[NT] NTs . . . Why are You Messy?

[Halla74]

My older brother is an INTJ.

He is, and always has been a SLOB.

Despite this organizational shortcoming, he truly is brilliant.

I'm thankful he is married now and that his wife is a neatnick.

 

[Helios]

And for those that know messy NTs . . . what's your opinion on this matter?


This is intended to be a psychological examination with the purpose of discovering why a so-called rational person can be so systematically irrational.


In advance, thanks for your help.

The creation and maintenance of an "organised" living space is not worth the (slight) gain in efficiency in locating items in this living space afforded by said organisation.

 

[violet_crown]

And for those that know messy NTs . . . what's your opinion on this matter?


This is intended to be a psychological examination with the purpose of discovering why a so-called rational person can be so systematically irrational.


In advance, thanks for your help.

I have more important things to do or think about then how my room looks. It's my space and I frankly could care less.

And I'd argue that it's the height of irrationality to waste time and effort straightening up something that's just going to get messy again. There's a lot of things worth struggling against; entropy doesn't count among them.

 

[Athenian200]

I can imagine an NT responding something like this:

"Actually, I'm not messy. I only appear messy because I don't put things up and out of sight, or place things that are similar in nature close together. I leave things in consistent, accessible places so I know where they are, and make sure to leave objects near the places that I'll use them regularly. My organization of things is laid out based on the tasks I perform regularly in a particular area rather than aesthetics. I only bother to put things 'away' if I know I won't be using them for a while. I actually save a lot of time that I would otherwise spend shuffling through drawers or pulling something down off a shelf. I get things done more quickly and efficiently than people who seem organized. I also save a lot of time/energy by waiting until the end of the day to throw away garbage that accumulates on my table all at once, rather than discarding it as it's created the way most people expect me to."

Of course, this NT may simply be imaginary. I don't know if any NTs actually exist that have this mentality.

 

[MacGuffin]

A certain level of organization is an inefficient use of time. What that level is varies from person to person. Some people need higher levels, others lower ones.

 

[kyuuei]

ah, but you see it's not what I'm doing.... it's what i don't do and I don't justify things that I don't do - that's just illogical!

I don't need to justify my messy room (i have the laws of entropy and all for that), I need to justify cleaning it in the first place (which I can't do, cuz i dont see the point)

I could easily justify cleaning: Health. Anyone who tells me it's just as easy to dust, vacuum, wipe down, and disinfect a bedroom that uses the floor as their shelf as a tidy area is a liar and never cleans. Having so many things out and about and all over the place, laundry strewn around everywhere, etc. means more things to collect dust, dirt, and hold those things within the space.

lighten up dude....

The mess is because there are MUCH more interesting things to spend ones time on. Tidying just means it will get messy and require to be retidied again a few das/weeks later...

Personally I think that someone ought to invesnt a self dusting house... I think that is the most futile of all house hold chores....

This one I almost do get, because this is the way I thought when I was growing up, aka a teenager. I thought, "I could clean my room where only I reside, or I could help mom clean the living room real quick and do better things like exercise and play with my friends." and guess which I picked.

Where this fails at is I think NTs are underestimating the power of an inviting space. To come home to something tidy, organized, appealing to the eye and in order gives a sort of subconscious peace... like even if everything outside is chaotic and insane, at least my place has order.

I think it's also said that you reap what you sow, and if you sow chaos and disorder and make up all sorts of excuses to get out of obligations to maintain order and tidyness and cleanliness, than you reap the benefits of all that you put into it.

A certain level of organization is an inefficient use of time. What that level is varies from person to person. Some people need higher levels, others lower ones.

I'll disagree on this point as well. I think that having a higher standard for order and organization is extremely important. If a hotel room mimicked a disorganized space, you'd be quick to complain and call the manager. You paid for a space to reside in and it's slop. So how is paying for your own items, your own space, and things that you own have a lower standard than that of a space that isn't yours at all??

I have a high standard for clean, and when I take something out, I find a place for it again and put it straight away back to where it goes. When I buy new objects, I also buy or already have a space for it within my living quarters. I used to be very messy and think I was organized.. but the truth was, I would 'clean' my room and find money I didn't know I had, things I'd forgotten about.. It's amazing what you forget you have just because it isn't in plain sight.

I'm totally with you Haight, it just seems illogical for anyone to live in disorganization, or even attempt to justify it outside of Tink's honest answer of "I think I have better things to do" or the oh-so honest "I'm lazy, and it disinterests me."

 

[MacGuffin]

I'll disagree on this point as well. I think that having a higher standard for order and organization is extremely important. If a hotel room mimicked a disorganized space, you'd be quick to complain and call the manager. You paid for a space to reside in and it's slop. So how is paying for your own items, your own space, and things that you own have a lower standard than that of a space that isn't yours at all??

I have a high standard for clean, and when I take something out, I find a place for it again and put it straight away back to where it goes. When I buy new objects, I also buy or already have a space for it within my living quarters. I used to be very messy and think I was organized.. but the truth was, I would 'clean' my room and find money I didn't know I had, things I'd forgotten about.. It's amazing what you forget you have just because it isn't in plain sight.

I'm totally with you Haight, it just seems illogical for anyone to live in disorganization, or even attempt to justify it outside of Tink's honest answer of "I think I have better things to do" or the oh-so honest "I'm lazy, and it disinterests me."

Higher than what? Depends on your comparison. I've been to people's houses where I was afraid to touch anything, as even the stack of magazines was ruler-edge straight.

 

[kyuuei]

^ I think the standard is health-based for me. As long as I can efficiently clean the area in a very short amount of time to maintain it's health quality (as in, dust, dustmites, laundry washings, etc.) than the space is orderly enough for quality of life. This seems like a reasonable approach to the situation for anyone.

I've definitely also been to houses that were more like museums. I don't think this fits the definition of an inviting space for me, or many others, but to some this is their standard so that's fine I suppose.. I'm not saying anyone has to have a museum for a bedroom.. but being capable of dusting, wiping, vacuuming, and throwing a load of laundry in the wash within 10 minutes I think is a very reasonable request. If anyone has to spend more than 10 minutes cleaning their room, they've let it go too far. I don't like spending hours and hours sifting through crap out of laziness.

 

[jenocyde]

I'm always as light as a feather, so don't worry about that, dude.

And, I'm not concerned with the issue of dusting, vacuuming, etc. I'm speaking to a system, which is easily created, that will ultimately allow more time to do you "interesting things." In other words, it's much faster to put something in a logical location in order to easily locate it, or them, than it is to have to spend time looking and thinking about where the items are at present time. If NTs are about systems, than why would so many of them continually live in disorder, lack of precision, and carelessness?

It is, in fact, illogical and waisting precious time for "philosophizing."

I see what you mean. I keep my house and mind in the same sort of pile, but I know exactly where everything is if I need it. I don't need to do the extra step of filing it away properly. It's just an extra step that seems pointless to me and it actually keeps the information further away from me.

It's like when I am in a rush to get dressed but I don't know what I want to wear. I have to go in the closet, take things off hangers, try things on and hang them back up. There are just too many steps and it's more effiecient to keep everything in a big pile on the floor.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I see what you mean. I keep my house and mind in the same sort of pile, but I know exactly where everything is if I need it. I don't need to do the extra step of filing it away properly. It's just an extra step that seems pointless to me and it actually keeps the information further away from me.

It's like when I am in a rush to get dressed but I don't know what I want to wear. I have to go in the closet, take things off hangers, try things on and hang them back up. There are just too many steps and it's more effiecient to keep everything in a big pile on the floor.

+1!

I also hate it when someone else starts 'organizing' my stuff. It's fine the way it is!

 

[kyuuei]

^ So what's wrong with sifting through hangers, trying it on, throwing it on the bed in a pile and hanging it up again later when you're not in a rush?? I figure anyone worried about what they're wearing in the first place wouldn't want something wrinkled or accidently mussed up just because it was in another common area.

I think ya'll are being extreme about this. It's not about being a museum at all, it's not some anal tedious tendency to be extremely clean all the time.. It's just about not being a total slob and making more work on yourself. Like I said, it takes two seconds to put shoes in a particular place, just as much time as it takes to fling them off your feet anywhere.. but the difference is, come time to vacuum, you're not Re-moving those shoes again while attempting to vacuum.

 

[avolkiteshvara]

^ So what's wrong with sifting through hangers, trying it on, throwing it on the bed in a pile and hanging it up again later when you're not in a rush?? I figure anyone worried about what they're wearing in the first place wouldn't want something wrinkled or accidently mussed up just because it was in another common area.

I think ya'll are being extreme about this. It's not about being a museum at all, it's not some anal tedious tendency to be extremely clean all the time.. It's just about not being a total slob and making more work on yourself. Like I said, it takes two seconds to put shoes in a particular place, just as much time as it takes to fling them off your feet anywhere.. but the difference is, come time to vacuum, you're not Re-moving those shoes again while attempting to vacuum.

Wow you vacuum?

 

[kyuuei]

Once a week, yes I do. I dust every 4 days, approximately, in my room, and every other week I dust the things I hardly touch or mess with, like my books on my bookshelf. Keeping in mind, these things combined take me 5 minutes to do, as almost nothing is left out for dust to collect on.

 

[MacGuffin]

I think ya'll are being extreme about this. It's not about being a museum at all, it's not some anal tedious tendency to be extremely clean all the time.. It's just about not being a total slob and making more work on yourself. Like I said, it takes two seconds to put shoes in a particular place, just as much time as it takes to fling them off your feet anywhere.. but the difference is, come time to vacuum, you're not Re-moving those shoes again while attempting to vacuum.

Do you put shoe trees on your shoes like I do? Like I said, different levels for different people.

 

[kyuuei]

You put shoe trees on your shoes but then have no laundry standards or something??

Taking in mind, I'm assuming yours posts have hinted at there are areas where you assume yourself messy..

 

[MacGuffin]

You put shoe trees on your shoes but then have no laundry standards or something??

Taking in mind, I'm assuming yours posts have hinted at there are areas where you assume yourself messy..

No one, I mean no one, is good enough to do my laundry! I am very picky about it!

My desk is covered in papers and receipts and CDs and books. But I know where they are all located...

 

[kyuuei]

^ But then, doesn't that make your desk dusty then? I'd imagine it's quite impossible to dust so many papers and books off scattered like that.

It's quite possible to be 'organized' in the chaos of things, but organization doesn't always lend to being tidy. and then one wrong move, or pounce of the kitty cat, or spilt drink, and all those papers wet and gone in an instant? .. >.< Too much 'what if's for me..

 

[MacGuffin]

^ But then, doesn't that make your desk dusty then? I'd imagine it's quite impossible to dust so many papers and books off scattered like that.

It's quite possible to be 'organized' in the chaos of things, but organization doesn't always lend to being tidy. and then one wrong move, or pounce of the kitty cat, or spilt drink, and all those papers wet and gone in an instant? .. >.< Too much 'what if's for me..

I do have to take everything off and dust it on occasion. Usually when I try to organize I lose things. "I know I put it in a place where I wouldn't lose it..."

 

[jenocyde]

^ But then, doesn't that make your desk dusty then? I'd imagine it's quite impossible to dust so many papers and books off scattered like that.

It's quite possible to be 'organized' in the chaos of things, but organization doesn't always lend to being tidy. and then one wrong move, or pounce of the kitty cat, or spilt drink, and all those papers wet and gone in an instant? .. >.< Too much 'what if's for me..

I have someone come in to clean, because I don't want to be bothered with that, either.

But a glimpse into my organizational thought process which seems so clear to me:

I think I mentioned earlier (or in another thread??) that I keep my shoes that I'll be wearing the next day in the fridge (wrapped up, of course). That way I don't leave the house without my lunch because I have to physically open the fridge on the way out. The downfall is that I often change my mind about what shoes I'll wear, so I end up with like 10 pairs in there.

Then it snowballed from there. That fridge keeps everything contained and away from the rest of the chaos. So if I have an important meeting the next day, all my paperwork also goes into the fridge. Now since I rarely cook, the whole thing is quite stupid. I always have my shoes, keys, documents and other random shit in the fridge, but never any food. There is no lunch to forget.

 

[kyuuei]

.. I have never ever heard of that before in my life. I giggled really hard what an interesting concept!!