Please help me type myself – xNxx ???

[noname3788]

I don't know enough about you to be sure about that, maybe you already have some post about yourself around here that I could read?

Here is an older type-me post, however I didn't write lenghty answers in it. I basically never go into detail unless I feel it is necessary and beneficial, otherwise I naturally keep everything as short as possible. Sometimes I'm even feel guilty about this, like I should write longer answers, and it's not limited to forum posts but every form of writting conversations.

In your first post IIRC you asked me why I wanted to know my type. It was a question that I needed to be reminded of, a very useful one. At the beginning I thought that it could be useful to learn more about types for better character development in my books, as a tool. But I immediately discovered that typing was very powerful, that it resonated with the people around me, their behaviour, their motives (I always end up connecting everything to everything else). And so I started trying it on myself... and here I am.

For me, the initial question was somewhat different. I may have mentioned it before, I had problems with relating to other people, to forge lasting friendships, with rare exceptions. I felt different from other people around me, and had no logical reason why it is like that, and I wasn't even sure about who I actually am and what I want to value. I guess failing at finishing my engineering degree certainly contributed to the latter. While searching for things that may cause similar feelings, I eventually stumbled across MBTI, and I also needed to find a new career. My first MBTI test wasn't 16personalities (like for most people here, and 16p isn't even MBTI but a modified Big5) but some career site based on MBTI profiles. Like for you, my first result was INTJ, but I quickly realized that INTJ was how I felt I should be, not like I actually am. And that was the starting point for me to dig deeper.

Beside MBTI, I also read a lot about various things beside type that could make someone feel disconnected from others, like high sensitivity, depression, various disorders, aspergers and autism, giftedness, introversion in general etc. For most of these, I seem to have some aspects but none of it can explain the whole experience (and I don't want it to be mistaken for a need to be special...). I can easily recognize some of these traits in others, but not necessarily in myself. And self-diagnosing yourself with something that has positive effects (like HSP of gifted) always makes me think of myself as a possible impostor, like I just want something to feel good about my "superiority" implied by those traits. It sounds kinda stupid... So that's a look into my motivations with typology. I'm more confident now and accept myself, and things got a lot better once I started being comfortable with myself, my strenghts and weaknesses, and ironically it also helped with relating to other people. The perceived differentness never disappeared but I'm somewhat comfortable with it, it probably just means that I haven't found my people yet and need to do some more searching.

Okay back on you:

About your last comments, I can't relate to INFP - my wife is one, and even after 15 years knowing her, dominant Fi is a mystery to me. INTJ, as you know, was my first type back at the beginning of time, but I was never sold. Can I ask why you see it one of the least likely?

That's mainly based on experience, and somewhat on stereotypes. Your own explanation on why you're not INFP is spot on - nothing to add here. And INTJ's are usually quite sure about their INTJ-ness - many of them report a better understanding about themselves and their "weirdness" after reading an INTJ profile - you don't. Okay that explain nothing... you simply don't seem INTJ to me. You just don't fit the cold, detached stereotype, and it also doesn't seem like being warm and approachable is something you learned during your adulthood, but more of a natural preference. Overall, I guess there are 2 "themes" (don't know a better word) about you: One would be a gentle, empathetic being who cares about his relationships a lot, who likes to write stories about characters and goes fully in-depth about it, and another side that explores ideas, theories and possibilities with great enthusiam and curiosity, but also wary of logical fallacies and a well working bullshit-detector. Just a spontaneous idea, but you seem like a weird mix of INFJ and ENTP (at least if profiles based on functions are somewhat accurate) ... which would explain the xNxx. Ofc I don't know everything, and it is probably just a wild guess.

 

[Pionart]

[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION]

I'm not "sure", it's just what I was seeing.

By "inconsistent" with Fe dom, do you mean that you didn't really socialise? Fe has a lot to do with socialising, but it can be passive in just listening and observing what is going on, or internal and having imagined interactions.

Don't worry about type descriptions. I don't really read them at all really. Just get a feel for what the functions are and how you relate to each one.

 

[Vendrah]

[MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION]
[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION]

There is one thing we connect all... We all started thinking we were INTJs.
We are these "INTJ wannabes" to be pity at , we are poor subhuman animals! "The few real INTJs though are actual smart people and I have a mutual appreciation with every single one of them." - just completing, the INTJs are unflawed gods on earth, I can assure you every single one of them is that!


Yep the stupid and cruel is a real combo (the guy I mentioned seems to believe that for real)...

Anyway, my story at starting INTJ was related to two things... Me not doing what whole-truly what I wanted my whole life and the fact that it seems that the real shadow of an ENFP is INTJ and apathy. So, I was apathetical and there was some characteristics I wouldnt relate and I was very good at planning and very bad at executing the plan.. To the point where I entirely given up doing plans latter (I used to do them before MBTI). The shadow theory thing has zero evidence, however as I mentioned before, the data I crossed shows J/P seeing more vulnerable and N/S being immune to apathy and neuroticism, which are conditions that a shadow should appear in the shadows theory. And this wasnt the only thing that led me changed my mind (I thought shadow theory wasnt real at all) in ending november/starting on december, there are one other reason that I forgot lol.

And second, Mancion and noname3788 (you really should get a name, gives us poor wannabe INTJs sub-human animals a little more humanity!) dindt mentioned, but he is xNxx either. And this:

Are your results more or less the same through time? You can always distinguish N and always get boderline on other dimensions?

It is partially stable and changing. What remains consistent is the N preference and the 50/50 tie in T/F. J/P tends to flip other towards one or the other, i sometimes get somewhat strong preference for either side. E/I had it's own development, used to score with heavy I preference, which got weaker and weaker over time, and I actually noticed myself doing more extroverted activities recently. I'm still more of an introvert, but there are some E tendencies as well.

(that was a little bit more than a month ago)

So yeah, you two are quite similar. Function stack is similar too, but it isnt equal.
What gets special in yours is that it doesnt seem to be a case of apathy, neuroticism, depression (only feeling misplaced doesnt count as depression) or anything like that. People in doubt with type, getting different results, it does happen, but almost everytime I saw these confuse type me on the type me threads all were depressed, apathetical, had issues with anxiety or something like that. And these conditions surely disturbs typing, even though I never saw any study on that on part of MBTI folks.

I also had gathered different test results in years (at least 2 different years), and from the 10 I got, two has switches on J/P dimension: Mine and someone else.

Mine is:
2016 - INTJ
Early 2019 - INTP
Ending 2019 - INXP
And I was an extraverted person until hit by bullying and depression (it did happen when I was 13-15).

The other person is:
2009 - ESFJ
2011 - ENFP
2012 - EXFX

But I have no idea if this second case was depression, apathy or something like that, I admited it was at first.

I love his archetypes work, at multiple levels. However, if we believe what he wrote, that being extreme in any function is very unhealthy, the direct consequence would be that the easier is to find one's type, the clear one's preference are, the more unhealthy one is; on the other hand, the more one travels toward the middle, the more balanced one is, the better for one's psycologycal health; so being XXXX is the end of the journey! I'm not sure the typology community - especially Jungian - is aware of this.

Thats incorrect. I didnt actually managed to find the thread, but Jung stated somewhere the a undifferentiated person, or basically the interpretation for XXXX, is primitive. SO his thought was the opposite.

--

My Yin and Yang avatar story is... Well, first it was one of the few avatar on Playstation that wasnt boring (you are forced to pick instead of upload, so they can just put the boring ones from free and force you to buy the good ones - and I bought the Yin and Yang one). However, it came partially from this duality, ENFP-INTP duality, even though its more correct to say xNfP for me. I made a lot of thought, and perhaps I do really give use a little bit of INTPs perks and perhaps my INTP side is more than just a mask. I first thought that its very likely that I do study more than ENFPs in average, even if you limit the ENFPs with similar conditions to study like me. Second thing, the different typing methods that sounds more like INTP than ENFP, so I think I really give some real use into the INTP persona at least, and perhaps its more real than just a persona.
Perhaps you could see you as that either, like INFJ/ENTP Yin and Yang.

But given what I know, I still think that you are ENxP, or ENtP, the why I already said.

 

[mancino]

Busy week, late answer... sorry guys.
[MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] , thanks for the link to your type-me thread, I’ll look into in when I’m over with all this work that piles on my desk, I promise!

You don’t sound stupid at all with your search for meaning, looking into HSP and other stuff. I did it too! I have come to terms with the idea that being different does NOT mean being weird. I love the prehistoric tribe analogy: in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, we would be the shamans, the sages, the seers, carriers of deep knowledge and arcane wisdoms. Very different from the rest of the tribe, probably a minority of one but thoroughly needed.

You say “a weird mix of INFJ and ENTP”, to which I fully relate. I believe I should dig deeper in my intuition, understand its workings and nuances, in order to discover if it’s really introverted or extroverted. I’m not sold on the functions, but the dominant-inferior dynamic is the most palatable part.
[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] , like I said, functions don’t convince me much, nonetheless I don’t see being a people person as the core of myself, as I said I was shy kid and I enjoy my alone time much more than many Fe-doms that I know. Socializing, yes I did it, but I feel my intuition guiding my life, not my relationships – altouhg they are essential. Your strong opinion makes me think that the strong Fe that you saw in me could easily be my aux if I’m IJ – that’s the definition of aux in Js, ins’t it, the first thing you see of them. So I’d count you on the INFJ side, if you’re ok with that.

Profiles I don’t trust either, but self-description by real people are insightful, and I relate quite a bit with many self-proclaimed INFJs, especially male, especially when they say they are “heavy Ti-tertiary”. That is something that can’t be discarded easily.
[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , how funny the INTJ-wannabies club, let’s start one! You know, I think that the world rewards being T and J a lot, so we intuitives all feel the pressure of acquiring a xNTJ persona, and losing our true character in the process.
I’m sorry that you went through a rough period, I hope you feel better now. I agree depression and mood swings make typing difficult – but then maybe it doesn’t really matter at that stage.

With my XXXX I didn’t mean an undifferentiated person, just someone that shows no clear preference in a dichotomy test. I believe they say integrated or something like that. I read the link you posted some time ago at sakinorva that crushed the cognitive functions. And I came to a conclusion: MBTI and neo-Jungian typology (based on cognitive functions) are two separated systems. They have some tricky similarities, but they are not the same and should not be mixed. I did in the past, but I’ll try not to any more.

MBTI is more like a modified Big 4. In that system I relate with my current scores as per the semi-official MBTI test that I posted earlier, which said ENTP. But that does not say much about myself, my inner workings so to speak. It’s like my height and weight: I’m 173 cm and 72 kg – I fully relate to it but it does not say much about how I’m built, or how I look.
Then you have neo-Jungian typology. It’s a weird system with little scientific base, but still, it works for many people. It gives you the dream of discovering the way you think, feel and perceive life. The dream is tempting. I’m not sure it has the truth in it, but the mere difficulty of trying it for size pushed me to dig deeper in my conscience, which is a very good thing.
If I accept the foundation of this system, at this point I can accept that I relate more to the Fe-Ti axis than to the Te-Fi axis. And I feel deep inside that I’m a N-dom, S-inferior. Therefore, I could either be a INFJ with a strong Ti (consistent with my development as a child and teenager, and supported by [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] and, maybe, by [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION]) or an ENTP (consistent with my outward presentation as it is measured in an MBTI test, and supported by [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION]).

I can’t go any further than here for the time being, but that’s more than I hoped when I wrote the first post one week ago. And I’ve met three nice and interesting people like you, guys!
This is such a fulfilling journey.

 

[Pionart]

[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] my opinion here isn't strong. I really only had a quick look - enough to get a guess of what your type may be. So I could be way off.

Though I will say that ENFJ can be quite Ti as well. As an INFJ, I am usually aware of the environment around me and I do things like drink and smoke, so Se is a pretty constant thing.


Regarding XXXX as the goal: I don't think that's a good goal, because you're naturally better with your dominant function than your inferior. It would be like saying people should use their left and right hands equally, which is an odd thing to say.

 

[Vendrah]

Busy week, late answer... sorry guys.

[MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] , thanks for the link to your type-me thread, I’ll look into in when I’m over with all this work that piles on my desk, I promise!

You don’t sound stupid at all with your search for meaning, looking into HSP and other stuff. I did it too! I have come to terms with the idea that being different does NOT mean being weird. I love the prehistoric tribe analogy: in a tribe of hunter-gatherers, we would be the shamans, the sages, the seers, carriers of deep knowledge and arcane wisdoms. Very different from the rest of the tribe, probably a minority of one but thoroughly needed.

You say “a weird mix of INFJ and ENTP”, to which I fully relate. I believe I should dig deeper in my intuition, understand its workings and nuances, in order to discover if it’s really introverted or extroverted. I’m not sold on the functions, but the dominant-inferior dynamic is the most palatable part.

[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] , like I said, functions don’t convince me much, nonetheless I don’t see being a people person as the core of myself, as I said I was shy kid and I enjoy my alone time much more than many Fe-doms that I know. Socializing, yes I did it, but I feel my intuition guiding my life, not my relationships – altouhg they are essential. Your strong opinion makes me think that the strong Fe that you saw in me could easily be my aux if I’m IJ – that’s the definition of aux in Js, ins’t it, the first thing you see of them. So I’d count you on the INFJ side, if you’re ok with that.

Profiles I don’t trust either, but self-description by real people are insightful, and I relate quite a bit with many self-proclaimed INFJs, especially male, especially when they say they are “heavy Ti-tertiary”. That is something that can’t be discarded easily.

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , how funny the INTJ-wannabies club, let’s start one! You know, I think that the world rewards being T and J a lot, so we intuitives all feel the pressure of acquiring a xNTJ persona, and losing our true character in the process.
I’m sorry that you went through a rough period, I hope you feel better now. I agree depression and mood swings make typing difficult – but then maybe it doesn’t really matter at that stage.

With my XXXX I didn’t mean an undifferentiated person, just someone that shows no clear preference in a dichotomy test. I believe they say integrated or something like that. I read the link you posted some time ago at sakinorva that crushed the cognitive functions. And I came to a conclusion: MBTI and neo-Jungian typology (based on cognitive functions) are two separated systems. They have some tricky similarities, but they are not the same and should not be mixed. I did in the past, but I’ll try not to any more.

MBTI is more like a modified Big 4. In that system I relate with my current scores as per the semi-official MBTI test that I posted earlier, which said ENTP. But that does not say much about myself, my inner workings so to speak. It’s like my height and weight: I’m 173 cm and 72 kg – I fully relate to it but it does not say much about how I’m built, or how I look.
Then you have neo-Jungian typology. It’s a weird system with little scientific base, but still, it works for many people. It gives you the dream of discovering the way you think, feel and perceive life. The dream is tempting. I’m not sure it has the truth in it, but the mere difficulty of trying it for size pushed me to dig deeper in my conscience, which is a very good thing.
If I accept the foundation of this system, at this point I can accept that I relate more to the Fe-Ti axis than to the Te-Fi axis. And I feel deep inside that I’m a N-dom, S-inferior. Therefore, I could either be a INFJ with a strong Ti (consistent with my development as a child and teenager, and supported by [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] and, maybe, by [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION]) or an ENTP (consistent with my outward presentation as it is measured in an MBTI test, and supported by [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION]).

I can’t go any further than here for the time being, but that’s more than I hoped when I wrote the first post one week ago. And I’ve met three nice and interesting people like you, guys!
This is such a fulfilling journey.

This conversation is been super interesting, you are welcome, forgot to say you are welcome to the other posts. You are right saying that I did put some passion on it, some sort of passion! And this thread even changed slightly a bit how I see me and somehow is a litte bit of a type me thread of my own.

But talking about your typing, you could see it the same way I do. I actually discarded the idea that my INTP is really a persona in just a few days.. The reason is simple. A persona, at least in the wikipedia (the resume of the resume of Jungs work), is supposed to be more or less a sophisticated social mask. I dont read Jungs work directly because its incredible hard to get its books in my language, reading Jung is not easy and I wish he was more directly (it would even avoid these interpretations issues... For example, in the auxiliary function where we dont know if Jung pairs meant, for example of Ne, Ne-Ti, Ne-Fi or Ne-Te,Ne-Fe or I believe he meant both but Im unsure of). But, if the persona is really a sophisticated social mask, it means that it should "disappear" while you are alone in a bedroom, which, in my case, it pretty doesnt.

The Sakinorva owner had posted average marks for each type in her/his cognitive function test (based on persons declaration of type, you can insert a type on a form before you get your own results). I meant, for example, you have which type has the highest and the lowest agreement on question number 1, and that for each question. I kind of explored that in these last days, although the way you interpret it is a little subjective or a single question can relate to a lot of types and you have to pick up ones (I centered my attention to all NPs since Im stable NP, and what wasnt NP related I went right to ISTJ, and only them I considered to be a characteristic very of my own) I realized a lot of INTP characteristics that I have based on the questions directly, the more ENFP ones, ones that seemed to be more of my own but were out of NPs (I found one ENxJs trait that I share). I am a lonely son created by an ISTJ mother (thats why I jumped to ISTJ when none of the NPs had a marking similar enough to me), I actually manage to realize some characteristic that I inherited from being "created" by ISTJ. There are a lot of sensing traits on my communication way, making me sound sometimes a lot like ISFP (instead of INFP), ISTP (instead of INTP) or ESFP (instead of ENFP), although the latter is not common because Im quite distant from ESFP and I am quite different from ESFP a lot of things (my INTP side makes I more distant... INTPs and INTJs are like each other and INTJs are more or less the opposite of ESFPs). It looks like that using metaphors is a common way to intuitives and in this forum but I barely use any metaphor at all in my communication. Although parts of my INTPness is literally my own "nerfing of Fe" to my own self-protection and based on the fact that I dont relate much to my enviroment or to people around me, and perhaps you used to be the same. But there are things unrelated to trauma that are more INTP thing, like the way I deal with data.

I could pass up the link, you could save the marking on each question you did, and analyse each intuitive answers so you can pick up which trait you have from which intuitive. I think that is not that uncommon that we are somewhat mixed in traits. I also noticed from Sakinorva test that I get ENFP on the Grant-result on almost all the time (although their Grant comes from sum typing and not Grant originally, if it was the original one it would get an error message) and usually INTP on the mbti part. Only a little bit less than a third of the results the Grant and MBTI matches on Sakinorva. I used to think its more like a fail, specially from the Grant result part, but I recently thought that perhaps that test did catch my "yin" in one method and my "yang" in the other one. From the stats, INTP-ENFP is the most common mixed result (the third most common of all results. The most common one is INTP-INTP), which makes me think that there are more people in my situation than I imagined from the beggining. No one is crazy enough to mark INTP wing ENFP or INTP wing ENFP on the signature, but when I see something like ENFP 5w4, or some ENFP with E and F weak on the results, perhaps these are people that are like me.

So, I dont think this yin and yang is that realistic, although I would like to point that Im 99.95% sure Im not bipolar. You could be ENTPwINFJ.

 

[mancino]

The more I think about our difficulties and mistyping, the more I come to the same conclusion: there is a logical fallacy somewhere.

My current reasoning is as follows:
- According to Big 5 theory, traits vary during life; they even measure it (I saw a study somewhere, which stated that, when you grow older, you get more extraverted, conscientious and agreeable.
- MBTI is been shown to tap into four out of five Big 5 personality traits.
- Both systems rely heavily on self-report tests with personal questions of the same kind.
- So, it is to be expected that the outcome of a MBTI self-report is going to vary during one’s life.
- However, MBTI theory states that type doesn’t change

Therefore, I see two possible situations:
- Either tests are reliable, therefore MBTI does change, but that implies that MBTI theory is wrong.
- Or MBTI type is fixed, but then changing MBTI test results are unreliable, invalidating tests altogether.
Either way, we’re stuck with an inconsistency in the usual test-type equivalence.
What do you think?

(My take is that test results DO change, and a lot, at least for myself)

 

[noname3788]

The more I think about our difficulties and mistyping, the more I come to the same conclusion: there is a logical fallacy somewhere.

My current reasoning is as follows:
- According to Big 5 theory, traits vary during life; they even measure it (I saw a study somewhere, which stated that, when you grow older, you get more extraverted, conscientious and agreeable.
- MBTI is been shown to tap into four out of five Big 5 personality traits.
- Both systems rely heavily on self-report tests with personal questions of the same kind.
- So, it is to be expected that the outcome of a MBTI self-report is going to vary during one’s life.
- However, MBTI theory states that type doesn’t change

Therefore, I see two possible situations:
- Either tests are reliable, therefore MBTI does change, but that implies that MBTI theory is wrong.
- Or MBTI type is fixed, but then changing MBTI test results are unreliable, invalidating tests altogether.
Either way, we’re stuck with an inconsistency in the usual test-type equivalence.
What do you think?

(My take is that test results DO change, and a lot, at least for myself)

I agree with you, but someone needs to play devil's advocate. MBTI allows for varying results. The actual test (form M or form Q) is only a stepping stone towards type... in the end, the certified practitioner has the last word on someone's type, and he/she is the one who understands the functions. Most of the time, the pracitioner comes to the same result as the test, but sometimes not. Also, the theory allows some changes to behavior, when someone grows older, they are supposed to be more adept with their tertiary and inferior functions, creating a well-rounded individual. However, the functional stack remains the same. And sometimes, the functions don't happen to develop in their natural stack order, that's when you enter the realm of loops and grips, oh and don't forget about the shadow functions, which are still there. You see, all those things are perfectly explainable with cognitive functions

 

[Meowcat]

The more I think about our difficulties and mistyping, the more I come to the same conclusion: there is a logical fallacy somewhere.

My current reasoning is as follows:
- According to Big 5 theory, traits vary during life; they even measure it (I saw a study somewhere, which stated that, when you grow older, you get more extraverted, conscientious and agreeable.
- MBTI is been shown to tap into four out of five Big 5 personality traits.
- Both systems rely heavily on self-report tests with personal questions of the same kind.
- So, it is to be expected that the outcome of a MBTI self-report is going to vary during one’s life.
- However, MBTI theory states that type doesn’t change

Therefore, I see two possible situations:
- Either tests are reliable, therefore MBTI does change, but that implies that MBTI theory is wrong.
- Or MBTI type is fixed, but then changing MBTI test results are unreliable, invalidating tests altogether.
Either way, we’re stuck with an inconsistency in the usual test-type equivalence.
What do you think?

(My take is that test results DO change, and a lot, at least for myself)

My opinion is that people with different types will still look different after getting older.


As for your typing; The Ni is clear tbh. You go deep af, lol. I think you are definitely a Feeling type, since you said

""When making a decision, you rely more on your feelings than on analysis of the situation
You trust reason rather than feelings" (...) My answer to all of these is that… it depends! I know that I should look for a pattern the thing is that I don't see any.
My decision making process is a logical and sensible one which also takes into account personal considerations and human concerns."

Feeling types think that human factors matter just as much as other practical considerations.

Feeling and NF is also obvious from how you easily talk about all the soul stuff in your posts above lol

Also "a weird mix of INFJ and ENTP" I knew people like you.

Actual ENTPs come off more mechanical to me if that makes sense.

So try on the Ni-Fe for yourself imo

 

[mancino]

My opinion is that people with different types will still look different after getting older.


As for your typing; The Ni is clear tbh. You go deep af, lol. I think you are definitely a Feeling type, since you said

""When making a decision, you rely more on your feelings than on analysis of the situation
You trust reason rather than feelings" (...) My answer to all of these is that… it depends! I know that I should look for a pattern the thing is that I don't see any.
My decision making process is a logical and sensible one which also takes into account personal considerations and human concerns."

Feeling types think that human factors matter just as much as other practical considerations.

Feeling and NF is also obvious from how you easily talk about all the soul stuff in your posts above lol

Also "a weird mix of INFJ and ENTP" I knew people like you.

Actual ENTPs come off more mechanical to me if that makes sense.

So try on the Ni-Fe for yourself imo

Yeah, [MENTION=39881]Meowcat[/MENTION] , I've been trying the Ni-Fe suit for size since last Xmas, and it fits quite a bit. I remember the when and how I first had the glimpse that I could be a "feeler" after all, it sounded weird! So much macho-pressure, you know, I said "no way". But then, when you stop resisting it... it makes perfect sense.

I've also dug deeper (ah, going deep, this is starting to sound like the movie Inception...) into the Ni vs Ne definition. Long story short, intuition is a tricky, elusive thing. But I can see my long-lasting mistake attributing Thinking characteristic to my Intuition.

I've read that your dom and aux make 90% of yourself, and that aux develops during teenage and early adulthood years. So, around 7 to 10yo should show almost pure dom functions (it's amazing how this is so true in my daughter's friendss). If I had to choose only ONE function to describe myself at 10, that would be Ni, but my own kind of Ni. I've read that Ni is very personal, like many introverted functions, so maybe... yes; I wasn't Ne, I'm quite sure, I wasn't that scattered; and neither Ti, not that introverted; nor Fe, I was'nt focused on socializing above all else.

About the ENTP being mechanical, if you mean like "void" inside (cynical), that is something I've seen in some friends of mine.

Thanks for your comments, one more point to the INFJ candidate!

 

[Meowcat]

Yeah, [MENTION=39881]Meowcat[/MENTION] , I've been trying the Ni-Fe suit for size since last Xmas, and it fits quite a bit. I remember the when and how I first had the glimpse that I could be a "feeler" after all, it sounded weird! So much macho-pressure, you know, I said "no way". But then, when you stop resisting it... it makes perfect sense.

I've also dug deeper (ah, going deep, this is starting to sound like the movie Inception...) into the Ni vs Ne definition. Long story short, intuition is a tricky, elusive thing. But I can see my long-lasting mistake attributing Thinking characteristic to my Intuition.

I've read that your dom and aux make 90% of yourself, and that aux develops during teenage and early adulthood years. So, around 7 to 10yo should show almost pure dom functions (it's amazing how this is so true in my daughter's friendss). If I had to choose only ONE function to describe myself at 10, that would be Ni, but my own kind of Ni. I've read that Ni is very personal, like many introverted functions, so maybe... yes; I wasn't Ne, I'm quite sure, I wasn't that scattered; and neither Ti, not that introverted; nor Fe, I was'nt focused on socializing above all else.

About the ENTP being mechanical, if you mean like "void" inside (cynical), that is something I've seen in some friends of mine.

Thanks for your comments, one more point to the INFJ candidate!

Np, glad it helped. It's cool if you did find the right type for yourself.

I do personally think that "feely" men if they accept themselves as being that way, they come off way better, way more attractive (to me), just overall more balanced.

Interesting about the childhood development stuff. I'm not sure what I'd pick to describe myself... I'll post in my own thread about this though when responding to you there.

 

[mancino]

Just as a follow-up to the profound discussion that we had, I pondered about my N preference and, in my internet wanderings, I found two clues that point in the direction of me being an Ni-dom.

A brief foreword: although this is cognitive-function-speak, I believe that it correlates strongly to dycothomies as it refers to dominant functions.

The first is from a post by reckful himself comparing Ne and Ni.

N in general is, to a significant extent, about what you might call connecting the dots, and "Aha!" moments of one kind or another are charactistic of every N type. But an NJ's characteristic "Aha!" moment is more likely to be a moment when they figure out a pattern that's really out there (at least as they see it) — and by "really out there" I mean "real" in the sense of existing in the world independent of the NJ's subjective perspective. A typical NJ is signicantly less likely than you to experience a thrilling "Aha!" sensation when it occurs to them that, "Aha," I've just thought of a third (or fourth or fifth) "true" way to view that same set of facts! NJ is more about winnowing down the possibilities and settling on the one correct (or best) truth/explanation/interpretation, while NP is more about reveling in the multiplicity of possible truths/expanations/interpretations.
And so, hand in hand with that, the NP connect-the-dots process tends to have more of a creative aspect to it. The NP is less likely than the NJ to view any particular dot-connection activity in terms of simply figuring out an existing connection that's already there in the world (even if no one else had previously discovered it) and more likely to view it as creating a perspective on the facts that doesn't necessarily exist "out there" (independent of the human mind) and that it's possible no one else would ever have thought of other than this particular NP.
I'd say that's one of the reasons NTPs, rather than NTJs, are the quintessential inventor/entrepreneur types, and why the ranks of successful creative artists have (as I understand it) significantly more INFPs than INFJs.

An IN_J's default attitude with respect to the quest for truth and meaning is more likely to be that, although it may be "out there," it's out there in a world with a pronounced tendency to present itself as a chaotic mess. An IN_J in search of hidden truths expects to have to work at it, and will more characteristically expect that whatever progress she may manage to make is more likely to take the form of a slow-but-sure lifetime effort, with each new insight building on previous insights, and with the outside world offering more resistance than cooperation (which is not to say there may not be some gratifying "Aha!" moments along the way). An IN_P on a similar quest for truth is more likely than the IN_J to view the quest as, to a substantial degree, a project in discovering the appropriate mode for receptively viewing/experiencing a world that seems to have a message — albeit, perhaps, a relatively vague and ineffable message — that it wants to deliver to the IN_P adventurer who can manage to shuck her mainstream cultural blinders and wander around, trusting her instincts, until she happens onto the path that leads her up the right mountain (but with her "right" mountain not necessarily being anybody else's right mountain).

I forgot where I found the second, but it's one of the best description of Ni that I've ever read. It refers to INTJ in socionics, but it works nicely nonetheless:

ILIs operate with Ni base, making them naturally attuned to detecting hidden trends, meanings and patterns in the world around them. With intuition being introverted, the ILI is capable of reviewing long-term patterns from the past and making predictions into the present and future. This is because Ni operates similarly to Si, in that Ni needs to build models of the world by reviewing data over longer time periods. This differs to Ne base found in ILEs and IEEs who are attuned to possibilities in the present.
Introverted intuition could be best described as finding purpose and meaning beyond what can be immediately experienced that links to greater universal but fundamental truths of how the world functions. Someone with base Ni would for instance look at a clock but what they see and experience is not the clock itself but how the clock is representative of the concept of time. Further examination of the clock and the concept of time could lead to the search for greater and deeper universal truths such as how time controls the concepts of life and death and the apparent cyclical nature of the universe itself.
Ni being a perceptive function allows for information to be stored, reviewed and distilled over time into grander, universal concepts. It is this distillation process of information that allows the ILI to make predictions into the future, and it is this distillation that associates Ni with time. By time one ought to not confuse Ni with the concept of time itself either as a standard of measurement or how we understand change and movement in the physical world, but by how Ni detects and connects to universal patterns in the sense-world. It is therefore more accurate to say that Ni is timeless -- it exists outside the detected space-time continuum. It is thus this ethereal existence that allows the Ni base type to connect to time, and one can argue that Ni is capable of seeing through time itself due to its ability to detect universal concepts and patterns that are true regardless of context specifics. An example of such pattern is that one must first be born in order to be considered a living being.

Following this two definitions, I have no doubts: I'm an Ni-dom.

And, as my F was quite strong according to many (myself included), then my best-fit type is probably INFJ.

I've read many profiles and comments by male INFJs, and I relate pretty strongly to them, especially with the more "Calm" guys (not the "Limbic" ones). So, for the time being, it looks like a conclusion!
Although the journey never really ends...

 

[Meowcat]

[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] Pretty cool descriptions there

Thougg the reckful one is weird too to me because it sounds like it equates NJ with Ne and NP with Ni here:

"And so, hand in hand with that, the NP connect-the-dots process tends to have more of a creative aspect to it. The NP is less likely than the NJ to view any particular dot-connection activity in terms of simply figuring out an existing connection that's already there in the world (even if no one else had previously discovered it) and more likely to view it as creating a perspective on the facts that doesn't necessarily exist "out there" (independent of the human mind) and that it's possible no one else would ever have thought of other than this particular NP."

Like the NP one is introverted and the NJ one is extraverted

PS: But I'm not trying to start a discussion or an argument over this, I'm not that interested, I just thought of this when reading.

 

[mancino]

I read it like this:
the NP (Ne-user) creates the perspective/connection as a new, original idea, and extraverts it into reality, from inside to outside;
the NJ (Ni-user) discovers the perspective/connection as a preexisting idea and introverts it into his consciousness, from outside to inside.

 

[Meowcat]

I read it like this:
the NP (Ne-user) creates the perspective/connection as a new, original idea, and extraverts it into reality, from inside to outside;
the NJ (Ni-user) discovers the perspective/connection as a preexisting idea and introverts it into his consciousness, from outside to inside.

OK like I said I'm not arguing about this. Thanks for adding your thoughts though.

 

[noname3788]

Following this two definitions, I have no doubts: I'm an Ni-dom.

And, as my F was quite strong according to many (myself included), then my best-fit type is probably INFJ.

I've read many profiles and comments by male INFJs, and I relate pretty strongly to them, especially with the more "Calm" guys (not the "Limbic" ones). So, for the time being, it looks like a conclusion!
Although the journey never really ends...

I'm happy that you could figure it out And I wanted to thank you for your thread and your thoughtful responses. I tried to help you when I wrote my first response, but in the end you actually helped me to figure out some things about myself. The interesting part about the journey is, now that I know the result, the type, it became meaningless. It's just some kind of closest approximation within some system, not the complete self (and I still wonder why my inner self believed this, while my mind knew the answer). I guess it will be similar for you. And no the journey doesn't end there, we're always capable of learning and improving, which also modifies our outlook and perception of the world, and maybe also personality itself, as new thought patterns become avaible while others may be abondoned. I guess that's just another way of growing, and leaving behind artificial barriers that actually don't exist.

 

[Vendrah]

I read it like this:
the NP (Ne-user) creates the perspective/connection as a new, original idea, and extraverts it into reality, from inside to outside;
the NJ (Ni-user) discovers the perspective/connection as a preexisting idea and introverts it into his consciousness, from outside to inside.

NP doesnt equal Ne and NJ doesnt equal Ni.
Ne is outside (objective) oriented, so Ne doesnt take something inside to outside by the original Jung definition. It only deals with outside.
Ni is inside-subjective oriented, so Ni doesnt take things from outside. Actually, it only does on unconcious level.
These proccesses where stuff goes from outside to inside, inside to outside, some sort of alternation, needs to use multiple cognitive functions by original definition I already mentioned earlier. You cant have these process with only one cognitive function. Realistically, most of our thoughts and activitys uses multiple cognitive functions rather than just one, including creative processes.

However, the same thing cant be said about NP and NJ and this is a good aspect to tell the difference between NP to Ne and NJ to Ni. However, I have some trouble finding sources explaining NP and NJ only in terms of dichtomies (no stacks or pairs), only the ones you posted. Reckful mentioned NJ having some sort of outside-orientation (which cant be applied to Ni), and some internal orientation for NP (which cant be applied to Ne), which contradicts his other posts that says that Ne=NP, Ni=NJ and so on with other cognitive functions, because as should be somewhere in my earlier posts it is incorrect.

What I said before about ExxP relies about the analysis of the history of MBTI results you posted combined with the analysis about E/I I did earlier. Mainly, the interpretation of the variation says that, if you are I, then you are J, or if you are J, then you are I; Or, if you are E, you are P, and if you are P, then you are E. Just earlier I came up with the idea that you are extroverted retreated to introversion because of IQ, although I would find strange for the case, it could be that instead you are naturally introverted and extraversion is your adaptation. In that case, it would be J. These are connected, hope you get the connection.

Anyway, this thread is kind of derailing, like some stuff need to be discussed in another topic.

 

[Vendrah]

[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] Pretty cool descriptions there

Thougg the reckful one is weird too to me because it sounds like it equates NJ with Ne and NP with Ni here:

"And so, hand in hand with that, the NP connect-the-dots process tends to have more of a creative aspect to it. The NP is less likely than the NJ to view any particular dot-connection activity in terms of simply figuring out an existing connection that's already there in the world (even if no one else had previously discovered it) and more likely to view it as creating a perspective on the facts that doesn't necessarily exist "out there" (independent of the human mind) and that it's possible no one else would ever have thought of other than this particular NP."

Like the NP one is introverted and the NJ one is extraverted

PS: But I'm not trying to start a discussion or an argument over this, I'm not that interested, I just thought of this when reading.

Because as I said in my post up above, NP is extroverted and introverted at the same time and NJ is either as well. Because E/I isnt even being mentioned, xNxP have an "x" on E/I dimension, because that dimension is not even used on any NP description (or, in more pratical matter, SP and SJ definitions doesnt depends on E/I).
Ne doesnt equal NP and doesnt equal EN (same for Ni). It would equal to EN if Myers didnt made swaps into E/I definitions (E/I definition in Myers are different than in Jung, in short terms MBTI E/I is more focus on social/human aspect, while the Jung one is wider and, when applied to cognitive functions, is more focus on the objective/subjective, internal/external).

 

[mancino]

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , dude, welcome back! It’s a pleasure to hear from you again.

I know, the OP is far gone after almost 40 posts, and some stuff is a bit OT. Nonetheless, as the “Ni vs Ne” debate is at the heart of my typing doubts, I thought it was important to share it here.

I am not a cognitive function believer, so take all that I say regarding to that approach with a grain of salt. That being said, the comparison I made referred to Ne and Ni as dominant functions (the part of the neo-Jungian typology I’m less in disagreement with).

With that in mind, an Ni-dom is on the Ni-Se axis with Se inferior, that supports my view of the outside-to-inside movement, inwardly. On the other hand, an Ne-dom is on the Ne-Si axis with Si inferior, which implies the inside-to-outside movement, outwardly. That is in line with the common view of INxJ as bookworms, know-it-all, life-long learners: they gather patterns as they see them in the world, and store in their N memory. In contrast, ENxP look for patterns that they actively create, so that they are more experimenters, adventurers, button-pushers. It all fits nicely.

When you start considering N in other function roles (e.g. auxiliary) it starts to get messier, and dichotomies and functions models start to diverge, but for the scope of this thread (that is, typing myself!) I assume that we can skip that mess.

In my personal case, I could also add that I’ve been pondering on all this for quite a time, and eventually I came to the realization that this outward-to-inward movement is what I do naturally, effortlessly, all the time.
[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , you know I bought into your insight about me being either I+J or E+P quite a while ago. Since you told me, I examined my daily activities and came to realize that I am J, maybe just mildly but I have that urge for things being settled, that need for closure, especially in the world of concepts and ideas.

All this is because my strong N is what dominates my type so, for example, J-ness has to be examined in the N world, not in the usual “order vs mess” thing. I’ve read something that made me think: N has a “pull” towards P and T, because it can look like logic/analysis (resembling T) and scattered/not in the moment/not dealing with “things” (resembling P); therefore, a strong N can mask your natural F and J preferences. I believe it’s my case!

In dichotomies speak, my view now is that being I and N and J is a strange combo: looking for patterns to come to closure. The pattern is “the” pattern in the sense that you have it inside (introverted), detached from the object, but comes from outside. Then you use your inner symbol and forget about the real thing (inferior S). This is understanding the deeper meaning, I guess.

On the other hand, if you change that to E + N + P, you get that active exploration of the world, generating possibilities and following them wherever they may lead. I don’t see that as an introverted activity, on the contrary, it looks pretty extroverted, from inside to outside. As I said, discovering by pushing, pulling, twisting, metaphorically – I’m talking about patterns and abstracts. The pattern ends up being there in the world because you put it there, a quintessential E behavior.

(I am not looking into the other two combos, ENJ and INP, as they don’t fit in my case, and I’m not knowledgeable enough to go any further!)

 

[Meowcat]

Because as I said in my post up above, NP is extroverted and introverted at the same time and NJ is either as well. Because E/I isnt even being mentioned, xNxP have an "x" on E/I dimension, because that dimension is not even used on any NP description (or, in more pratical matter, SP and SJ definitions doesnt depends on E/I).
Ne doesnt equal NP and doesnt equal EN (same for Ni). It would equal to EN if Myers didnt made swaps into E/I definitions (E/I definition in Myers are different than in Jung, in short terms MBTI E/I is more focus on social/human aspect, while the Jung one is wider and, when applied to cognitive functions, is more focus on the objective/subjective, internal/external).

Ok yeah I meant that it seems like it associated one with only extraversion and the other one only with introversion