Random political thought thread.

[SensEye]

Our six party system explained with American politicians (in case anybody has been wondering about this):

If you don't have the time just skip to the end to see an overview of how they are spread out.

I like the concept of this video. It really helps a North American understand what the parties are all about in one easy lesson. Just from watching this I can tell I would likely vote FDP or CDU/CSU. I would need a deeper dive into their economic policies to determine which. But it would almost certainly be one of those two, with SPD being a possible longshot. The rest, no chance.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Our six party system explained with American politicians (in case anybody has been wondering about this):

If you don't have the time just skip to the end to see an overview of how they are spread out.

I am sorry but this video just isn't working for me as a "fact". This maybe works when you just consider social issues. However when you go into welfare state, socialized healthcare, housing, free college, public safety etc. this video falls apart pretty quickly (at least in my opinion).


In my book it is more like this in best case scenario:

MAGA-AfD
People around the center - CDU
Democratic establishment - FDP
Progressives - Greens




In my book in US there is nothing to the left of Green positions. In other words socialized healthcare, free college etc. are the core of what the SPD is. What means that SPD and options further left don't really exist in US. Therefore putting the entire Democratic establishment in there is just factual ignorance in my opnion. The progressives kinda have glimpses of those postions since they are the closest option, but the texbook SPD program is still to the left of them.

To make things even worse CDU when it comes to governing power respects the institution of socialized medicine and most other wefare programs.
I mean don't even get me started on what Merkel did in Covid era. Not to mention that they aren't strangers to governing in coailtion with SPD. Therefore putting the entire Republican establishment in there is perhaps even bigger ignorance than what was done with the Democratic party in that video.


I am sorry, but I am not buying this.
For me this is simply factually wrong and misleading.
Just saying.

 

[Red Herring]

I am sorry but this video just isn't working for me as a "fact". This maybe works when you just consider social issues. However when you go into welfare state, socialized healthcare, housing, free college, public safety etc. this video falls apart pretty quickly (at least in my opinion).


In my book it is more like this in best case scenario:

MAGA-AfD
People around the center - CDU
Democratic establishment - FDP
Progressives - Greens




In my book in US there is nothing to the left of Green positions. In other words socialized healthcare, free college etc. are the core of what the SPD is. What means that SPD and options further left don't really exist in US. Therefore putting the entire Democratic establishment in there is just factual ignorance in my opnion. The progressives kinda have glimpses of those postions since they are the closest option, but the texbook SPD program is still to the left of them.

To make things even worse CDU when it comes to governing power respects the institution of socialized medicine and most other wefare programs.
I mean don't even get me started on what Merkel did in Covid era. Not to mention that they aren't strangers to governing in coailtion with SPD. Therefore putting the entire Republican establishment in there is perhaps even bigger ignorance than what was done with the Democratic party in that video.


I am sorry, but I am not buying this.
For me this is simply factually wrong and misleading.
Just saying.

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees here a bit. I think the analysis in the video is mostly based on the social mileus and general parts of the spectrum the parties stand for. Naturally the individual issues on the agenda will differ and the political culture between parties is different. And if you only have two parties it's harder to establish and practice bipartisonship.

The video is not about how each part of US politics falls neatly into the German system but about explaining the different parties to Americans by comparing them with people they know. I also think you often tend to exaggerate a bit when it comes to the differences between the American and the European welfare state - at least when it comes to Germany specifically which often has a mixed system (universities have only been free for two decades, healthcare is universal in the sense of everybody has to have insurance but it's semi-private and very complicated, etc and the SPD played a vital role in rolling back the welfare state in Germany). But since the average American stands to the political right of the average European on many social and economic issues it should come as no surprise that there is no 100% overlap. You can't put the two systems on top of each other and get a clean overlap with no rims sticking out. But if you look at the SPECTRUM within the US and within Germany you can match points in one system with points in the other system BASED ON THEIR RELATIVE POSITION within each system. That's all this was ever about.

My addendum about the AfD, our rough equivalent of MAGA and the closests thing we have to the 45th US president, being officially on the watchlist of the secret service for being a potential threat to the constitution and liberal democracy was also obviously meant as a clear pointer to the differences between how the two societies deal with these movements. Over here the public debate is still whether or not MAGA positions should be heard in talkshows or whether they should be refused a platform, whether "normal" conservatives should coooperate with them on some issues or if the firewall will keep standing. "Our MAGA" is currently at about 17% support - significantly more in the rural, economically underdeveloped East, less in the densely populated West.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I like the concept of this video. It really helps a North American understand what the parties are all about in one easy lesson. Just from watching this I can tell I would likely vote FDP or CDU/CSU. I would need a deeper dive into their economic policies to determine which. But it would almost certainly be one of those two, with SPD being a possible longshot. The rest, no chance.

I would dare to give you FDP label.

The key is in social values.
C in CDU and CSU stands for Christian. What means that this is the party for people that are into traditional family values and going to Church regularly. While FDP is more more of a free market and don't your own thing kind of a party. Thus you strike me as much more of a FDP type.

 

[Red Herring]

I would dare to give you FDP label.

The key is in social values.
C in CDU and CSU stands for Christian. What means that this is the party for people that are into traditional family values and going to Church regularly. While FDP is more more of a free market and don't your own thing kind of a party. Thus you strike me as much more of a FDP type.

The C in CDU is mostly decorative these days. Unlike in America religion and the church play no real role in German public life. If you use the term "traditional family values" in front of North Americans they'll get the wrong idea. The CDU is more than anything the party of structural conservatism. They are not trying to turn back the clock on social change but to slow it down if possible. These last few years they were mostly trying to figure out how to face the challenges of the 21st century without losing a party base that still lives in the 20th (don't forget Germany, like Japan, is a society with a relatively old demographic with a culture that has a system for everything and is pretty much set in its ways).

 

[Virtual ghost]

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees here a bit. I think the analysis in the video is mostly based on the social mileus and general parts of the spectrum the parties stand for. Naturally the individual issues on the agenda will differ and the political culture between parties is different. And if you only have two parties it's harder to establish and practice bipartisonship.

The video is not about how each part of US politics falls neatly into the German system but about explaining the different parties to Americans by comparing them with people they know. I also think you often tend to exaggerate a bit when it comes to the differences between the American and the European welfare state - at least when it comes to Germany specifically which often has a mixed system (universities have only been free for two decades, healthcare is universal in the sense of everybody has to have insurance but it's semi-private and very complicated, etc and the SPD played a vital role in rolling back the welfare state in Germany). But since the average American stands to the political right of the average European on many social and economic issues it should come as no surprise that there is no 100% overlap. You can't put the two systems on top of each other and get a clean overlap with no rims sticking out. But if you look at the SPECTRUM within the US and within Germany you can match points in one system with points in the other system BASED ON THEIR RELATIVE POSITION within each system. That's all this was ever about.

My addendum about the AfD, our rough equivalent of MAGA and the closests thing we have to the 45th US president, being officially on the watchlist of the secret service for being a potential threat to the constitution and liberal democracy was also obviously meant as a clear pointer to the differences between how the two societies deal with these movements. Over here the public debate is still whether or not MAGA positions should be heard in talkshows or whether they should be refused a platform, whether "normal" conservatives should coooperate with them on some issues or if the firewall will keep standing. "Our MAGA" is currently at about 17% support - significantly more in the rural, economically underdeveloped East, less in the densely populated West.

Of course you can match various positions of both system. My only argument is about what are actually equivalents in both systems and that some positions don't really have equivalents. I am simply saying that the video is kinda too simplistic and thus kinda misleading for those that don't know too much about the subject. Years ago you said yourself that the the biggest healthcare bill you ever paid with out of pocket money was something like 70$. Therefore for me these kind of stuff really matter when you consider what are equivalents.

Plus in the case that you missed it: my incoming government will be the equivalent of CDU+AfD+FDP (and yeah the left is panicking). So in this part of the EU it seems that we solved that issue of what should be heard. However my AfD/MAGA still has plenty of welfare state elements since their voters and various relaities demand it. Therfore for me this whole thing of drawing simplistic parallels is kinda slipperly slope that quickly becomes misleading if you aren't careful. Can we really draw the exact parallels between the parties if mine is getting into government and yours is under security survailance ?

 

[Virtual ghost]

The C in CDU is mostly decorative these days. Unlike in America religion and the church play no real role in German public life. If you use the term "traditional family values" in front of North Americans they'll get the wrong idea. The CDU is more than anything the party of structural conservatism. They are not trying to turn back the clock on social change but to slow it down if possible. These last few years they were mostly trying to figure out how to face the challenges of the 21st century without losing a party base that still lives in the 20th (don't forget Germany, like Japan, is a society with a relatively old demographic with a culture that has a system for everything and is pretty much set in its ways).

I know, but his arguments and avatar just fit so much more into FDP zone.

On the other hand if party base still lives in 20th century then why it is such an error so say that they value old school and traditional values ? (genuine question)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Really helpful. I loled at Gavin Newsome in the Greens but it does fit as there isn't anything in between them and the SPD. Hillary - solid FDP though. Especially the more she talks now.

I take it you're referring to this:

Hillary Clinton Accuses Protesters of Ignorance of Mideast History

In an interview on the MSNBC show “Morning Joe,” on Thursday, Ms. Clinton criticized student protesters, saying many were ignorant of the history of the Middle East, the United States and the world.

www.nytimes.com

I don't have an issue with her because she's blunt and direct. I have an issue with her because her political instincts are terrible; if they'd been better she could have defeated Trump. It's not just her, though. I think James Comey idiotically assuming she would win and issuing a warning that he was reopening the investigation days before the election didn't help, especially since none of that happened to anything.

I feel the way college campuses have reacted to protests is extremely overblown. I don't know the details of all these cases, and I'm sure there are examples of something awful that people can point to. I'm certain that not everyone participating in the protests is a monster, though. There are massive human rights violations involved and there should be nothing wrong with protesting those.

 

[SensEye]

I would dare to give you FDP label.

The key is in social values.
C in CDU and CSU stands for Christian. What means that this is the party for people that are into traditional family values and going to Church regularly. While FDP is more more of a free market and don't your own thing kind of a party. Thus you strike me as much more of a FDP type.

You might be right. As I mentioned in my post, I would want a better look at these two parties economic policies. You are correct in that I am not a social conservative, but on that brief video I feel the FDP might not be fiscally conservative enough for my tastes. And if Red Herring is correct and the Christian label is just decorative, the CDU may avoid being too socially conservative for my taste and a better fit economically.

Anyways, for people like me, who don't have much understanding of what seems to be a large spectrum of political parties in various EU countries, this kind of video placing politicians I am somewhat familiar with into "best fit" parties is a quick and easy way to get some insight. Otherwise, all I have is a more general left to right spectrum to go on.

 

[Red Herring]

I feel the FDP might not be fiscally conservative enough for my tastes.

Well, the FDP is by far the most fiscally conservative party in Germany. If you want something more radical this might not be the country for you, LOL. Budgetary discipline is their No. 1 priority (followed by tax cuts for middle and higher incomes as a second and keeping the social safety net as small as possible as a third priority)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, the FDP is by far the most fiscally conservative party in Germany. If you want something more radical this might not be the country for you, LOL. Budgetary discipline is their No. 1 priority (followed by tax cuts for middle and higher incomes as a second and keeping the social safety net as small as possible as a third priority)

More so than the CDU?

I'm of the position that the social safety net should be larger here, especially as AI changes everything.

 

[Virtual ghost]

More so than the CDU?

Yes.

CDU is generally party of rural family people that like to get the job done.
While FDP is generally the party of ambitious business people that tend to be urban in every way.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yes.

CDU is generally party of rural family people that like to get the job done.
While FDP is generally the party of ambitious business people that tend to be urban in every way.

I'd prefer CDU, I think.

 

[Red Herring]

More so than the CDU?

Definitely. The CDU normally has no issue with the social safety net per se. That's like asking "are you for or against public roads". They tend to be on good terms with the business world but don't actively hate on poor people. The main difference between CDU and FDP is that the FDP is more fiscally conservative and socially more progressive (sort of). The difference between CDU and SPD is that the CDU is more hesitant to implement or accept social changes and leaning more towards the employer side and have a very ambivalent position in immigration. The main difference between the CDU and the AfD is that the AfD is much more anti-immigration and wants to kill off the entire current system while the CDU created the current system.

The people the AfD hate the most are the Greens (i.e. what they consider woke urban progressives who want to regulate everything and spell the death of German culture and identity). The CDU is currently going through an identity crises in that they traditionally also hated the Greens but now sometimes cooperate or even co-govern with them and repeatedly had to join the chorus of the "mainstream" parties in condemning the latest death or rape threats from the far-right against the Greens or other competitors.

My current home state is ruled by a coalition of CDU and the Greens and our CDU governor has recently suggested to his fellow party members nationwide that when in doubt the CDU should rather governor with the far-left Linke than with the AfD! That was previously considered an unthinkable alliance (think someone like Colin Powell and AOC governing together to keep MAGA out of government). Sadly the CDU in the East is keeping much less of a distance.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I'd prefer CDU, I think.

To tell you the truth so do I.
FDP stye to communication is something that I find toxic and very ideological in most cases. I don't have a fundamental problem with the idea of free market but you have to recognize when you are pushing things too far and thus you are creating problems. I mean those two parties have their equivalents all over Europe. So the story is similar all over the places, although in many places FDP like parties crashed in support. Since people couldn't stand this ideological 24/7 show. While CDU like parties tend to be rural and thus more practical, what means that they are less likely to fall into pure ideological zeal or being the everyone's favorite idol.


Or if you want it in typological sense:

CDU - e1
FDP - e3

 

[Virtual ghost]

Biden's path to winning the Electoral College runs through the Midwest

Speaking of the obvious.

 

[SensEye]

Well, the FDP is by far the most fiscally conservative party in Germany. If you want something more radical this might not be the country for you, LOL. Budgetary discipline is their No. 1 priority (followed by tax cuts for middle and higher incomes as a second and keeping the social safety net as small as possible as a third priority)

I like what I'm hearing. But honestly, it the devil is in the details. Budgetary discipline is my #1 priority too so that sounds good. However, I would not want to gut the social safety net. I fully support publicly funded education and universal health care and things like that. I don't know where Germany stands social safety net wise. I feel things have gotten out of hand in Canada though. The general policy of the left (and even the center) in Canada is: More free stuff for everybody (but especially the poor)! Spiraling deficits and debt to GDP ratio be damned!

I can see where all this is leading (nowhere good) and so I am a bit hypersensitive about these issues. But I am fine with social safety programs if the government runs a balanced budget and holds the lines on taxes (which are plenty high in Canada already).

 

[Virtual ghost]

I like what I'm hearing. But honestly, it the devil is in the details. Budgetary discipline is my #1 priority too so that sounds good. However, I would not want to gut the social safety net. I fully support publicly funded education and universal health care and things like that. I don't know where Germany stands social safety net wise. I feel things have gotten out of hand in Canada though. The general policy of the left (and even the center) in Canada is: More free stuff for everybody (but especially the poor)! Spiraling deficits and debt to GDP ratio be damned!

I can see where all this is leading (nowhere good) and so I am a bit hypersensitive about these issues. But I am fine with social safety programs if the government runs a balanced budget and holds the lines on taxes (which are plenty high in Canada already).

If you want perfect fit of a party for you that is something you wouldn't find even in the most developed multi-party system. Especially since the details shift based on leadership changes, regional flavors and circumstances. Therefore some smaller compromises have to be made.
However out of German parties FDP is indeed best fit for you in the terms of "content". Average member of FDP isn't for litteral wrecking of people with austerity. After all Germany still has collective trauma over what happened there a few generations ago. However based on your statements supporting of large scale immigration could be your top problem with the party.

 

[Maou]

Please do not re-elect Biden. He is literally a cooperate American puppet. I will literally lose immense respect for anyone who thinks he is literally running the country, and not some shadow puppet at this point.

That aside, I would like to know the plethora of drug cocktails they plan to give him if they let him debate Trump.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Please do not re-elect Biden. He is literally a cooperate American puppet. I will literally lose immense respect for anyone who thinks he is literally running the country, and not some shadow puppet at this point.

That aside, I would like to know the plethora of drug cocktails they plan to give him if they let him debate Trump.

I still will vote for him.