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Random political thought thread.

Virtual ghost

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Personally, I'm strongly against this. I think this is a major assault on personal liberty, and my stance is non-negotiable. I can't say I have a household, but if I did I wouldn't like the government telling me that I must reproduce with my wife, especially because I'm strongly opposed to myself creating offspring. Also, the decision to not reproduce is a decision I get to make, not anybody else.

This concept has grown more popular among conservatives in the U.S., also. I find that alarming. If we want to think of ourselves as a society that values freedom and we can't value freedom in this context, what would that say?

Dude, this isn't US where someone will take you to court because you don't have children (or something similarly absurd).

The point is simply that more money and effort goes into social programs that support having children and therefore demographics (since many want to have children but logistics and finances are on the edge for them). This can also be in the domain that laws are made so that they are more friendly towards children (anti-eviction laws and similar measures). As I said the major measure is making sure that people who emigrated come back (or their children/grandchildren at least).


If you don't want children than you wouldn't really have direct contacts with this ministry. Some of your tax money will end in it but that is it.
 
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Dude, this isn't US where someone will take you to court because you don't have children (or something similarly absurd).

The point is simply that more money and effort goes into social programs that support having children and therefore demographics (since many want to have children but logistics and finances are on the edge for them). This can also be in the domain that laws are made so that they are more friendly towards children (anti-eviction laws and similar measures). As I said the major measure is making sure that people who emigrated come back (or their children/grandchildren at least).


If you don't want children than you wouldn't really have direct contacts with this ministry. Some of your tax money will end in it but that is it.
What does it mean to make sure that there are at least 2 children per woman? I may have misinterpreted.
 

Virtual ghost

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What does it mean to make sure that there are at least 2 children per woman? I may have misinterpreted.

That is simply the ideal, since that means that the demographic of the country is stable if there are 2 children per woman. Perhaps I wrote that line in too strict fashion.

The whole point is that giving birth should be more legally and financially protected from all the problems of this world. That emigrated people come back to some degree (and that they have easier time getting all the papers in one place). The ministry could keep statistics and on them decide where it makes sense to build schools and similar objects ... etc.

This is the project that has national preservation in mind but this shouldn't be fundamentally autocratic institution by how it is being designed. After all it should be one of the smallest ministries. Since it is basically just the office that coordinates everyone else so that things go more smoothly in this domain.
 

Red Herring

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What does it mean to make sure that there are at least 2 children per woman? I may have misinterpreted.
I understood it to mean that ON AVERAGE there should be two children per woman as that (or more exactly 2.1) is the replacement rate needed to keep a population steady. Most industrial nationas are below that and Europe more so than the US.
 

Virtual ghost

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I understood it to mean that ON AVERAGE there should be two children per woman as that (or more exactly 2.1) is the replacement rate needed to keep a population steady. Most industrial nationas are below that and Europe more so than the US.

That is exactly what I meant (I am awake for too long to be 100% precise with words).

Will this plan work remains to be seen but I don't mind the idea. Low birth rates and plenty of emigration towards countries like Germany: lets be honest something has to be done since this will result in national extinction if it continues. You know how it is in Germany and you don't really have emigration problem in the mix. In other words people who could have children just move out. This used be worse but the process didn't fully stop. However rising the average wage by 70% over the last decade has slowed down the emigration greatly. Since this is the only way to stop the bleeding towards richer countries.
 
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I understood it to mean that ON AVERAGE there should be two children per woman as that (or more exactly 2.1) is the replacement rate needed to keep a population steady. Most industrial nationas are below that and Europe more so than the US.
Sure. To replace the parents, you need two children. What I was concerned about were the methods.

I have a little bit better of an idea of what is meant now, though.
 

Virtual ghost

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That is exactly what I meant (I am awake for too long to be 100% precise with words).

Will this plan work remains to be seen but I don't mind the idea. Low birth rates and plenty of emigration towards countries like Germany: lets be honest something has to be done since this will result in national extinction if it continues. You know how it is in Germany and you don't really have emigration problem in the mix. In other words people who could have children just move out. This used be worse but the process didn't fully stop. However rising the average wage by 70% over the last decade has slowed down the emigration greatly. Since this is the only way to stop the bleeding towards richer countries.

In a sense this is basically why my right is so to the left in economy. Since it is well known that if they go into fiscally conservative direction this country is history (in the most literal sense of the word). The demography experts have calculated that due to all wars and dictatorships of 20th century Croatian population is only about 40% of what it should be. Since that many people run away or they simply died out of starvation, diseases and bullets. This is huge hole so we should at least try to stabilize at this level. However if young people continue to move out into more developed countries that is pretty much it. So this ministry is kinda "desperate times, desperate measures" type of move.
 
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Speaking of oligarchs, I'm sick of this fucker:


In particular, because of this:

Wikipedia said:
In September 2020, Griffin wrote an op-ed published in the Chicago Tribune stating his opposition to Governor of Illinois J. B. Pritzker's "Fair Tax" proposal, which would change Illinois's income tax from a flat tax to a graduated tax.[102][103] In an October 2020 email to Citadel LLC's Chicago employees, Griffin criticized Pritzker's tax plan and alluded to the possibility of moving his company out of Illinois.[104][105]

He didn't just post opt-eds voicing his opposition. He funded ads that were against it. I wish the article mentioned that.

 

Red Herring

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Speaking of oligarchs, I'm sick of this fucker:


In particular, because of this:



He didn't just post opt-eds voicing his opposition. He funded ads that were against it. I wish the article mentioned that.


Where I live the Supreme Court has decided that a flat tax would violate the constitutional principle of equality.

One CDU politician suggested changing the system from progressive to flats back in 2005 but eventually backpaddeled. As far as I am aware not a single one of our 7 political parties proposes a flat tax.

There are a handful of countries that have them though, mostly in Eastern Europe and Eurasia. Usually only smaller, poorer countries have them at a national level but quite a few places have them locallly on top of national progressive taxes.
 

Coriolis

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Any "flat tax" is a regressive tax. That includes property tax, sales tax, the taxes (called fees) we pay for drivers licenses and car registrations, etc. As I have said before, we should get rid of all of that and replace it with progressive state income tax. Then all taxes are based on one's ability to pay, with the wealthy paying more, as it should be.
 

Lark

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Any "flat tax" is a regressive tax. That includes property tax, sales tax, the taxes (called fees) we pay for drivers licenses and car registrations, etc. As I have said before, we should get rid of all of that and replace it with progressive state income tax. Then all taxes are based on one's ability to pay, with the wealthy paying more, as it should be.
You could address some of the issues with capital flight that way, an income earned where someone is working, where there job is, could be targeted in that way but in the UK when this has happened the boardrooms and higher salaried positions have just renegotiated their contracts in order that instead of income they get shares or other types of payment which are not taxed.

The only conceiveable argument for lower taxes on the higher incomes for me would be that at a certain point the costs of avoidance and evasion outweigh the cost of compliance with collection, public revenues do reflect that, it is a fact, and it could go some way to practically raising the necessary money for public expenditure, which in the UK at least had become a serious, serious problem (and probably wont be sorted out for a few generations).

This was not that public expenditure was unaffordable, the "great resignation", "lone parent families", "welfare dependency", or any of the other classic conservative bogeymen were not to blame, or any of the nouveau anxieties about "breeders", "over population" etc. (many of which are just trojans for older folk devilry anyway, "the poor they are too many" or racist thinking, in drag, to appeal to the sensibilities of new money homosexuals a lot of the time).

The existing and projected spending could be covered that way, even better spending on public services or infrastructure could be covered that way, depending on political choices, it could as easily be used to pay for tax relief for the mega rich as it was with Trump's administration, with no evidence what-so-ever of it resulting in anything other than nominal changes in private accounts of already obscenely wealthy individuals as they play games of who will be the richest man in the cemetary.

The problem is wealth inequality, specifically, I think, old money, and there is a problem in so far as it appears to be invincible and impervious to any type of taxation, market correction or control what-so-ever. There is no recession, depression or political decision making which will actually touch a certain population of wealthy elites, I'm increasingly no convinced that this group is effected by war, disease, racism or other prejudices, even law, moral or normative sanction can not and does not impact upon them, its not like anything that's been known in the past and you maybe only get a glimpse of it within some fictional narratives, for instance Dune.

A lot of the "minor controversaries", like those I mentioned already, but also environmental catastrophizing, climate change etc. and even the resistable rise of the various fascisms, biological vandalism and new chauvinisms, which begin trending, are just attempts at reforging connections, like the lilliputians attempting to bind Gullivar.

I largely suspect that the same elites will carry on ignoring the major social and environmental externalities, the wealth inequality will continue apace, all the older ideologies dont even have a proper way of conceiving what is happening or suggesting any alternative which does not amount to the "same old, same old", they are all really spent and exhausted, whatever the appeal of old fashioned racist ideologies have at the moment, I think its a flash in the pan, the final arbitor is money power, money values and old money trumps that.

A hell of a lot of forums online are dominated by discussions which are just trojans one way or another for this kind of thing, even the honest standard bearers opposing it dont realize the extent to which they've been wound up and set off in a fashion to provoke or amplify enmities which result in eventual spikes in what they are enthusiastically "resisting". The real world is changing to conform to that style too. Silencing or censoring or otherwise policing opinion, as it often is online and always through formal sanction, doesnt make it go away, no more than battling with private doubts or internalised voices on the same topics within the self means it goes away either. Though I do, ultimately, think its a side show, it all seems to me like children at a party squabbling over whether their favourite type of ice cream should be the only type of ice cream.

Whether or not the world can or should conform to your own thoughts, feelings, preferences is the stuff of politics and public discourse, not wealth inequality, even paying for public spending reflects the former rather than the later and always will. Which kind of makes much of it all a mute point really.

And that mute point nature is why I think there's declining interest in some forums, types of discussion, discourse or public engagement among people who arent part of the elites. Meaning the types of opinion that come to dominate are the most garish, nonsensical types, the idiocracy types, and you then have echo chambers the world over. Its what I've observed here over the last couple of years as an on looker.
 
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Lark said:
A hell of a lot of forums online are dominated by discussions which are just trojans one way or another for this kind of thing, even the honest standard bearers opposing it dont realize the extent to which they've been wound up and set off in a fashion to provoke or amplify enmities which result in eventual spikes in what they are enthusiastically "resisting". The real world is changing to conform to that style too. Silencing or censoring or otherwise policing opinion, as it often is online and always through formal sanction, doesnt make it go away, no more than battling with private doubts or internalised voices on the same topics within the self means it goes away either. Though I do, ultimately, think its a side show, it all seems to me like children at a party squabbling over whether their favourite type of ice cream should be the only type of ice cream.

Whether or not the world can or should conform to your own thoughts, feelings, preferences is the stuff of politics and public discourse, not wealth inequality, even paying for public spending reflects the former rather than the later and always will. Which kind of makes much of it all a mute point really.
Well, you could say the same about wealth inequality. That is, you could say that the world should not conform to your thoughts, feelings, and preferences on this subject. Throughout history, there has always been a rigid class system, and there always will be. It's just a "fact" of human nature.

I don't agree with this, but I've heard this argument made. I think politics should be about expressing your preferences about what the world should be like. If it is not, then why should our input even matter?

Politics are important because I am skeptical about the concept of historical inevitability. I do not think there are laws that eventually determine everything will turn out beautifully. That kind of concept is too optimistic to suit my own nature anyway. Come back with the Ring of Fire and I might be able to tell you differently.

Also, I didn't censor or silence anyone. I simply made my views known.
 
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It might be fun tonight, as I retire to my chambers, to imagine what freedom would actually look like. I have long-suspected that we do not actually have it. The belief that we all have lots of it is a central dogma of American society; but in truth, it may be nothing more than a way of keeping everyone complacent and under control. "Why resist or even ever be unhappy? You have so much freedom!"

I think we could do better, but I haven't thought very much about what that might look like.
 
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The Cat

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It might be fun tonight, as I retire to my chambers, to imagine what freedom would actually look like. I have long-suspected that we do not actually have it. The belief that we all have lots of it is a central dogma of American society; but in truth, it may be nothing more than a way of keeping everyone complacent and under control. "Why resist or even ever be unhappy? You have so much freedom!"

I think we could do better, but I haven't thought very much about what that might look like.
You've got all the freedom in the world to obey and do what you're told.
 

Coriolis

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It might be fun tonight, as I retire to my chambers, to imagine what freedom would actually look like. I have long-suspected that we do not actually have it. The belief that we all have lots of it is a central dogma of American society; but in truth, it may be nothing more than a way of keeping everyone complacent and under control. "Why resist or even ever be unhappy? You have so much freedom!"

I think we could do better, but I haven't thought very much about what that might look like.
No one has absolute freedom, even in an absence of government. The freedom we have is relative, and depends on the circumstances in which we live. And yes - we could do better. One of our goals, and the goal of our leaders, should be to maximize that freedom for everyone. My personal view is that we should start from the default that we are free to do whatever we want, and then place only those limits necessary to maximize freedom for others. We are not free to murder, rape, and steal, for instance, because that comes at the cost of someone else's more fundamental freedoms to security in their person and property. Every limitation placed on us by the government should have to pass a similar test. Many do not.
 

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That's my position. Once you have legal only, the government (and therefore the people) can set the levels of immigration as they see fit.

@VG - I'll believe in this right wing surge when I see it. It's been on the brink and then fades away as the middle panics and goes left too often for me to believe it (outside of Trumpism).
Trump's plan to stop the current housing crisis in the US is mass deportations and attacking every type of legal immigration that exists. So when you keep mush mouthing that legal immigration bullshit just remember that every right wing government wants the same things no matter where they are in the world.
 
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