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[Fi] Rant about Fi

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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When I was in conflict with loved ones who are Fi-doms, it was during a time when a lot was changing in my life and I didn't communicate with them all of the details. As a result they imagined and exaggerated aspects of my life and internal feelings based on their fears. During the time of heightened emotion, I didn't find it useful to try to hash out all the details and resolve the emotional rift with lots of talking. This is because it felt sooooooo complicated, like going spelunking in caverns for which there was no map or supplies to sustain the journey. For the time I focused on keeping the interaction light and positive. I gave tangible gifts that I thought would stabilize the assumptions as a clear reminder that I care about them, and I shared cute, funny emails and posts.

While I'm an NF capable of internal feelings becoming too complicated myself, I tend to find that when that is occurring in someone else, that it is just too much to try to resolve the two internal complicated worlds. It is better to focus on the simplest, kindest, lightest common denominator, and then gradually over time the misperceptions can recalibrate based on observable, concrete behaviors and exchanges of ideas.

This is what I can say about Fi right now - I'm actually in a state of being a bit confused about it, not knowing for certain if I use it more than Fe. I'm sure my mother is a Fi-dom, so what I describe here does relate to that. My sister has always tested as an INFP, but she could be an ISFJ. The closer I am to someone the harder it is to type them because I can usually see instances of all 8 functions with different emphases over time. fwiw
 

Amargith

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^I do admit that that is a good approach, especially if the Fi-user in question just isn't ready yet, does not want to face things or be aware of them yet. it helps them stabilise and tip the scales of that fear of abandonment/rejection/failure back into the relief of 'Oh, good, they do care about me - for whatever reason.'

It's a great tactic for symptom management through troubled times in general (regardless of type or personality). Personally, I tend to be one for digging out the root and fixing that but that's just not always feasible. I just have too many nightmares of festering emotional gaps that are so filled with toxic waste that nobody dares to go near it, and that landfill just keeps growing and growing over the years, so I sometimes forget that symptom management doesn't have to be a bad thing and can actually be incredibly useful in guiding the process along :D
 

Siúil a Rúin

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^I do admit that that is a good approach, especially if the Fi-user in question just isn't ready yet, does not want to face things or be aware of them yet. it helps them stabilise and tip the scales of that fear of abandonment/rejection/failure back into the relief of 'Oh, good, they do care about me - for whatever reason.'

It's a great tactic for symptom management through troubled times in general (regardless of type or personality). Personally, I tend to be one for digging out the root and fixing that but that's just not always feasible. I just have too many nightmares of festering emotional gaps that are so filled with toxic waste that nobody dares to go near it, and that landfill just keeps growing and growing over the years, so I sometimes forget that symptom management doesn't have to be a bad thing and can actually be incredibly useful in guiding the process along :D
Initially I tried to start by hashing things out with thorough communication, but what I find with myself and other NFs (perhaps everyone) is that the emotional reasoning is highly complex and skilled, so when it gets distorted it can be confusing on a level that transcends everything. The distortions can be worked into complex, but accurate reasoning, so the more words that get tossed about, the more complex the reasoning and ideas, but still messed up with the underlying distortions. If that sounds confusing then it probably represents the experiences I've had in-and-outside of myself with loved ones. :) Even if the other person has completely misperceived me, their reasoning can be very convincing, but still wrong. I end up getting more confused rather than less. Taking the opposite approach to abstract, complex emotional reasoning is the simple and concrete. The rest has worked itself out quite well for my specific experience, so I hope it would be helpful for others as well.
 

Amargith

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Initially I tried to start by hashing things out with thorough communication, but what I find with myself and other NFs (perhaps everyone) is that the emotional reasoning is highly complex and skilled, so when it gets distorted it can be confusing on a level that transcends everything. The distortions can be worked into complex, but accurate reasoning, so the more words that get tossed about, the more complex the reasoning and ideas, but still messed up with the underlying distortions. If that sounds confusing then it probably represents the experiences I've had in-and-outside of myself with loved ones. :) Even if the other person has completely misperceived me, their reasoning can be very convincing, but still wrong. I end up getting more confused rather than less. Taking the opposite approach to abstract, complex emotional reasoning is the simple and concrete. The rest has worked itself out quite well for my specific experience, so I hope it would be helpful for others as well.

Interesting...huh. I agree that going abstract and complex just tends to make things worse. I usually try to use analogies and anecdotes/stories to make things more concrete and illustrate my point. And I try to keep it short so they can mull things over, before we get into confusing/butthurt and defensive territory instead. But I could stand to add more actions and simple things to my approach, I think. :thinking:
 

Poki

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When I was in conflict with loved ones who are Fi-doms, it was during a time when a lot was changing in my life and I didn't communicate with them all of the details. As a result they imagined and exaggerated aspects of my life and internal feelings based on their fears. During the time of heightened emotion, I didn't find it useful to try to hash out all the details and resolve the emotional rift with lots of talking. This is because it felt sooooooo complicated, like going spelunking in caverns for which there was no map or supplies to sustain the journey. For the time I focused on keeping the interaction light and positive. I gave tangible gifts that I thought would stabilize the assumptions as a clear reminder that I care about them, and I shared cute, funny emails and posts.

While I'm an NF capable of internal feelings becoming too complicated myself, I tend to find that when that is occurring in someone else, that it is just too much to try to resolve the two internal complicated worlds. It is better to focus on the simplest, kindest, lightest common denominator, and then gradually over time the misperceptions can recalibrate based on observable, concrete behaviors and exchanges of ideas.

This is what I can say about Fi right now - I'm actually in a state of being a bit confused about it, not knowing for certain if I use it more than Fe. I'm sure my mother is a Fi-dom, so what I describe here does relate to that. My sister has always tested as an INFP, but she could be an ISFJ. The closer I am to someone the harder it is to type them because I can usually see instances of all 8 functions with different emphases over time. fwiw

Are you INFJ? That sounds very IxFJ In the sense where they have this vision of what they want and that disconnect doesn't fit so they flip back to the happy and positive side of things. I have an ISFJ friend that does this...it almost seems fake, but there is something about it that keeps ithe from actually being categorized as fake. Almost like a no one can be like that, but she is...guess it's a conflict between Se and Ni. I still always trust more what I pick up from senses then I do from intuition. My senses pick up the authenticity from her that tells me it's not fake.

Not all are like this, but I have noticed this shift more in IxFJ, INxP while similiar have a different internal structure to this. Which makes them seem more detached from Fe and more attached to Fi.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Are you INFJ? That sounds very IxFJ In the sense where they have this vision of what they want and that disconnect doesn't fit so they flip back to the happy and positive side of things. I have an ISFJ friend that does this...it almost seems fake, but there is something about it that keeps ithe from actually being categorized as fake. Almost like a no one can be like that, but she is...guess it's a conflict between Se and Ni. I still always trust more what I pick up from senses then I do from intuition. My senses pick up the authenticity from her that tells me it's not fake.

Not all are like this, but I have noticed this shift more in IxFJ, INxP while similiar have a different internal structure to this. Which makes them seem more detached from Fe and more attached to Fi.
When I do it, it is because it is more true than the internal, convoluted confusion. The truth is that I care simply and deeply. I don't know how to address it when someone assumes I'm a communist because I live with someone who leans to the Left, but it would never occur to me to be militant or even hold an ideology. When encountering distorted ideas, I don't know where to begin to correct it, and I don't think there is a place within the distorted framework to correct it. It needs to dissipate and fade and then rebuilding can take place.

What does a dog do when emotions get all complex with its people? It lies near the hurt person and cuddles. It's lack of analysis is not fake. It is truth.

Edit: One more thought about dealing with people (perhaps Fi or not) who can imagine and project incorrect assumptions on others, I also found it helpful to go underneath the argument rather than trying to reason through the specifics. I asked, "let's assume my ideas are whack-a-do, and I'm confused and wrong about most everything. What does it matter in the end? I don't have the power to negatively influence large-scale issues, and I still love each person in my family." That seemed to be the most helpful single thing I said.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Just an update here: not trying to derail. Me and the enfp went out to dinner tonight and he started talking about his mom. How she didn't know what to get him for Xmas and he actually knew what he would want (he is the worst to shop for.) and never knows.

He is a musician. Went to Berklee. He knows his shit. But he is branching out to learn cello. So, he would like cello lessons. He is telling me this. But his voice and descriptions read as tho he is complaining that now he has to take initiative to find the right teacher, etc or his mom may get one that isn't going to challenge him. Etc. He is going on about this.

So me being me, I kind of try to give him solutions. Well, you could try A, etc.....Then it hit me....

I asked him point blank: "Are you complaining to me or are you explaining?" He said, "explaining".

Ok. Whoa. I told him he sounded like he was unhappy with the situation and so I was trying to help him out.

He was surprised, I was surprised and we both had an "aha" moment into each others processes for that time. Kind of cool.

I kind of learned that his explaining is my version of complaining (i.e. a problem to be solved). Probably vice versa. Anyway, that may seem small but it is big in conflict resolution.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Here is a link to Jung's description of Fi. It does include criticism that describes when Fi can become oppressive as well as its positive qualities. It is a bit dense and complex, and I'll admit left me with some confusion about it. The people I know as Fi-doms do posses the childlike exterior and the respect for personal boundaries. I have only known one Fi dom who was habitually oppressive, and she was an unhealthy version of it.

He focuses mostly on this function in women just like he does with Fe, so in some ways it may not be that complete, even coming from Jung. Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

Carl Jung on Fi
4. The Introverted Feeling Type

It is principally among women that I have found the priority of introverted feeling. The proverb 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and not infrequently their temperament is melancholic. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. Since they submit the control of their lives to their subjectively orientated feeling, their true motives generally remain concealed. Their outward demeanour is harmonious and inconspicuous; they reveal a delightful repose, a sympathetic parallelism, which has no desire to affect others, either to impress, influence, or change them in any way. Should this outer side be somewhat emphasized, a suspicion of neglectfulness and coldness may easily obtrude itself, which not seldom increases to a real indifference for the comfort and well-being of others. One distinctly feels the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, such an event only occurs when the object has in some way too strong an effect. The harmonious feeling atmosphere rules only so long as the object moves upon its own way with a moderate feeling intensity, and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to accompany the real emotions of the object, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative feeling-judgment. Although one may find a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious companionship, the unfamiliar object is shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but is met by a manner of apparent indifference or repelling coldness. [p. 493]

One may even be made to feel the superfluousness of one's own existence. In the presence of something that might carry one away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent neutrality, tempered with an occasional trace of superiority and criticism that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive object. But a stormy emotion will be brusquely rejected with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the subject from the side of the unconscious, i.e. unless, through the animation of some primordial image, feeling is, as it were, taken captive. In which event such a woman simply feels a momentary laming, invariably producing, in due course, a still more violent resistance, which reaches the object in his most vulnerable spot. The relation to the object is, as far as possible, kept in a secure and tranquil middle state of feeling, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely proscribed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly and, when once aware of it at all, the object has a permanent sense of his undervaluation. Such, however, is not always the case, since very often the deficit remains unconscious; whereupon the unconscious feeling-claims gradually produce symptoms which compel a more serious attention.

A superficial judgment might well be betrayed, by a rather cold and reserved demeanour, into denying all feeling to this type. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, her feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop into the depth. Whereas, for instance, an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in both word and deed at the right place, thus quickly ridding itself of its impression, an intensive sympathy, because shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that embraces the misery of a world and is simply benumbed. It may possibly make an extravagant irruption, leading to some staggering act of an almost heroic character, to which, however, neither the object nor [p. 494] the subject can find a right relation. To the outer world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this sympathy looks like coldness, for it does nothing visibly, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.

Such misunderstanding is a characteristic occurrence in the life of this type, and is commonly registered as a most weighty argument against any deeper feeling relation with the object. But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type. It may possibly express its aim and content in a concealed religiosity anxiously shielded, from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms equally safeguarded from surprise; not without a secret ambition to bring about some superiority over the object by such means. Women often express much of it in their children, letting their passionateness flow secretly into them.

Although in the normal type, the tendency, above alluded to, to overpower or coerce the object once openly and visibly with the thing secretly felt, rarely plays a disturbing role, and never leads to a serious attempt in this direction, some trace of it, none the less, leaks through into the personal effect upon the object, in the form of a domineering influence often difficult to define. It is sensed as a sort of stifling or oppressive feeling which holds the immediate circle under a spell. It gives a woman of this type a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious. This power is derived from the deeply felt, unconscious images; consciousness, however, readily refers it to the ego, whereupon the influence becomes debased into personal tyranny. But, wherever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of the intensive feeling is also transformed into banal and arrogant ambition, vanity, and [p. 495] petty tyranny. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty. But this change in the picture leads also to neurosis.

So long as the ego feels itself housed, as it were, beneath the heights of the unconscious subject, and feeling reveals something higher and mightier than the ego, the type is normal. The unconscious thinking is certainly archaic, yet its reductions may prove extremely helpful in compensating the occasional inclinations to exalt the ego into the subject. But, whenever this does take place by dint of complete suppression of the unconscious reductive thinking-products, the unconscious thinking goes over into opposition and becomes projected into objects. Whereupon the now egocentric subject comes to feel the power and importance of the depreciated object. Consciousness begins to feel 'what others think'. Naturally, others are thinking, all sorts of baseness, scheming evil, and contriving all sorts of plots, secret intrigues, etc. To prevent this, the subject must also begin to carry out preventive intrigues, to suspect and sound others, to make subtle combinations. Assailed by rumours, he must make convulsive efforts to convert, if possible, a threatened inferiority into a superiority. Innumerable secret rivalries develop, and in these embittered struggles not only will no base or evil means be disdained, but even virtues will be misused and tampered with in order to play the trump card. Such a development must lead to exhaustion. The form of neurosis is neurasthenic rather than hysterical; in the case of women we often find severe collateral physical states, as for instance anæmia and its sequelæ.
 

erm

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Fi is responsible for everything wrong with the world.
 

giorgaros2

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Also Fi 4s have a fetish with being different from everyone else so they become "alternative", little they realize that no one cares about how unique and special they are in the real world because most of them dont do actually anything to actually shine as an individual.(there are exceptions ofc), but rely on their beliefs or on their outter style etc , stuff that no one cares about lol.
Also its ironic how Fi 4s joins subcultures to be different from anyone else but instead become a big group of people that think of the same things , dress the same and speak the same way.They become sheep just of different flock without them realizing.Actually you just can't be unique unless you seclude yourself from everything and everyone and become like Nietzche or like a monk or something.(This is unhealthy imo ).
 

cascadeco

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Also Fi 4s have a fetish with being different from everyone else so they become "alternative", little they realize that no one cares about how unique and special they are in the real world because most of them dont do actually anything to actually shine as an individual.(there are exceptions ofc), but rely on their beliefs or on their outter style etc , stuff that no one cares about lol.
Also its ironic how Fi 4s joins subcultures to be different from anyone else but instead become a big group of people that think of the same things , dress the same and speak the same way.They become sheep just of different flock without them realizing.Actually you just can't be unique unless you seclude yourself from everything and everyone and become like Nietzche or like a monk or something.(This is unhealthy imo ).

Actually much of what you write applies to counterphobic 6's, I wonder if that's some of what you're seeing.

Also much of what you're complaining about in this thread is just plain immature or unhealthier people who still have some growing up to do. It's not really Fi per se, any more than crazy Fe users represent Fe.
 

magpie

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Also Fi 4s have a fetish with being different from everyone else so they become "alternative", little they realize that no one cares about how unique and special they are in the real world because most of them dont do actually anything to actually shine as an individual.(there are exceptions ofc), but rely on their beliefs or on their outter style etc , stuff that no one cares about lol.
Also its ironic how Fi 4s joins subcultures to be different from anyone else but instead become a big group of people that think of the same things , dress the same and speak the same way.They become sheep just of different flock without them realizing.Actually you just can't be unique unless you seclude yourself from everything and everyone and become like Nietzche or like a monk or something.(This is unhealthy imo ).

Maybe you have also misinterpreted Nietzsche.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Also Fi 4s have a fetish with being different from everyone else so they become "alternative", little they realize that no one cares about how unique and special they are in the real world because most of them dont do actually anything to actually shine as an individual.(there are exceptions ofc), but rely on their beliefs or on their outter style etc , stuff that no one cares about lol.
Also its ironic how Fi 4s joins subcultures to be different from anyone else but instead become a big group of people that think of the same things , dress the same and speak the same way.They become sheep just of different flock without them realizing.Actually you just can't be unique unless you seclude yourself from everything and everyone and become like Nietzche or like a monk or something.(This is unhealthy imo ).
This is literally my plan.
Step 1 hit the big time on the inter-webs designing cute apps and such
Step 2 Wait for the money to roll in
Step 3 Move to a cabin in the woods away from society and become like Nietzche or like a monk or something.
 

21%

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This is literally my plan.
Step 1 hit the big time on the inter-webs designing cute apps and such
Step 2 Wait for the money to roll in
Step 3 Move to a cabin in the woods away from society and become like Nietzche or like a monk or something.
Sounds like an awesome plan!
 

Cellmold

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Fi just kinda sucks.

Too sensitive and too dramatic. I admire the sovereignty of spirit but not the upheaval that usually accompanies it.

*EDIT*

Maybe that's a bit harsh, but learning to sift through criticism is an important skill and I don't think a lot of introverted feelers bother with it.
 

Starry

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Ha. Yes. This rings true. We are two peas in a pod most times and have good rapport, light heartedness.

I have recognized that he puts a lot of pressure on himself to "be everything" to me to the point where if he misreads me, it bums him out. Def get the pouty ENFP.

Maybe I have an issue with his Fi. Sure. I think with this issue he is dealing with he is stuck. So maybe a good question is how does an Fi user jumpstart their internal decision making process? Because my way of suggesting solutions reads to him like Fe taking over. Maybe.



One of the things I wanted to ask you prior to responding was... if things don't work out between you and your ENFP would you date me? I'll go ahead and wait for your reply in this regard as it will surely have an impact on the content of my post. haha - I just think your ENFP is so lucky to have you.

No, I apologize but I just realized I don't quite know what you meant/mean when you say "jumpstart their internal decision making process"...I'm not sure if you are referring to something specific and fear I've missed something. Also...what exactly is an internal decision making process? I don't think I'm familiar with such a thing haha.

I wanted to tell you that I read your subsequent post and my heart was so warmed. Likewise, I didn't even remotely think it was a derail at all. In fact, I don't think you could have been more on-topic had you put forth an extraordinary amount of effort to be so.
 

Starry

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Becoming like Nietzsche and doing stuff like "heralding in the post-modern era" = a breeze.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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One of the things I wanted to ask you prior to responding was... if things don't work out between you and your ENFP would you date me? I'll go ahead and wait for your reply in this regard as it will surely have an impact on the content of my post. haha - I just think your ENFP is so lucky to have you.

No, I apologize but I just realized I don't quite know what you meant/mean when you say "jumpstart their internal decision making process"...I'm not sure if you are referring to something specific and fear I've missed something. Also...what exactly is an internal decision making process? I don't think I'm familiar with such a thing haha.

I wanted to tell you that I read your subsequent post and my heart was so warmed. Likewise, I didn't even remotely think it was a derail at all. In fact, I don't think you could have been more on-topic had you put forth an extraordinary amount of effort to be so.

Thanks :blush:

If this falls through, I will ring you up. Send pics. J/k ;)

I guess what I mean: it seems like he's stuck and doesn't feel inspired. Even if I invite him to do something fun, he gets like a stick in the mud (istj shadow) and sort of afraid of change in what is comfortable. Not like him normally. How does an ENFP get their groove back?
 
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