P and J

[proteanmix]

No, I relate to that. It's why I have such difficulty in getting along with ExFJ's. The big ExFJ - especially ENFJ - trait that gets to me the most is when every time I express anything at all to them, like if I say something they've done was wrong or annoyed me, then it's always got to be 'where do we go from here? what does this mean for the dynamic of our relationship from now on?' Like they want a blueprint, they want me to give instructions for them on exactly how our friendship is to proceed, which to me is very stressful because I just figure, "why can't you just see what happens? can't you just take it as it comes? why do I have to commit to a plan of relationship with you?"

I can't speak for other ENFJs, but I don't deny I do this. More often than not, it works in both parties favor. It's called communicating. Many people seem to be allergic to this, but I don't view it as a negative thing. I don't mind temporary conflict as long as it results in a greater understanding. It also depends on the type miscommunication and how major it is. If it's professional or an important interpersonal relationship I will stop the presses and fix whatever is going on. If I don't, it can get pretty intense. If only for my own mental well-being because I am very disturbed when I feel bad vibes floating around. I figure its for the good of the community.

ETA: I prefer a collaborative approach to relationships. I'm not waiting around for someone to give me instructions on how to proceed.

I don't understand this though...if you know this is a reoccurring problem you have with EFJs, why don't you use that flexistraw Ne of yours and realize that it's not them doing anything against you, it's just a way EFJs communicate? How many times do you have to get knocked over the head with it? I have difficulty believing that if you experience this problem with every ENFJ or ESFJ you are forced to endure, it's them. It's probably a lot of you.

And the worst part is where they assume that I've signed up to some relational plan or contract that I wasn't even aware of, just because I seem to have behaved in a way that, so far, hasn't contravened it. So that if I decide to 'end' it or break it, I get accused of betrayal of trust, when all I've done is to try to distance myself from someone I find annoying and hard work.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Again :rolli:

I guess this may be why people have problems with ENFJs. In my experience, most people don't want a proactive solution to overcoming differences. Most people just want to ignore it until it magically fixes itself. I truly have a let's do this, let's fix this attitude about relationship. I'm not just going to be passive about it, so if that rubs people the wrong way then I don't know what to say to them. When I encounter people like this, I just avoid them.

 

[substitute]

I guess this may be why people have problems with ENFJs. In my experience, most people don't want a proactive solution to overcoming differences. Most people just want to ignore it until it magically fixes itself. I truly have a let's do this, let's fix this attitude about relationship. I'm not just going to be passive about it, so if that rubs people the wrong way then I don't know what to say to them. When I encounter people like this, I just avoid them.

Yeah, but you see, just because my response isn't to make a blueprint or plan of how to proceed, that doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the situation or intending to solve it. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and what the ENFJ is asking me to do as a 'solution' is only, in fact, compounding the problem for me.

What I mean is that if someone says to me 'you really piss me off when you hock loogeys in the mashed potato', then I wouldn't be asking them how we can mutually agree on a plan of action. I'd just make a mental note that it annoys them and then do with that information whatever I felt was right at the time - even if that means to just stow it away and do nothing for now, or to hock even more loogeys just to piss them off. I might choose to hock loogeys when they're not looking, so I can enjoy doing it without it upsetting them. I might choose to just not have mashed potato with them for a while, or to just go and spend time with other people who like hocking loogeys in mashed potato. I don't see why I should be obliged to negotiate and agree to a loogey-potato management programme just because the ENFJ sees it as a problem, or just because they want to have a plan of action and feel more comfortable that way.

Not only that, but I might feel like I don't know what I want to do righ tnow, and I want to wait and see how things pan out. I might think, for example, that at the moment we're all too close to the situation and I need to take a step back and get some advice from other people before I figure out how I actually feel about that person and what I want to do about it. I might want to make my decision away from the pressure of that person's feelings and expectations as they sit in front of me asking "Where do we go from here?"

Then again, I might be thinking, "Dude, we just had a disagreement, shit like that happens from time to time. More to the point, I'm not attached to you really and don't care that much if I never see you again, so I can't really be doing with spending a lot of my energy devising and keeping to plans and treaties that only you're bothered about. As far as I'm concerned, there may not even be a dynamic between us except of me thinkingyou're a pain in the ass and you thinking I'm an obnoxious mashed potato defiler. And I'm quite happy to leave it that way."

It's precisely this plan/agreement/contract sort of approach towards solving things that is what annoys me, so trying to resolve my irritation at always being held to plans and asked to make them, by making a plan, isn't helpful!!

 

[proteanmix]

Yeah, but you see, just because my response isn't to make a blueprint or plan of how to proceed, that doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the situation or intending to solve it. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and what the ENFJ is asking me to do as a 'solution' is only, in fact, compounding the problem for me.

What I mean is that if someone says to me 'you really piss me off when you hock loogeys in the mashed potato', then I wouldn't be asking them how we can mutually agree on a plan of action. I'd just make a mental note that it annoys them and then do with that information whatever I felt was right at the time - even if that means to just stow it away and do nothing for now, or to hock even more loogeys just to piss them off. I might choose to hock loogeys when they're not looking, so I can enjoy doing it without it upsetting them. I might choose to just not have mashed potato with them for a while, or to just go and spend time with other people who like hocking loogeys in mashed potato. I don't see why I should be obliged to negotiate and agree to a loogey-potato management programme just because the ENFJ sees it as a problem, or just because they want to have a plan of action and feel more comfortable that way.

I think the ENFJs in your life are looking more for assurances that you care and you realize there is a problem than a plan itself. That probably manifests itself in "What are we going to DO??!!!??!! NAG, NAG, NAG. Natch..." When someone I care about treats situations that I view as problems nonchalantly I treat that as a sign of how they feel about me and the relationship. It's up to those involved to define what a problem is. If I know something matters to someone, I'll try to be reasonably accommodating and help them out. I probably unrealistically expect that courtesy back. If they don't think it's a big deal then we need to at least talk to each other about why we feel that way. Me, I'm a talker and usually talking about it makes me feel better. I don't always need a plan, just acknowledgment. But plans are nice.

It seems to me like the ENFJ way of solving problems doesn't jive well with your way of solving problems. Unless you're willing to battle it out with the ENFJs in your life then you guys need to find a common language.

Not only that, but I might feel like I don't know what I want to do righ tnow, and I want to wait and see how things pan out. I might think, for example, that at the moment we're all too close to the situation and I need to take a step back and get some advice from other people before I figure out how I actually feel about that person and what I want to do about it. I might want to make my decision away from the pressure of that person's feelings and expectations as they sit in front of me asking "Where do we go from here?"

The only thing I can recommend is to just say that. Say exactly what you just said, and since you're dealing with a ENFJ give them some sort of approximate range of when you'll be ready to talk. I'm not trying to sound anal, but that's what I respond best to. I've had people say to me, "I'm not ready to talk now, but I will be if you just give me some time to think" I usually chill out after that because I know at least they're thinking about it.

Then again, I might be thinking, "Dude, we just had a disagreement, shit like that happens from time to time. More to the point, I'm not attached to you really and don't care that much if I never see you again, so I can't really be doing with spending a lot of my energy devising and keeping to plans and treaties that only you're bothered about. As far as I'm concerned, there may not even be a dynamic between us except of me thinkingyou're a pain in the ass and you thinking I'm an obnoxious mashed potato defiler. And I'm quite happy to leave it that way."

I don't try to be bestess friends with every person I meet. Maybe this particular ENFJ feels there's a connection, but it's only one way. I don't know any gentle ways to break it to them. Hopefully, if they're at all attentive to any cues you're sending out, i.e freezing beams of ice shooting from your hardened eyes, they'll chill out. If someone I liked came right out and said they didn't like me, I'd tuck in my chin bite my lip and say, OK and leave them the hell alone. Like you said, that's life.

It's precisely this plan/agreement/contract sort of approach towards solving things that is what annoys me, so trying to resolve my irritation at always being held to plans and asked to make them, by making a plan, isn't helpful!!

Hence this thread

 

[substitute]

I think the ENFJs in your life are looking more for assurances that you care and you realize there is a problem than a plan itself. That probably manifests itself in "What are we going to DO??!!!??!! NAG, NAG, NAG. Natch..." When someone I care about treats situations that I view as problems nonchalantly I treat that as a sign of how they feel about me and the relationship.

Yeah, except that I might not really see it as a problem. What I mean is that it always appears to me with ENFJ's as though the situation that needs to be brought about in order for them to feel happy and satisfied, is one in which I simply cannot function, and vice versa. And in actual fact, I might NOT care about my relationship with that person, and I might resent the fact that they're sorta of behaving as though I'm morally obliged to care, just because for some reason, they do. It's weird how when I try to present it the other way around, to propose that they stop caring because I don't, they say that's absurd and unreasonable... lol But I can no more feel things to order than you can stop feeling them.

It's up to those involved to define what a problem is. If I know something matters to someone, I'll try to be reasonably accommodating and help them out. I probably unrealistically expect that courtesy back.

Yeah... that's just it. If one of the parties thinks there's a problem but the other doesn't, it seems pretty irreconcilable to me. Likewise, if the thing I need the ENFJ to do to 'help me out' is to stop asking me for a plan of action or whatever, which, if they accommodate it, makes them feel unhappy and uncertain and insecure - what to do??

If they don't think it's a big deal then we need to at least talk to each other about why we feel that way.

Brave words, I've heard them from countless ENFJ's across countless galaxies... heheh, now they're all Borg!

LOL No, seriously, I've heard so many say that, but do they REALLY want me to sit across from them and say, "You see, the thing is, you really get on my nerves, you're just far too uptight and everything about you irritates the hell out of me, and I'm just not interested in being your friend or even getting along with you. It doesn't bother me that I don't, though it's nothing personal, so I'm not interested in altering my behaviour in order to accommodate you. Therefore, I plan to just deal with you as little as possible." ???

I mean, I don't like upsetting people or being mean or causing unnecessary hurt, so I fail to see why someone insists on playing with fire, so to speak, by trying to force something out of me that neither I want to say nor they want to hear.

It seems to me like the ENFJ way of solving problems doesn't jive well with your way of solving problems. Unless you're willing to battle it out with the ENFJs in your life then you guys need to find a common language.

Or just accept that the 'everyone getting along and understanding each other' ideal is just that - an ideal - and that if occasions come along wherein it simply can't realistically be achieved, then it's best to just avoid each other. I mean, you really can't please all of the people all of the time, and someone who refuses to accept that and insists on trying to make sure that everyone is pleased all of the time seems a bit neurotic to me...

I don't try to be bestess friends with every person I meet. Maybe this particular ENFJ feels there's a connection, but it's only one way. I don't know any gentle ways to break it to them. Hopefully, if they're at all attentive to any cues you're sending out, i.e freezing beams of ice shooting from your hardened eyes, they'll chill out.

Yeah... well I'm not just talking about one It's a pattern that happens always between me and ENFJ's of any gender. But I don't want to send out freezing beams of ice - I just want to be able to be civil to everyone and be able to exist pleasantly with them - it just seems impossible for an ENFJ to understand that I can do that without needing to like, understand or approve of everyone.

If someone I liked came right out and said they didn't like me, I'd tuck in my chin bite my lip and say, OK and leave them the hell alone. Like you said, that's life.

Hm, well you're a healthy one then. Extremely. Every one I've known hasn't taken it that well. They've responded by manically going around everyone we both know and trying to rally support onto their side, making some kind of weird social battle out of it! LOL

It might not be a particular P/J thing but maybe an ENTP/ENFJ thing (or at least a T/F thing, since I get along so very well with ENTJ's) - I mean if people making accommodations and compromises to all get along and be nice is something important to an ENFJ, and yet making compromises is something that comes especially hard to the ENTP, then it's doomed, really, n'est-ce pas?

 

[Mycroft]

[cue silly insult exchange]

Please quote the post where I employed a term of insult.

 

[niffer]

Everyone that I've typed so far has ended up a J. I would have to disagree that they are more into the results than the actual process, I think it's the other way around. Or perhaps they're into both. I dunno. They care so much about everything, it seems. Everything in this world is something that needs to be taken care of. Whenever I contradict myself in some teeny, unimportant way that does not affect the wellbeing of anyone else but me (or I don't care if it affects others), all the Js (= all my close friends) kind of gang up and bomb me about it and I have to explain why all their fussing is irrelevant, and then they go, "Well...pshh." They are always fussing!

An example of this "always needing to take care of things" phenomenon that I've experienced was a few days ago when my ENFJ friend, my INFJ friend, and I were watching a volleyball game together in the gym after school. My INFJ friend was being all play-PMSy (something that my ENFJ friend fails to notice) and was randomly throwing out insults at the players. After a while he threw an insult at me. Although I couldn't help from being wounded deep down, I knew that it was just another act of my INFJ friend's stupidity, and that he made himself look bad by saying it, and so I just raised my eyebrows and shook my head mock-disappointedly. My ENFJ friend, however, took it upon herself to defend me, and started trying to justify me and attack my INFJ friend with disapproval, but consequentially only making me look worse and her look like an idiot. It went on for quite a while, and finally my INFJ friend asked, "Why are you defending her anyways?" And I agreed with him and asked her that again. She responded with, "Well, you're not defending yourself!" I said, "That's because I didn't care." She was lost for words. I mean, I appreciated her effort and support, but, really, wtf. Not everything needs to be dealt with.

I guess the nature of the thing that needs to be dealt with and the tenchique of dealing with it is different for each J type. I believe that I connect best with J types, but some aspects of their lives are just too uptight, too intense...and so we don't get each other 100% of the time. They seem to linger too much on problems that pop up and can slow things down, but they take so long to finally get that those problems are not even in the same sector of what I am trying to get them to grasp. It's like taking an ENTP, getting him to make a logical flow chart that provides the reasoning for two different concepts at the same time right after he's learned of them, supressing and limiting his area for creativity to make him angry, and then having him convert his learnings into a speech to be presented in front of a large crowd of university students. This is how Js often appear to me when they are "dealing" with things.