent. The child grows confident when he's allowed freedom to think, his intelligence and opinions are valued. He's feeling both safe and loved.

I'd rather have a son who's a friend. I'd teach him what I know, and it is for him to take, or for him to leave. Let him understand the world at his own pace.
This is the same we wanted when we were children. Some of us had it, some of us were not as fortunate.


Do you think you'll have to consider hitting your children as a punishment if you brought them with that mindset?



I think not.

What a fantastic post. Provoked some thought, which I love!

I would add though that boundaries are necessary, even with a strong role model because children will test their boundaries. If their are none they may continue to rebel until something is found rebellious, which i think is perfectly natural for children. It is in the parents/guardians remit to point out when they reach the outer limits. So they do need guidance as well as leadership. Friendship is good as long as they also know that you are the one who can take responsibility when they are lost.

 

[highlander]

That's a tough one, in a confined space with no escape for a prolonged period of time. I can see how a parent might give in to constant whining. There would be better ways of dealing with it of course. Trying to put a positive spin on things (aka if you behave well we will go to the park tomorrow etc), engaging with said child i.e playing a game. Lots of ways to deal with a child without the use of force. Imo spanking/hurting a child is never ok. It is usually done out of anger or frustration which is the opposite of discipline, you are actually teaching your child violence is the answer when you can't cope. As for the occasional spanking when the child is misbehaving i don't agree with that either, i don't believe for a second it even 'works', why should children be afraid of their parents? respect yes, love yes, care yes... but why fear?

I guess I will refine my response . I think certain kinds of disciine works for some kids and not others . For some a rare spanlkng as the ultimate punishment works pretty well. For others it might be completely ineffective and just make them more stubborn and indignant . I'm not much for physical punishment at all . Don't get me wrong. People need to find a way to discipline their damn kids though. Find a way that works. They need to know where boundaries lie.

 

[Betty Blue]

I guess I will refine my response . I think certain kinds of disciine works for some kids and not others . For some a rare spanlkng as the ultimate punishment works pretty well. For others it might be completely ineffective and just make them more stubborn and indignant . I'm not much for physical punishment at all . Don't get me wrong. People need to find a way to discipline their damn kids though. Find a way that works. They need to know where boundaries lie.

Now you see this is where i don't agree. Bad parenting (though we all have to learn and each has their own areas of weakness) should never result in a child being subject to violence. Spanking is violence. It's really that simple. If you think you are a good parent and spank a child you are not a good parent, at least in that area.

 

[cascadeco]

The titles themselves show that they're inconclusive. I don't even need to read them to know that they haven't "proven that spanking is not effective and can cause emotional damage."
They simply can't prove causation.

Human interactions are far too complex to come up with simple black and white determinations on an issue like this. There are just too many people like me that don't have any issue with the fact that they were raised with spanking.

I think I agree with this; there are definitely so many variables involved.

I too was spanked on occasion, though very rarely and it was probably a last resort, since I could probably count on one hand the number of times I was spanked (and it wasn't some violent long drawn out spanking process, it was one or two slaps and that was it). I don't have traumatic memories and feel I had a happy young childhood, very good relationship with my parents.

I imagine there are people who use it indiscriminately and aren't smart enough to come up with any other methods of raising their children, and so yeah, I'm sure in some or many cases it's not used in a healthy manner. But I am not going to say it, in and of itself, is horrible. I imagine it is how it is done. And yeah, I generally agree that there are lots of other methods one can use beforehand. I also agree with comments that every child is different and while some children respond amazingly well to reason and talking things out, others do not. Some children are dream children, others have more challenges. I don't think there's a one size fits all way of going about things; nor am I 'pro spanking'; I just don't think it's as inherently 'evil' by default as some think it is. I'm not here to really debate it though, it's fine with me if a lot of people think otherwise, I'm just adding my own experience/thoughts.

 

[rav3n]

A bunch of us had children close in age. The only problem child was the one who was spanked. After her ESTJ mother stopped spanking her, she started responding, rather than defying.

 

[highlander]

Cognitive dissonance. Mistaking fear for love and attraction is common, which is why some indulge in sadomasochistic fetishes.


Fear of abandonment, fear of invalidation, and other primal fears take place chemically in the body of the child at a vulnerable age shaping form for a twisted form of relationship. Hitting a child becomes a stimulus to remind him of those fears and attachment tremors and prompt a willingless to comply. This only works if you don't actually show affection to your child. It fucked up many people as they grew traumatized and fearful, and only the parent benefited from that relationship to feed their own sadistic thirst for control.

The other common way of discipline pertains to those who display affection easily to their children and hit them at the same time. They won't get them to be obedient.
Picture that father who hits his son, but then feels guitly afterwards and gives him money to go out with his friends. The child becomes some sort of Pavlovian experiment. He knows that once the father hits, he will become guilty and treats him welll. It doesn't allow the child to adjust his bad behaviors at all, but the child isn't as wounded emotionally. It's a failing system.



Others will argue that the right amount of hitting will do the work. Do what you see fit. I don't use that crap.

The approach I use is be an example to your child. Practise what you preach.

Just like I cherish my sense of independence, my child will not have ideals enforced upon him. His identity stems from our ability to allow them to form their own vision, and give them the freedom to think and speak out. For all I know, my child could be smarter and wiser than I.
The child only becomes rebellious when he has never known what it means to be independent. The child grows confident when he's allowed freedom to think, his intelligence and opinions are valued. He's feeling both safe and loved.

I'd rather have a son who's a friend. I'd teach him what I know, and it is for him to take, or for him to leave. Let him understand the world at his own pace.
This is the same we wanted when we were children. Some of us had it, some of us were not as fortunate.


Do you think you'll have to consider hitting your children as a punishment if you brought them with that mindset?



I think not.

I don't mean to sound critical. That sounds very impressive and good . However it's a bit idealistic for any parent with a four year old I'm not so sure about the viability of the advice.

 

[Abcdenfp]

discipline is so cultural,
in my country you are told to choose the item you will be spanked with, belt , tree switch or hand. i was never spanked i watched my cousins enough to know i was fearful, and ONE time in primary school i was spanked by a teacher for pointing with my middle finger.
ive seen spanking work and ive seen it be futile. ive also seen what abuse looks like.
discipline to me is about what assist with an individuals growth. are they better for it? did it produce thought and maturity.. did they develop better or for worse?

 

[Aquarelle]

I don't mean to sound critical. That sounds very impressive and good . However it's a bit idealistic for any parent with a four year old I'm not so sure about the viability of the advice.

I agree with you on this. Sarcophagus' advice is the ideal. But I have a 4 year old and it is not always realistic to follow it. However there are tactics besides spanking/physical punishment that work for discipline. Mostly logical consequences of failure to obey/acting out, and preventing the acting out on the first place by giving positive attention and age appropriate choices. Which is a lot like what @sarcophagus said.

 

[Lark]

It was ideal and seldom worked out as it should have but in the wake of any incident, as close as possible to the time it occured and if possible with the staff who were in situ we'd try and discuss the incident, summarise the feelings and content, link the feelings and behaviour, plan alternative behaviour, enter the young person back into the routine. Hopefully there's not a reoccurrence of the precise same incident. If there is and the same process is carried out repeatedly too and the whole thing is documented then its time to consider what the options are because for whatever reason the standard approach is ineffective.

The whole thing was a teaching process, hinged on the stress model of crisis, ie that any challenging behaviour was a result of a triggering event, escalation through agitation to outburst, either coping skills hadnt ever been learned or had been overtaxed by the situation and then proven ineffective, resulting the outburst. To be honest I always thought that while the whole thing was aimed at young people learning there was a lot could be learned by adults applying it, after all you cant be any help to an emotionally flooded/enraged child or adolescent if you're becoming emotionally flooded/enraged yourself.

This is all based on the outbursts or aggression being reactive, largely, that is becoming emotionally flooded, losing composure and self control, the intervention of an adult supportively, especially if its an adult that the child or adolescent has a good relationship with already, is going to provide co-regulation until they can self-regulate again.

If its proactive outbursts and aggression that's a different story, generally in my experience if it's proactive and its prototypical, then maybe you can stop it but if its something that's truly a learned style of behaviour, habitual, then, well, I really think expectations can not be set too highly and contingency planning better start early.

These sorts of approaches to challenging behaviour, seen as crisis attendant upon an exhaustion or over taxing of skills, are no panacea and I think were often misunderstood by practitioners and managers in facilities I was familiar with, often there were a lot of different competiting needs, service versus client (which was often conceived, wrongly, as operational staff versus clients).

There's a lot of variables when it comes to changing challenging behaviour in the context I'm talking about, parenting other peoples children, often adolescents, for instance attachment styles, trauma legacies, stuff you may not know about which could be a trigger, stuff the child or adolescent may be barely aware of too and most of all, at least this is my take. Culture and norms (there's neighbourhood culture or even household and familial cultures before you get to the point of something so vague as society but those things are very, very strong), also peers. Peers are incredibly important, more important than parents at the adolescent stage and in some communities slightly older peers stand in for adults, mothers or fathers, even when the kids in question do have parents that they are regularly in touch with.

All this isnt especially useful maybe, I think there's threads about dealing with stress or aggression elsewhere in the forum that are great too, although just sharing a slight bit of knowledge and experience for anyone who may find it useful. I've seen simpler versions of the conversation about behavioural expectations and planning of alternative behaviour used in play groups to great effect. Safety and good attachment figures and developing attachments are all good and important to skills acquisition.

 

[Lark]

discipline is so cultural,
in my country you are told to choose the item you will be spanked with, belt , tree switch or hand. i was never spanked i watched my cousins enough to know i was fearful, and ONE time in primary school i was spanked by a teacher for pointing with my middle finger.
ive seen spanking work and ive seen it be futile. ive also seen what abuse looks like.
discipline to me is about what assist with an individuals growth. are they better for it? did it produce thought and maturity.. did they develop better or for worse?

This is true, I remember a lecturer at university telling me about a number of different families that they intervened with, there was one in which there had been corporeal punishment and it had been one of the children being beaten with a switch. It as very thin branch of a plant in the garden like a cane, now as mad as that may sound to someone who has no experience what so ever of it when they investigated that household they found that the family relationships were all good, warm, close, friendly, caring and the whole beating with the switch infrequent.

On the other hand they did investigate another family in which the parents would never have laid a hand on their children, or anything else besides, although they were cold, distant and indifferent to their children's welfare. Believe it or not, despite the occasional physical punishment, the emotional abuse in the second example has been found to be more harmful over time.

Worst case scenario of course is the cold, distant, indifferent parenting combined with the physical violence but that's a different story.

The thing is that all discipline ultimate is either self-discipline or its not really discipline, people who do things only because of the threat of punishment or promise of reward, as though life is some kind of huge Skinner box and they're a pigeon flipping switches? Something has gone wrong there, that's almost the definition of sociopathy right there, no internal sense of right and wrong capable of competing with will I or wont I get caught by others or the authorities.

 

[Abcdenfp]

This is true, I remember a lecturer at university telling me about a number of different families that they intervened with, there was one in which there had been corporeal punishment and it had been one of the children being beaten with a switch. It as very thin branch of a plant in the garden like a cane, now as mad as that may sound to someone who has no experience what so ever of it when they investigated that household they found that the family relationships were all good, warm, close, friendly, caring and the whole beating with the switch infrequent. On the other hand they did investigate another family in which the parents would never have laid a hand on their children, or anything else besides, although they were cold, distant and indifferent to their children's welfare. Believe it or not, despite the occasional physical punishment, the emotional abuse in the second example has been found to be more harmful over time. Worst case scenario of course is the cold, distant, indifferent parenting combined with the physical violence but that's a different story. The thing is that all discipline ultimate is either self-discipline or its not really discipline, people who do things only because of the threat of punishment or promise of reward, as though life is some kind of huge Skinner box and they're a pigeon flipping switches? Something has gone wrong there, that's almost the definition of sociopathy right there, no internal sense of right and wrong capable of competing with will I or wont I get caught by others or the authorities.

lol yes.. a switch is VERY common here , again you would traditionally asked to pick your switch from the yard. But like your first example the majority of these parents love their kids and think they are helping develop them in a positive manner
i cant tell you how many times i have watched the news or been in the states and seen children act out in the mall etc and my parents , relatives or just other people in my culture who are with me shake their head and say " they need a good cut ass, they wouldnt be acting like that"
i agree that ideally people need an internap structure of self discipline and morals that they should operate from but the vast majority of people need an external source for a guideline, thats why there are laws and jail.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Maybe it is cultural but I find it interesting that no one here considers the option that the parent would get it's own medicine back.

 

[Obfuscate]

Maybe it is cultural but I find it interesting that no one here considers the option that the parent wouldn't get it's own medicine back.

if it's not actually abusive, there would be no need for the child to react that way... it isn't something beyond consideration, but very unlikely unless there is some other factor at play...

 

[Virtual ghost]

if it's not actually abusive, there would be no need for the child to react that way... it isn't something beyond consideration, but very unlikely unless there is some other factor at play...

Other factor ?

 

[Obfuscate]

Other factor ?

neglect, actual abuse, mental health issues, and a variety of other factors..

 

[Virtual ghost]

neglect, actual abuse, mental health issues, and a variety of other factors..

Exactly, plus you miss social climate as a whole.


Just in the street next to me the child killed his parents.
Plus recenty in my country there was the case where the teen brutally mudered his parents that were abusive towards him.


Violence can go both ways without too many problems and barriers, while authority is mostly just an illusion.

 

[Cellmold]

Also, you really shouldn't be so quick to defend the social sciences.
In many areas they're an absolute mess and a joke.
New Real Peer Review (@RealPeerReview) | Twitter

Apologies in advance for bringing politics into this.

Well that could be a huge topic in itself, where there is a debate over the social sciences themselves have being inundated with questionable ideologies. And more to the point: those people who would exploit an ideology to it's most extreme bent in a very cut and dried manner.

Although I'm not well read enough on the subject itself to really give a decent account. It is, however, fairly obvious that there is a politically left-leaning bent in the social sciences (in fact almost exclusively).

Having said that, I wouldn't spank the baby in it's bathwater on the social sciences either.

 

[Jaguar]

Well, let's see. I grabbed a cucumber out of a father's hand who was hitting his kid with it in a grocery store, and I told my buddy if he hit his daughter with his belt I was going to shove the belt up his ass. I'd say that sums up my thoughts on spanking kids.

 

[EcK]

The titles themselves show that they're inconclusive. I don't even need to read them to know that they haven't "proven that spanking is not effective and can cause emotional damage."
They simply can't prove causation.

Human interactions are far too complex to come up with simple black and white determinations on an issue like this. There are just too many people like me that don't have any issue with the fact that they were raised with spanking.

You can't tell me to disbelieve my own eyes and trust some academics when it comes to something like this.
Moreover, even if I agreed I certainly wouldn't believe in forcing others to comply based on some research.

Also, you really shouldn't be so quick to defend the social sciences.
In many areas they're an absolute mess and a joke.
New Real Peer Review (@RealPeerReview) | Twitter

If by that you mean that spanking is effective in triggering pain avoidant behavior. You’re right.
By that logic a guy twice your size should come beat you up each time you suggest to or try to assault a child. As per your own experience that should be effective in keeping you from child abuse.

Or would you have an objection then. Perhaps even a moral objection - were the tables turned.

Discussing the effectiveness or not of immoral acts is assinine. With that type of utilitarian arguments we could justify slavery. It’s IMMORAL to hit a child - i don’t care about the effectiveness of hitting children any more than i care about the effectiveness of slavery or any other immoral act inflicted upon others by immoral people.