[SJ] SJ's - we love you!

[Frosty]

I posted that before I received your rep.

Alright, my mistake.

You miss my point. That's fine.

Let me say the question though in another way. How could someone express both appreciation and frustration in a way you would deem "better"? More authentic.

And do you think your point in this thread is revelatory?

I don't think my point is absolutely relevatory, no.

But I think that towards the state that it is ignored, it might as well be.

While I do suspect some of ulterior motivations, ones that they are definitively aware of, I do not think that it is necessarily the case for all. And by no means, even in the people who I think do have an awareness of what I am suggesting that they do, are doing it for malicious purposes.

It is just the state that the array of information is in.

Opal's statement I actually have mixed ideas about. On one hand it acknowledges that there might be some sort of self reported bias- one that he should be able to talk about to the extent that he pleases, but on the other hand, I see it as an example, on a larger scale, of all the stereotypes pushed into the back of people's heads- pushed forewards partially- and then blanketly accepted. If his more obvious statement recieves that sort of acceptance, it sort of implies that similar will as well. I would much rather have someone say I FUCKING HATE SJ's, then I only hate SJ's when I have to deal with an aspect of them being themselves- if they just were not so much like what my idea of their nature happens to be- what I am furthering with this statement that their nature absolutely is- if they just were not so... them, then I would have no issue- if I could like them I would- so don't go pointing the finger guy's, I'm tolerant. There are implications behind those sorts of statements, similar to add an exception to an apology or an expression of adoration, an expression of goodwill mixed with an undertone of less than, or the other way around, it doesn't matter- it all serves the same purpose. A person beingg able to state the message that they want, but do so in such a palatable- yet vaguely noticed manner, that slips under the radar- seems acceptable, so then all the Nazi's feel that it is totally acceptable to follow this new friendly Hitler.

Help me clarify further- I apologize if I am or am seeming to avoid any of your questions.

But before anyone goes, but that's life! I don't see the same thing going on with other typology systems- it is different when there is an association of lesser and greater.

 

[Fun in the Sun]

SJs are cool when they're not trying to stifle me or trying to make me feel like I'm a weirdo for being creative and original.

Do NOT stifle me or try to make me feel like I don't belong.

Hey, SJs can be creative too It's just a different kind of creative.

Sorry you have felt stifled by them in the past. We're not all like that.

 

[Fun in the Sun]

Where is the point in this thread where we sit around having a good time while drinking wine?

 

[Frosty]

I shouldn't have done this, for so many reasons.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I shouldn't have done this, for so many reasons.

I've enjoyed the points you've made, and Forever was trying to make some too, which I also enjoyed. You both just crossed wires, is all.

What I hear you saying is that sometimes, concealed behind compliments or kind words, is a motive that's less than kind and is in fact, derogatory of the very thing that one purports to admire. That threads like these can sometimes veil that kind of purpose, or that intermingled therein are all kinds of opinions where one would have trouble perhaps separating those with good intention apart from those who's intention is less than honorable. Sometimes threads like these even stem from a kind of conceit about one's own "goodness", to varying degrees of even being aware that one's own bias being so clearly on display, and perpetuate limiting stereotypes. You're concerned about all that and wish to highlight it so that all are aware.

How's that for a translation, does that address your concerns? Because you're right, all of those things can happen and be true.

 

[Frosty]

I've enjoyed the points you've made, and Forever was trying to make some too, which I also enjoyed. You both just crossed wires, is all.

What I hear you saying is that sometimes, concealed behind compliments or kind words, is a motive that's less than kind and is in fact, derogatory of the very thing that one purports to admire. That threads like these can sometimes veil that kind of purpose, or that intermingled therein are all kinds of opinions where one would have trouble perhaps separating those with good intention apart from those who's intention is less than honorable. Sometimes threads like these even stem from a kind of conceit about one's own "goodness", to varying degrees of even being aware that one's own bias being so clearly on display, and perpetuate limiting stereotypes. You're concerned about all that and wish to highlight it so that all are aware.

How's that for a translation, does that address your concerns? Because you're right, all of those things can happen and be true.

Yeah, I stand behind the points I was trying to make to an extent- don't get me wrong, but it was too presumptuous off of too little got excited and went ahead of myself, and now I just randomly feel shitty so I am done for now. Don't know, have to think about this. But I'll cut the drama for now until I can make it work. Thanks though.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Yeah, I stand behind the points I was trying to make to an extent- don't get me wrong, but it was too presumptuous off of too little got excited and went ahead of myself, and now I just randomly feel shitty so I am done for now. Don't know, have to think about this. But I'll cut the drama for now until I can make it work. Thanks though.

I hear you. If there's anyone you feel bad about potentially miscommunicating with, I'd heartily encourage you to just say exactly this to that person, either here or in PM. That should clear the air. I don't think anyone meant to cause anyone distress, here.

All's well, and I'm glad you expanded your points and brought them home clearly.

 

[Showbread]

I don't recall you being overly overjoyed when I suggested that you might be an ISFJ. Everyone pretends to be openly accepting of the equal value of all types, but at the end of the day no one wants to be an SJ. It is what it is. They distance themselves from the notion that they might be one by propogating these stereotypes, paying their dues by pretending to acknowledge the 'strengths' of these types, but doing so in a way that frequently is used as a way to contrast their self developed personas against those characteristics.

...I want to be an SJ. My first typology exposure was reading my mom's Keirsey books. At the time I tested ESTJ and I remember reading the description and thinking "Wow, that's pretty bad ass!" I was extremely pleased to be typed as someone who had natural leadership abilities, organization, and the ability to take charge and demand respect. Obviously, I'm not actually an ESTJ, but a lot of the positive attributes carry over to ESFJ (hence twinning with [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]). It actually wasn't until I joined the forum that I realized some people thought there was something wrong with being an SJ. I never thought they were better than any other type, but based on descriptions they seemed like an integral role in society. Let's be real, if everyone in the world were an SJ the world wouldn't be a spectacular place. But, a world without any SJs would also be a disaster.

I'm an NP, not a boring uncreative SJ. But now it is a win win.)

See, this is where the type influenced values comes into play. The fact that I am uncreative doesn't bother me in the slightest. Sure, it's embarrassing when I play pictionary or something and I can only draw stick figures. But does it actually bother me? Nope. I;m glad there are creative people in the world, but personally I would much rather have my shit together and be known as a responsible adult than be able to take award winning pictures. NPs don't know why anyone would want to be an SJ. Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to be an NP. I like having my head firmly attached to neck and down to earth, rather than up in the clouds.

 

[prplchknz]

...I want to be an SJ. My first typology exposure was reading my mom's Keirsey books. At the time I tested ESTJ and I remember reading the description and thinking "Wow, that's pretty bad ass!" I was extremely pleased to be typed as someone who had natural leadership abilities, organization, and the ability to take charge and demand respect. Obviously, I'm not actually an ESTJ, but a lot of the positive attributes carry over to ESFJ (hence twinning with [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]). It actually wasn't until I joined the forum that I realized some people thought there was something wrong with being an SJ. I never thought they were better than any other type, but based on descriptions they seemed like an integral role in society. Let's be real, if everyone in the world were an SJ the world wouldn't be a spectacular place. But, a world without any SJs would also be a disaster.




See, this is where the type influenced values comes into play. The fact that I am uncreative doesn't bother me in the slightest. Sure, it's embarrassing when I play pictionary or something and I can only draw stick figures. But does it actually bother me? Nope. I;m glad there are creative people in the world, but personally I would much rather have my shit together and be known as a responsible adult than be able to take award winning pictures. NPs don't know why anyone would want to be an SJ. Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to be an NP. I like having my head firmly attached to neck and down to earth, rather than up in the clouds.

creative vs artistic ability are two different things. I think you're some what creative. but because you can't draw who cares? i can't. the point is, the whole SJs can't be creative is bullshit put out by the n's-who are comparable to white males thinking minorities are ruining their lives.

 

[miss fortune]

See, this is where the type influenced values comes into play. The fact that I am uncreative doesn't bother me in the slightest. Sure, it's embarrassing when I play pictionary or something and I can only draw stick figures. But does it actually bother me? Nope. I;m glad there are creative people in the world, but personally I would much rather have my shit together and be known as a responsible adult than be able to take award winning pictures. NPs don't know why anyone would want to be an SJ. Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to be an NP. I like having my head firmly attached to neck and down to earth, rather than up in the clouds.

I'm an ARTISAN type and I can't draw, so don't feel bad

plus, you DO have artistic hobbies if I recall correctly... baking can be a definite form of delicious, edible artistry... and many types of textile making are also artistic just because they're practical arts doesn't mean that they don't require creativity... just a different type of creativity

 

[Tellenbach]

I love ISFJs and ESFJs. I hope I'm fortunate enough to find one to settle down with.

I like being an ISTJ because I see through all deception, manipulation, and irrational nonsense. Bias doesn't bother me because I recognize it as such and I have no expectations of anyone, nor do I care how others perceive me. Think of me as an owl. Do owls give a shit about bias? No they don't.

 

[Evee]

I love ISFJs and ESFJs. I hope I'm fortunate enough to find one to settle down with.

I like being an ISTJ because I see through all deception, manipulation, and irrational nonsense. Bias doesn't bother me because I recognize it as such and I have no expectations of anyone, nor do I care how others perceive me. Think of me as an owl. Do owls give a shit about bias? No they don't.

How old are you? I would imagine all the SFJs would be snatched up quite quickly!

 

[Tellenbach]

I would imagine all the SFJs would be snatched up quite quickly!

Plus, I'm not very competitive and I don't have a sense of urgency so it'll probably be quite a while before this happens. Oh well, if it happens, it happens; if not, then it wasn't meant to be.

 

[Coriolis]

I have a couple of things to think about. If SJ's claim that they are alright with the disproportionate amount of passive aggressive dislike/ 'unfair stereotypes' they recieve- then I don't really know what to say. I suppose more power to them.

Are you doing your own stereotyping here - assuming how all SJ's will or should react to these comments?

You realize that you read SJ descriptors and find them negative because they are your shadow? When I read an SJ description to my husband, he does find it a bit lacking in spaces, but the words dutiful, responsible, organized, security, tradition ... these aren't shameful words to SJs. They are words to take pride in and live up to. Through the lens of the shadow is where they take on a more 2-dimensional bent.

Every type has certain buzzwords associated with it that can come across as two-dimensional, if one digs no deeper.

I like african americans just as long as they don't try to subject me to their african american values, they create great rap music though. But they are absolutely great in theory- right guys? Right?

People of any type are easier to like when they are not using their various "type gifts" to impose themselves and their agenda on others. Individuals of any type can do this; it just looks different depending on who and which type they are.

And I appreciate you for explicitly stating your feelings, but I see people liking stuff like this and then claiming to have no bias or ignoring any bias against SJ's, and it really just furthers the point that this and anything else more low level is perfectly fine, and will even be applauded- all while the idea of what is being done is rejected. As long as the tone isn't obviously negative- any other message is absolutely fine.

Well, I will readily admit bias to certain kinds of behavior, including speaking without thinking, insisting on slavish adherance to rules regardless of outcome, habitual tardiness, and being unreliable. If people of a specific type tend to display one or more of these behaviors more than other types, odds are I will like fewer people of that type, NOT because of their type, but because of the behavior. Behavior is at most loosely tied to type, though, and many people learn to recognize the things they do that rub folks the wrong way, and work to curb it. Others don't. The best boss and the worst boss I have ever had have both been STJs. This might be simply because there are alot of STJs in management (is that stereotyping??). It does illustrate, however, how the same underlying type preferences can lead to very different behavior, results, and interactions with others.

Put another way using your earlier analogy: dislike of rap music is not the same thing as bias against African-Americans.

But before anyone goes, but that's life! I don't see the same thing going on with other typology systems- it is different when there is an association of lesser and greater.

Any assertion of lesser and greater in MBTI goes squarely against the original intent of Katherine Briggs and Isabel Briggs Myers who originated the system.

It actually wasn't until I joined the forum that I realized some people thought there was something wrong with being an SJ. I never thought they were better than any other type, but based on descriptions they seemed like an integral role in society. Let's be real, if everyone in the world were an SJ the world wouldn't be a spectacular place. But, a world without any SJs would also be a disaster.

Some NT's don't realize until they join a forum like thisi that there's nothing wrong with being NT. It's always eye-opening to see the perspectives of others.

Bottom line: every type is stereotyped, oversimplified, joked about in ways more unkind than humorous, given backhanded compliments, outright insulted, etc. etc. I suppose this just means that SJs are no more (or less) special than anyone else.

 

[Dr Mobius]

It's cool though, I understand everyone means well, even when they come off as a poop face

That we are also united only in our desire to subjugate the other types into the New World Order in service to The Man is something only discussed at meetings. And here, evidently

Very droll, and nice anchorman reference.

Maybe, I don't know. Some SJs may feel that way when they read these kind of posts. I know I certainly don't. Truthfully I take it as a fluff piece, someone trying to brighten the place up, and I always appreciate anyone's positive energy. I'll leave it to them to comment.

Oh I don't mean to imply intentional ill/bad intentions. Its just..... how do I put it. Given the tiny portion of the forums population SJs represent, and the inherent self absorption of being human. Is the result ever going to end in anything other then narcissistic self-congratulatory back patting? Ah I'm all word salad at the moment; best if I disappear I think.

 

[tinker683]

Oh I don't mean to imply intentional ill/bad intentions. Its just..... how do I put it. Given the tiny portion of the forums population SJs represent, and the inherent self absorption of being human. Is the result ever going to end in anything other then narcissistic self-congratulatory back patting? Ah I'm all word salad at the moment; best if I disappear I think.

Actually, I think I get what you're saying, and I would actually agree with you, but I don't think it can be helped. Intuitive's, from what I understand, are a minority and from what I've seen a lot of the N's around here have had a lot of bad experiences with dealing with some of the worst aspects of us Sensor-folk. As such, to me, any negative perception that may or may not permeate these forums doesn't surprise me. We're all human, we all want to relate and be a part of a group, so I'm not surprised by the SJ bashing that goes along.

So...yeah, I can see how threads like this might seem kind of patronizing to some. Not to me, but to some.

Was that what you were getting at or did I misunderstand you?

 

[Frosty]

Are you doing your own stereotyping here - assuming how all SJ's will or should react to these comments?

No- you define something rigidly- don't introduce anything further- and people attach positive sentiment to the best aspects off those stereotypes that they can find. Tell a bird that it can't fly and eventually it might believe you, accept that there is nothing to be done about it, no development to be had, and miss out on the possibility to fly that could be achieved by potentially an alternative measure- even if they might not fly as well as other birds might.

I don't see the same sentiment taken as seriously in reverse.

Every type has certain buzzwords associated with it that can come across as two-dimensional, if one digs no deeper.

This is part of the problem.

People of any type are easier to like when they are not using their various "type gifts" to impose themselves and their agenda on others. Individuals of any type can do this; it just looks different depending on who and which type they are.

Well, I will readily admit bias to certain kinds of behavior, including speaking without thinking, insisting on slavish adherance to rules regardless of outcome, habitual tardiness, and being unreliable. If people of a specific type tend to display one or more of these behaviors more than other types, odds are I will like fewer people of that type, NOT because of their type, but because of the behavior. Behavior is at most loosely tied to type, though, and many people learn to recognize the things they do that rub folks the wrong way, and work to curb it. Others don't. The best boss and the worst boss I have ever had have both been STJs. This might be simply because there are alot of STJs in management (is that stereotyping??). It does illustrate, however, how the same underlying type preferences can lead to very different behavior, results, and interactions with others.

Put another way using your earlier analogy: dislike of rap music is not the same thing as bias against African-Americans.

No. I'll try to clear that up later, possibly again,-faults on me but for right now no.

Any assertion of lesser and greater in MBTI goes squarely against the original intent of Katherine Briggs and Isabel Briggs Myers who originated the system.

People don't always adhere to systems, and subjective opinion is liable to- if agreed upon enough, replace and obscure objective 'fact'.

Some NT's don't realize until they join a forum like thisi that there's nothing wrong with being NT. It's always eye-opening to see the perspectives of others.

Does an SJ always have the same experience? Is the reason so few join simply disinterest, or is it because...

game playing

something else?

Bottom line: every type is stereotyped, oversimplified, joked about in ways more unkind than humorous, given backhanded compliments, outright insulted, etc. etc. I suppose this just means that SJs are no more (or less) special than anyone else.

Maybe, and I have nothing to an extent against boxes- they are a good way to understand people/characteristics- baseline processes, but when the boxes are so small that the only thing that can be taken from them is recycled garbage, out of what I believe to be fear of that box invalidating the other box then I think there is an issue.