Please help me type myself – xNxx ???

[mancino]

Please help me type myself – xNxx

Hi everybody!

This is my first post here on Typologycentral, although I’ve been reading about MBTI and Jung typology here and elsewhere for a long, long time.

I’m writing because I’m stuck with clarifying my type, so I decided to ask for help – something I usually don’t do. I appreciate any insight you may have and, as English is not my native language, I apologize beforehand for any mistake and/or obscure wording.

I discovered MBTI some years ago, and my first test on 16personalities gave me INTJ. I read the profile there and had the feeling of elation that everybody has when you read how you think and feel as if your mind had been read by a psychic. I immediately became addicted to tests and sites about MBTI, and so my problems started.

The more I read profiles, the more I found things here and there that I could relate to more. I eventually admitted that I didn’t fit with the typical INTJ profile: I’m not cold, I get along well with people, I more an ambivert than a full-blown introvert, I can be efficient but I don’t like it. Other test – dichotomies and functions alike – gave me different types: INTP, ENTP, ENTJ at the beginning, when I wasn’t questioning my T, and then INFJ, once ENFP and, lastly, ENFJ with the Typologycentral test I’ve just done before posting this.

(btw, this were the results, in case it matters: (with scores)

Ni>Ne>Fe>Te>Ti>Fi>Si>Se
Ni 9
Ne 5
Fe 2
Te 1
Ti -1
Fi -2
Si -6
Se -8)

The thing is, I’m 46 and I’ve changed so much in my life that I’m confused between two divergent assumptions. Maybe my true self is who I am now, and I’ve spent all my life uncovering it, so how I am now leads to my MBTI type. Or, maybe I am so well-rounded that any MBTI stereotype is not going to fit, therefore it would be easy to uncover my type by thinking about myself when I was in my twenties. For example, am I an introvert who has learned to socialize and connect with people, or an extrovert who was shy but finally overcame it? The only thing I’m sure about is my very strong N; the rest is foggy at least.

I’m going to tell you more about me, so that you can have more info in order to, maybe, see the light that I’m not seeing ;-)

Of all the profiles I’ve read around – and I’ve read A LOT –, two things stand out as the more fitting:


These are INTJ and INFJ kid’s profile from Character traits for kids that are still true, based on your MBTI | Well+Good
They fit like they knew me:

INFJ
A quiet kid who relished time on your own, you read constantly and studied because you loved it—not because you had to. You had a couple close friends, but you had a hard time trusting others enough to open up. But when you did, you turned into the most loyal, insightful friend.

INTJ
You were the shy, somewhat reclusive thinker who always saw the bigger picture. You did exactly what you needed in order to get perfect grades, but no more and spent the rest of your time reading or researching whatever you wanted. You didn’t care for rules or normal social conventions; sometimes you hung out with your friends, but most times you didn’t. You were an enigma to most.

On the other hand, this is from a ENTJ vs ENTP comparison at ENTP vs. ENTJ: The Difference | Psychologia
The fitting part is about ENTP’s ambition:

Both types are ambitious, but the ENTJ is more ambitious than the ENTP. The ENTP is an entrepreneurial type who enjoys finding loopholes and workarounds. They aren’t too concerned about impressing others or gaining power. They want to be able to have fun while having their financial needs fulfilled and without anyone telling them what to do, and that’s about it for the ENTP.

(I pick these out of hundreds of profiles, trust me)

If I say that I was an INxJ when young and an ENTP now, that would describe me quite well. I am talkative, but was very shy and embarrassed when young, and with girls all the way to my twenties. I had to strive to fit with all the sensing boys all into football, I was a nerdy teenager (videogames, role playing games), and struggled to relate with girls; I was never lonely, though, as I always had some close friends to hang out with.
I was great at math and abstract reasoning in general, and I’ve always been very sensible and caring with my friends.

I had two mayor crisis and life-changing decisions in my life.
I had a hard time picking my major: I ended up graduating in telecom engineering studying less than my peers and with straight-A grades (I’m Italian and in the Italian systems grades are very important), but I considered majoring English or some other foreign language (one of my passions), or maybe psychology. The thing is, engineering was the best University in my city, with the best work potential; the others were lousy Unis with little-to-none job perspectives. And my parents could not afford my studying in some other city.
Engineering was kind of easy and oppressive at the same time: I dind’t have to work hard but I hated the human environment and spent there the least amount of time possible. After a couple of years, I was fed up, but could not make myself throw away all I had done. So… I found a workaround (first turning point): apply for an Erasmus grant to study abroad. Long story short, I spent one year in Norway (only option with English courses) and another year in Madrid, where I ended up graduating and finding my first job.

I’m a perfectionist and an achiever, but not a workaholic – on the contrary I try to achieve the maximum result with just the right effort: I couldn’t stand the working environment in the telecom company I worked for (7 years there), long hours, competition and shallow appearances. So, after a long internal struggle, I eventually quitted (second turning point) and got into teaching. For the last 11 years I’ve been teaching Italian as a foreign language to Spaniards in Madrid. Less pay (but stable, I work for the government), more free time, less pressure… and I love sharing my knowledge in a peer-to-peer environment without the stiff hierarchy of a big firm. In class, we all have fun together, and they learn too!

I’m great at abstract reasoning, number and spatial thinking always were my forte, but I’m also good with words.
I came out first in a compulsory “aptitude test” out of 4000+ first-year engineering students (the test was basically pattern recognition and logic, pretty much like an IQ test). But I’m also a great communicator (I’ve been told). I was chosen to represent my former telecom firm at a London-bases conference, where I spoke in front of 300 attendees who liked my delivery (so they said in a questionnaire); in general I love public speaking and debating (some “debater” ENTP profiles fit me quite well), if the subject is not trivial (otherwise I smile and chat but it’s like a show). I’m also a good writer: I’ve self-published three novels, thrillers in Italian and Spanish, with good reviews; they are fast paced and full of action and dialogue, but with deep themes and character development.

I’m very active and sporty, judo black belt and doing CrossFit. I can be on the move with a lot of things going on but I always crave more time for reading and learning. If I could, I would quit working and go back to study Psychology or Japanese, or both!

I’m happily married, my wife is gentle, quiet, caring but not very expressive (INFP is my guess), but I’m always longing for more overt romanticism – I’ve a deep romanticism inside me. We have a lively, charming and gifted 10 yo girl (ExFP I think); I love playing and sharing ideas with her, she is so much fun! But I always end up telling her what to do when things get serious (homework, tiding up, etc.), discovering my bossy side, which surprises me because I hate telling people what to do, I never could at work and never will. With my daughter is more because I know she needs it, not for my ego. I want her to be able to focus on what she wants when she grows up.

I’ve been told that I have something like people mastery (“don de gentes” in Spanish) because I can tune my communication style depending to who I deal with, so that it always goes smoothly. I’m always saying something nice and funny to have a warm and harmonious atmosphere with everybody – my students love it. The dark side of this is that, although I can fit well in many human environments, I don’t know who I am anymore. My best friend (male INTP, not into MBTI or psycology) once said: “You fit so many opposing clichés”…

I don’t want to sound self-boasting, it’s just that I want to be as sincere as possible, so no false modesty. About my flaws and quirks, mundane staff bores me, and sometimes I’m absent-minded, lost in “my things” as I call them: the future, the quest for meaning, MBTI… I have good self-control, for example it was easy for me to follow an intermittent fasting routine, although sometimes I lash at myself when I make stupid mistakes, even insulting myself out loud. I was clumsy as a child, and nerdy in my early teens – somewhat fat, thick glasses, embarrassed – and it took me a lot of effort to overcome it. I felt I was trapped.

I have a good relationship with my ISFJ mother and ISTP father, although I never really connected to them – I was very rebellious, although a good student. I ended up being the good son for their sake (I’m a lonely child). But they are very materialistic and short-sighted, I’m all into possibilities and abstract ideas. It’s like we speak two different languages. I wish it could be different.


TL; DR
In every test I took my N was to the roof. But the rest…

Most likely type candidates (in the order I got them through time, not of likelihood) and my take on them (I’ll keep it short and to the point, I promise!)

INTJ
Fits: insightful, great at learning, focused, hard on himself, abstract
My differences: sensible, tactful, romantic, not workaholic

INFJ: insightful, clever, ambivert, chameleonic, intense
My differences: not super generous, can be selfish, rational

ENTP: debater, ambivert, curious, quick witted, independent
My differences: not scattered, good follow through, not pushing buttons, respectful

INTP: “braniac”, thirst for knowledge, independent
My differences: more energy, not clear-cut introvert, sensible

ENTJ, ENFJ:
My differences: never bossy or controlling when young, not a bit

What do you think? Thanks for reading. It was difficult for me to post this, so personal. I appreciate any comments.

Caveat: I’m not completely sold on cognitive functions and I’m very skeptical, so you’ll have a hard time convincing me…

 

[noname3788]

Obviously, you need to study the cognitive functions. Let me link some youtube videos who do an excellent job at explaining how trickster 6th slot Fi affects your typing attempts... just kidding.

To be honest, it reminds me of my own self-typing attempts. It's basically INxx (and sometimes I even type ENxx in tests), and the last two preferences are just exactly in the middle. And I'm also not convinced at all about the cognitive functions. It makes sense in a way that it can explain how preferences manifest in each type, but it doesn't seem to be solid when applied to actual individuals. Also, empiric evidence for type dynamics is basically not existent. Read more about this in the wiki section of this site, if you haven't already, reckful has made a great summary about this topic.

That said, I won't give you a type recommendation. You show some attributes of all the types you mentioned, and this isn't a bad thing at all, it just shows that you're a well-balanced person. It just sucks when trying to type yourself. However I guess there is a reason why you want to type yourself, and I advice to dig deeper into this. The average person won't google "personality" test without any thoughts. In my case, it was a mixture of loneliness, feelings of not belonging anywhere and confusion about my identity that lead me into this. That was like 1,5 years ago, and I still don't know my type. Instead I learned how to accept myself and I learned how to manage feelings of inadequacy, at least most of the time. So I'm now quite comfortable with not having a MBTI type, and there are some people on this forum as well who decided to not type themselves. However I'm 21 years younger than you are, so I'm somewhat hesistant to give you recommendations, and I also see that you're certainly capable of helping yourself.

Some type-unrelated things:

I came out first in a compulsory “aptitude test” out of 4000+ first-year engineering students (the test was basically pattern recognition and logic, pretty much like an IQ test).

We have a lively, charming and gifted 10 yo girl (ExFP I think)

I guess it's safe to assume that you're gifted as well, and it explains why you didn't need to study as much as your peers, and also why you worry about "boasting". I guess seeing multiple perspectives of an issue comes naturally to you, and type theory is all about pinning down a preference for one perspective over the other.

I had a hard time picking my major: I ended up graduating in telecom engineering studying less than my peers and with straight-A grades (I’m Italian and in the Italian systems grades are very important), but I considered majoring English or some other foreign language (one of my passions), or maybe psychology. The thing is, engineering was the best University in my city, with the best work potential; the others were lousy Unis with little-to-none job perspectives. And my parents could not afford my studying in some other city.

I actually studied engineering as well (electrical engineering, to be precise), but I didn't finish. It wasn't too difficult, but deep inside me I never actually wanted to work in this profession, and so my motivation to actually learn for exams and to finish my degree quickly went down. The thought process behind choosing the major was quite similar: Something affordable, good career options and job perspectives, especially since I had some well-known companies in my local region where I could work. I just happened what's important to myself, the non-rational side of myself.

I don't think my answer post has any structure at all, so I hope my thoughts on this were at least somewhat helpful. Just another random thought: Another personality theory named "positive disintegration" may be helpful. It's a somewhat different approach, instead of seeing personality as static, the basic premise here is that it changes, most likely due to negative events in life which deconstruct a current sense of self and help to rebuild it from scratch, to an updated version. However, it varies from person to person, and some don't even gain positive effects from this. I found it to be more helpful than MBTI, however for the majority of people MBTI is easier and more precise. I just have a feeling that you may benefit from reading into it, if you haven't already.

 

[mancino]

Thank you very much, [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] , for your deep answer, your time and energy that you gave to my concerns, your sensibility – and no functions involved! It was very helpful, both for your intuition and the warmth that I could sense between the lines.

Yeah, my I is more than likely, maybe mild-ish. So I am in “INxx territory”, as reckful used to call it. He is the one to blame for my skepticism towards functions in the first place!

You asked a very meaningful question, why I want to type myself. Maybe I long for validation, I don’t know. But I have been thinking about it lately, and your question expands on my inner doubts.

It’s kind of funny to read that we share the same experience with technical stuff – easy, but not meaningful. Perhaps I could stomach it more that you could – a J thing? I know how to be dutiful, when it is something important.

I’ve checked the Wikipedia page on positive disintegration. I could relate to most of it. The emphasis on verticality made me think of transcendence, spirituality and enlightenment. The quote from Joseph Campbell thrilled me:

If a path exists in the forest, don't follow it, for though it took someone else to the Grail, it will not take you there, because it is not your path

I follow the Hero’s Journey paradigm in my novels, and Campbell “The Hero with a Thousand Faces” is a book that changed my path a as writer.

The quote also reminded me of the Zen koan:

If you meet the Buddha on the Road, kill him

It feels like maybe other disciplines can give typology a complementary perspective.

This is all Enneagram type 4, I guess. I don't believe much of it, but in that system I always got 5w4. It make very much sense.

So, maybe I will end up following your advice and accepting living in the Limbo of the un-typed!

 

[Vendrah]

Seems to be a very hard case...

Few points...

E/I - Do you know or are you sure that you have significant more IQ than other people? Like, would you make through a Mensa or something like that society if you wanted to?
High intelligence leads to more introversion. That is visible through studies, where intelligent people tends to get more isolated and get a harder time socializing. There is a popular phrase saying that, the more intelligent, more introverted. Actually, the MBTI study I read about it was interesting that it was accurate that the highers level of extraversion happens with people close to average IQ - If was way more intelligent or way less intelligent, it tends to be more introversion (that article is lost somewhere on Google Scholar, you can try to google scholar MBTI and IQ).
If it is the case, its very likely that you are, or better were, an Extrovert with a hard time with the enviroment. What appear to happened is that, when you get older, you started to get into enviroments that are more intelligent. Perhaps you started into a regular school as a kid, and then to perhaps a more special class as a teenager, and then got into a prestige Uni. In every enviroment the average IQ with people behind you increased, and the difference between your IQ and enviroment IQ decreased, which ended up making socializing easier and more "feasible".

Sorry to repeat but perhaps I wasnt clear enough, for me you are an E that seems to have significant higher IQ (or at least I assumed you do have), and since the difference between your IQ and enviroment was high, your levels of extraversion decreased; And then, while you were growing up, the difference between your IQ and enviroment decreased, making your levels of extraversion increasing.

Now, the hard part is really the T/F and J/P one... really...
I dont have much idea but there is the enneagram.
Your case is already a little bit odd, so I have my doubts if applying this is appropriate, but, there is this table:

More about it here:
https://www.typologycentral.com/for...ories-stats-studies-possibly.html#post3187929

The quantity of ENs on 5w4 is almost zero.. That kind of killl my analysis but... But if you take 4w5, it leads to ENFP or ENFJ, with ENFP being more likely. ENFPs score one more point for being more likely if you are a "super-talented" at school while being a teen.. Because among people considered highly talented, ENFP is the most common type (but in terms of overrepresentation, its INTP).

I cant get really conclusive about T/F or J/P, but I have a question:
- Do you usually get them borderline, aka between 45-55%, or do you tend to have high T in one week, then high F in other, etc...? I will wait for the answer to keep going because that really make a big difference.

Besides that, theres the funny concept of the super ENTP that you two keeps remembering me... Did you ever read about this one?
I cant find on the internet, but the idea is that the super ENTP is good at using all cognitive functions (yep, sorry for mentioning them), using them according to what is best. That has zero evidence but its a funny idea.

Also, still on cognitive functions...
Do you have 3 different test from different years or perhaps at different months?
If you had 3 different years, would help for my 3rd alternative typing. I could give it a try.

 

[mancino]

Thank you [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION], so much input on your part, I really appreciate your kindess.

Yes, I suspect I have high IQ. I never really bothered to have it checked, however I remember trying a preliminary test at Mensa website, and the result that came out said that I could "easily apply". I don't have any other evidence, but I've always being a super quick learner in disparate fields. You could say I'm multi-talented.

What you wrote about having a hard time fitting in an environment with low IQ is it something that I relate to, but I've always thought it was on my part to strive to be “more like them”, if you know what I mean.

What doesn't fit is that, during my years studying engineering, I didn't fit in either! As I said, I tried to spend with my peers the least possible amount of time. My relationships improved dramatically during my two years abroad.

The people that I love spending my time with now are those willing to discuss interesting, deep topics, in any field. Gentle, easy-going, non-materialistics, into arts, literature etc. Sensible, bright souls I would say.

Regarding the enneagram, if you could point me to a reliable test, I will get back to you with the results.

The thing is, I don't trust self-reporting test any longer. I really don't know to interpret some questions anymore.

For example, I know that the test at humanmetrics is well respected. I took it many times (no saved results though) but there are many questions I have a hard time interpreting. For example, T-F stuff:

10. When making a decision, you rely more on your feelings than on analysis of the situation

15. You trust reason rather than feelings

30. You value justice higher than mercy

My answer to all of these is that… it depends! I know that I should look for a pattern the thing is that I don't see any.
My decision making process is a logical and sensible one which also takes into account personal considerations and human concerns. On trivial matters, I go with the objective best option oftentimes but for big life-changing decisions I never weighted pros and cons. Going abroad, changing career, falling in love, getting married, having a child, all of those I chose because they felt right. Deciding on them after a cold analysis seems inhuman to me. I don't know if that's an F thing or an N thing, like having a vision or something.

As I said earlier, I don't quite believe in cognitive functions; however, I dug into them before coming to that conclusion. In that system, my auto-diagnosis would be:
I relate very strongly with Ni and Ne (can’t tell which one more);
I have strong Ti; I always wanting to know the why of everything;
My Te is strong also, but I have a love-hate relationship with it: a tool that I use when I have to, like being lazy and procrastinating stuff that I don’t like (mundane, routine, etc.) and then rushing things to get them done and out of the way.
My Fe and Fi are less stable; It depends on the definition you use; I relate to strongly wanting to be true to my “real self” (whatever that is) but also being very respectful and considerate of other people’s needs.
Si, I don't know, good remembering abstract data, not so much with misplacing personal objets in the house...
Se, I'm sometimes lost in my thoughts and oblivious of the environment, but I have acute smell and hearing senses, and good body awareness (balance, martial arts, etc.)


I have some saved tests in various systems, here they are. I hope they can shed some light. A big caveat: during many years, I thought “men are T”, I was good at numbers, I don’t wear my heart on my sleeve… Long story short, I never doubted my T back then. Later, I discovered that a substantial share of men are F (25-40% I read somewhere), so I re-framed it; I started comparing my judgment with other men’s, and now I’m much inclined to see me in the “sensible” male minority. So, I went back to the MBTI official source:

https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/thinking-or-feeling.htm?bhcp=1

That changed my whole perspective on the matter. I looked back at my big life-changing decisions, and I was always following some sort of gut feeling/urge, not my logic. Since then, I understand T/F questions in a completely different way.

Function test, don’t have the source, 2018

Ni 15,45
Ne 14,9
Ti 11,3
Te 8,95
Si 8,5
Fe 4,75
Fi 4,25
Se 3,65

Best fit type: INTJ; or ENTP; or ENFP.


Cognitive functions, similarminds, 2018

Te 65%
Ti 90%
Ne 95%
Ni 65%
Se 20%
Si 30%
Fe 60%
Fi 75%

Best fit type: ENTP


Dicothomy tests, 16 personalities: they actually keep a log!

(ENTJ-A) 54% Extraverted 96% Intuitive 72% Thinking 73% Judging 59% Assertive Sep 3, 2016
(ENTP-A) 77% Extraverted 89% Intuitive 68% Thinking 56% Prospecting 83% Assertive Sep 4, 2016
(INTJ-A) 67% Introverted 91% Intuitive 65% Thinking 83% Judging 79% Assertive Apr 30, 2019
(ENTP-A) 68% Extraverted 92% Intuitive 56% Thinking 57% Prospecting 94% Assertive Jun 3, 2019
(INTJ-A) 54% Introverted 87% Intuitive 54% Thinking 69% Judging 82% Assertive Jul 25, 2019
(ENTP-A) 57% Extraverted 88% Intuitive 56% Thinking 53% Prospecting 81% Assertive Sep 1, 2019
(INFJ-A) 65% Extraverted 95% Intuitive 72% Thinking 68% Judging 83% Assertive Nov 29, 2019

Big 5 with 9 facets (global trait at the end), similarminds, this week:

Gregariousness |||||||||||||||||| 58%
Sociability |||||||||||||||||| 54%
Assertiveness ||||||||||||||||||||| 70%
Poise ||||||||||||||||||||| 66%
Leadership |||||||||||||||||||||||| 74%
Provocativeness ||||||||||||||| 50%
Self-Disclosure ||||||||| 26%
Talkativeness ||||||||||||||||||||| 62%
Group Attachment ||||||||||||||| 46%
Extroversion |||||||||||||||||| 56%

Understanding |||||||||||||||||||||||| 78%
Warmth ||||||||||||||||||||| 70%
Morality ||||||||||||||||||||| 70%
Pleasantness ||||||||||||||||||||| 66%
Empathy |||||||||||||||||||||||| 74%
Cooperation |||||||||||||||||||||||| 78%
Sympathy ||||||||||||||||||||| 70%
Tenderness ||||||||||||||| 46%
Nurturance |||||||||||||||||| 54%
Accommodation ||||||||||||||||||||| 67%
Conscientiousness |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 82%

Efficiency |||||||||||||||||||||||| 78%
Dutifulness |||||||||||||||||||||||| 78%
Purposefulness |||||||||||||||||||||||| 74%
Organization |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Cautiousness ||||||||||||||||||||| 66%
Rationality |||||||||||||||||||||||| 74%
Perfectionism ||||||||||||||||||||| 70%
Planning |||||||||||||||||| 54%
Orderliness |||||||||||||||||||||||| 74%

Stability |||||||||||||||||||||||| 78%
Happiness |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 82%
Calmness ||||||||||||||||||||| 62%
Moderation ||||||||||||||||||||| 66%
Toughness |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 82%
Impulse Control |||||||||||||||||| 58%
Imperturbability |||||||||||||||||||||||| 74%
Cool-headedness |||||||||||||||||| 58%
Tranquility |||||||||||||||||| 54%
Emotional Stability ||||||||||||||||||||| 68%

Intellect |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Ingenuity |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Reflection |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 86%
Competence |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 82%
Quickness |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Introspection |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 86%
Creativity |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Imagination |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Depth |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Openmindedness |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 88%

My conclusion of all these data? Maybe I’m an INTJ with strong F, or an ETNP with strong J, or a INFJ with strong T… In brief, an oxymoron. ENFP I don't see... too strong Ti for that.

Any suggestion?

 

[noname3788]

So you already jumped down the rabbit hole

Since you asked for some tests: This one here uses questions from the actual paid MBTI assessment (but the scoring algorithm is different). It also breaks down each dichotomy into 5 smaller "facets". However, it's still a forced-choice questionaire and you may want to answer "both" or "neither" for a lot of the questions. Also quite long at 145 questions.

For enneagram, there's another 306 question monstrum on the same site.

I'm personally quite sceptical about enneagram, but it also seems to be quite helpful for a lot of people, and combining it with MBTI is a popular way to add some more nuances to the type. For me, enneagram showed the same problems as MBTI, as enneatype wasn't static but fluctuated a lot. I hope I don't discourage you to try it at least... And to be honest, even if I tried to type you, I actually have no idea at all what your type could be. Too many traces in various directions without a clear pattern (except for N preference).

As a sidenote, I can relate a lot to your struggles with fitting in. There was always something that made me feel like I'm not like other people, that I don't fully belong where I am, that I haven't found my tribe yet. And it still persists up to the present day, and the worst part of it is that I can't explain it at all. People are usually friendly to me (at least for the last 2 years), I have some friends and acquaintances... and often I still decide to hang out alone with my thoughts. And the ironic part: Typologies like MBTI and Enneagram promise to resolve some issues by embracing and explaining differences between human beings, yet again I don't fit in here. Just let me say that there are people out there who may feel similar, even though it probably aren't that many. Sometimes I think that there isn't a shortcut towards truly knowing yourself, and that it may be neccessary to go through all kind of weird shit to arrive at something that was always known to you, just not valued.

 

[Vendrah]

English is not my first language either, this post is long and I started writing it yesterday and partially in a hurry to finish and I couldnt finished so i didnt googled some words that I have doubts about how to write them.. (I didnt conclude my english course)
[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] Yes, I wish to keep the conversation because this post wont be conclusive yet.. Started writing it yesterday and got it done on the morning... This is cool.

I dont know much about enneagram, but as [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] (that is indeed the closest one to your "situation" from several profiles Ive seen here) most of the community, me included, use the enneagram to create a sub-variation of their type, and in my case, there are days that Im more like a 7w6, but I am mostly 9w1 and that 9w1 could change. I dont have any reliable enneagram test, I took mine considering suggestions for 1w9 in type me topic and various enneagram test of the internet (that mostly gave me 9 or 9w1, but 4w5 or 5w4 already happened to me). And I have a little bit of 5 traits.

And I am an engineer also (but never worked on the field). I was isolated either, never knew why I got so much anti-social on the Uni. Actually, I found out last year a reasonable explanation. After some good time on MBTI, I realized which types I relate and have more easy-engaging and which type I have less "compatibility" and thats not for marriage (like what is mostly discussed) but rather friendship. Then I started to search MBTI profiles for engineering students or engineers (never found the latter) and found out that the most types I thought better clicked with me were absent whereas the type I most have a dislike were fairly present (I found something right on my country). And that the few types that were compatible and not rare were introverted and for that moment I stopped 5 minutes to think and found out that was the explanation of why there was some guys which clicked with me but never wanted me (and with the exception of one they never wanted anybody else to be around, they appreciatte being alone). They were mostly INTPs, I think, and so I found out that INTPs on the internet are reasonbly accessible but in real life they naturally push everyone away.

I think that could be your case either, even if you end up xNxx at the end of the journey.
"The people that I love spending my time with now are those willing to discuss interesting, deep topics, in any field. Gentle, easy-going, non-materialistics, into arts, literature etc. Sensible, bright souls I would say."
At least in my engineering graduation, most students were not at all like that. This could explain the introversion in engineering for you, it explained mine very good, since before I was into Uni I was getting slowly more extraverted and when I got to Uni except on the start I was getting less and less sociable as years passed through.

And I am middle T/F either. In most tests, Im 40-60% in F/T, the dispersion even dropped after I already accepted I am middle T/F. The reason I picked F and not put an X there are the cognitive functions. I am in most times more Fi biased then Te,Ti or Fe (Fe is usually my lowest but the why is a long story), except when i started MBTI... When i started MBTI I was pretty much apathetical, had a misfunctional J (getting J on tests while not having much Js traits), and in that times I Te was equal Fi. Thats how I came for F, being reinforced by people typing me agreeing with that (Fi was more distinct than Te,Ti and Fe). But I do have and embrace T thinking traits, and I also have a love-hate relationship with Te. Te sometimes is good, but sometimes Te is used in some stupid ways or there are hidden bad intentions besides its objective justifications that arent truly objective and rational on these cases. And as a note, Im logical when getting aside with people on humanities and an emo when compared to an engineer. I never thought about man and woman comparison, but thats the same... Emo when compared to most man and logician when compared to most woman. Thats partially related to my avatar... I really see myself as ENFP wing INTP, or, in last years since I got to Uni, INTP wing ENFP. See myself as two is a simplification, not that Im actually split or bipolar, but its a good simplification, and sometimes the situation says "act and think like an INTP" and I do it...

I dont know if I said that specific on this topic... Having a non-preference on one of the four MBTI dimensions is more the rule then exception based on what I gathered (these are dozens of cases). So, people on middle T/F is normal, as people in middle N/S, J/P are normal and perhaps people on middle E/I is even normal because E/I should be the most volatile of the dimensions. I do think you are middle T/F.

About your test results from big 5... I dont like similar minds (but that came from their cognitive function test). Their grouping of Big 5 is complete bizarre compared to most Big 5 test and Big 5 Wiki. Orderliness is a facet of conscioustiness, and morality, sympathy, etc... are facets of agreeableness not conscioustiness. Its pretty messy and I dont consider it much reliable.

The cognitive functions really dont help you much. I get it that its for your case, they arent of much useful. Your patterns seems to be the same... Ne=Ni>Te=Ti=Fi=Fe>Se>Si... or Si>Se whatever... So they dont help you much.

But the log you gave me... Hmmm...
I took a look and noticed that, the higher your E, the higher your P and the lower your J. Then I decided to correlate your P with your E and it gave me correlation of 0.8 (0 to 1). Thats quite high.
Question is, there are two different and contractictive ways to give this meaning..
First, we could consider that when you get E result the enviroment and the circumnstances are better for you, so your E correlating with P means that you are P, and the I days are days where the enviroment and the circumnstances are not doing much good to you and then you change to J to adapt.
Or, there is even some theory on Carl Jung, a little bit out from the cognitive functions, its the idea of persona. I only read it through Wikipedia and some random sources on the internet...
Persona (psychology) - Wikipedia
With the idea of persona, you should be a J instead, and P is your mask you use while socializing.
These concepts clash with each other.. However, the idea that E/I is somewhat dependable is present in articles on Google Scholar while the idea of Persona remains as a concept only. Actually, its weird but I think that its possible to merge them doing an assumption.
If you truly are I, then when you have E moments, it means that you are socializing by needs, and that you would get to your persona because persona is quite needed.
If you truly are E, then when you have I moments, it means that the enviroment is pushing you away, and in order to adapt to enviroment you get to your persona.
Im still more inclined to see you as E, so perhaps you truly are P that has a "transcendent" adaptation and become J when the enviroment does call the need to be J. And you are so used to do that that you almost lost your identity. You say that you try to stay true to yourself besides what that is... But perhaps your unconscious disagrees (or, okay, you are too "dynamic") and since Ni levels is the best unconcious influence measure I know, you are quite under your unconcious influences and perhaps your unconcious does the change and adaptation for you... That doesnt mean that you should fight your unconcious like Carl Jung sometimes suggests.

And I have a few observations...

Si enters in the memory proccess, ok, but it isnt alone in most of cases. Remembering concepts is related to Ti. Remembering abstract stuff goes with Ne, Ti if the abstract ideas are concepts. When you remember data it can be Ne, since the interpretation of data is Ne. Ne can be used to access the past, as long as this past isnt a past that you actually live, but a past that was beyond all your senses (data registry can be seen as experiences stored in numbers, and when these experiences arent yours, it isnt Si, but actually Ne... For example, when I say "2 people were murdered yesterday", you try to imagine the murders as best as you can, but you didnt actually lived any murdered unless you are one of the two people that were murdered... The murder is Si for people who experienced it, either as killer or killed, and other cognitive functions for everybody else. For those who "picture" the murder in their heads, imagine it, its Ne).

And about that ENTP vs ENTJ comparison... Im not quite sure if being ENTP is really a guarantee to not be power hungry, or if ENTPs are less power hungry than all other types, or if ENTP is really less power-hungry then ENTJ (ok, this latter Im more lead to believe and I have reasons for that). There is a lot of strange things in that comparison, really.

 

[mancino]

Yes, [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] , I jumped... I hope there's water down there.

First of all, thanks [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] for your long reply, so much food for thought. I had this post almost ready before I saw your last one, so I'm only adressing part of it, there rest I'm still digesting. (and don't worry about the language, btw, which is your mother tongue? maybe... french?)

[MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] , thank you for the links, the MBTI was the best test I took ever, now I understand why many people recommend to take the official one. A lot of questions made me think, you could tell that they put a lot of effort and fine tuning to have the right wording so as to catch all the nuances.

These are my results:

your myers-briggs type ENTP
your form m myers-briggs type ENTP

e n f p
22 35 18 18
15 0 21 16
i s t j

concrete 0 9 abstract
realistic 0 9 imaginative
practical 0 4 conceptual
experiential 0 3 theoretical
traditional 0 10 original
initiating 2 1 receiving
expressive 6 4 contained
gregarious 3 3 intimate
active 1 5 reflective
enthusiastic 10 3 quiet
logical 4 2 empathetic
reasonable 5 3 compassionate
questioning 2 2 accommodating
critical 2 5 accepting
tough 6 6 tender
systematic 5 3 casual
planful 2 6 open-ended
early starting 1 4 pressure-prompted
scheduled 5 5 spontaneous
methodical 2 1 emergent

I am very surprised but, this time, I am more convinced, at least about my P-ness. Many questions were actually in line with what I think about structure and planning: a means to an end, a useful tool but not the Bible; something that can be tweaked.

I believe that it is my N ruling it all: I see a possibility, I get excited about it (look how high my enthusiasm is, I fully relate to it), then I start envisioning infinite ways to make it happen; I go into J-mode with the best option T-wise, but at any time I tweak the J plan as new N options manifest themselves. This is the way I wrote all my books. I'm never fully committed to the plan, you see. And when structure is imposed on me from outside - especially with work and family schedule - I loathe it with all my heart. But many quizzes fail to grasp it, now I'm aware of that. For example, they ask you "I follow a schedule", which I do! But not one that I would follow if I could avoid it.

About E/I and T/F, i'm still unsure, but I can relate to the factes as they came out; I can be content (for the time being) saying that I'm an ET with some out-of-preference IF traits.

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , I am so glad you suggest that my E is related to my P, that is something I always felt myself; sometimes I had ENTJ in some tests, but never related; I can be forceful and very strong willed, but not in the outside world and against my F or my N - which is something that ENTJs can do, not just stereotypes, also the ones that I know IRL; I'm sure I am not like them.

Searching for the super ENTP that you mentioned, I've found this article:
ENTP ANSWERS — The Three ENTP Modes

It says that ENTP has three modes of operation:
Ne, wild idea generator, brainstorming and being wierd and funny (exhausting)
Ti, analysis
Fe, pleaser (draining)
I relate to this point of view, but I would add, in my case: Te-Si mode, eg not INTJ, but ISTJ instead! That is, a dutiful, steady, reliable worker, slave to Ne; a means to an end; efficient and thorough, and draining. Like a fire extinguisher: "break the glass only when necessary"

That would be the "persona" that you mention, another idea that I felt many times. I believe in the Free Traits Theory by Brian Little: you can act out of type if you need it for your core projects, it's just draining after a while. His book is very interesting, at least the first half, check it out - or at least his TED talks.

So, function-wise (here we go...), if I accecpt my P-ness, all the mistyping can be exlpained:
- I'm an E who was "repressed" by the environment, as you explained with plenty of true details - we two relate so much in our experiences!
- My N is undoubted, therefore that make me an Ne;
- Being so N makes me so abstract that the patterns that I see and my big picture views may sound so "out of nowere" that can be mistaken for Ni;
- Ne-Ti looking like Ni and forced I can look like INTJ, first mistype;
- As I am in my forties, I'm more focused on my Fe, also being a father changed me a lot.
- pseudo-Ni and Fe make INFJ, second mistype
I still don't believe in functions per se, but at least I see a way to frame it that way, which corroborate the diagnosis: ENTP!

Now, the Enneagram: that was a long one!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
8 1 6 9 44 -8 23 7 5
most likely enneagram type 5
(with wing) 5w4
possible instinctual variant stacking sx/sp/so

type 1 self-preservation -1 sexual 2 social -4
type 2 self-preservation -1 sexual 4 social -2
type 3 self-preservation -1 sexual -3 social -2
type 4 self-preservation -1 sexual 2 social 0
type 5 self-preservation 6 sexual 4 social 10
type 6 self-preservation 2 sexual 0 social -7
type 7 self-preservation 3 sexual 0 social 1
type 8 self-preservation 5 sexual -1 social 3
type 9 self-preservation -2 sexual 3 social 2

I don't know anything about variants. The questions were a bit weird sometimes, but for the most part I could identify with the answers I gave.
Knowing how I answered, I question my 5w4; I see how I could be a 7 as most ENTP are. There were questions regarding knowledge and the urge to know, but perhaps my motivation is different from a typical 5 . IIRC, 5s want to save energy and be prepared; in my case, learning is fun! So I never related to the thrill-seeking typical 7 profile, but if I frame learning as exploration, discovery, and if you interpret fun as "exploring ideas"... that could be me. Maybe even with a weak 8 wing when I'm fully engaged in pursuing my idea.

Maybe we could see in in a differnt angle: if I was to improve MBTI, I would change the 16 boxes paradigm; many people have a hard type choosing one because they have at least one 50-50-ish preference.
However, it would work smoothy if you had just 8 types: one for each pole, N, S, T, F, J, P, E, I.
Your type would be your strongest preference, period.
That for sure does not change in your whole life.
Then you could add wings, one for each of the 6 remaining poles; you could have no wing, or up to three.
In my case, I would be a pure N, or maybe an N with a mild E wing, or a P wing, or a T or F wing, or all three, probably also depending on my personal growth.
Another ENTP in the current system could be a P with a strong E wing (and too weak N and T preferences to have a wing there), and we would be very, very different, not boxed as "ENTP" as it is now.

I've seen somebody suggesting that you could alter the order of the letters to take strenght of preference into account, but saying that i'm a NPET vs PETN, for example, multiplies types and invalidates the system. With my "new MBTI", it would be simpler than now!

A closing remark to this long post. It's long because I felt compelled to share my views with all my passion, as you have done with yours, both of you, and with generosity.

I end with this article I found, about being a polymath.
You, the Polymath

I didn't know the word, but I fully recognize myself in the Pareto rule applied to learning, and I've been called a "Renaissance man" before (not boasting, you know, it just happened). I even go around quoting the same passage from Heinlein! You could say it is my motto:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." ― Robert A. Heinlein

 

[mancino]

Yes, I jumped... I hope there's water down there.

First of all, thank you [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] for the links, the MBTI test was the best test I took ever, now I understand why many people recommend to take the official test. Many questions made me think, you could tell that they put a lot of effort and fine tuning to have the right wording so as to catch all the nuances.

These are my results:

your myers-briggs type ENTP
your form m myers-briggs type ENTP

e n f p
22 35 18 18
15 0 21 16
i s t j

concrete 0 9 abstract
realistic 0 9 imaginative
practical 0 4 conceptual
experiential 0 3 theoretical
traditional 0 10 original
initiating 2 1 receiving
expressive 6 4 contained
gregarious 3 3 intimate
active 1 5 reflective
enthusiastic 10 3 quiet
logical 4 2 empathetic
reasonable 5 3 compassionate
questioning 2 2 accommodating
critical 2 5 accepting
tough 6 6 tender
systematic 5 3 casual
planful 2 6 open-ended
early starting 1 4 pressure-prompted
scheduled 5 5 spontaneous
methodical 2 1 emergent

I am very surprised but, this time, I am more convinced, at least about my P-ness. Many questions were actually in the line of what I think about structure and planning: a means to an end, a useful tool but not the Bible; something that can be tweaked. I believe that is my N ruling it all: I see a possibility, I get excited about it (look how high my enthusiasm is, I fully relate to it), then I start envisioning infinite ways to make it happen; I go into J-mode with the best option T-wise, but at any time I tweak the plan as new options manifest themselves. This is the way I wrote all my books. I'm never fully committed to the plan, you see. And when structure is imposed on me from outside - especially with work and family schedule - I loathe it with all my heart. But many quizzes fail to grasp it, now I'm aware of that. For example, they ask you "I follow a schedule", which I do! But not one that I would follow if I could avoid it.

About E/I and T/F, i'm still unsure, but I can relate to the factes as they came out; I can be content saying that I'm an ET with some out-of-preference IF traits.

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , I am so glad you suggest that my E is related to my P, that is something I always felt myself; sometimes I had ENTJ in some tests, but never related; I can be forceful and very strong willed, but not against my F or my N - which is something that ENTJ can do, not just stereotypes, also the ones that I know IRL; I'm sure I am not like them.

Searching for the super ENTP that you mentioned, I've found this article:
ENTP ANSWERS — The Three ENTP Modes
It says that ENTP has three modes of operation:
Ne, wild idea generator, brainstorming and being weird and funny (exhausting)
Ti, analysis
Fe, pleaser (draining)
I relate to this point of view, but I would add, in my case: Si-Ti/Te mode, eg not INTJ, but ISTJ instead! That is, a dutiful, steady, reliable worker, slave to Ne; a means to an end; efficient and thorough, but draining. Like a fire extinguisher "break the glass only when necessary".

That would be the "persona" that you mention, another idea that I felt many times. That is a concept I’m still digesting, but the disintegration/integration process is something I experienced myself many times in my life. Anyway, I believe in the Free Traits Theory by Brian Little: you can act out of type if you need it for your core projects, it's just draining after a while. His book is very interesting, at least the first half, checked it out - or at least his TED talks.

So, function-wise (oh my, here we go…), if I accecpt my P-ness, all the mistyping can be explained:
- I'm an E who was "repressed" by the environment, as you explained with plenty of true details - we two relate so much in our experiences!
- My N is undoubted, therefore that make me an Ne
- Being so N makes me so abstract that the patterns that I see and my big picture point of views sound so "out of nowhere" that can be mistaken for Ni
- Ne+Ti looking like Ni and forced I lead to INTJ, first mistype
- As I am in my forties, I'm more concerned with Fe, also being a father changed me a lot.
- pseudo-Ni and Fe make INFJ, second mistype
I still don't believe in function per se, but at least I see a way to frame it that way.

Now, the Enneagram: that was a long one!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
8 1 6 9 44 -8 23 7 5
most likely enneagram type 5
(with wing) 5w4
possible instinctual variant stacking sx/sp/so

type 1 self-preservation -1 sexual 2 social -4
type 2 self-preservation -1 sexual 4 social -2
type 3 self-preservation -1 sexual -3 social -2
type 4 self-preservation -1 sexual 2 social 0
type 5 self-preservation 6 sexual 4 social 10
type 6 self-preservation 2 sexual 0 social -7
type 7 self-preservation 3 sexual 0 social 1
type 8 self-preservation 5 sexual -1 social 3
type 9 self-preservation -2 sexual 3 social 2

I don't know anything about variants. The questions were a bit weird sometimes, but for the most part I could identify with the answer I gave.
Knowing how I answered, I see how I could be a 7 as most ENTP are. There were questions regarding knowledge and the urge to know, but perhaps my motivation is different from a typical 5. IIRC, 5s want to save energy and be prepared; in my case, learning is fun! So I never related to the thrill-seeking typical 7 profile, but if I frame it as fun-seeker, and you interpret fun as "exploring ideas" that could be me. Maybe even with a weak 8 wing when I'm fully engaged in pursuing my idea.

You could see in in a different angle: if I was to improve MBTI, I would change the 16 boxes; many people have a hard type choosing one because they have at least one 50-50-ish preference.
However, it would work smoothly if you had just 8 types: one for each pole, N, S, T, F, J, P, E, I.
Your type would be your strongest preference, period.
Then you could add wings, one for each of the 6 remaining poles; you could have no wing, or up to tree.
Me, I would be a pure N, or maybe an N with a mild E wing, or a P wing, or a T wing, or all three.
Another current ENTP would be a P with a strong E wing (and too weak N and T preferences to have a wing), and we would be very, very different.

I've seen somebody suggesting that you could alter the order of the letters to take strength of preference into account, but saying that I'm a NPET vs PETN, for example, multiply types and invalidates the system. With my "new MBTI", it would be simpler than now.

A closing remark to this long post. It's long because I felt compelled to share my views with all my passion, as you have done with your, and with generosity. [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , There were so many ideas in your last post that I still need to digest some, I’ll come back to you when I have some insight about those.

I end with this link I found about being a polymath.
You, the Polymath

I didn't know the word, but I fully recognize myself in the Pareto rule applied to learning, and I've been called a "Renaissance man" before (not boasting, you, know, it just happened). I even go around quoting the same passage from Heinlein!

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." ― Robert A. Heinlein

 

[mancino]

(I'm having trouble posting this, I'll try splitting it)

Yes, I jumped... I hope there's water down there.

First of all, thank you [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] for the links, the MBTI test was the best test I took ever, now I understand why many people recommend to take the official test. Many questions made me think, you could tell that they put a lot of effort and fine tuning to have the right wording so as to catch all the nuances.

These are my results:

your myers-briggs type ENTP
your form m myers-briggs type ENTP

e n f p
22 35 18 18
15 0 21 16
i s t j

concrete 0 9 abstract
realistic 0 9 imaginative
practical 0 4 conceptual
experiential 0 3 theoretical
traditional 0 10 original
initiating 2 1 receiving
expressive 6 4 contained
gregarious 3 3 intimate
active 1 5 reflective
enthusiastic 10 3 quiet
logical 4 2 empathetic
reasonable 5 3 compassionate
questioning 2 2 accommodating
critical 2 5 accepting
tough 6 6 tender
systematic 5 3 casual
planful 2 6 open-ended
early starting 1 4 pressure-prompted
scheduled 5 5 spontaneous
methodical 2 1 emergent

I am very surprised but, this time, I am more convinced, at least about my P-ness. Many questions were actually in the line of what I think about structure and planning: a means to an end, a useful tool but not the Bible; something that can be tweaked. I believe that is my N ruling it all: I see a possibility, I get excited about it (look how high my enthusiasm is, I fully relate to it), then I start envisioning infinite ways to make it happen; I go into J-mode with the best option T-wise, but at any time I tweak the plan as new options manifest themselves. This is the way I wrote all my books. I'm never fully committed to the plan, you see. And when structure is imposed on me from outside - especially with work and family schedule - I loathe it with all my heart. But many quizzes fail to grasp it, now I'm aware of that. For example, they ask you "I follow a schedule", which I do! But not one that I would follow if I could avoid it.

About E/I and T/F, i'm still unsure, but I can relate to the factes as they came out; I can be content saying that I'm an ET with some out-of-preference IF traits.

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , I am so glad you suggest that my E is related to my P, that is something I always felt myself; sometimes I had ENTJ in some tests, but never related; I can be forceful and very strong willed, but not against my F or my N - which is something that ENTJ can do, not just stereotypes, also the ones that I know IRL; I'm sure I am not like them.

Searching for the super ENTP that you mentioned, I've found this article:
ENTP ANSWERS — The Three ENTP Modes
It says that ENTP has three modes of operation:
Ne, wild idea generator, brainstorming and being weird and funny (exhausting)
Ti, analysis
Fe, pleaser (draining)
I relate to this point of view, but I would add, in my case: Si-Ti/Te mode, eg not INTJ, but ISTJ instead! That is, a dutiful, steady, reliable worker, slave to Ne; a means to an end; efficient and thorough, but draining. Like a fire extinguisher "break the glass only when necessary".

That would be the "persona" that you mention, another idea that I felt many times. That is a concept I’m still digesting, but the disintegration/integration process is something I experienced myself many times in my life. Anyway, I believe in the Free Traits Theory by Brian Little: you can act out of type if you need it for your core projects, it's just draining after a while. His book is very interesting, at least the first half, checked it out - or at least his TED talks.

So, function-wise (oh my, here we go…), if I accecpt my P-ness, all the mistyping can be explained:
- I'm an E who was "repressed" by the environment, as you explained with plenty of true details - we two relate so much in our experiences!
- My N is undoubted, therefore that make me an Ne
- Being so N makes me so abstract that the patterns that I see and my big picture point of views sound so "out of nowhere" that can be mistaken for Ni
- Ne+Ti looking like Ni and forced I lead to INTJ, first mistype
- As I am in my forties, I'm more concerned with Fe, also being a father changed me a lot.
- pseudo-Ni and Fe make INFJ, second mistype
I still don't believe in function per se, but at least I see a way to frame it that way.

 

[mancino]

[sorry if I reply late, but my post were never published, and I tried several times]

Yes, I jumped... I hope there's water down there.

First of all, thank you [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] for the links, the MBTI test was the best test I took ever, now I understand why many people recommend to take the official test. Many questions made me think, you could tell that they put a lot of effort and fine tuning to have the right wording so as to catch all the nuances.

These are my results:

your myers-briggs type ENTP
your form m myers-briggs type ENTP

e n f p
22 35 18 18
15 0 21 16
i s t j

concrete 0 9 abstract
realistic 0 9 imaginative
practical 0 4 conceptual
experiential 0 3 theoretical
traditional 0 10 original
initiating 2 1 receiving
expressive 6 4 contained
gregarious 3 3 intimate
active 1 5 reflective
enthusiastic 10 3 quiet
logical 4 2 empathetic
reasonable 5 3 compassionate
questioning 2 2 accommodating
critical 2 5 accepting
tough 6 6 tender
systematic 5 3 casual
planful 2 6 open-ended
early starting 1 4 pressure-prompted
scheduled 5 5 spontaneous
methodical 2 1 emergent

I am very surprised but, this time, I am more convinced, at least about my P-ness. Many questions were actually in the line of what I think about structure and planning: a means to an end, a useful tool but not the Bible; something that can be tweaked. I believe that is my N ruling it all: I see a possibility, I get excited about it (look how high my enthusiasm is, I fully relate to it), then I start envisioning infinite ways to make it happen; I go into J-mode with the best option T-wise, but at any time I tweak the plan as new options manifest themselves. This is the way I wrote all my books. I'm never fully committed to the plan, you see. And when structure is imposed on me from outside - especially with work and family schedule - I loathe it with all my heart. But many quizzes fail to grasp it, now I'm aware of that. For example, they ask you "I follow a schedule", which I do! But not one that I would follow if I could avoid it.

About E/I and T/F, I’m still unsure, but I can relate to the facets as they came out; I can be content saying that I'm an ET with some out-of-preference IF traits.

[continues...]

- - - Updated - - -

[part 2]
[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , I am so glad you suggest that my E is related to my P, that is something I always felt myself; sometimes I had ENTJ in some tests, but never related; I can be forceful and very strong willed, but not against my F or my N - which is something that ENTJ can do, not just stereotypes, also the ones that I know IRL; I'm sure I am not like them.

Searching for the super ENTP that you mentioned, I've found and article about “The three ENTP modes”
It says that ENTP has three modes of operation:
Ne, wild idea generator, brainstorming and being weird and funny (exhausting)
Ti, analysit
Fe, pleaser (draining)
I relate to this point of view, but I would add, in my case: Si-Ti/Te mode, eg not INTJ, but ISTJ instead! That is, a dutiful, steady, reliable worker, slave to Ne; a means to an end; efficient and thorough, but draining. Like a fire extinguisher "break the glass only when necessary".

That would be the "persona" that you mention, another idea that I felt many times. That is a concept I’m still digesting, but the disintegration/integration process is something I experienced myself many times in my life. Anyway, I believe in the Free Traits Theory by Brian Little: you can act out of type if you need it for your core projects, it's just draining after a while. His book is very interesting, at least the first half, checked it out - or at least his TED talks.

So, function-wise (oh my, here we go…), if I accecpt my P-ness, all the mistyping can be explained:
- I'm an E who was "repressed" by the environment, as you explained with plenty of true details - we two relate so much in our experiences!
- My N is undoubted, therefore that make me an Ne
- Being so N makes me so abstract that the patterns that I see and my big picture point of views sound so "out of nowhere" that can be mistaken for Ni
- Ne+Ti looking like Ni and forced I lead to INTJ, first mistype
- As I am in my forties, I'm more concerned with Fe, also being a father changed me a lot.
- pseudo-Ni and Fe make INFJ, second mistype
I still don't believe in function per se, but at least I see a way to frame it that way.

[continues...]

 

[mancino]

[part 3]

Now, the Enneagram: that was a long one!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
8 1 6 9 44 -8 23 7 5
most likely enneagram type 5
(with wing) 5w4
possible instinctual variant stacking sx/sp/so

type 1 self-preservation -1 sexual 2 social -4
type 2 self-preservation -1 sexual 4 social -2
type 3 self-preservation -1 sexual -3 social -2
type 4 self-preservation -1 sexual 2 social 0
type 5 self-preservation 6 sexual 4 social 10
type 6 self-preservation 2 sexual 0 social -7
type 7 self-preservation 3 sexual 0 social 1
type 8 self-preservation 5 sexual -1 social 3
type 9 self-preservation -2 sexual 3 social 2

I don't know anything about variants. The questions were a bit weird sometimes, but for the most part I could identify with the answer I gave.
Knowing how I answered, I see how I could be a 7 as most ENTP are. There were questions regarding knowledge and the urge to know, but perhaps my motivation is different from a typical 5. IIRC, 5s want to save energy and be prepared; in my case, learning is fun! So I never related to the thrill-seeking typical 7 profile, but if I frame it as fun-seeker, and you interpret fun as "exploring ideas" that could be me. Maybe even with a weak 8 wing when I'm fully engaged in pursuing my idea.

You could see in in a different angle: if I was to improve MBTI, I would change the 16 boxes; many people have a hard type choosing one because they have at least one 50-50-ish preference.
However, it would work smoothly if you had just 8 types: one for each pole, N, S, T, F, J, P, E, I.
Your type would be your strongest preference, period.
Then you could add wings, one for each of the 6 remaining poles; you could have no wing, or up to tree.
Me, I would be a pure N, or maybe an N with a mild E wing, or a P wing, or a T wing, or all three.
Another current ENTP would be a P with a strong E wing (and too weak N and T preferences to have a wing), and we would be very, very different.

I've seen somebody suggesting that you could alter the order of the letters to take strength of preference into account, but saying that I'm a NPET vs PETN, for example, multiply types and invalidates the system. With my "new MBTI", it would be simpler than now.

A closing remark to this long post. It's long because I felt compelled to share my views with all my passion, as you have done with your, and with generosity. [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , There were so many ideas in your last post that I still need to digest some, I’ll come back to you when I have some insight about those.

I end with this link I found about being a polymath. (at a site called juliankohtx, google it)

I didn't know the word, but I fully recognize myself in the Pareto rule applied to learning, and I've been called a "Renaissance man" before (not boasting, you, know, it just happened). I even go around quoting the same passage from Heinlein!

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." ― Robert A. Heinlein

 

[Vendrah]

[MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION] Yep there still a lot to be talked in here!

First thing in my head, your own system... Actually, your system is somewhat what Jung original system was. System and patterns, or the hidden math, is the same, you would just have different cognitive functions.

Jung has 8 cognitive-function-archetypes (he has other archetypes not related to cognitive functions, at least not directly).
These are the 8 pure types. There is a pure Ne dom, pure Se dom.. etc.. Basically, these types. In your case, the N-dom, the P-dom, the E-dom, etc... you would have a different arrengement but the pattern is the same.
Then, even he acknowledges that these types are unrealistic and introduces the reader to the auxiliary function. The auxiliary function call the characteristics of another pure type, and its the equivalent of a wing. Basically, an ENTP would be Ne wing Ti (pure Ne type wing Ti). And the big discussion is that Jung never actually counted how many types existed counting the auxiliary function and never minded explained them. Myers appears with 16, but, with alternative and more literal but wide interpretation, Jung had 64 types. And Jung didnt had a "dichotomy" either; Jung J/P was actually a 'status', not a dimension. Fe,Fi,Te,Ti are the judging functions for Jung, while Ne,Ni,Se,Si are the perception functions for Jung. However, because of pair effect, only pure types were judgers or perceveirs in Jung. Most people, realistically, werent really rational (rely only on judging functions) or irrational (rely only on perceveing functions). And for that, it is likely that Myers got a lot of borderlines in Jung J/P and had to swap definitions in order to people show up with preferences. So, J in Jung just means a higher use of Fe,Fi,Te,Ti, and a J Jung pure type is a Fe, Fi,Te,Ti dom only. This difference in J/P for Jung or J/P for Myers create some great confusions, like this one:

For comparison, we should analyze Brownsword's description for an INFP:

iF: The guiding force in the INFP personality comes from value judgments made internally. Throughout their lives, INFPs reflect on people and things and make, test, apply, and re-examine the powerful values that govern their behavior. Beneath a gentle and often easy-going exterior, they hold tenaciously to an inner core of values. INFPs will become rigid and unbending whenever these are violated. Intuition supports their introverted feeling and is subordinate to it. They feel most fulfilled when what they do contributes to a better world for all mankind. Inner values based on a sensitivity to intuitive possibilities causes most INFP to set very high standards for themselves, others and the world. When they judge themselves unworthy, they can withdraw from extraverted activities. Deeply depressed, they may become immobilized. When they have a positive sense of self, INFPs more often than not prefer to express their deeply-held commitments in quiet and unassuming ways. Taking active leadership positions takes a great deal of energy and a powerful dedication to a cause.

eN: When involved in extraverted activities, INFPs naturally and easily access their intuitive skills. Still focused on people, they are quick to find meaning, see possibilities, and discover unusual solutions. They are spontaneous and flexible. Unless their powerful inner values are involved, they seek to understand, not judge.

This is a very peculiar and specific profile, and I would be inclined to say that despite Brownsword stating that "they are spontaneous and flexible," his profile for an INFP would seem more inclined to be a judger. But more specifically, Brownsword seems to be implying that the person behind this INFP profile behaves like a judger when alone, but behaves more like a perceiver when "involved with extraverted activities." This person would likely see themselves as a perceiver, but the preference may not be strong—regardless, this should be unusual for an INFP profile.

Source: full context: the cognitive functions

Fi is a judging function, and a pure Fi-dom is a judger - in Jung (and pure Fi-dom are unrealistic). Since this INFP description is focused on Fi, the description will be Judging in Jung (but its P in Myers). However, in Myers, Fi was adapted to be a perceveing function. This generally a hell of confusion and its hard to explain the difference between Myers and Jung J/P without cognitive function and I prefer to let [MENTION=22236]OldFolksBoogie[/MENTION] old post explain it (clear explanation):

In Jung, it's rather simple: N & S are the irrational functions (also called perceiving functions), and F & T are the rational functions (also called judging functions).

In MBTI it's more complicated:

MBTI basically agrees with Jung that N&S = perceiving and F&T = judging. However in the MBTI-based personality types, the last letter of each type (P or J for perceiving or judging) is just a marker. The last letter is just a placeholder that simply designates your topmost extraverted function. In other words, that last letter simply designates how a certain type will deal with the external world. Or to put it another way, the last letter designates whether people are using a perceiving function (Ne&Se) or a judging function (Fe&Te) as their primary way of dealing with the objects and people in the external world around them.

Why does MBTI work that way? Because MBTI is all about how people deal with the external world. Remember that MBTI was developed in part as a career placement testing device--its most obvious commercial application, anyway. So it was important to designate how people extravert; in other words, it was important to designate whether people will use a perceiving function (Ne&Se) or a judging function (Fe&Te) when they are on the production line dealing with the objects and people in the external world around them.
(...)
Fi is always a rational/judging function. Because the F function (covering both Fe and Fi) is always a rational/judging function.

MBTI doesn't say that Fi is a perceiving function. Here is what MBTI says:

The top two functions for an INFP are Dom Fi (a judging function) and Aux Ne (a perceiving function). But when assigning a P or a J to a personality type, MBTI only cares about one question: What's your top extraverted function? Out of its two top functions, INFP uses its perceiving function (Ne) to deal with the world. As a result, MBTI considers INFP to be a perceiving personality type. The top extraverted function for INFPs is Ne, so INFPs get assigned a P.

In the meantime, MBTI doesn't say anything particular about Fi one way or the other. It's just taken for granted that Fi is a judging function. But Fi doesn't come into play when MBTI labels INFPs as perceiving types, because Fi is hidden away from the world. As far as labeling types P or J, MBTI is only concerned about what your top extraverted function is. Because MBTI only cares what function you use in the outside world. (I already explained the reasons why MBTI chooses to designate type this way in my previous post on the subject.)
(...)
Ambivalence on the J/P scale doesn't arise from the functions themselves. Instead, ambivalence arises because every adult has one perceiving function and also one judging function in his top two functions (the Dom and Aux functions).

Think about it. As an INFP, I have a judging function (Fi) working together with a perceiving function (Ne) in my Dom and Aux functions. As a result:

Sometimes I'm operating in Judging mode, mainly with internal things that I think about, via use of my Fi.
At other times I'm operating in Perceiving mode, mainly with external things that I deal with in the world around me, via use of my Ne.


For example:
As an Ne perceiver, I can be extremely flakey and playful and whimsical about things in the world around me. (That's my perceiving Ne at work.) But on the other hand, when I'm thinking hard about some ethical issue using my internal Fi judging function, I can be incredibly judgmental and even harsh in how I choose to view that issue. (That's my judging Fi at work.)

In other words, like most adults I'm a judger about some things and a perceiver about other things. That's why it's so difficult to test for personality type. Because it isn't always clear which function is being used when an answer is chosen. Did the person answer according to his Dom function or his Aux function? Because every adult has one perceiving function and also one judging function in his top two functions (the Dom and Aux functions).

As a result there tends to be a lot of ambivalence in how people deal with type-related questions or issues: Because they may be looking at things through the prism of their Dom function or the prism of their Aux function. And it's hard to tell which sometimes.

The whole discussion topic is here:
Jung J/P (rational/irrational) versus MBTI J/P: Do they even correlate?

Just need a final note that Fi/Ti being counted as a perceveing function in Myers (and Ni/Si as judging function in Myers) for stats had better results than just counting the extraverted functions.

Second thing, what was "to this point, disproven" is the cognitive function stacks - Ne-Ti-Fe-Si for ENTP, and not the cognitive functions themselves. The tertiary, in special, is completely unrealistic from the stats I gathered, and the last one - the achile heels that is not actually the 4th, but really the 8th (it wouldnt be achile heels if it was the fourth, and I gather test results to check what was more accurate, 4th or 8th, and 8th was more accurate) - is usually on the back of the stack but I found out that it wasnt appropriated, I have seen cases such as ISFP being a Ti-tard instead of Te-tard or highly balanced cognitive stacks that didnt had any clear achile heels or, still, multiple low cognitive functions. But yeah, for Ne-doms, Si tends to be on 7th or 8th position (6th,7th or 8th in most cases), same patterns. I think you already read me on the other thread INTP vs INTJ that the fact that you are a Ne-user doesnt mean you dont have Ni as a lot of people on typing websites believes. You are not mistaken Ne for Ni, Ne and Ni are correlated with each other in stats comparing multiple tests results - the ones who have one usually have the other one higher than Se and Si - and for people with high preference for intuition both presence are a must. But the whole thought proccess doesnt limit to one sequence order all the time. For example, ENTP though procces should start with Ne, but, sometimes, you have to start conceptualizing before having the ideas, which is you starting with Ti instead.

I have already three typing methods - but only bother to explain the concepts of one so far - and this one serves to give things more depth and remove black and white thinking, so sorry for giving you too much reads but I think you are ok with that so I dont need to create resumes...

A new vision of MBTI and function stacks: Open function stack

That topic is on my current signature.
The big deal about all these cognitive functions is that you shouldnt kill your Ni because you think you are ENxP and must be a Ne-dom. They can work togheter except where they conflict. There is no pseudo-Ni (ok, sometimes we mistake it, but being NP doesnt mean not having Ni)! Another thing, I think your cognitive function stacks already have a pattern. Its always Ne, Ni first, Se and Si on the back (although Se>Si by your words), and Te,Ti,Fe,Fi on the middle. Dont limit yourself thinking that you are ENTP and that only Fe and Ti and Ne are relevant (and the lack of Si). On the Open Stack schema, your "tertiary" are actually Te,Ti,Fe,Fi, your doms are Ne and Ni and your achile heels are Si and Se (it seems more Si). One reason I dont like this dom-theory is that you can show up with multiple doms sometimes. However, that schema is one out of 3 I have, and I applied partially the third one for reaching that E--P conclusion (the third can attack these cases that has different results).

Third, I dont know much about enneagram, but there is the tri-type thing. A lot of people see themselves in more than one of these enneagrams, and the tri-type is simply the 3 enneagrams you most relate. My tritype with wing is 9w1 7w6 5w4, where the latter could be 4w5, I just dont know yet. So in this specific test your two-type (theres no clear third) should be 57, with wings gives 5w4 7w8. Theres no way we know about which enneagram test is really the most reliable, at least I dont, so I recommend doing others. If you search the ones in "Whats My type" section, you can see others results and if their results match what they filled in "enneagram" below the avatar. And about these wings… I have no idea why 5w7 or 9w7 are impossible and why 5 wing is restricted to 4 and 6 and the same for others. Still havent figured it out yet and perhaps it is only a convention rather than a real reason.

Fourth, I think I can arrive with a final answer..
My type can be seen as D-N-A-P; N and P are stable traits for me, D is for Dynamic, changes through time, and A is for ambivalence - both preference. Yours seems to be D-N-A-D, Dynamic E/I just like me, clear intuitive, ambivalence in T/F, slightly more inclined to T, and Dynamic J/P. I came with Dynamic on this topic but Im not that used to the idea of dynamic besides on E/I. However, I already used my third method on myself, and my type removing the Dynamic (but that removal change partially what it means to be that type) is ENfP, with f in small/lower case because Im still ambivalent beside Dynamics. While yours, giving that I partially used the third method, is ENtP, with t in small because you are ambivalent. The E is because of the intelligence-introverts you thing, the P comes from correlation with E, the N was clear since the start, and the t in small Im still in doubt, could be f in small. Besides me perhaps even being a true E (still have some doubts), I have been I by a long time because of... You already know.

But Im still somewhat finding a lot strange about you two Dynamic J/P. Lucky for the whole MBTI, J/P for most people is usually static and only vulnerable to excessive neuroticism and apathy (or perhaps a few other disorders); Dynamic cases on that dimension are really rare (while for E/I dynamic cases are somewhat common, not really that common although).

 

[Pionart]

I see a lottt of Fe in your posts. Furthermore I see the ENFJ function order.

So, ENFJ.

 

[mancino]

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , thanks for all the info, so much to dig into. Homework for this we...

Btw, I had already read your Open Function Stack theory, very interesting. I agree that the worst part of the Cognitive Function model is the stack and the rigid order of preference, but I'm not sure that it can be fixed with a different one. Maybe it's the whole stack concept that is flawed.

The J-P vision is fascinating. So, one function for the outside, one for the inside, one P and one J, that part I knew already. But I never thought that you could interpret your J-P score as an "average" of the strength of this two functions. Is that what led you to my EP typing? Like, having an extraverted perceiving dominant function and an introverted judging auxiliary, so that i "feel" EP when leading with my dominant and IJ with my auxiliary? OR EP with Ne and IJ wiht (less dominant but still strong) Ni?

(out of curiosity, [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , which is your mother tongue? Maybe one that I speak?)

[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] , thanks for weighing in. I see Fe myself, but I have to ask: could you elaborate a bit more? Why are you so sure?
On the other hand, I could never see myself as an Fe-dom, my behaviour as a child is inconsistent with that. Could you see it as auxiliary Fe, ie Ni-Fe, INFJ? Or even tertiary Fe, ie Ne-Fe, ENTP? For sure I don't fit in a stereotypical INTJ type. As I said, I don't believe in the standard function stack, but still, Fe PoLR is something I could never, never relate to.

Thanks guys, I'm so glad I decided to star this thread, so much help from you all!

 

[noname3788]

[sorry if I reply late, but my post were never published, and I tried several times]

Yes, I jumped... I hope there's water down there.

First of all, thank you for the links, the MBTI test was the best test I took ever, now I understand why many people recommend to take the official test. Many questions made me think, you could tell that they put a lot of effort and fine tuning to have the right wording so as to catch all the nuances.

These are my results:




I am very surprised but, this time, I am more convinced, at least about my P-ness. Many questions were actually in the line of what I think about structure and planning: a means to an end, a useful tool but not the Bible; something that can be tweaked. I believe that is my N ruling it all: I see a possibility, I get excited about it (look how high my enthusiasm is, I fully relate to it), then I start envisioning infinite ways to make it happen; I go into J-mode with the best option T-wise, but at any time I tweak the plan as new options manifest themselves. This is the way I wrote all my books. I'm never fully committed to the plan, you see. And when structure is imposed on me from outside - especially with work and family schedule - I loathe it with all my heart. But many quizzes fail to grasp it, now I'm aware of that. For example, they ask you "I follow a schedule", which I do! But not one that I would follow if I could avoid it.

About E/I and T/F, I’m still unsure, but I can relate to the facets as they came out; I can be content saying that I'm an ET with some out-of-preference IF traits.

[continues...]

Error 404 sensing not found... I just like how you actually managed to score 0 on S in this test. The other scores indicate weak preferences for T and P and moderate E preference. Actually, any of the 8 N types seems somewhat plausible, even though you don't seem to fit INFP or INTJ stereotypes, not even slightly. Taking Enneagram into account, type 5 is typical for INTx types, your second-highest result 7 is typical for ENxP's. I think you've already read Vendra's post about MBTI/Enneagram correlation, however you may want to keep in my mind that most of these correlation where done in typology communities, with people who typed themselves with functions, but in most cases function type and dichotomy type is identical. Also, enneagram is problaby not the most exact and reliable personality assessment, even at 300 questions Also, just to add something unrelated to tests, your writing style reminds we very much of INFx types, especially INFJ's. Doesn't fit into your latest test results, but fits quite well into my first impression of you that a single type code may not describe you accurately. If there's something you demonstrated here then it is that you can adapt your way of thinking to the situation at hand. It allows you to learn quickly, to think in a rational manner, but also to express warmth, tact and care when needed. However MBTI theory (=cognitive function stacks) tries to find your way of thinking and making decisions, and it cannot succeed if there's more than one way. And that's what makes typing you so damn difficult.

Also, just wanted to say that you aren't boasting at all. It's actually quite the opposite, your style is quite humble, you respect other people, and you compliment other people. I guess you experienced that people react quite dismissive and maybe jelaous about your qualities, if they know them at all, and if they do they probably won't take your own problems seriously. As a consequence, you open up slowly about these topics, and generally only talk about it when other people mention it. Ofc I can't be sure whether it is actually the case here, but I guess it is, and it makes sense within the context. Maybe it could be a start towards getting to know more of yourself if you start researching and following your multiple interests

 

[Vendrah]

Error 404 sensing not found... I just like how you actually managed to score 0 on S in this test. The other scores indicate weak preferences for T and P and moderate E preference. Actually, any of the 8 N types seems somewhat plausible, even though you don't seem to fit INFP or INTJ stereotypes, not even slightly. Taking Enneagram into account, type 5 is typical for INTx types, your second-highest result 7 is typical for ENxP's. I think you've already read Vendra's post about MBTI/Enneagram correlation, however you may want to keep in my mind that most of these correlation where done in typology communities, with people who typed themselves with functions, but in most cases function type and dichotomy type is identical. Also, enneagram is problaby not the most exact and reliable personality assessment, even at 300 questions Also, just to add something unrelated to tests, your writing style reminds we very much of INFx types, especially INFJ's. Doesn't fit into your latest test results, but fits quite well into my first impression of you that a single type code may not describe you accurately. If there's something you demonstrated here then it is that you can adapt your way of thinking to the situation at hand. It allows you to learn quickly, to think in a rational manner, but also to express warmth, tact and care when needed. However MBTI theory (=cognitive function stacks) tries to find your way of thinking and making decisions, and it cannot succeed if there's more than one way. And that's what makes typing you so damn difficult.

Also, just wanted to say that you aren't boasting at all. It's actually quite the opposite, your style is quite humble, you respect other people, and you compliment other people. I guess you experienced that people react quite dismissive and maybe jelaous about your qualities, if they know them at all, and if they do they probably won't take your own problems seriously. As a consequence, you open up slowly about these topics, and generally only talk about it when other people mention it. Ofc I can't be sure whether it is actually the case here, but I guess it is, and it makes sense within the context. Maybe it could be a start towards getting to know more of yourself if you start researching and following your multiple interests

The thing about the enneagram table and every statistics is that they mostly work - always mostly, not always, and they have their exceptions. A variable J/P is already a special case that can cause an exception there. Its very different from some typings I had done with people who were straight an obvious INFPs for example. Also, there is the whole winging thing. I dont think that these wings were based on stats and I dot get where they come from or if there is a good reason for 7w5 and 9w7 being forbidden on Enneagram. It could be a mistake, although you understand that, if they had every wing possible, they would end up with way too many types. Even Jung "enneagraming" "limits the wings" (the wing of a judgment function must be a perceveing one and the wing of a perceveing function must be a judging one) but Jung had justifications for that (enneagram just states it).

There is one website that types you base on long texts... For some of mine texts it gave me INTP and INTJ, but... I had tested a lot of forumnites and it didnt got the right types for half of them, it kept saying that everyone write like INTJ! So its not worthy mentioning the link, the idea was super cool although.

"If there's something you demonstrated here then it is that you can adapt your way of thinking to the situation at hand. It allows you to learn quickly, to think in a rational manner, but also to express warmth, tact and care when needed. However MBTI theory (=cognitive function stacks) tries to find your way of thinking and making decisions, and it cannot succeed if there's more than one way. And that's what makes typing you so damn difficult"

You give a good description because thats seems to be your case either! I was going to put "right?", but, nope, its already a sure thing. It is important to note that this think in a rational matter but also express warmth is more a thing for borderline T/F than dynamic T/F. Dynamic T/F as I see is supposed to be more like a feeler or like a thinker according to the situation on a term of days, it gets quite complicated to explain but its slightly different. And I can already "see" you get excited to find a case just like yours, and that isnt a bad thing =).

[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , thanks for all the info, so much to dig into. Homework for this we...

Btw, I had already read your Open Function Stack theory, very interesting. I agree that the worst part of the Cognitive Function model is the stack and the rigid order of preference, but I'm not sure that it can be fixed with a different one. Maybe it's the whole stack concept that is flawed.

The J-P vision is fascinating. So, one function for the outside, one for the inside, one P and one J, that part I knew already. But I never thought that you could interpret your J-P score as an "average" of the strength of this two functions. Is that what led you to my EP typing? Like, having an extraverted perceiving dominant function and an introverted judging auxiliary, so that i "feel" EP when leading with my dominant and IJ with my auxiliary? OR EP with Ne and IJ wiht (less dominant but still strong) Ni?

(out of curiosity, [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] , which is your mother tongue? Maybe one that I speak?)

[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] , thanks for weighing in. I see Fe myself, but I have to ask: could you elaborate a bit more? Why are you so sure?
On the other hand, I could never see myself as an Fe-dom, my behaviour as a child is inconsistent with that. Could you see it as auxiliary Fe, ie Ni-Fe, INFJ? Or even tertiary Fe, ie Ne-Fe, ENTP? For sure I don't fit in a stereotypical INTJ type. As I said, I don't believe in the standard function stack, but still, Fe PoLR is something I could never, never relate to.

Thanks guys, I'm so glad I decided to star this thread, so much help from you all!

Im a brazilian portuguese speaker. And I´ve been in a dislike of my country for some reasons... But Im kind of bad in Portunhol (Portu-anish), had a friend that was an excelent Portunhol, he could voice chat spanish speakers just distorting portuguese with quite an ease....

My EP didnt came from that explanation... Actually I made one PS, that besides the good explanation in my starts using Fi as if it was a perceveing function in Myers led better results than just using extraverted cognitive functions to determine Myers J/P (and I tested that exactly on Open Function Stack). And I didnt reached to the EP part based on that. The neutrality of J/P, the idea of one side J and one side P for everytype, belongs to Jung J/P. I already measured Jung J/P using the same principles of Open Function Stack (to be more specific, using Fe+Fi+Te+Ti<=>Ne+Ni+Se+Si), most people are neutral on Jung J/P and thats the reason I think Myers made switches on Jung J/P (and she made changes on E/I either, because as Reckful explained and I think that post is in TypoC Wiki, Jung E/I has a correlation with N/S, as E had a tendency to be related to S and N tend to be related to I; And that makes quite an achile heels for Ne and Si). A dichotomy where most people are neutral is not useful for MBTI purposes, but it was for Jung psychology, perhaps the firts months when she started the whole system, when the firsts persons in the world taking the very first MBTI tests, she realized that most people didnt had a preference for J/P and decided to swap it in a way that most people have J/P preferences. In your case, you are neutral on Jung J/P, with a balance in rational (Jung J) and irrational (Jung P) side as most people are. That shows in your cognitive functions, the irrational from intuition are up, the irrational from sensing are down, and the rational ones (Te,Ti,Fe,Fi) are always in the middle.

The reason for EP was... it was simply because I observed that the higher your E, the higher was your P on your log. Actually, this has a deeper reason and is connected to my third typing method, but, I prefer to not share to not give too much clues about it, because there is a chance I will need this for personal use later (you two live on develop countries, even if you dont realize you get your living much easier than in Latin America, where only persons with a whole big lot of luck or that can inherit their jobs get a easier living while the rest live "with a headache" because its way harder to make a living; Im not the one that suffers the most, and I wouldnt be posting here if I was one of the most, but I still have plenty of headache, and Im being out of luck lately). However... "you can adapt your way of thinking to the situation at hand", my third method is supposed to get a type even with that, although my main idea first was to find a way to get the right type of a person with a lot of struggles, such as neuroticism>70 or apathy (emotion<10). And I started MBTI being apathetical - 16P thought I was INTJ at the beggining, and I thought I was a NT.. since my F is weak it is true that Im a little bit of NT... - so I really needed a bazuca to find my type and I made it by literally creating myself the bazuca =). It wasnt meant for these very adaptive cases but it should work either. But this method changes some deep meanings, because, you know, ENFP does no longer means having preference for E, N, F and P, but something different and that has to happen to justify the cases where an ENFP, gets, for example, ESFJ on a test (it happened on one of the 5-6 cases I could gather for sample... I only got 5-6 sadly).

There is one thing although... For some odd reason, I started to really "believe it all" with this topic...
It really got me sad that I realized that perhaps Ill never be ENFP (in the preference for E,N,F and P) while truly being ENFP because my enviroment and perhaps a not good choice of profession (because as you I didnt realize that I didnt clicked with most of engineers, I was different from them and perhaps not much compatible), although I buy the idea Robert A. Heinlein for me, I really never putted myself in "Im engineer" and all the sequence of that (which leads to "Im good at math", "I hate humanities", etc..). I think Robert is right as long as the person is not a Ne-tard (and we got lots of Ne-tards in the real world, the most common type in world is ISTJ which is a Ne-tard..). But getting back on subject, it makes me quite sad realize it, the possibility that I will never truly able of being myself - but perhaps Im not alone on that. Part of the problem with the ENFP personality for men is that ENFP is supposed to be and is mistakely taken as "feminine". Basically, the society has concepts of what is to be a man and what is to be a woman that doenst actually have much to do with truly being a man and truly being a woman and these misconcepts create a lot of headache for people on conservative enviroments full of extraverted SJs (althought the extraverted SJs doesnt fully explain that, it involves a lot of more stuff but the extraverted SJs play a big role on that) with the, unluckly, the "wrong" personality traits. And I am one of them. I have pseudo-feminine traits that I need to keep hiding and that has nothing to do with being gay or being a woman. There is even a music here were a woman sings... "Sou mais macho que muito homem"... "Im more male than many mens", the translation is something, but not exactly, like that. It seems that these standards doesnt realize that, if they end up reaching the conclusion that a woman is more men than an actually men, then there is something wrong with the whole concept of what is to be a man. Its like you reaching a conclusing that yellow is more blue than blue. But despise that, because these concepts are mostly pseudo-rational (people using these things praise themselves for a rationality that doesnt actually exist), they will be kept like that anyway. The same thing happens for some womans ISTP and INTP, usually the woman that are more men than I tend to be on these types, and it ends up that Im more woman than them, except they are still woman and Im still a man. Despise the whole concept being flawed, we are still forced to adapt to it. This seems to be my rant but my complete rant about me not being able to be ENFP is bigger than that, but it happens that you are at the same situation - you also have pseudo-feminine traits.
"A big caveat: during many years, I thought “men are T”, I was good at numbers, I don’t wear my heart on my sleeve… Long story short, I never doubted my T back then. Later, I discovered that a substantial share of men are F (25-40% I read somewhere), so I re-framed it; I started comparing my judgment with other men’s, and now I’m much inclined to see me in the “sensible” male minority."
And yeah, it pretty strikes me badly but Im accepting my need to be pseudo INTP sometimes... Actually more times than being myself. Still, I find Ti quite handy cognitive function.. Theres no directly measure about which cognitive functions you have skill, no test tests cognitive function skill, skill would be something like testing your ability to see patterns (N skills) or to perceive details (S skills) and deeper stuff, the tests only measure preferences. Im not bad at using Ti, although Im not really sure of that. I believe the preference and skill use of cognitive functions, or MBTI dichotomies if you want to get rid of cognitive functions, are different, so there must be some INTPs that are better ENFPs than I do and I should be a better INTP than some INTPs, and just to make sure the explanation is clear, in simple terms the INTPs that are better ENFPs than I have better social skills (mine are quite underdeveloped because I have been I for long time, but I was E in most of my childhood) and have better F, which is more or less emotional inteligence, than I. At the same time, I should have better thinking skills than some INTPs and being better at introverting, whatever that means. But I already talked wwwaayyy too much about myself now, but its super sad that it seems I truly wont be ENFP for my whole life, hope the conditions changes, or perhaps Ill be stubborn and try it and deal with the consequences even before reaching it.

 

[Vendrah]

One other thing... There is a website, perhaps you already heard of it or I already mentioned it, that is a community of typing fictional characters and famous people. Its called personality-database.

If you two were a fictional character, this community would say that you two are a bad written character

It reminds me... This is not from your age, but from my generation "Naruto" is a popular anime. And in there, there is one character called Sasuke (but the pronounce is Saske), and this guy is simply the most commented (you can comment on the character´s page and type him in enneagram and MBTI from there) guy. There is a funny fight: Out of 669 votes today, 290 thinks he is ISFP and 262 thinks he is INTJ. I had written right: ISFP vs INTJ! And there are people "killing themselves" on the comments and somewhat saying one or another are ridiculous because of that. And some people just grap the popcorn and read the comments.

I would answer that perhaps both are wrong, and would get a lot of downvotes if I did that, and that he is a Ni-Fi, but that would auto-imply that he is INFx which doesnt see the case. He is supposed to be the bad written character, because he has lots of alternate moments of ISFP and INTJ. And since, without realizing, that community is a little bit close mind and they follow the Grant Cognitive Stack (which means that they cant decide if the guy uses Fi-Se-Ni or Ni-Te-Fi). Perhaps this character isnt bad written, just unsusually dynamic.

Here are some funny coments, even if you dont know who the guy is or never watched it:
1: Guy A: "Sasuke is no INTJ. He might seem cool, aloof, uncaring, dark but he's just a product of others' manipulation. He's a tool. He's no mastermind. In fact, he's one of the lamest characters in the series. He's the Jar Jar Binks of Naruto."
Guy B: ""He's the Jar Jar Binks of Naruto",should be the most cruel way to insult a character."

2:
Guy A: "Childish Fi use, Delusions of Ni, Te seems in him, and the Se inferior Points to his complete lack of sense of reality.

A common autis... I mean, INTJ"
Guy B: "agree with the INTJs being autist but he is ISFP"
Guy C: "@GuyB NOOB"
Guy B: "Only noobs would vote Sasuke as INTJ, literally."

3:
Guy A: "For the 28389th time the votes are being spammed by mistyped fruits of utter filth who think they are INTJs.
Poor animals. I pity the dogs you are."
Guy B: "Lol why do you hate INTJ’s so much"
Guy A: "Hate is a strong word, I don't have that kind of energy to waste on subhumans.

I 'pity' the INTJ wannabes (most of the "INTJs" on internet). Like I would pity a poor animal.

The few real INTJs though are actual smart people and I have a mutual appreciation with every single one of them.

I can count the real INTJs on this website on the the fingers of my hands."

(...)
YouAre(Not)INXJ: "all of this comments section... is Just pure art. each Day there is more and more people who is realizing that INXJ self-inserters are really pathetic, Those IXXP kids can't face the truth." [his arrogant comment on the kids is pure art as well]

4:
"Inferior Se doesn't want to make reaility anything, they live into the wonderland. (...) Having Se as Inferior Means than you are a Turtle Person."
[INTJs and INFJs are supposed to all have inferior Se, so they are all suposed to be a turtle person. The guy kind of confirms that on other replies]

5:
"Emo=ISFP
End of dicussion
Close thread
Discussion over"

6: "Yesterday was INTJ
Today is ISFP
Tomorrow will be ISTP
After tomorrow?? Who knows"

7: "Um what? Why would any of us INTJ's want this loser categorized as one of us?

He's an emotional whiny lil kid that doesn't think things through and bases all his decisions on 'feels'

What's the most Emo category? ISFP I assume since that's the one he's tied with INTJ as

He's ISFP, end of!"
[eeeeeeemmmmoooooooooooo!]

...

They deleted some of the bests comments, partially because they were offensive.

And just to not you make think so bad about general MBTI community (I think that you already understand what Reckful cause is about - he posts stuff on at least 3 different forums), heres one interesting comment:
"I think that sasuke switches from ISFP to INTJ throughout the show. He’s a very hard character to type in my opinion since a lot of events happens to him that changes his personality so it can get hard to navigate. However, not everyone stays in one type all the time. I think people can switch from one type to another depending on the situation. If you’re an INFJ, I also believe that your Fe can switch to Te if a life changing event happens to you. The count of Monte Cristo was believed to be an ISFP at the beginning of the book but after spending time in prison he becomes an INTJ."

 

[mancino]

Error 404 sensing not found... I just like how you actually managed to score 0 on S in this test. The other scores indicate weak preferences for T and P and moderate E preference. Actually, any of the 8 N types seems somewhat plausible, even though you don't seem to fit INFP or INTJ stereotypes, not even slightly. Taking Enneagram into account, type 5 is typical for INTx types, your second-highest result 7 is typical for ENxP's. I think you've already read Vendra's post about MBTI/Enneagram correlation, however you may want to keep in my mind that most of these correlation where done in typology communities, with people who typed themselves with functions, but in most cases function type and dichotomy type is identical. Also, enneagram is problaby not the most exact and reliable personality assessment, even at 300 questions Also, just to add something unrelated to tests, your writing style reminds we very much of INFx types, especially INFJ's. Doesn't fit into your latest test results, but fits quite well into my first impression of you that a single type code may not describe you accurately. If there's something you demonstrated here then it is that you can adapt your way of thinking to the situation at hand. It allows you to learn quickly, to think in a rational manner, but also to express warmth, tact and care when needed. However MBTI theory (=cognitive function stacks) tries to find your way of thinking and making decisions, and it cannot succeed if there's more than one way. And that's what makes typing you so damn difficult.

Also, just wanted to say that you aren't boasting at all. It's actually quite the opposite, your style is quite humble, you respect other people, and you compliment other people. I guess you experienced that people react quite dismissive and maybe jelaous about your qualities, if they know them at all, and if they do they probably won't take your own problems seriously. As a consequence, you open up slowly about these topics, and generally only talk about it when other people mention it. Ofc I can't be sure whether it is actually the case here, but I guess it is, and it makes sense within the context. Maybe it could be a start towards getting to know more of yourself if you start researching and following your multiple interests

Maybe [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] has it right about you, [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] , and me... you understand me very well because we are very alike! I don't know enough about you to be sure about that, maybe you already have some post about yourself around here that I could read?

"Error 404 sensing not found" made me laugh! About your last comments, I can't relate to INFP - my wife is one, and even after 15 years knowing her, dominant Fi is a mystery to me. INTJ, as you know, was my first type back at the beginning of time, but I was never sold. Can I ask why you see it one of the least likely?

In your first post IIRC you asked me why I wanted to know my type. It was a question that I needed to be reminded of, a very useful one. At the beginning I thought that it could be useful to learn more about types for better character development in my books, as a tool. But I immediately discovered that typing was very powerful, that it resonated with the people around me, their behaviour, their motives (I always end up connecting everything to everything else). And so I started trying it on myself... and here I am.

But the answer is: I'm ok with not knowing my type. Type - in any system - is not the be-all end-all of the human essence. I believe Jung was onto something really deep - not just types and functions, I love his archetypes work, at multiple levels. However, if we believe what he wrote, that being extreme in any function is very unhealthy, the direct consequence would be that the easier is to find one's type, the clear one's preference are, the more unhealthy one is; on the other hand, the more one travels toward the middle, the more balanced one is, the better for one's psycologycal health; so being XXXX is the end of the journey! I'm not sure the typology community - especially Jungian - is aware of this.

It's nice that you see INFJ in my writing style, I definitely take that as a compliment! I've read INFJ profiles and I can relate, even to some ENFJ things - like [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] suggested. But NF description always sound like saints! It's soooo difficult to say yeah, I'm one of those. Perhaps it's enough to say "You can adapt your way of thinking to the situation at hand. It allows you to learn quickly, to think in a rational manner, but also to express warmth, tact and care when needed", it describes me pretty well. If that leads to no type, so be it.

"Humble" is just another compliment that I take with gratitude. Your guess was also right about people being jealous and dismissive when relating to me. Not everybody, lukily. I do follow my multiple interests, I'm quite satisfied with it, I could say I'm happy with the live I live. That is something wierd to write down on a forum, but still, that's the truth.

I feel this need to make an impact, or to get some sort of egotistic recognition, maybe, I don't know. Like with my novels, it's not that I want to "sell" more - I couldn't care less about the business itself - but when people tell me that they loved one character's internal struggle, or that what I wrote made them think, or simply that they had a good time reading, that gives me joy and pays me back for all the effort I put in all those pages.

There's more to say, but it has to be in another post

 

[mancino]

As usual, a lot of input from your side, @Vendrah .

I can't keep up commenting on all the ideas, but I will add some random stuff that comes to mind. The dynamic J-P concept is intriguing. I'm open to see it as two funcions clashing, one "J" and another "P", but can't come to any meaningful conclusion.

Your bimodal ENFP-INTP pattern is something I understand perfectly. And you're right about forgetting about living in the first world. Another thing to put in my little gratitude journal.
Anyway, going back to the bimodal pattern, I'm sure it has to do with the T-F "tangle" that reckful explained so well somewere (I think it was Pesonality Café but maybe also somewere else). Briefly, maybe T-F is not just one dimension, or maybe it's messed up with male and female (because of social pressure or other external biases).

Or maybe it has to do with our misunderstanding of what T and F mean. For example, I've always seen the IxFJ type given to fictional characters resembling the "protector" stereotype, for example in The Game of Thrones, Jon Snow being INFJ and Brienne of Tharth ISFJ. So they both should have Te as PoLR, which is surprising with their being warriors and fighters - Jon Snow should have even inferior Se, and many people say he's a textbook INFJ, being a reluctant hero.

Anyway, it's not that I want to dig into fictional types, it's just that those two types seem absurd but on the other hand they make perfect sense if you frame T and F differently: Te and Fe can be similar, Je means somebody that wants to arrange the environment, being auxiliary means according to some perceived Pi framework. Then, Fe is just like Te but with human values first: a warrior could even use Fe to lead as a general, giving orders like Te to pursue a common goal in the battlefield, it's just that the goal has human values first, not cold rational efficiency.

But then, when we apply those concepts IRL, we say "I can't be F, I'm not emotional, or I am rational, logical", especially we guys. If you define F in those terms, then I'm F to the bone. Being F doesn't mean you don't understand numbers or formula, or being moody, or acting in an irrational way, or deciding according to "feelings". It's a stereotype, IMHO.
Also, as being Limbic in the Big 5 Neuroticism obfuscates your real type, making you look F even if you're not, being Calm give a bias in the other direction, making you look T even if you're F.

Unrelated to this, if you indulge me, I'm giving you a short personal anecdote. I was browsing Typologycentral and I found a link to a nice short MBTI test by Personality Pathways so I gave it I try. At the beginning, it says:

Determining one's natural Myers Briggs Personality Type is frequently complicated by our life-long learning experiences. The classic question is: " Am I this way because I learned it or is this just the way I am?"

In reviewing the comparisons in our personality assessment, you may find yourself drawn equally to opposing personality preference choices. In such cases I suggest you try to think back to how you were before the age of 14 or even younger if you can recall. The rationale for this suggestion is the fact that by the time we are 3 years old, the core of our cognitive organization is well-fixed. . . although the brain continues to allow some plasticity into puberty and in some cases throughout life.

After the onset of puberty, our adult learning begins to overlay our core personality - which is when the blending of nature and nurture becomes more evident. For some people, this "learning" serves to strengthen what is already there, but with others it produces multiple faces to personality. Discovering or rediscovering this innate core of yourself is part of the journey of using personality types to enrich your life.

That suddenly reminded me of when I started learing to write in first grade (6 yo, that's the custom in Italy). I'm left handed (very much), so I started writing mirror-like: right to left, letters turned left-right around the vertical axis. I was gently corrected, so I started writing left to right, letters still turned; eventually, I got it "right". But if you see the way I write now, it's a conundrum of akward inventions: hand coming from above the line and covering what I've just written, counterintuitive pen point movement, circles done the other way round... like I had to reinvent the whole thing, finding my way in a system that was not invented for how I work internally.
Can you see the metaphor?
It's the way I feel. Not necessarily misunderstood, or isolated; simply different. So that I always have to find my path to deliever the expected result, my way. In the process, many times I streamline what's there, so that the result is great nonetheless.
I share it becaus I think it's window on my cognition, which is supposed to be what all this typology jazz is all about.

Now, which type is it? Who knows!
But it explains perfectly my bimodal J-P pattern: being J when the environment calls on it, being P otherwise. Now that I write it, it sound like J on the outside, P on the inside; that would be IJ, right? Inner perciever, outer judger? If my earlier take on F-T is right, that would confirm the INFJ gut feeling of @noname3788 , also @Legion 's ENTJ - he saw Fe but that is just the outside.

Food for thought.