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Random political thought thread.

Coriolis

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I disagree, but I think fascism takes on different guises in different historical periods. I would have preferred to have used stuff referencing other forms of fascism rather than just Nazism for my previous post. That's what I managed to find, though, which is not unexpected given it's the most famous example.
I don't disagree that Trump is a fascist, just pointing out that his support for the attempted insurrection does not make him one. His goals for governance do. Did you look at the video I linked? I think @The Cat linked it earlier somewhere, too. He goes through the basic tenets of fascism, which shows where it is different from, say, USSR style communism or an absolute monarchy.
 

Maou

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Sad to say, renting and buying booze are not constitutionally protected rights. Voting is. Means to help people get acceptable ID in ways that do not effectively disenfranchise them can easily be built into the voter ID laws themselves, and should be. I have yet to see a voter ID law that does this. Yet court after court, often staffed with Republican appointees, has found actual voter fraud levels to be negligible, often in single digits even in large constituencies.
Having voter ID would be a huge benefit for everyone. Democrats are just scared that they won't be able to cheat anymore of the government had more voter secueity. You're also assuming that people are once again, incapable because they are "disenfranchised". I don't see whats so controversial of having an ID to vote. The government itself "disenfranchises" everyone just by existing. A minor inconvenience of having to get another ID is an easy price to pay for better voting security.

Yes, let the evil doers doo their own audit lol. Totally legit. Also, I am mainly referring to the federal elections, and a handful of local ones. Not all of them are corrupt.
No election is perfect. They are, after all, a human endeavor and humans are not perfect. Voter irregularity in our elections, however, has been minor compared with other nations where corruption is rampant and democracy is merely a show. I don't know that Trump cheated in the last election, though the recordings of him trying to pressure election officials into "finding" more votes in his favor suggest he tried. Court after court, again with Republican-appointed (often Trump-appointed) judges presiding, have found election results fair. Nothing was stolen. Trump was a sore winner when he did win, and now that he did not, is an even sorer loser.
There is nothing Trump does that everyone else doesn't also do. The only difference is the media says its bad when Trump does it, and celebrates it when Democrats do it. Some people are massive hypocrites. There is plenty of people who have come forward since 2020 btw, who admitted to election fraud and were indicted.
When we elect a president, we are always electing by implication the cabinet, staff, and advisors he will appoint. President is a huge job. No one can do it alone. Good presidents, as I mentioned in referencing Eisenhower, choose good advisors, and then hear them out. Trump chose yes-men whose number one feature was personal loyalty to him, above even loyalty to the Constitution. It sounds like the only one really willing to stand up to him on occasion was his daughter Ivanka, and even she didn't get very far.
This is entirely your opinion. I think Trump specifically chose originalists and libertarians.
Sadly in our political system, the general election comes down to a choice between two candidates, neither one of whom we may consider anywhere near ideal. This sometimes motivates people to vote for "third party" candidates, whether as a protest, or to avoid compromising their own principles. The fact is, though, that until something changes significantly, one of the two main party candidates will win. Anyone who doesn't cast a vote for one of them is essentially abdicating their effective choice. Anyone who thinks their life will be the same regardless of how they vote, well, all I can say is the past several years if nothing else should have shown the difference. I for one prefer to vote for someone whose heart and values are in the right place, even if he might have to rely upon advisors a little more than perhaps a younger fellow. American democracy has no place for political leaders who use personal loyalty as a litmus test.
And I prefer to vote for someone who isnt trying to make USA communist shithole. Biden is literally the worst president in history. The issue with a lot of people is they are completely ignorant and naive when it comes to just how evil the plutocracy is. This right vs left shit is entirely orchestrated.

Everything needs to come down to fix it. Say what you want about Trump, at least I believe he actually cares for America. The fact he is hated by the establishment should prove to you just how anti-plutocratic he is. They have to resort to lying and false iditements to even have the possibility of Democrats winning. They have NOTHING, and Biden did nothing but flush the economy down the toilet.
 

Virtual ghost

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This style of posting proves that allies and NATO have to send various high quality diplomats into US. In order to starts genuine peace negotiations before all of this turns into genuine civil war. Especially since this is exactly what certain genuine dictators would want and are trying to spark through trolling comment sections.
 

Maou

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This means what, exactly? I have health problems, too. They've made me even less likely to vote for Trump, than I was. I think you and I are scared of very different things, at the end of the day.
I think we are scared of the same things actually. Most people want the same things. Its just how to go from A to B where things get "lost in translation" in the marketplace of ideas.
 
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I think we are scared of the same things actually. Most people want the same things. Its just how to go from A to B where things get "lost in translation" in the marketplace of ideas.
I think for me it's something I noticed when I was growing up. It's really not that hard to fool most the populace with an obvious, unconvincing lie. (It especially helps if the lie is repeated. I think somebody else said that once.) I associate one particular party with this kind of behavior and they haven't changed 20 years later.
 

Maou

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I think for me it's something I noticed when I was growing up. It's really not that hard to fool most the populace with an obvious, unconvincing lie. (It especially helps if the lie is repeated. I think somebody else said that once.) I associate one particular party with this kind of behavior and they haven't changed 20 years later.
That's the real kicker. I think the same thing. It's almost as if there is a psychological phenomenon at work here. The real question is now, if both of us experienced the same thing...who is actually right? Or perhaps...it's because it's working as intended to keep us divided. Who has the power to play both sides, to pit us against each other? So we are so busy worrying about right vs left, moral dilemmas and "atrocities" to focus on where all the money goes amd why things perpetually get worse, and who is actually responsible. You have to wonder if its all actually just made up to make you mad in the first place. Its feeling like nothing you believe ever mattered, because nothing ever changes in the grand scheme of things. One big giant political theater, with really well payed actors and volunteers from the audience who think its all real. Like wrestling even.
 

Coriolis

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Having voter ID would be a huge benefit for everyone. Democrats are just scared that they won't be able to cheat anymore of the government had more voter secueity. You're also assuming that people are once again, incapable because they are "disenfranchised". I don't see whats so controversial of having an ID to vote. The government itself "disenfranchises" everyone just by existing. A minor inconvenience of having to get another ID is an easy price to pay for better voting security.

Yes, let the evil doers doo their own audit lol. Totally legit. Also, I am mainly referring to the federal elections, and a handful of local ones. Not all of them are corrupt.

There is nothing Trump does that everyone else doesn't also do. The only difference is the media says its bad when Trump does it, and celebrates it when Democrats do it. Some people are massive hypocrites. There is plenty of people who have come forward since 2020 btw, who admitted to election fraud and were indicted.

This is entirely your opinion. I think Trump specifically chose originalists and libertarians.

And I prefer to vote for someone who isnt trying to make USA communist shithole. Biden is literally the worst president in history. The issue with a lot of people is they are completely ignorant and naive when it comes to just how evil the plutocracy is. This right vs left shit is entirely orchestrated.

Everything needs to come down to fix it. Say what you want about Trump, at least I believe he actually cares for America. The fact he is hated by the establishment should prove to you just how anti-plutocratic he is. They have to resort to lying and false iditements to even have the possibility of Democrats winning. They have NOTHING, and Biden did nothing but flush the economy down the toilet.
Trump cares about Trump, and possibly some of his wealthy and powerful cronies, at least the ones who can help him get more attention. The way he demands personal loyalty from staff, as evidenced by his own words, should give any supporter of democracy cause for concern. Whatever his faults, Biden from what I have seen genuinely cares about ordinary people and can empathize with their situations. Doesn't mean he always does the most effective thing to help, but it's a start, and better than not being able to relate.

And yes, measures that effectively prevent people from voting, even if that is not their stated intent, are unconstitutional as courts at various levels have ruled over and over again. Poll taxes, literacy tests, and so on. Any voter ID mandate must include the means for eligible voters to get an ID, even if they are indigent, itinerant, uneducated, or poorly connected. None of that is required by the Constitution to have the right to vote.
 

Maou

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Trump cares about Trump, and possibly some of his wealthy and powerful cronies, at least the ones who can help him get more attention. The way he demands personal loyalty from staff, as evidenced by his own words, should give any supporter of democracy cause for concern.
I disagree with this whole heartedly. You'd only have this opinion of you've only read left wing media. Sure, Trump is a "troll" and likes to argue, and can be an asshat. But his actions puts Americans first. Not trying to play world police.

Whatever his faults, Biden from what I have seen genuinely cares about ordinary people and can empathize with their situations. Doesn't mean he always does the most effective thing to help, but it's a start, and better than not being able to relate.
I'd love to see a clip of Biden having a coherant thought in general, that isn't heavily edited. Twitter doesn't count, because the PR teams run social media.
And yes, measures that effectively prevent people from voting, even if that is not their stated intent, are unconstitutional as courts at various levels have ruled over and over again. Poll taxes, literacy tests, and so on. Any voter ID mandate must include the means for eligible voters to get an ID, even if they are indigent, itinerant, uneducated, or poorly connected. None of that is required by the Constitution to have the right to vote.
Oh so the constitution is infalliable in this regard, but the 2A etc needs to be revised. Voter ID is as easy as combining it with drivers or states ID. I don't know what other stuff you think they are going to add to it, but its not as bad as you think.
 
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That's the real kicker. I think the same thing. It's almost as if there is a psychological phenomenon at work here. The real question is now, if both of us experienced the same thing...who is actually right? Or perhaps...it's because it's working as intended to keep us divided. Who has the power to play both sides, to pit us against each other? So we are so busy worrying about right vs left, moral dilemmas and "atrocities" to focus on where all the money goes amd why things perpetually get worse, and who is actually responsible. You have to wonder if its all actually just made up to make you mad in the first place. Its feeling like nothing you believe ever mattered, because nothing ever changes in the grand scheme of things. One big giant political theater, with really well payed actors and volunteers from the audience who think its all real. Like wrestling even.
You felt that way 2008-2016, correct?

I was a skeptic towards Obama during primary season, and I didn't vote for him then. The narrative made it out to be as though there was this big difference between him and Hillary. I watched a few debates, though, and he appeared to be quite similar to her regarding positions. They were both centrist moderates; why everyone I knew was making him out to be a revolutionary, I'll never know.

I did vote for him in the general, despite my skepticism. I tended to give him the benefit of the doubt during his administration. There were two issues in his second term for which I didn't, neither of which I will address here.

I did like his speeches about bringing the country together; black and white, red and blue, male and female, etc. I came to believe briefly (during the first half of 2015) during the end of his term that he'd begun the process. I went out in the world with my girlfriend at the time, and the things I did and saw actually did give me hope. It did feel like there was some kind of healing going on.

This didn't come to pass, regrettably.

You wrote that nothing ever changes in the grand scheme of things. This may be obvious, but I think some want to keep things the same, and some want to change things.

Of the people who want to keep things the same, I think Obama is one of those. I've seen him intervene too many times in favor of the status quo for this to not be the case. The fact that this campaign slogan included the word "change" in it doesn't override my observations. I've seen him make that stop gesture too many times when making press conferences. I did give him the benefit of the doubt, but I never felt he was in my corner.

Of the people who want to change things, some changes are good and some bad. I think my judgment on which changes are which is encapsulated by a relevant slogan: the one I found most appealing was "Not me, us." I don't want a personality cult, whether it's Democratic or Republican. I want things to be better. "Not me, us" acknowledges that it's not just about having one person in a position of authority from which you follow decrees, but it's about what all of us do. It's the message that if we work together, we can accomplish this. Unfortunately, part of the problem was that there wasn't enough working together. Some people were too harsh and aggressive in going after Buttigieg and Warren supporters and were blinded to the idea that Biden could have even been a threat.
 

Virtual ghost

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In my book the two of you are trying to figure this out from the wrong direction. You are trying to figure this internally and I would say that the origin of the problem is external (outside of US). In other words the more USA stays as it is the more it is losing pace with the world that has little to do with what existed some 30 years ago. The others simply developed new economic models, new constitutions, new technologies, new factories etc. 30 years ago China was nothing in particular. There was no Eurozone, ASEAN, MERCOSUR as they are today. Africa didn't have any modern infrastructure ... etc. Plus not to mention the internet as it is today, which basically completely abolished your isolation. Since now everyone can contact anyone or anything inside of US within seconds. In other words you are wasting too much energy on your own partisan politics and your past. Since the key is in what the others are doing (because such actions have quiteobservable consequences). However that is much more complex topic and thus most prefer to skip it.
 
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In my book the two of you are trying to figure this out from the wrong direction. You are trying to figure this internally and I would say that the origin of the problem is external (outside of US). In other words the more USA stays as it is the more it is losing pace with the world that has little to do with what existed some 30 years ago. The others simply developed new economic models, new constitutions, new technologies, new factories etc. 30 years ago China was nothing in particular. There was no Eurozone, ASEAN, MERCOSUR as they are today. Africa didn't have any modern infrastructure ... etc. Plus not to mention the internet as it is today, which basically completely abolished your isolation. Since now everyone can contact anyone or anything inside of US within seconds. In other words you are wasting too much energy on your own partisan politics and your past. Since the key is in what the others are doing (because such actions have quiteobservable consequences). However that is much more complex topic and thus most prefer to skip it.
I'm trying to speak with another individual and share why I think the way I do, because I'd like to see what happens.


 
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Virtual ghost

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I'm trying to speak with another individual and share why I think the way I do, because I'd like to see what happens.



Perhaps you wouldn't believe me but that is pretty much what I am doing.

Doing these kinds of brainstorms for the sake of personal past is perfectly ok. But from time to time going into wider perspective wouldn't hurt in the terms of conclusions. After all that might actually show how irrelevant is partisan politics in the big picture that is the world stage. I just find it strange to skip this part when you are trying to realize why your life looks as it looks.
 

ceecee

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I'm trying to speak with another individual and share why I think the way I do, because I'd like to see what happens.


Why? That person doesn't reside in reality at all. They need mental health care from a professional, not a conversation.
 
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Why? That person doesn't reside in reality at all. They need mental health care from a professional, not a conversation.
I thought the discussion took an interesting turn and I wanted to see where it lead. I don't have a specific goal beyond that.
 

Virtual ghost

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Why? That person doesn't reside in reality at all. They need mental health care from a professional, not a conversation.


Lack of conversation is exactly what has pushed so many into the Trump's arms. Now it is perhaps too late to fix this but stigmatizing people probably wouldn't do much good to anyone. Even if mentioned people indeed have metal health issues.
 

ceecee

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Lack of conversation is exactly what has pushed so many into the Trump's arms. Now it is perhaps too late to fix this but stigmatizing people probably wouldn't do much good to anyone. Even if mentioned people indeed have metal health issues.
Pointing out that a person has created an entirely imaginary reality is generally a hallmark of mental illness. Supporting politicians that support health care for all is a more normal way to approach that. It's not stigmatizing, it's a PSA.

None of those politicians are Donald Trump though, no matter how many right wingers insist he really cares about Americans. I couldn't even type that without laughing.
 

Virtual ghost

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Pointing out that a person has created an entirely imaginary reality is generally a hallmark of mental illness. Supporting politicians that support health care for all is a more normal way to approach that. It's not stigmatizing, it's a PSA.

None of those politicians are Donald Trump though, no matter how many right wingers insist he really cares about Americans. I couldn't even type that without laughing.


Of course, but with too much hostility you are only pushing those people back into the fold. While in reality they should get the path through which they can get out of what evolved into a cult over the years. In other words they can't really get help until you open them the path to get out.

As you probably know every vote will matter in November. So let's not make this worse than it should be.
 
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