[INTP] Rant on INTPs

[Ghost of the dead horse]

6. They're too accepting of nature and truth, and don't question anything or anyone's right to exist/be true.

Huh! I find it an offensive and abhorrent idea that I would deny knowledge, observations or "truths" on basis on value judgements. There are much better ways to handle issues, hiding and denial doesn't solve anything. That is the most terrible thing to do. I think it's like not having guts to accept that some partial truth is opposed to your views. There are MUCH better ways to handle an unwanted "truth" inside your head. Here's a quick list..

-thinking that the "bad, no-rights-to-exist-truth" is only partial truth, and find out more
-thinking that there are opposing truths to the one truth found, and accept their possibility to exist, or perhaps to even find such truths
-noticing if the language of the "bad truth" and the "good old truth" is not exact enough
-noticing if the context of "acceptable truth" and "offensive truth" differ in the way as to make them both possible
-understanding that things lie in between "true" and "false", they can also be indeterminate (or unsolvable). An entire taxonomy exists for things not known certainly.

Disclaimer: even these can be used in intellectually lazy way. The author does not take responsibility in how this list is used. /end disclaimer

 

[cafe]

I think some of it can be self doubt. When you derive a decent amount of your self-worth from competence and you enjoy theorizing in your head, it can be hard to get out of your head and see whether or not you are competent. In your head you are competent. To act is to risk losing that. You can see why passivity would be tempting under those circumstances.

Also there is a temptation to continue to gather more and more information so you can make the perfect decision. But there is never enough information. It's easy (short term) to continue to gather information until life makes the decision for you. I can see why this would be tempting too.

Not everyone who acts in the external world or in consideration for others does so because they lack confidence. Sometimes it is a genuine sense of caring for other's well-being that drives them to act despite their lack of confidence and in so doing they gain it. I think this can be the case with INTPs. When they are forced by circumstances to act in the external world their obvious competence serves to build their confidence. I think sometimes it's those first couple of steps out there that get them. After that they are fine. Except for the part where they are surrounded by incompetents.

 

[wildcat]

INTPs dont act too much in the external world not because of the self-doubt, but because they are content being where they are--in their inner world.

As a radical Thinking type they tend to be more confident than other types (strongest Thinking preferrence of all). They dont act out because they dont your reassurance and dont need external achievements in order to feel good about themselves.

Those who are most active in the external world tend to be the least confident and the most superficial. They take from the world because their inner being is empty, and they want to achieve by external standards because they dont trust themselves to craft their own standards. So, the EJs cant validate themselves and need for others to validate them because of this.

EFJs are the ones who tend to lack confidence, that is why they always want to act in a way that would win the approbation of others. When I asked one ENFJ how she deals with criticism--she answered that she doesnt get criticism, go figure.

EFJs would melt should they ever be at a point where others dont think that they are praiseworthy, so they always have to be on the go making sure that the whole world knows that they are good.

As Mr.Myiagi once answered to Julianne when she said something like..Let me have a belt so everyone can know that I am good.."You know that you're good and thats all that matters' he answered..--What belt do you have Mr.Myiagi..'Jc-Penny'....

So, in other words, ITPs, especially INTPs (Stronger Ti) dont need to act at all because they could care less for your approval or for external rewards because they just dont need those things to feel good about themselves. So, why bother waste energy, if you could just collect your energy from within. Its more conducive to your higher purpose (meeting the standard that really matters, not the one of other people) and it feels more natural, you dont burn your energy by being externally involved.

So, if there is one type that doesnt go lacking for self-confidence, it would definitely be the INTP because the INTP needs virtually no external support. The INTP relies on external support less than the ISTP (as you say, you dont feel that ISTPs are as passive as INTPs) because Intuition helps the INTP solidify their inner judgment in a way that ISTPs can not. ISTPs are passive as well for the same reason as INTPs, because they could care less about meeting some external standard, though less passive because their internal standard is not as firmly founded in their inner being as that of INTPs because sensation is less internally focused than intuition.

Of the Ss, the ISTPs appear to be the least field dependent.

Are they field independent?
No.

They are just as field dependent as the other Ss.
It is not about the field dependence.

It is about the field.

 

[cafe]

My version of a Fe-monster would be basically doing everything that is feared and dreaded about Fe purposefully, incessantly, and exponentially. I'd gather all of my Fe powers into the perfect storm and throw it at an INTP that I felt was exhibiting this. My main goal, I think, would be to get a reaction and break them, get them to stop being passive and do something. Just make their life the hell they thought they existed in but knew nothing about.

I do not know what types my in-laws are, but I know my mother-in-law is a J and my father-in-law is a P. She would try to get a reaction from him. Any reaction. Eventually she would get her reaction, but it made her the enemy and it made him withdraw from her. It has had the same effect on her relationship with her son, my husband.

This is why I have made an effort to avoid doing that kind of thing. I might get a reaction, but he would resent me and he would distance himself from me and I would gain nothing.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

6. They're too accepting of nature and truth, and don't question anything or anyone's right to exist/be true.

Need for closure and lack of imagination in a given subject is a terrible combination. It is a breeding ground for lines like "I can't think of anything else so this is how it must be".

Every truth is also an evidence for something else, for information is a network. Some facts require that you accumulate evidence in the long run, in many pieces. If you dismiss every piece of evidence as "not having right to exist", you end up never accumulating the critical mass of evidence you would need to re-consider your truths.

I feel that the world of truth is kind and accepting, and that knowing everything would reveal some nasties, but it would not threaten my existense or well-being nor would it make personal views, opinions or value judgements impossible.

If you put your mind to it, you can accept the existence of nasty truths and not let it ruin your day. There's so much more to all issues than what can be emotionally felt at any one time.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I think some of it can be self doubt. When you derive a decent amount of your self-worth from competence and you enjoy theorizing in your head, it can be hard to get out of your head and see whether or not you are competent. In your head you are competent. To act is to risk losing that. You can see why passivity would be tempting under those circumstances.

Also there is a temptation to continue to gather more and more information so you can make the perfect decision. But there is never enough information. It's easy (short term) to continue to gather information until life makes the decision for you. I can see why this would be tempting too.

:

I know that to you, as an Extroverted Judger this will be baffling---but, INPs do not to be deemed competent by an external standard. If you're sure that your inner standard is sound and you do well by that standard, you're fine. Though the search for a better standard and how to be as competent as possible is a perennial quest. So whilst the J may be rest content after having met the external agenda, for the INP is always an unended quest.

INTPs often doubt this or that particular internal agenda that they have, though they rarely tend to doubt their ability to come up with the best standard possible and be as competent as possible in the future---as they know that there are not limitations on their quest because it derives internally. And confidence tends to derive not from fulfilling this or that particular agenda, but rather from the notion that the INTP is able to carry on the quest with sufficient competence.

So, to correct my previous statement; if you know you have a sound inner standard that you fulfill, this will be a bonus to your confidence, though not the source of it. The source of it is the notion of your ability to carry on the perennial quest.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Of the Ss, the ISTPs appear to be the least field dependent.

Are they field independent?
No.

They are just as field dependent as the other Ss.
It is not about the field dependence.

It is about the field.

ISTPs are less field dependent than other sensors because they are more internally focused (IP), more tough-minded (dominant T), and more innovative than most sensors.( Tertiary Ni)

 

[cafe]

I know that to you, as an Extroverted Judger this will be baffling---but, INPs do not to be deemed competent by an external standard. If you're sure that your inner standard is sound and you do well by that standard, you're fine. Though the search for a better standard and how to be as competent as possible is a perennial quest. So whilst the J may be rest content after having met the external agenda, for the INP is always an unended quest.

INTPs often doubt this or that particular internal agenda that they have, though they rarely tend to doubt their ability to come up with the best standard possible and be as competent as possible in the future---as they know that there are not limitations on their quest because it derives internally.

They may not need to be deemed competent by an external standard but they dislike being proven incompetent or looking ridiculous to others when it is not their intent to do so.

Why would the quest end? There is always more to be learned. That would be like saying an INFJ could feel they have arrived at their final and best stage of evolution while they are still living.

INTPs can have their confidence built by applying what they know IRL and seeing that they are good. They may not always feel it completely and they will always feel there is more to learn just like an INFJ will always feel they could have done better, tried harder, been more virtuous, but that does not mean they gain nothing from testing their theories and competencies in the lab of life.


FWIW, I find very little baffling. Only unprovoked and intentional cruelty truly ever baffles me. And there is little need to refer to the qualities of the person you are arguing against in order to prove your own argument. If your argument cannot stand on it's own it is a poor argument.

 

[ygolo]

I think some of it can be self doubt. When you derive a decent amount of your self-worth from competence and you enjoy theorizing in your head, it can be hard to get out of your head and see whether or not you are competent. In your head you are competent. To act is to risk losing that. You can see why passivity would be tempting under those circumstances.

This, I think, stems from a poor theory about theorizing and theories. Theories are made to be used. The intermediate theories are just rough drafts, to be tested and refined (and this testing and refining is what "theorizing" is). Testing requires geting data about the world. How reliable the sources are varies, but it is not possible to "theorize in your head" (Unless you have an astounding memory and just happened to have come across all the data you need already. A little self-dobt should cure one of that mistaken impression).

There is no dichotomy between being "in my head" and being out of it. I enjoy my food more when I analyze the taste and texture as I eat it. I enjoy my conversations more when I analyze (out loud, if the participants humor me) what is being said and what it could mean. I enjoy my work more when I analyze the context, and philosophize about how it fits into the grand scheme of things. There is no thinking without doing, and no doing without thinking (as far as I'm concerned).

Also there is a temptation to continue to gather more and more information so you can make the perfect decision. But there is never enough information. It's easy (short term) to continue to gather information until life makes the decision for you. I can see why this would be tempting too.

I also don't understand this sterotype. I have not met INTPs IRL who let decisions make themselves, if those decisions were seen as important to them. Misjudgements about importance, yes. Letting "unimportant" decisions make themsleves (very much yes).

 

[cafe]

I also don't understand this sterotype. I have not met INTPs IRL who let decisions make themselves, if those decisions were seen as important to them. Misjudgements about importance, yes. Letting "unimportant" decisions make themsleves (very much yes).

In this instance, I am making no stereotype. It's hard, unpleasant, and scary experience. As the spouse of an INTP encountered this more than once.

My husband's need for autonomy put me in a position of not being able to make a decision without putting a relational wedge between us, but he also would be unable to cease analyzing and make a decision, hence circumstances would make the decision for us and often the results were unpleasant. That is not to say that all INTPs suffer from this, but some definitely do.

My husband does not do this anymore, but it was a change wrought by bad experiences not by his nature.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

FWIW, I find very little baffling. Only unprovoked and intentional cruelty truly ever baffles me. And there is little need to refer to the qualities of the person you are arguing against in order to prove your own argument. If your argument cannot stand on it's own it is a poor argument.

I said ' as an extroverted judger you may find it baffling'. This is the quality of temperament, not quality of personality I am alluding to. The two can be very easily seperated. So, a more representative phraseology of the idea at hand would be 'this may be difficult for you to conceive of because it runs contrary to the way your mind tends to go about setting up standards'.

A J person would be less likely to relate to how a P goes by inner standards in making decisions, though they still could gain an understanding of how Ps make decisions on the theoretical level. Thus, such a statement of how a J may be baffled only applies to their temperament and not to personality.

Yes, INTPs dislike being unsuccessful by external standards, but that is no more than a minor bump on the road. It isn't going to undermine their overall sense of self-confidence.

 

[ygolo]

In this instance, I am making no stereotype. It's hard, unpleasant, and scary experience. As the spouse of an INTP encountered this more than once.

My husband's need for autonomy put me in a position of not being able to make a decision without putting a relational wedge between us, but he also would be unable to cease analyzing and make a decision, hence circumstances would make the decision for us and often the results were unpleasant. That is not to say that all INTPs suffer from this, but some definitely do.

My husband does not do this anymore, but it was a change wrought by bad experiences not by his nature.

In my experience, delay comes from two sources, fear and distraction. I think it is fairly natural for INTPs to delay due to being distracted. But procrastination due to fear is something else entirely and I think it can afflict any MBTI type with high Neurosis.

 

[cafe]

In my experience, delay comes from two sources, fear and distraction. I think it is fairly natural for INTPs to delay due to being distracted. But procrastination due to fear is something else entirely and I think it can afflict any MBTI type with high Neurosis.

That would make sense. But the way those factors play out is in endless analysis and information gathering. The INTP is afraid they will make the wrong decision so they continue to seek more information. Or else they are so distracted by the gathering of information that they do not make the decision.

 

[Sahara]

That would make sense. But the way those factors play out is in endless analysis and information gathering. The INTP is afraid they will make the wrong decision so they continue to seek more information. Or else they are so distracted by the gathering of information that they do not make the decision.

Is that just an INTP thing, or an INP thing, because I do that alot.

 

[ygolo]

That would make sense. But the way those factors play out is in endless analysis and information gathering. The INTP is afraid they will make the wrong decision so they continue to seek more information. Or else they are so distracted by the gathering of information that they do not make the decision.

I think it is very important to distinguish between the two cases.

• In the case of distraction, a simple suggestion to act "clinically" can alleviate that problem. Weigh the cost of false negatives and false positives and simply pick a "default" decision before continuing analysis. Then a decision is already "made". It is simply a refinement, and one can pick the best choice (or current default) at the necessary time.
  
• In the case of fear, what is going on is not analysis, it is vacilation (perhaps this is the same thing for other types, but not for INTPs, at least not the ones I know). There is likely very little analysis going on, rather the use of some feeling function. IMO, trying to force them to "stop analyzing" is the wrong thing in this case. In fact, the best advice may be to "start analyzing" (clinically).

 

[ygolo]

Is that just an INTP thing, or an INP thing, because I do that alot.

I think fear based procrastination is universal. The distraction thing may be for all Ps.

 

[cafe]

[*]In the case of fear, what is going on is not analysis, it is vacilation (perhaps this is the same thing for other types, but not for INTPs, at least not the ones I know). There is likely very little analysis going on, rather the use of some feeling function. IMO, trying to force them to "stop analyzing" is the wrong thing in this case. In fact, the best advice may be to "start analyzing" (clinically).

Heh. It's one of those things where you are on the river in a canoe and you see the waterfall ahead and the other person will not let go of the oars and they cannot choose which side to paddle to. Who cares? Just please, for the love of God, choose a side or give me the paddles. We can figure the rest out after we aren't dead.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Is that just an INTP thing, or an INP thing, because I do that alot.

Yes, this is an INP thing.

Introverted Judgment always makes judgments internally without any clear-cut external end--often is unable to satisfy its internal agenda, so it has to keep on moving to ensure that the inner agenda is satisfied. The only way to do this is to collect more information or keep on thinking. Hence, we are stuck here between either retreating deep in thought and shutting off our perceptions, or not making decisions at all because we simply dont have the right faculties, so then we just have to focus on collecting information and forget about making decisions.

ENPs usually have an easier time maneuvering their way around the external environment to avoid making decisions altogether, and have an easier time adapting, so unlike the INPs their decisions dont need to be so rigorously in tune with their inner standard. ENPs are more likely to get paralyzed collecting informaiton just like INPs, though to their own downfall, tend not get stuck deep in thought attempting to make the best decisions possible. For this reason INPs tend to be better decision makers, they are more reflective (I), and have a stronger judging function.

Procrastination is mostly a property of P. We usually use the term procrastination to refer to tasks that we are obligated to do. Ps tend to be more concerned with doing tasks that they want to do first and foremost, and because of such an intense focus on that, the obligatory tasks tend to be postponed.

 

[ygolo]

Heh. It's one of those things where you are on the river in a canoe and you see the waterfall ahead and the other person will not let go of the oars and they cannot choose which side to paddle to. Who cares? Just please, for the love of God, choose a side or give me the paddles. We can figure the rest out after we aren't dead.

Still, analysis would make it abundantly clear that it is time to act. So he is not analysing (or he is severly confused).

Clinical desicion making is an easy habit to pick up. Make a decision first then analyse, then pick again.... If at anytime you have to act, act on the last decision made. At least that's how I do it.

 

[proteanmix]

Are your brother and friends like what you expect?

My brother (and sis who's ISTP) show signs of this behavior, but it's not bad. I don't expect any RL INTP to do this and if they did, I'd just avoid them as much as possible so no trouble would begin. I'd say my friend shows more of this than family (but of course that could be bias).

This is not something that could cause dread in me, but is rather likely to insite anger (That is till I found out you were doing it just to get a reaction out of me, at which point, I would simply not react).

I'd get a reaction Maybe not one I'd like, but a reaction nevertheless.

And I must reiterate, I wouldn't do this, I'm not that malevolent. I don't want people to start getting upset.