Prejudice against Sensors?

[MoneyJungle]

Any system you come up with to classify people will inevitably include bigotry. I see it towards SJ types all of the time.

 

[Geoff]

The difficulty is the horrid bias against sensors in the minds of those - Isabel Briggs-Myers and so on, who formulated MBTI. She described sensing functions in an inferior way.. and the message stuck.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I am mocked by Sensing friends, family and co-workers in real life constantly for not being attuned to my physical surroundings and the realistic details of the here and now. And since 70-75% of people are Sensors, this is perfectly acceptable in common practice. "LOL look at the stupid NP that can't remember to tie his shoes or put gas in his car."

And that's perfectly okay, because most people really do find that to be stupid. Yet when I mock someone for lacking iNtuitive abilities, now suddenly I'm an asshole. Why would you expect anyone to understand that shit? Making fun of people for not grasping abstract intuitive systems, wow, what a fucking dick!

That whole post of yours - love your passionate expression!

On the other hand, I got a chance to run a little experiment when I changed from INTP to ISTP; a few others here are not what type they actually are/test as, and a few other things.

Agree with this - type is a label to proportions that can't be measured in an exact way. I think some ppl WANT to be a certain type, and they've taken the test enough times they can "get" that type as their result.

In any case, there is a clear pattern of prejudice, meaning that people change their attitudes depending on the little characters you have next to the name.

Agree with this too I do.

It's quite a strange bittersweet feeling to be an SJ on this forum. You can palpate the hate that's for sure and that makes me want to cry baby Jesus tears because I like many of the Ns.

Don't cry - many of us like you SJ's you know. Even if you are sometimes ... a tad focussed!

However, there's also something curiously interesting and fascinating about being labeled "normal" and being on a forum full of people who claim to be so "different". It's sort of like being in that movie "Shaun of the Dead", there's only a few of us SJs and the zombie Ns just want to eat us. It's great. I don't know about the rest of you but I run through the forum sections with a shovel in hand.

Just don't haul your shovel over this-a-way LOL! Although I thought that Shaun seemed like an NF to me ...

 

[Geoff]

The difficulty is the horrid bias against sensors in the minds of those - Isabel Briggs-Myers and so on, who formulated MBTI. She described sensing functions in an inferior way.. and the message stuck.

I know, responding to your own post can make you blind.. but anyway.

The second thing I wanted to add is that people who believe themselves intuitive, attach the things they don't like to the badge sensor. This is especially true of other people, and is largely (and simply) down to confirmation bias.

This is how it works :

Step 1 : Intuitive thinks intuition is "great" having read how wonderful it sounds, how it explains why they don't fit in, or feel normal.

Step 2 : Intuitive attaches negative connotations to the idea of "sensor". Any thing they don't like is badged as "sensory"

Step 3 : Intuitive meets someone they don't like, and badges them as a "sensor". This is because they believe sensors suck due to the attachment of negativity in step 2.

Step 4: The cycle repeats, as more and more negativity is heaped on people who's type they simply don't know, but who are badged as sensors. This works especially well for intuitives who are in a minority and can blame disliking a multitude of "normal" people as being the intuitive v sensor divide.

If only they *really* knew the types of the people they like and dislike, it could and probably would make a huge difference.

 

[Giggly]

Just don't haul your shovel over this-a-way LOL!

Nevar!

 

[Qre:us]

I have a guess as to why this is, aside from what's already been said--

This place is kind of an escape for many iNtuitives. Since we're a minority in the real world (about 25-30% of the population), we constantly have to live and work in the Sensory world, which is not our natural playing field.

Agreed.

I am mocked by Sensing friends, family and co-workers in real life constantly for not being attuned to my physical surroundings and the realistic details of the here and now. And since 70-75% of people are Sensors, this is perfectly acceptable in common practice. "LOL look at the stupid NP that can't remember to tie his shoes or put gas in his car."

That's sad.

And that's perfectly okay, because most people really do find that to be stupid. Yet when I mock someone for lacking iNtuitive abilities, now suddenly I'm an asshole. Why would you expect anyone to understand that shit? Making fun of people for not grasping abstract intuitive systems, wow, what a fucking dick!

So, either you're being sarcastic with the italicized 'perfectly okay' or you really do believe it. I bet on the former. If that is the case, and, thus, it's truly not okay for the mean sensors to be how they are to you, how then do you rationalize doing the same thing back? What box then do you have to stand on to complain about what's been done to you?

And without fail, the only people that understand what this is like are other Ns. We don't want to live in the real, tactile, Sensing world most of the time, but we have to, and we're tired of getting shit for not understanding it as well, so we gather here to talk shit about you. That's pretty much it.

I may be weird like this, but, I like relating on the level of understanding if it helps lift *my attributes* up, not when it puts another's down. That assumes my attributes aren't enough to make a commentary on in isolation, but that I need the devaluing of the opposite attributes, to find any kind of 'positive' about my own (it is a mock positive then).

 

[ajblaise]

I know, responding to your own post can make you blind.. but anyway.

The second thing I wanted to add is that people who believe themselves intuitive, attach the things they don't like to the badge sensor. This is especially true of other people, and is largely (and simply) down to confirmation bias.

This is how it works :

Step 1 : Intuitive thinks intuition is "great" having read how wonderful it sounds, how it explains why they don't fit in, or feel normal.

Step 2 : Intuitive attaches negative connotations to the idea of "sensor". Any thing they don't like is badged as "sensory"

Step 3 : Intuitive meets someone they don't like, and badges them as a "sensor". This is because they believe sensors suck due to the attachment of negativity in step 2.

Step 4: The cycle repeats, as more and more negativity is heaped on people who's type they simply don't know, but who are badged as sensors. This works especially well for intuitives who are in a minority and can blame disliking a multitude of "normal" people as being the intuitive v sensor divide.

If only they *really* knew the types of the people they like and dislike, it could and probably would make a huge difference.

The things they don't like about some sensor tendencies were in their head before they knew about MBTI. It just puts a label on it which allows for the murky thoughts to be organized.

 

[simulatedworld]

See, now that DOES sound like a victim complex. It's not an inferiority complex, but you are describing this phenomenon on here as if it were a GOOD thing, when it is clearly not.

That being said, I like being super EJ and 50/50 S vs. N. It seems to confuse some people (online and IRL) greatly, and there are the exact kind of people I like to tweak, i.e., the people who are so convinced that they are "open-minded" that they are actually small-minded jerks.

Victim complex, my ass. I'm not describing it as a good thing. Prejudice is shitty, but it's a fact of life, and iNtuitives do often band together for just the reasons I described. It's no coincidence that 90%+ of the close friends and romantic interests I've had throughout my life are N types. I'm sure it's worse for me than for others, being that I test 100% N, but the fact that you refuse to accept the reality of what I described is very telling of your own biases.

I've been trying to explain MBTI and some possible reasons for our disagreements to my ESFJ mother for years, and it's only slowly starting to sink in. (ESTJ older sister is even worse; if I ever try to use anything like MBTI to explain perceptual differences between us, she just openly mocks me. And no one that I know is worse about making patronizing lectures about how I need plans for my life. You'd think she's my damned mother.) Mom genuinely believes that things like occasionally forgetting to pick up a shirt off the floor are intentional attacks on her feelings, and that my MBTI explanations are pure bullshit. "Stop with the letters!" she says. "Any normal person would do [x stereotypical SJ thing]!" And that's just the problem--since my mental processes are less common, people who don't experience them don't tend to believe I'm telling the truth about them. You can see why it's a nice escape to find a community populated mostly by other N types who understand exactly where I'm coming from here.

I can't say I'm surprised that you'd interpret it as some kind of fabricated excuse to shirk responsibilities. Rest assured that, however bad the anti-S bias is here, the anti-N (and especially anti-NP) bias in the real world is much, much worse. Cry me a fucking river.

 

[PeaceBaby]

On the forum, Intuition is held in high regard, and there's many instances of looking down on Sensors. I understand that the forum has way more intuits than sensors, but, why this prejudice? What about sensing (and its typological defintion) that makes it seem 'less superior' to intuition (as per the commentaries on this board)?

And to this ... I think that much of the bias comes from particular periods in one's life stage. I personally think learning about MBTI too "early" can have a detrimental effect to learning how to congruently deal with other people. You can't just "blame" everything on those 4 little letters.

And sure, it feels frustrating to be in the minority. I totally get that. But you still have to learn to get along in the world, and manners on the forum are no exception.

Anyone who thinks they are "better" just because of their 4 little letters are misinterpreting the intention of the whole system.

 

[xx00oo00xx]

I'd have to say I like all you guys, regardless of type, because I get different angles on things, which I then incorporate into my overall understandings of stuff. And believe it or not, my experiences in the forum are helping me with my relationships IRL (you wouldn't believe how long it takes me to figure those acronyms out -- but that's 'cause I'm a SENSOR, right? Ha)

 

[Giggly]

Velco string-bikini, or, bra.

Thank you for illustrating the potential dangers of converting to velcro!

 

[Geoff]

The things they don't like about some sensor tendencies were in their head before they knew about MBTI. It just puts a label on it which allows for the murky thoughts to be organized.

Only partly true! The things they don't like about other people acquire the sensor label, even if the person they dislike is not actually a sensor. They just 1) suck and 2) haven't been formally typed.. so they "must be" a sensor...

 

[PeaceBaby]

Rest assured that, however bad the anti-S bias is here, the anti-N (and especially anti-NP) bias in the real world is much, much worse. Cry me a fucking river.

Wait, you need another one:

 

[BlueScreen]

I think the having trouble with some people who were sensors could be the cause as everyone is saying. You find myers-briggs, type some people who you don't like and see a pattern. Obviously it tends to be the people who are different to you that you have more trouble understanding. Problem with the theory is some of my favourite people are sensors. One ISFP, one ISTP. Why would you dislike these types? or any type when the person was nice.

A pattern though is many sensors do get annoyed with my sensotardation and expect me to just not have it, whereas as an intuitive you realise more quickly that most people aren't going to pick needles out of haystacks.

 

[Nadir]

Victim complex, my ass. I'm not describing it as a good thing. Prejudice is shitty, but it's a fact of life, and iNtuitives do often band together for just the reasons I described. It's no coincidence that 90%+ of the close friends and romantic interests I've had throughout my life are N types. I'm sure it's worse for me than for others, being that I test 100% N, but the fact that you refuse to accept the reality of what I described is very telling of your own biases.

I've been trying to explain MBTI and some possible reasons for our disagreements to my ESFJ mother for years, and it's only slowly starting to sink in. (ESTJ older sister is even worse; if I ever try to use anything like MBTI to explain perceptual differences between us, she just openly mocks me. And no one that I know is worse about making patronizing lectures about how I need plans for my life. You'd think she's my damned mother.) Mom genuinely believes that things like occasionally forgetting to pick up a shirt off the floor are intentional attacks on her feelings, and that my MBTI explanations are pure bullshit. "Stop with the letters!" she says.

I can't say I'm surprised that you'd interpret it as some kind of fabricated excuse to shirk responsibilities. Rest assured that, however bad the anti-S bias is here, the anti-N (and especially anti-NP) bias in the real world is much, much worse. Cry me a fucking river.

Newsflash for you:

Intuitives don't band together, because there's no such thing as an Intuitive. In your example, what happens is that a group of apparently misfit and "misunderstood" people group together and label themselves as Intuitive, and the "others" as Sensors, using "feel-good" 'reasoning' to justify the traumatic "Us vs. Them" attitude -- that's MBTI.

I'm very, very sure that you can't tell me that you wouldn't consider being a Sensor if only Sensors were described better in the literature than Intuitives. What happens to your beloved Intuition then? Don't come up with half-baked excuses about how you are 100% N and how others who have judged you or treated badly are S, that's just a simple distinction in your polarizing mind. You cry me a fucking river now, but you're pretty much a perfect embodiment of the judgmentalism described in the OP.

It's fabricated excuse to antagonize others, I'll tell you that. I can see you're bitter from the things you've lived through, but it doesn't justify what you're doing. Sorry.

 

[Geoff]

Newsflash for you:

Intuitives don't band together, because there's no such thing as an Intuitive. In your example, what happens is that a group of apparently misfit and "misunderstood" people group together and label themselves as Intuitive, and the "others" as Sensors, using "feel-good" 'reasoning' to justify the traumatic "Us vs. Them" attitude -- that's MBTI.

I'm very, very sure that you can't tell me that you wouldn't consider being a Sensor if only Sensors were described better in the literature than Intuitives. What happens to your beloved Intuition then? Don't come up with half-baked excuses about how you are 100% N and how others who have judged you or treated badly are S, that's just a simple distinction in your polarizing mind. You cry me a fucking river now, but you're pretty much a perfect embodiment of the judgmentalism described in the OP.

It's fabricated excuse to antagonize others, I'll tell you that. I can see you're bitter from the things you've lived through, but it doesn't justify what you're doing. Sorry.

 

[Quinlan]

You think being an NP is hard? Try being an FP male, or an IT female, or an ESFJ in law school, or ad infintum!

Life is so hard.

 

[simulatedworld]

Simulated World, we were also wondering how much of it (if any) was due to a misconception about what the Sensing function is.

Not much. It's primarily bitterness from having to deal with the harsh realities of the Sensing world on a daily basis.

 

[simulatedworld]

Newsflash for you:

Intuitives don't band together, because there's no such thing as an Intuitive. In your example, what happens is that a group of apparently misfit and "misunderstood" people group together and label themselves as Intuitive, and the "others" as Sensors, using "feel-good" 'reasoning' to justify the traumatic "Us vs. Them" attitude -- that's MBTI.

I'm very, very sure that you can't tell me that you wouldn't consider being a Sensor if only Sensors were described better in the literature than Intuitives. What happens to your beloved Intuition then? Don't come up with half-baked excuses about how you are 100% N and how others who have judged you or treated badly are S, that's just a simple distinction in your polarizing mind. You cry me a fucking river now, but you're pretty much a perfect embodiment of the judgmentalism described in the OP.

It's fabricated excuse to antagonize others, I'll tell you that. I can see you're bitter from the things you've lived through, but it doesn't justify what you're doing. Sorry.

It's a shame this post is so dreadfully stupid, because the last one I read by you was really brilliant.

I don't actually think that S-type people are actively thinking to themselves, "Gosh, that guy is a strong N according to MBTI and therefore I dislike him!" It's astonishing that your reading comprehension could be poor enough for you to think I meant that. I just think it's an awfully big coincidence that (and I have gotten nearly all of my friends and family to take the MBTI at some point) such a high majority of the people I've been close to throughout life have all scored xNxx on the test.

I've been treated poorly by N people, too. And nicely by S ones. I do have one close friend who's very ESFP, and I'm thankful for him--but he's the exception, and most of our friendship consists of bonding over common interest in music--we still don't identify that deeply on a mental/perceptual basis. If I have to answer such insipid garbage as "OMG IF MBTI IS SO TRUE WHY ISN'T IT RIGHT IN 100% OF CASES????" one more time I think I'm going to stab someone.

I typed myself as ENTP because when I discovered MBTI I read several descriptions for each type and found that the ENTP one consistently described me very well, in many ways. I also score strongly N on every assessment I've taken. No, I would not type myself as a Sensor if the supposed type bias in the literature were more S-favorable. What a nonsensical implication. If you're "very very sure" about something that you so obviously can't know anything about (my personal feelings and motivations), maybe next time you should double check your own poorly functioning iNtuition before you mouth off a bunch of bullshit.

You think being an NP is hard? Try being an FP male, or an IT female, or an ESFJ in law school, or ad infintum!

Life is so hard.

Yeah, I feel especially bad for NT females. The world just doesn't seem to appreciate them. (But I do!) FP males (along with T females and F males in general) also have trouble, I'm sure, due to gender biases. I feel for you guys.

 

[pure_mercury]

Victim complex, my ass. I'm not describing it as a good thing. Prejudice is shitty, but it's a fact of life, and iNtuitives do often band together for just the reasons I described. It's no coincidence that 90%+ of the close friends and romantic interests I've had throughout my life are N types. I'm sure it's worse for me than for others, being that I test 100% N, but the fact that you refuse to accept the reality of what I described is very telling of your own biases.

You make it sound as if it's OK, and it's not. It has nothing to do with bias; there are fair ways of dealing with people, and there are unfair ways of dealing with people, and the phenomenon you are describing is unfair and dehumanizing. You're perpetuating something that you decry, which is hypocritical.

I've been trying to explain MBTI and some possible reasons for our disagreements to my ESFJ mother for years, and it's only slowly starting to sink in. (ESTJ older sister is even worse; if I ever try to use anything like MBTI to explain perceptual differences between us, she just openly mocks me. And no one that I know is worse about making patronizing lectures about how I need plans for my life. You'd think she's my damned mother.) Mom genuinely believes that things like occasionally forgetting to pick up a shirt off the floor are intentional attacks on her feelings, and that my MBTI explanations are pure bullshit. "Stop with the letters!" she says. "Any normal person would do [x stereotypical SJ thing]!" And that's just the problem--since my mental processes are less common, people who don't experience them don't tend to believe I'm telling the truth about them. You can see why it's a nice escape to find a community populated mostly by other N types who understand exactly where I'm coming from here.

The communication problem isn't solely on their end. Take some responsibility.

I can't say I'm surprised that you'd interpret it as some kind of fabricated excuse to shirk responsibilities. Rest assured that, however bad the anti-S bias is here, the anti-N (and especially anti-NP) bias in the real world is much, much worse. Cry me a fucking river.

Only one of us is crying about the world's treatment, and it is not I. Don't project your own dissatisfaction onto others.