Sin and MBTI

[Take Five]

As a fellow Catholic, I agree with Peguy on this one. I don't see religion and gospel inherently contradicting each other. Indeed, there are several interpretations of scripture and several religions. And as we should all know by now, the biblical books were written in particular contexts, by people, in time, in a culture, and with a message.

 

[Argus]

I would postulate that the general the differences between Catholicism and Christianity arn't great enough to make them opponents.
I believe there are many Jesus loving Catholics
This is where we join hands and sing Koom By Ya

Jesus is the JD

 

[Take Five]

I am so proud of the Catholic Church. John Paul II was a BAMF who ripped the Communists. Love it. And I think actions as well as intentions matter, and that religion is a great blessing.

 

[Sniffles]

[youtube="SCot5L54-dE"]Beauty of Catholicism[/youtube]

Take Five, do you attend Latin masses?

 

[Thalassa]

[youtube="SCot5L54-dE"]Beauty of Catholicism[/youtube]

Take Five, do you attend Latin masses?

This is lovely, Peguy. I find something about Catholic ritual very peaceful, soothing, and aesthetically pleasing. I have been to mass several times and once considered converting to Catholicism before joining a Lutheran church. I think that the Catholic church is wonderful in the erudition of their leaders and the care of their people and the community, and it's highly preferable to many other forms of Christianity - except for the rigidity of the dogma. There are just certain things I cannot agree with...the exclusivity of communion, etc.

 

[compulsiverambler]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Christian. I am fairly familiar with the Bible, however.

Briochick, Jesus never sinned, isn't that right? Yet when you read the New Testament, do you see a Christ who was never melancholy, never emotional, never despairing? I don't. Look at the passages about him in the Garden of Gethsemane, and what he said when on the cross. Read about the time he drove traders out of the synagogue. As for inaction, do you know the story of the raising of Lazarus? It's harder to say whether or not he daydreamed, but parables are hard to come up with if you're never pausing to daydream or something like it, and he certainly spent a lot of time alone. So how can those things be sinful?

I would imagine most Christians wouldn't be comfortable with trying to type Jesus, but I as someone with no such concerns, along with most people I've seen analyse him, interpret his personality as portrayed in the New Testament as INFx. So I don't think you need worry about your personality type being sinful.

 

[Usehername]

Okay, really I just put that title up because it was the most attention catching thing I could think of that was vaguely related to what I want to ask about.

I've been listening to a lot of people (by a lot I mean...three, maybe four, lol) at my church talk about sin. I've heard what they're saying echoed before at nearly every church I've ever attended (I went to this one that was really more of just a social place, neither faith nor religious study nor social activism were really priorities for them, they didn't talk about sin). What I'm hearing is that self-focus is a sin, inaction is a sin (but so is being busy for business sake), self-hate is a sin, melancholy is a sin, being despairing is a sin. Day dreaming is a sin. Taking time for yourself is a sin. Trying to take care of yourself is a sin. Not using your talents is a sin.

I'm pretty sure that *being* and INFP is a sin. I'm pretty freaked out by my conclusion. Not that I'm having a crisis of faith, I'm not, but I feel like I'm stuck in some sort of black hole were the very essence of what I am is what I'm not supposed to be. Am I missing something here? Am I taking their statements to extremes when they shouldn't be taken that way? If they weren't supposed to be taken to their natural conclusion than why didn't they qualify them?
For all I know I could be misinterpreting them. It doesn't stop my confusion.

They also seem to be authorities, they're older and smarter and leaders in the church and have attended Bible college. I'm just me. I'm well informed enough but maybe I missed something. Maybe. Maybe the most I can hope for is that God will wipe my personality clean and I'll be no one (they didn't say that, that's my natural conclusion).

I'd talk to these women about it but they'd tell me I'm sinning by being overly emotional (considering a topic of conversation at the last Bible study I'm *sure* they'd say that). And, since I already know what they'd say and feel guilty about it there's no need to ask them. So, any of you who are of the Faith here, I'd love an answer, because I can't see one.

I'm really battling through what I thought I read in the Bible and what I hear in sermons and how these ladies are taking the scripture.

Ok, so the other week I was feeling really discouraged and I asked them to pray for me and this one girl (a leader in the group though not *the* leader) said that instead I should pray for forgiveness. Like, since when did believing the lies of satan (eg. you're not enough, you're too much, you're not special, you suck) become a sin? I thought the original sin was eating the fruit, not listening to the lies? But since then I've become paranoid that every negative feeling I feel is a sin, and ever negative thought that enters my head that's discouraging is a sin. Does that make sense?

It's not my church's teachings, it's a few women in some of the small groups, particularly women who come from a local seminary. They're leaders but they don't preach, they're not deaconesses. I think they very much take the tone of "you're sinning and you feel guilty? Well, stop it!"

Any chance you can find your TJ shadow and dispassionately explain to them all the ways in which they are (a) inappropriately using their presumed authority and (b) ignorant of you/your strengths and themselves and their weaknesses and (c) the Bible itself?

There are INFP strengths all over the Bible. Don't forget to go looking for them. Look for patience, kindness, self-control wrt others, etc. I would also argue they sound like "out of the world" Xians rather than "in the world but not of it" Christians, which IMO NFPs are good at.

I've encountered experiences like these and luckily my NTJness just get so bristled inside that in my weaknesses I just dispassionately pwn'em. It helps to not mind conflict, IDK if those are things within your abilities/desires.

 

[briochick]

Wow, I go to sleep and there's five pages when I come back.
^_^
Usehername: I think I would have to be offended, not hurt, to pull out my TJ shadow. But, I can do it.

Compusliverambler: First, I like your sn. Second, you do make a good point.

Argus: I liked what you said about religion vs. the gospel (though other good points regarding Catholicism were also made later). What does Kierkegaard have to do with all this?

Cafe: You made some great points and thank you for the encouragement. Lol, I also fear I will become an old church lady. But in defense of those blue hairs, they are often the ones to financially support the church out of their pensions.

Jennifer: yeah. It's really easy to want to be good because you (by that I mean I) want to please God and then all these people come in with all this stuff do to and not do to be good and I just find myself overwhelmed. But that's not what the faith is supposed to be about.

 

[Hirsch63]

I've been listening to a lot of people at my church talk about sin. What I'm hearing is that self-focus is a sin, inaction is a sin self-hate is a sin, melancholy is a sin, being despairing is a sin. Day dreaming is a sin. Taking time for yourself is a sin. Trying to take care of yourself is a sin. Not using your talents is a sin....they're older and smarter and leaders in the church and have attended Bible college.....they'd tell me I'm sinning by being overly emotional.

It sounds to me as if your Elders consider anything you do that might be an inconvenience to them a sin. I have found it typical throughout my experience with various groups that there is a tendency for many to use the cloth of religion to clothe themselves as police, judge and jury rather than samaritan, healer and counselor....

FWIW, my explorations lead me to this: Jesus spoke about the law, and the law is known by ten familiar admonitions. To "sin" is to literally miss the mark
as if taking a shot in archery and missing. Your honest intent was to hit the bullseye. Despite your effort, you failed in a sincere attempt. This to me is sin, being human we may err and are subject to our mortal chains. Sin can be forgiven.

Evil is another thing: The intentional disregard of the law for personal gratification.

Thou shalt not mope?
Thou shalt not imagine?
Thou shalt not feel?

You are right to question this sort of thing...though it would be insincere to deny that Jesus did admonish turning your focus outward to those in need. We all differ and what takes one person a year to achieve may take another a decade to realize. That is not a sin if the effort was there all along.

 

[Lark]

I'm a Roman Catholic, I'm pretty traditional in some ways and pretty modernist in others, I think that despite Stalin scoffing "how many battalions has he?" when he heard about Papal condemnation of communism that the RC faith was threatening to totalitarianism (not because its totalitarian itself). I'm also a proponant of liberation theology, mainly as understood by Jose Miranda and Leonardo Boff but LT's a tradition not a fixed set of tenants like a canon law.

I do think its important to have a perspective on right-wrong, true-false, vice-virtue, for thinking people it can give much to muse about and give rise to many a real abstract discussion but I think practically Nietzsche's "beyond good and evil" idea is rubbish, you can be extra good or extra evil but you can not transcend both, context or culture or back drop is also important but I do believe that there are universal norms to be discovered through reflection, revelation, reasoning just as there are universal laws in the physical sciences.

To categorise everything as a sin is just as much nonsense to categorise nothing as a sin, Jesus was pretty clear in attempting to straighten out all the misunderstanding up until his life and ministry, these concepts, they're meant to serve man, they're meant to make the life we have here the joy/paradise it was intended to be.

I dont like the tendency of some non-canonical communities of Christians to invert the authority of the RC church and brand it heretical, the reformation was tragic and a total failure, it destroyed the change within the RC institutions and society itself which were progressing a pace and only sort of work themselves out through the couner-reformation (it took until Vatican Two and later for things to really be set straighter), it also unleashed forces which went on to become the progenitors of capitalism, gross modernity (ie Machine Age Holocaust) etc.

 

[incubustribute]

Wow. I'm a Christian and I attend church...but I've never heard people come right out and tell each other that they're sinning just because someone's being over emotional or they're day dreaming and such. I think that if someone is going to point those things out, they need to look at themselves and see what sins of the bible they're doing.

In the bible it does talk about some of those things being sin. I'm not sure of all of them, but from what I've studied of my bible, thats what I've read so far. BUT, we're all people and we all sin. You cannot point your finger at someone and tell them they're sinning and totally let them know they're horrible or whatever for it if you yourself sin. [by you i mean other people who point fingers].

(I'm gonna get into a bit of faith talk for a moment)

With that, it also plays into my faith that Jesus Christ died for our sins. We're all sinners. I'm a huge sinner. My goodness, if you knew the stuff I did you'd either shriek of shock or you'd nod your head in agreement. By all means, I'm no better than anybody else. The only thing that sets me apart [in my faith] is that I believe Jesus Christ is my savior and Lord. I believe He wipes away all sins if you just ask and believe.
I don't think we should be freaking out and going "oh my gosh, thats a sin, oh no!", because its our nature to do so. We'll continue sinning until we die. I think the big picture is that someone can take away your sins and you'll be made new.

So for Christians who want to pick out every sin in the bible and condemn those who sin...they've missed the point of who Jesus is and his teachings. All in all, we're to love Him, love others, love ourselves.
So don't you listen to those who are condemning. They haven't figured out what its all about. You are YOU. You were created an INFP, because we need you as an INFP.


I do hope that I was able to shed some light for you. I've dealt with the same issue.

EDIT: All in all, the bible shows us that anything put above God is a sin. So if these things aren't getting in your way of putting God first, then I personally wouldn't say its sin. (I'm talking about day dreaming, taking care of yourself, and the likes) If those things get in the way of acknowledging that God is first, thats the problem. But I can't say those things in themselves are sinful.

I was about to rush into answering this, but then I read your post and you said everything I wanted to say!



I will direct some bible verses your way though that might help clear up this horrible mess.

"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
~Romans 14:22-23

Ecclesiastes 3 says there is a time for everything. This includes time to be sad and time to be happy!

"4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to hisfaith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully."
~Romans 12:4-8

God made you just how he wanted you and loves you no matter what you do and no matter what your Myers Briggs personality is! Consider Fi, Ne, Si, and Te gifts from God and not sins haha!

 

[incubustribute]

also,

They also seem to be authorities, they're older and smarter and leaders in the church and have attended Bible college. I'm just me.

Read 1 Peter, especially chapter 2. That book is all about how we are ALL a chosen people and are ALL priests through faith in Christ. There is no authority on earth (including your church elders) that supersedes the Word of God. He loves all his children equally - you are of the same value to him as all the pastors and elders and deacons and sunday school teachers, even the pope!

 

[Thalassa]

also,


Read 1 Peter, especially chapter 2. That book is all about how we are ALL a chosen people and are ALL priests through faith in Christ. There is no authority on earth (including your church elders) that supersedes the Word of God. He loves all his children equally - you are of the same value to him as all the pastors and elders and deacons and sunday school teachers, even the pope!

this is great

 

[briochick]

At first I read 2 Peter 2, and I was like 'Wait...What?'
Then I realized I had the wrong book. ^_^

 

[onemoretime]

There's no such thing as sin, just a wide continuum between purely altruistic and purely selfish behavior. What are defined as "sins" tend to be the more selfish acts.

 

[bcvcdc]

I'm pretty sure that *being* and INFP is a sin

You are right. Yes MBTi are evil. You are evil member of MBTI. You got that right.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Okay, really I just put that title up because it was the most attention catching thing I could think of that was vaguely related to what I want to ask about.

I've been listening to a lot of people (by a lot I mean...three, maybe four, lol) at my church talk about sin. I've heard what they're saying echoed before at nearly every church I've ever attended (I went to this one that was really more of just a social place, neither faith nor religious study nor social activism were really priorities for them, they didn't talk about sin). What I'm hearing is that self-focus is a sin, inaction is a sin (but so is being busy for business sake), self-hate is a sin, melancholy is a sin, being despairing is a sin. Day dreaming is a sin. Taking time for yourself is a sin. Trying to take care of yourself is a sin. Not using your talents is a sin.

I'm pretty sure that *being* and INFP is a sin. I'm pretty freaked out by my conclusion. Not that I'm having a crisis of faith, I'm not, but I feel like I'm stuck in some sort of black hole were the very essence of what I am is what I'm not supposed to be. Am I missing something here? Am I taking their statements to extremes when they shouldn't be taken that way? If they weren't supposed to be taken to their natural conclusion than why didn't they qualify them?
For all I know I could be misinterpreting them. It doesn't stop my confusion.

They also seem to be authorities, they're older and smarter and leaders in the church and have attended Bible college. I'm just me. I'm well informed enough but maybe I missed something. Maybe. Maybe the most I can hope for is that God will wipe my personality clean and I'll be no one (they didn't say that, that's my natural conclusion).

I'd talk to these women about it but they'd tell me I'm sinning by being overly emotional (considering a topic of conversation at the last Bible study I'm *sure* they'd say that). And, since I already know what they'd say and feel guilty about it there's no need to ask them. So, any of you who are of the Faith here, I'd love an answer, because I can't see one.

The solution to sin is not perfection. The solution to sin is grace. While I don't have the proper context of the things said in these conversations, those ladies are likely correct that all of these things are related to sinful things. I'm sure you have secrets and other things within you that you are ashamed of. I certainly have a lot of junk in me that I resent is part of me. In fact everyone has dark things lurking inside them that they are ashamed of. Changing your behavior will not solve your problems, because when you fix one problem you will only uncover more junk even further underneath.

Instead the solution is grace. We have to hide the things we are ashamed of from other people, but God knows about all of them. And God fully accepts us knowing about all of our secret shame. This is the most important example that Jesus has set for us. If God doesn't condemn people then we shouldn't condemn people either. This includes condemning ourself. The most important thing that a Christian can learn to do is to be accepting of others and to be accepting of themself.

But if we only accept all of these faults then how will anyone ever improve themself? There is a verse in Ephesians that (after talking about grace) says that we are God's "workmanship" created to do good deeds that he has prepared for us beforehand. The Greek word for "workmanship" here has the same root as the word for "poem". We are God's "poem". We are God's work of art.

God created each of us as works of art for a specific set of deeds that he has prepared for us beforehand. Instead of trying to follow a list of rules we should be trying to discover what deeds God has prepared for us. This sort of thing involves introspection and contemplating our place in the world. INFP's are lucky in this respect as this sort of thing comes naturally to them. Through introspection and trial and error we learn what our natural place is in the body of Christ.

And as works of art it is natural for us to accept our flaws. The Liberty Bell is known for its crack, the Tower of Pisa is known for its lean, and Marilyn Monroe is known for her mole. These flaws make the subject more beautiful instead of less. So instead of cursing your flaws accept them, and then strive to be a unique work of art created by God.

 

[Thalassa]

There's no such thing as sin, just a wide continuum between purely altruistic and purely selfish behavior. What are defined as "sins" tend to be the more selfish acts.

In Christianity sin is more than simply altruistic or selfish behavior - it's behavior that seperates us from God, usually because we are not acting in love toward God or our fellow man. I suppose you could define that as altruism vs. selfishness (pride is said to be the blackest sin, interestingly, even over murder) but that's not technically it to Christians.

 

[Sniffles]

This is lovely, Peguy. I find something about Catholic ritual very peaceful, soothing, and aesthetically pleasing. I have been to mass several times and once considered converting to Catholicism before joining a Lutheran church. I think that the Catholic church is wonderful in the erudition of their leaders and the care of their people and the community, and it's highly preferable to many other forms of Christianity - except for the rigidity of the dogma. There are just certain things I cannot agree with...the exclusivity of communion, etc.

What kind of Lutheran Church do you attend? I sometimes attend services at one associated with the Missouri Synod.

 

[Thalassa]

What kind of Lutheran Church do you attend? I sometimes attend services at one associated with the Missouri Synod.

When I lived in Las Vegas I was very active in one that is also associated with the Missouri Synod.

Since I have moved to WV I actually sometimes attend a Methodist church because it is in walking distance from my home. There is also a Catholic church, and I have considered attending mass there, but I know I can't take communion so that usually stops me. I am not as active in church as I was before I started college.