[Fi] Rant about Fi

[Poki]

Lay bare and plain your agenda. [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION]

So nudity and reasoning...that works

 

[Poki]

The first step in understanding Fi is accepting it for what it is and how it responds. Only then can you learn to work with it and not fight or argue with it.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Well respect, reasoning, and straight forward disclosure works like absolute shit for me, so I must be doing it wrong......

 

[Poki]

Well respect, reasoning, and straight forward disclosure works like absolute shit for me, so I must be doing it wrong......

From sounds everything with you, you are not fighting Fi, but history and possible disorder. Really complicates things.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

From sounds everything with you, you are not fighting Fi, but history and possible disorder. Really complicates things.

Most likely. Sucks to be me.

 

[Poki]

Most likely. Sucks to be me.

Been there, done that. Enjoy the good and try to fix the bad. Don't let the bad completely destroyed the good or indifferent. Fight resentment, better to walkaway then to let resentment and such spiral it down into a dark dark hole.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I was trying to think of this...


I wanted to give MPD2525 practical/useful info to use in the moment. She wanted to know how to *reach* Fi...and that is how you would do it. Communicating without smilies...completely on the level/authentically.

In more personal relationships...I would need more time to think about a response haha

So this question is what I'm really aiming at. In professional settings, I don't have much issue working with Fi. Mainly because there is a greater focus on both parties to get the job done. A neutral objective both Fi and Fe can get behind. I'm not a "There's a right way and a wrong way to do something" kind of person. Rather, does the completed work show quality? If yes, cool. I don't care how you got there. Keep it up.

But in my personal relationship with my ENFP (7w6) I'm discovering this Fi/Fe is where we have the most struggle communication wise. Fe hits at my vulnerable point and Fi is pretty strong with him. So, I can get exasperated with being misrepresented in his eyes. It's frustrating because I can see the way he is viewing me but I'm not hitting him in the right spot, so to speak so that he feels my concern, care, love. He knows it in his head but when he hears my Fe, he is conditioned to reject it as control or "guidance" or guilt.

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] said she was raised with Ti/Fe and she sounds a lot like my ENFP. Kind of rebellious toward Fe. Understandably. I just want to say I understand how it could come off as guilt tripping. Because the Fe user is bypassing Fi to get to what they think is more important - the whole. So, I get that. Yet, I have seen that Fi users don't really explain this to Fe users. They stubbornly reject it. Silently even. Then they feel guilty. Now, I don't understand that at all. Honestly. Guilt in itself is foreign to me. But guilt because you may be thought of as selfish (am I reading that right?) is hard to wrap my head around. My ENFP mentions he feels guilt a lot.

I tell him he doesn't owe me anything and I never want him to feel that way ever. We have spoken about it and I have told him that if he feels that from me that it would be the opposite of what I would want. I never want to control him. Never. Ever. It goes against everything I believe in. In that sense, it is hard to see your support be construed in that way. I understand it, but it feels like a rejection.

But if an Fi person wants to reach an Fe person at least halfway (ideally) they would do themselves and the Fe user a good deal of justice to say, "I need you to back up. You're on my junk." Because it lets the Fe user know where the Fi person is emotionally, mentally, etc. It also will strengthen the Fe users confidence in the Fi user.

Fe doesn't want you to tow the line so much as know where your lines fall. At least, if they respect the Fi user.

Because if you think about it, we can't know the collective unless we get a sense of the individuals in that collective as well. It may not be in depth but it's a toe in the water, so to speak. Sort of a "We still good here?" Cool. Let's keep going. Or "We still good here?" No. Okay what do we need change? This is frustrating to Fi because they may not know where they are, or what they think or feel about something when asked. Understandable. But, if that is the case, I don't think it is fair for Fi to hold it against Fe for going ahead with their desires if Fi doesn't make theirs known/doesn't know their desires/opinions at that time and that is a BIG DEAL because it happens. Fi doesn't voice their desires often but I have seen firsthand they can hold resentments without ever voicing displeasure. This can be a no win situation for Fe.

Notice I am using "we". On a side note: Kind of a big deal for me personally to include another in my life and the decisions I make in my life. So, in that sense, Fe can build it's own resentments for not being appreciated for how they are giving or showing value.

EDIT: I edited this to change some paragraphs around and after reading I'm a little sad because are Fi/Fe just at best supposed to "understand" mentally where the other is in intention without ever feeling deeply connected in that realm? Hmm.

 

[Starry]

So this question is what I'm really aiming at. In professional settings, I don't have much issue working with Fi. Mainly because there is a greater focus on both parties to get the job done. A neutral objective both Fi and Fe can get behind. I'm not a "There's a right way and a wrong way to do something" kind of person. Rather, does the completed work show quality? If yes, cool. I don't care how you got there. Keep it up.

But in my personal relationship with my ENFP (7w6) I'm discovering this Fi/Fe is where we have the most struggle communication wise. Fe hits at my vulnerable point and Fi is pretty strong with him. So, I can get exasperated with being misrepresented in his eyes. It's frustrating because I can see the way he is viewing me but I'm not hitting him in the right spot, so to speak so that he feels my concern, care, love. He knows it in his head but when he hears my Fe, he is conditioned to reject it as control or "guidance" or guilt.

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] said she was raised with Ti/Fe and she sounds a lot like my ENFP. Kind of rebellious toward Fe. Understandably. I just want to say I understand how it could come off as guilt tripping. Because the Fe user is bypassing Fi to get to what they think is more important - the whole. So, I get that. Yet, I have seen that Fi users don't really explain this to Fe users. They stubbornly reject it. Silently even. Then they feel guilty. Now, I don't understand that at all. Honestly. Guilt in itself is foreign to me. But guilt because you may be thought of as selfish (am I reading that right?) is hard to wrap my head around. My ENFP mentions he feels guilt a lot.

I tell him he doesn't owe me anything and I never want him to feel that way ever. We have spoken about it and I have told him that if he feels that from me that it would be the opposite of what I would want. I never want to control him. Never. Ever. It goes against everything I believe in. In that sense, it is hard to see your support be construed in that way. I understand it, but it feels like a rejection.

But if an Fi person wants to reach an Fe person at least halfway (ideally) they would do themselves and the Fe user a good deal of justice to say, "I need you to back up. You're on my junk." Because it lets the Fe user know where the Fi person is emotionally, mentally, etc. It also will strengthen the Fe users confidence in the Fi user.

Fe doesn't want you to tow the line so much as know where your lines fall. At least, if they respect the Fi user.

Because if you think about it, we can't know the collective unless we get a sense of the individuals in that collective as well. It may not be in depth but it's a toe in the water, so to speak. Sort of a "We still good here?" Cool. Let's keep going. Or "We still good here?" No. Okay what do we need change? Notice I am using "we". This is frustrating to Fi because they may not know where they are, or what they think or feel about something when asked. Understandable. But, if that is the case, I don't think it is fair for Fi to hold it against Fe for going ahead with their desires if Fi doesn't make theirs known and that is a BIG DEAL because it happens. Fi doesn't voice their desires often but I have seen firsthand they can hold resentments without ever voicing displeasure.

It's so funny because I was just sitting down to PM you because I was thinking "I'm not sure *anymore* (ha) that she was talking as a supervisor..."

Okay, this is great because it gives me a direction and you just know I'm now going to provide the best answer ever created. What? (haha)

I will think on this.

 

[Amargith]

I see where you're coming from [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION]

The thing is...Fi isn't exactly something that society values or understands, for the most part - only the products it can yield and even then (art, entertainment, etc). Fi-users tend to get kicked a lot for needing to be 'more productive' aka Fe or Te style. And Fe and Te are naturally directive. Add to that that Fe is for us in that pesky 6th position, meaning that it gets heard at its worst by us, yet we're actually competent at using it..but only in that nagging, annoying way which makes us and everyone else feel rebellious.

Truth be told..Fi doesn't translate well - I personally translate it through Fe and Te to get it heard and appreciated by others and I learned that here. On top of that, it takes time and actual space to work it - in isolation. All this just compounds to many Fi-users (being naturally conflict avoidant) just doing their best to avoid getting bitchslapped by Xe, while finding their place in the world while secretly rebelling against it. Add to that that he is male and the expectations of society are...even less kind.

There is something you could try, though, if you're up for it. You see, one of the reasons I get along with STPs, despite that pesky Ti and baby Fe is because they tend to be very straight forward - there is no paranoia to read between the lines. And, they tend to be as aloof and freedom loving as I am so I *know* they'll understand that part of me. And, there tends to be this mutual fascination and acknowledgement of each others skills because they *are* so different, instead of the whole 'you must convert to my system of thinking because you're doing it wrong' that often occurs between NxPs, ime.

With that as a background, you could attempt The Personal Contract. You know how you as an Fe-user follow a standard social contract that everyone basically respects - it's an easy, quick manual to most interactions? Most Fi-users don't *get* that and it rubs them the wrong way - but..it's demanded that you follow it or it gets you into all kinds of trouble. However, FiTe users will, if at all possible, especially with the people close to them, set up personal contracts between them and another person. And each contract is unique and basically the equivalent of Haute Couture in contracts. Iow, it's tailor-made to each parties specific needs (kind of like many business contracts are between two companies). It's a way to show love - to understand the other person so well, and know their needs so well that you show respect by individualising and adjusting your interaction style so it benefits both you to the max.

Show him you want to do that. Do it only with him (as it will tire you out as an inferior Fe user to do this with many people). It will make it extra special. Take the time to ask him to walk you through how he would really like things to work, to stop being afraid you'll judge him and to really genuinely vocalise his needs, how he view things and why he thinks certain things should work a certain way. Think about him and what you know about him - what quirks does he have and what does he likely need from you? How can you provide that. And do the same for him - tell him specifically why it is you prefer sunflowers over roses or how you enjoy a bag of peanuts instead as a sweet romantic gesture, for instance.

it will grow your bond, make it more intimate and it will give you a system to handle any kind of confrontations by adding extra clauses to the contract as you work out what both of you want in that particular situation (that is causing an argument) once you figured it out and using it as a template for similar situations. It will take time, but eventually you'll have yourself a tailor made dynamic that is perfect for the two of you.

Granted..it is a lot of work, but this is how Fi rolls

And it will take away any false assumptions, secret rebellion against (false) expectations, shed light on all the fuzzy parts that can cause insecurity and conflict avoidance, and show him that you mean it when you say that you want to support him as you'll be explaining to him why you prefer certain clauses of the standard social contract as they apply to *you*, making it personal instead of this vague impersonal concept he has to keep in mind and feels foreign to him. In doing that, you'll merge your two approaches and make it palatable for both.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

There is something you could try, though, if you're up for it. You see, one of the reasons I get along with STPs, despite that pesky Ti and baby Fe is because they tend to be very straight forward - there is no paranoia to read between the lines. And, they tend to be as aloof and freedom loving as I am so I *know* they'll understand that part of me. And, there tends to be this mutual fascination and acknowledgement of each others skills because they *are* so different, instead of the whole 'you must convert to my system of thinking because you're doing it wrong' that often occurs between NxPs, ime.

Yes. I know he feels the same as what you stated above. I don't play games and because I trust him, I'm pretty open. We both have a free spirit and both respect that aspect in each other.

FiTe users will, if at all possible, especially with the people close to them, set up personal contracts between them and another person. And each contract is unique and basically the equivalent of Haute Couture in contracts. Iow, it's tailor-made to each parties specific needs (kind of like many business contracts are between two companies). It's a way to show love - to understand the other person so well, and know their needs so well that you show respect by individualising and adjusting your interaction style so it benefits both you to the max.

Ha. Yes. I have seen him do this!

And I'm glad to read your paragraph below and realize that we do that. So, I'm glad that at least, if he is similar to you, that he appreciates it. Thanks.

I should say that this Fi/Fe issue that we are dealing with presents itself in dealing with one problem in general. It's specific, rather than pervasive to the entire relationship. But hearing from you Fi people sort of makes it easier to lock onto things.

 

[gromit]

What happened to griping about Fi?

 

[prplchknz]

What happened to griping about Fi?

its the internet,

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

What happened to griping about Fi?

I read that in a bad Jerry Seinfeld parody voice.

 

[ceecee]

Well respect, reasoning, and straight forward disclosure works like absolute shit for me, so I must be doing it wrong......

No but you're expecting mentally ill people to listen and speak back to you in the way a healthy person would. That's just not going to happen.

 

[gromit]

I read that in a bad Jerry Seinfeld parody voice.

THAT IS HOW MY VOICE SOUNDS HOW DID YOU KNOW

 

[ceecee]

THAT IS HOW MY VOICE SOUNDS HOW DID YOU KNOW

 

[Starry]

So this question is what I'm really aiming at. In professional settings, I don't have much issue working with Fi. Mainly because there is a greater focus on both parties to get the job done. A neutral objective both Fi and Fe can get behind. I'm not a "There's a right way and a wrong way to do something" kind of person. Rather, does the completed work show quality? If yes, cool. I don't care how you got there. Keep it up.

But in my personal relationship with my ENFP (7w6) I'm discovering this Fi/Fe is where we have the most struggle communication wise. Fe hits at my vulnerable point and Fi is pretty strong with him. So, I can get exasperated with being misrepresented in his eyes. It's frustrating because I can see the way he is viewing me but I'm not hitting him in the right spot, so to speak so that he feels my concern, care, love. He knows it in his head but when he hears my Fe, he is conditioned to reject it as control or "guidance" or guilt.

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] said she was raised with Ti/Fe and she sounds a lot like my ENFP. Kind of rebellious toward Fe. Understandably. I just want to say I understand how it could come off as guilt tripping. Because the Fe user is bypassing Fi to get to what they think is more important - the whole. So, I get that. Yet, I have seen that Fi users don't really explain this to Fe users. They stubbornly reject it. Silently even. Then they feel guilty. Now, I don't understand that at all. Honestly. Guilt in itself is foreign to me. But guilt because you may be thought of as selfish (am I reading that right?) is hard to wrap my head around. My ENFP mentions he feels guilt a lot.

I tell him he doesn't owe me anything and I never want him to feel that way ever. We have spoken about it and I have told him that if he feels that from me that it would be the opposite of what I would want. I never want to control him. Never. Ever. It goes against everything I believe in. In that sense, it is hard to see your support be construed in that way. I understand it, but it feels like a rejection.

But if an Fi person wants to reach an Fe person at least halfway (ideally) they would do themselves and the Fe user a good deal of justice to say, "I need you to back up. You're on my junk." Because it lets the Fe user know where the Fi person is emotionally, mentally, etc. It also will strengthen the Fe users confidence in the Fi user.

Fe doesn't want you to tow the line so much as know where your lines fall. At least, if they respect the Fi user.

Because if you think about it, we can't know the collective unless we get a sense of the individuals in that collective as well. It may not be in depth but it's a toe in the water, so to speak. Sort of a "We still good here?" Cool. Let's keep going. Or "We still good here?" No. Okay what do we need change? This is frustrating to Fi because they may not know where they are, or what they think or feel about something when asked. Understandable. But, if that is the case, I don't think it is fair for Fi to hold it against Fe for going ahead with their desires if Fi doesn't make theirs known/doesn't know their desires/opinions at that time and that is a BIG DEAL because it happens. Fi doesn't voice their desires often but I have seen firsthand they can hold resentments without ever voicing displeasure. This can be a no win situation for Fe.

Notice I am using "we". On a side note: Kind of a big deal for me personally to include another in my life and the decisions I make in my life. So, in that sense, Fe can build it's own resentments for not being appreciated for how they are giving or showing value.

EDIT: I edited this to change some paragraphs around and after reading I'm a little sad because are Fi/Fe just at best supposed to "understand" mentally where the other is in intention without ever feeling deeply connected in that realm? Hmm.

I swear I have the credentials: Dad's Mom, my Nona - ENFJ. Mom - ENFJ. Closest in age sister - INFJ (or if you want to get technical eNFJ). Significant ex - INFJ.

I have swam the seven Fe seas without drowning but often wanting to all my life.

I'm a bit worried though because my answer will be very different from Amargith's...but do not want to detract from that if you are receiving great benefit from it you know?



I personally do not think this is an Fe issue on his end. You may very well have an issue with his Fi (and that would make a lot of sense to me - I am not above recognizing the challenges Fi can present)...but I don't get the sense this is an Fe deal/rebellion for him.


As 7w6 I struggle with "image-fueled-Fe"...but there are spots on the enneagram map where Fe feels like a "partner in crime" (like robinhood) to me and 6w5 is one of them.


7w6 deals with "you're doing it wrong" on a daily basis and when it comes to relationships guilt will often follow. We want so badly to be *everything* to the other person. And we'll get whiny and pouty and try to share the **love**...alright, I mean, guilt...



idk. just maybe don't do a contract.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

As 7w6 I struggle with "image-fueled-Fe"...but there are spots on the enneagram map where Fe feels like a "partner in crime" (like robinhood) to me and 6w5 is one of them.


7w6 deals with "you're doing it wrong" on a daily basis and when it comes to relationships guilt will often follow. We want so badly to be *everything* to the other person. And we'll get whiny and pouty and try to share the **love**...alright, I mean, guilt

Ha. Yes. This rings true. We are two peas in a pod most times and have good rapport, light heartedness.

I have recognized that he puts a lot of pressure on himself to "be everything" to me to the point where if he misreads me, it bums him out. Def get the pouty ENFP.

Maybe I have an issue with his Fi. Sure. I think with this issue he is dealing with he is stuck. So maybe a good question is how does an Fi user jumpstart their internal decision making process? Because my way of suggesting solutions reads to him like Fe taking over. Maybe.

 

[Poki]

Yes. I know he feels the same as what you stated above. I don't play games and because I trust him, I'm pretty open. We both have a free spirit and both respect that aspect in each other.



Ha. Yes. I have seen him do this!

And I'm glad to read your paragraph below and realize that we do that. So, I'm glad that at least, if he is similar to you, that he appreciates it. Thanks.

I should say that this Fi/Fe issue that we are dealing with presents itself in dealing with one problem in general. It's specific, rather than pervasive to the entire relationship. But hearing from you Fi people sort of makes it easier to lock onto things.

I think I understand. My GF years ago before we started dating used to react badly to me because she thought I was guilt tripping her when it was missing reading my responses. It was due to her upbringing and associating my response to those around her that guilt tripped her and hounded her. Projecting other people onto me and putting me in the same box. They can easily very quick to judge and jump which is actually a very unhealthy side for them.

ENFP are very much controlled by the environment so you have to look at the environment to understand Fi, not what is said. Also ask him to point out exactly what you say and not just how he feels, but why he feels guilt tripped. Give him time to process the actual reason and don't fear causing bullshit on reasons...ENFP are good at giving...I think...reasons that are bullshit. Again with the quick to judge...have to make them go into Fi and really process it. They are a type that can run with learned data that is royally screwed up. GF said her family kept telling her that her previous boyfriend made her stupid

You have to learn him...I usually call bullshit by saying things like...you don't care about that or that not you or stuff like that. They have to feel it out, not logical think it out.

It's funny because she will be like...this frustrates meand I will flat out say no it doesnt...you don't care about that. Feelings can transpire from on thing to another.

 

[Amargith]

^ I think you're talking about the Inner Judge effect. Basically, it's where an ENFP (or any other person for that matter) holds two contradicting values high and it generates this internal conflict that is never ending - and as an outsider, you never know which side is going to emerge victorious in a given situation, meaning we come off inconsistent as f***.

It's where the ENFP has internalised things they've been taught all their lives (usually by parents or authority figures that had a great impact of some sort), while their Fi really...doesn't actually agree with that. But, because they believed that those people (back when they were kids) knew better than them, they took that stuff on board. Things like : i'm stupid, I know. Or I'm lazy, I always inconvenience people around me. The reason they cannot 'fix' these things about themselves and change that perception is because they don't truly value the things that they're supposed to be doing according to other people to not become (perceived as) lazy.

In general, you see this as a conflict of the Self and standing up for what you believe vs the desire to respect other people's views while avoiding conflict. It's usually also the stuff they'll judge themselves (and others, unconsciously) the hardest on, because it's been drilled into them.

As [MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] pointed out, it helps to tell them that 'hey, this doesn't sound like something you actually value AND that is ok! I *want* you to be you, not some person other people want you to be'

One exercise I do recommend for everyone (not just ENFPs), who struggle with this is to draw up two columns on a piece of paper and put down the things you think you value but are actually things your parents or teachers or whatever (aka your Inner Judge) values, and in the other column, things that *you* actually value. Seeing the conflict split up like that can help. It won't actually instantly resolve it, but it will make you aware and then you can let your subconscious mull on it so you can resolve it in the end. Usually, you end up realising that your own values are really not that bad and that being different from what people want you to be is in fact a good thing. It also helps you defend yourself against those people as you learn *why* you adhere to things and why things are important to you, which you can then share with others as you stand your ground.