Prejudice against Sensors?

[zarc]

Meaning...........we need the J for speed in making up the mind (versus the P), right? And, since this thread is about Sensors (whose 'opposite' is N), my example of SJ versus NJ. I wasn't trying to get to the nitty-gritty of 'speed of decision making' across all types. It was a response to another poster regarding close-mindedness in the SJ, hence, my comparison of NJ. J being the key, not the sensing (or intuition) <-- this was my point.

I wasn't pointing out the difference between S and N as it being the focal difference (just put that in to explain what Pi is for curious folks who don't know). Hmm, lemme clarify.

"J" isn't the key for all Js was my point lol. What you're saying would only apply to ENJ and ESJ because they are (Extraverted) Judging types. Je. I was trying to explain that it's different for ISJ and INJ. They're still J by type code only but they are (Introverted) Perceiving types. Pi.

Follow me now?

 

[Halla74]

I have a guess as to why this is, aside from what's already been said--

This place is kind of an escape for many iNtuitives. Since we're a minority in the real world (about 25-30% of the population), we constantly have to live and work in the Sensory world, which is not our natural playing field.

I am mocked by Sensing friends, family and co-workers in real life constantly for not being attuned to my physical surroundings and the realistic details of the here and now. And since 70-75% of people are Sensors, this is perfectly acceptable in common practice. "LOL look at the stupid NP that can't remember to tie his shoes or put gas in his car."

And that's perfectly okay, because most people really do find that to be stupid. Yet when I mock someone for lacking iNtuitive abilities, now suddenly I'm an asshole. Why would you expect anyone to understand that shit? Making fun of people for not grasping abstract intuitive systems, wow, what a fucking dick!

The attitude I get constantly is something to the effect of, "If you're so smart as to understand all this hypothetical bullshit, how can you be so stupid as to not understand basic rules of common courtesy? You must intentionally be an asshole!"

And without fail, the only people that understand what this is like are other Ns. We don't want to live in the real, tactile, Sensing world most of the time, but we have to, and we're tired of getting shit for not understanding it as well, so we gather here to talk shit about you. That's pretty much it.

F*#%ing Classic! I love your brutal and direct interpretation of what is apparently an unintentional but widespread, oppressive phenomenon.

 

[Qre:us]

I wasn't pointing out the difference between S and N as it being the focal difference (just put that in to explain what Pi is for curious folks who don't know). Hmm, lemme clarify.

"J" isn't the key for all Js was my point lol. What you're saying would only apply to ENJ and ESJ because they are (Extraverted) Judging types. Je. I was trying to explain that it's different for ISJ and INJ. They're still J by type code only but they are (Introverted) Perceiving types. Pi.

Follow me now?

Heck no!

Can you just clarify: with regards to Sensors, and especially SJs being close-minded, I replied that I don't think there's any difference in SJs being close-minded versus NJ (so, yes, the S versus N is applicable in this discussion), but that what the person may be referring to was the speed of decision making (which may look like close-mindedness).

Where am I mistaken in this?

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think that majority of people are just venting from real life experiances.

 

[kiddykat]

I feel pre-judged on a regular in everyday life.. for being an intuitive. I don't think that feels too good? That's ok. I usually keep to myself anyway. *shrugs*

 

[Quinlan]

Nothing about Sensing is inferior, neither its Introverted or Extraverted processes. Nothing should make it seem inferior either but people have this horrible habit of misunderstanding what things mean and then perpetuating that misunderstanding. Yea, I know.

The forum has more Ns? lol People take type and other’s type and people who’s type they think they know for granted due to some rudimentary understanding. There are probably a lot of mistyped people and people who've been mistyped by them from the whole gamut N S F T J P Z.

These people who mostly mock the supposedly S/SJ folk feel misunderstood and they place blame on their lack of cohesion with the masses (the SJ ofc), so they super glue their inferiority complexes* onto their heads for all to witness. Capitals N, NF, NT. Occasionally you’ll see NP, NJ.

When in reality, MOST people feel misunderstood at one time or another. Including ye behated Ss. Ssssss. Ssssss. errr Sssorry, haven’t slept two nights now.

If it’s not disdain of S or SJ, then it’s of the supposedly ice hearted NTs or the disgustingly gooey NFs and so on. (-- when there also exists ice cold NFs and warm NTs but we mostly ignore that) Ban together against a supposed threat or group who seems to be opposite from you and then the next day ban against thy enemy’s enemy.

I’m guessing it’s not really N vs S in real life or type, at all. It’s mostly people pitted against ignorance or intolerance. And most people just assume they'd happen to be S.

But an ignorant and intolerant person is just that. They can be S or N. A person who is well balanced from any type will seem wonderful and tolerant. The difference between a well balanced ESTJ and an unbalanced INFJ. You’d sooner think the ESTJ was more understanding and emotionally stable. And approachable.

Look at well known people who've been typed Ns, who succeed in an "SJ" dominated society and are appreciated or praised for their efforts by the masses. By the masses. Masses supposedly constituted by SJs, right? (There's no validating information about type division anyway, just estimates at best. But heeeey, people just believe what they wanna. It's easier to justify their pond of an existence against the big ocean of Life).

My best friend is an ESTP. Most people she encounters think she’s weird. She thinks I’m weird. Blackcat said it. Weird is an opinion, more so an interpretation. People mostly apply weird to what they don’t understand or what they find interesting but don’t recognise within themselves.

* not completely serious. But really, some of you do have it glued to your foreheads. Look in the mirror, the N will be staring back at you...

Zarc put it perfectly.

 

[Gauche]

On the forum, Intuition is held in high regard, and there's many instances of looking down on Sensors. I understand that the forum has way more intuits than sensors, but, why this prejudice? What about sensing (and its typological defintion) that makes it seem 'less superior' to intuition (as per the commentaries on this board)?

Once you become N, you understand...

In no way Im regarding sensors inferior (especially SPs)

 

[zarc]

Heck no!

Can you just clarify: with regards to Sensors, and especially SJs being close-minded, I replied that I don't think there's any difference in SJs being close-minded versus NJ (so, yes, the S versus N is applicable in this discussion), but that what the person may be referring to was the speed of decision making (which may look like close-mindedness).

Where am I mistaken in this?

You aren't mistaken except with what I bolded (the second part).

Kay. I think I see where we've side stepped one another on the yellow brick road to understanding, hopefully... With my first response, I specifically focused on the "greater speed of making up one's mind" which you attribute to "J" for both SJs and NJs. I disregarded the closed-mindedness part, because one, I'd already explained it to ajblaise above here and two, I agreed that I didn't think it's the same as being 'close minded'. I also agree I don't think there's much difference between SJ vs NJ, in terms of how they function. The why (Si/Ni) shows the difference.

So, what I was trying to do was clarify the differences of SJ and NJ further because Extraverted SJs and NJs are different breeds than their Introverted SJ and NJ pack.

Let's try again:

Now, SJ, like with NJ, or any J, allows for greater speed of making up one's mind

Attributing "J as the key" or that "it allows greater speed" in making a decision is where I'm trying to show it doesn't work for all Js. Je, Extraverted Judgment, can have greater speed, yes -- but for an EJ (ESJ/ENJ) only. Whereas, it's not the same for an ISJ or INJ, it's the opposite. Why? Because ISJ/INJ are NOT Judging types, they're Perceiving types.

Ever see an IJ (ISJ INJ) unable to make up their mind, that's when Pi (Si/Ni) gridlocks and refuses to do something through Je (Fe/Te). Coming to a decision or doing anything about it is much slower for an IJ.

So, it's quicker for EJs, I'm not saying better, but quicker than for IJs.

Hope I cleared it up. If I'm still not making sense, we can take this to PMs so as not to detract from your thread.

 

[ptgatsby]

Zarc put it perfectly.

Yup, he put it well.

What's interesting is that so far is that there is very little said anything about prejudice, most of it has focused on stereotypes.

On the other hand, I got a chance to run a little experiment when I changed from INTP to ISTP; a few others here are not what type they actually are/test as, and a few other things. I had a list from a couple of years back of things I wanted to try - people posting under different accounts, etc. In any case, there is a clear pattern of prejudice, meaning that people change their attitudes depending on the little characters you have next to the name. Regardless of behavior. Lots of forer too, but that's not news.

But this pattern isn't any different from any situation in which it can develop. Some say they aren't influenced, but are... some say they know they are, but it's ok because it's done to me (which is often questionable in the first place, or mis-attributed), and others rationalize it to avoid any internal disharmony.

Anyway, intelligence is the core identity for Ns. Since this is the primary axis that defines it, Ns look down on Ss. Typically the play down comes from those that aren't secure with who they are, giving rise to the need to feel superior... and that's the axis to do it with.

 

[pure_mercury]

I have a guess as to why this is, aside from what's already been said--

This place is kind of an escape for many iNtuitives. Since we're a minority in the real world (about 25-30% of the population), we constantly have to live and work in the Sensory world, which is not our natural playing field.

I am mocked by Sensing friends, family and co-workers in real life constantly for not being attuned to my physical surroundings and the realistic details of the here and now. And since 70-75% of people are Sensors, this is perfectly acceptable in common practice. "LOL look at the stupid NP that can't remember to tie his shoes or put gas in his car."

And that's perfectly okay, because most people really do find that to be stupid. Yet when I mock someone for lacking iNtuitive abilities, now suddenly I'm an asshole. Why would you expect anyone to understand that shit? Making fun of people for not grasping abstract intuitive systems, wow, what a fucking dick!

The attitude I get constantly is something to the effect of, "If you're so smart as to understand all this hypothetical bullshit, how can you be so stupid as to not understand basic rules of common courtesy? You must intentionally be an asshole!"

And without fail, the only people that understand what this is like are other Ns. We don't want to live in the real, tactile, Sensing world most of the time, but we have to, and we're tired of getting shit for not understanding it as well, so we gather here to talk shit about you. That's pretty much it.

See, now that DOES sound like a victim complex. It's not an inferiority complex, but you are describing this phenomenon on here as if it were a GOOD thing, when it is clearly not.

That being said, I like being super EJ and 50/50 S vs. N. It seems to confuse some people (online and IRL) greatly, and there are the exact kind of people I like to tweak, i.e., the people who are so convinced that they are "open-minded" that they are actually small-minded jerks.

 

[Giggly]

May I talk about my feeeeelings for a second? Thank you. (Ahem)

It's quite a strange bittersweet feeling to be an SJ on this forum. You can palpate the hate that's for sure and that makes me want to cry baby Jesus tears because I like many of the Ns. However, there's also something curiously interesting and fascinating about being labeled "normal" and being on a forum full of people who claim to be so "different". It's sort of like being in that movie "Shaun of the Dead", there's only a few of us SJs and the zombie Ns just want to eat us. It's great. I don't know about the rest of you but I run through the forum sections with a shovel in hand.

 

[pure_mercury]

May I talk about my feeeeelings for a second? Thank you. (Ahem)

It's quite a strange bittersweet feeling to be an SJ on this forum. You can palpate the hate that's for sure and that makes me want to cry baby Jesus tears because I like many of them. However, there's also something curiously interesting and fascinating about being labeled "normal" and being on a forum full of people who claim to be so "different". It's sort of like being that movie "Shaun of the Dead", there's only a few of us SJs and the zombie Ns just want to eat us. I don't know about the rest of you but I run through the forum sections with a shovel in hand.

See, it doesn't bother me that much other than offending my inherent sense of treating people fairly and taking them on their individual merits. But, then again, my best-developed function is EGO.

 

[Nonsensical]

May I talk about my feeeeelings for a second? Thank you. (Ahem)

It's quite a strange bittersweet feeling to be an SJ on this forum. You can palpate the hate that's for sure and that makes me want to cry baby Jesus tears because I like many of them. However, there's also something curiously interesting and fascinating about being labeled "normal" and being on a forum full of people who claim to be so "different". It's sort of like being in that movie "Shaun of the Dead", there's only a few of us SJs and the zombie Ns just want to eat us. I don't know about the rest of you but I run through the forum sections with a shovel in hand.

I feel bad for being an N . I think people underestimate S's, because I know a bunch of S's that are a lot smarter, cooler, more talented, and better off than myself. I think people label S's, and stereotype them in false ways which is a shame, because I think N's can't progress and learn without S's. Afterall, S's aren't really that different than N's..N's just like to think they're the smarter and better off ones..which isn't always true! Keep fighting for S/N equality!

 

[JocktheMotie]

I think it's the Sensors' fault we all haven't adopted Velcro as the primary method of fastening shoes to our feet. So what if it looks dumb. It's wonderful.

 

[Qre:us]

Once you become N, you understand...

????????

 

[Giggly]

I think it's the Sensors' fault we all haven't adopted Velcro as the primary method of fastening shoes to our feet. So what if it looks dumb. It's wonderful.

Shoe strings are sentimental in a way, but I think it's mostly because it's easier for velcro to come undone by accident. Just guessing.

 

[Nadir]

You don't have Intuitives thinking Sensors are inferior or vice versa.

You have traumatized people judging others.

 

[ajblaise]

Kids seem to like velcro shoes just fine. Older people get embarrassed by the obnoxious sound they make. The wisdom of children.

 

[Qre:us]

Yup, he put it well.

What's interesting is that so far is that there is very little said anything about prejudice, most of it has focused on stereotypes.

On the other hand, I got a chance to run a little experiment when I changed from INTP to ISTP; a few others here are not what type they actually are/test as, and a few other things. I had a list from a couple of years back of things I wanted to try - people posting under different accounts, etc. In any case, there is a clear pattern of prejudice, meaning that people change their attitudes depending on the little characters you have next to the name. Regardless of behavior. Lots of forer too, but that's not news.

But this pattern isn't any different from any situation in which it can develop. Some say they aren't influenced, but are... some say they know they are, but it's ok because it's done to me (which is often questionable in the first place, or mis-attributed), and others rationalize it to avoid any internal disharmony.

Anyway, intelligence is the core identity for Ns. Since this is the primary axis that defines it, Ns look down on Ss. Typically the play down comes from those that aren't secure with who they are, giving rise to the need to feel superior... and that's the axis to do it with.

Thank you for this post. I like that you picked up on the difference that we haven't really been talking of prejudice but stereotypes - which is an emotional reaction to stereotypes. Which, as you say, we do see in terms of a person entering the forum with a certain label attached to them, and their treatment, thereafter.

However, I think it calls for scrutiny to look carefully at the stereotypes (it is a step that is needed for prejudice to occur, afterall), and try to see if we can deconstruct some of them. Hence, me asking about some of the misconceptions in terms of definitions attributed to sensing.

I don't know if intelligence is so much at the core of N, as it is, once again, erronous labeling of what constitues intelligence.
Possibilities as thoughts = intelligence?
Depth in detail of the concrete = intelligence?

 

[Qre:us]

Shoe strings are sentimental in a way, but I think it's mostly because it's easier for velcro to come undone by accident. Just guessing.

Velco string-bikini, or, bra.

Btw, it's pretty hard to be mean to an avatar of Pebbles. Who has been mean to you? I'll kick their azz!