[NT] NT women and femininity *thread split*

[Reverie]

Masculinity is consciousness. Femininity is existence.

Consciousness is unchanging. Femininity is always changing.

Masculinity is the witness. Femininity is that which is witnessed.

That is so sexist my head just exploded. Sorry, but no dice. I'm a witness. I am consciousness and unchanging. All that is in me. My physical manifestation comes with XX chromosomes but that's about it. How much you choose to identify with some biological traits or your cultural brainwashing is a matter of choice. As a Ni dom you should really understand. Tisk tisk.

My point is that for women who tend to be more masculine (i.e., NTs; maybe Ts in general), and for men to who tend to be more feminine (i.e., NFs; maybe Fs in general), this is likely a bigger problem.

I don't think so. I have worked closely with many women who have "manly energy" if by that you mean that they are go-getters, no nonsense movers and shakers, ENTJs, ISTPs, ESTPs and ESTJs and I've never noticed a lack of admirers. The guys admiring them weren't in any ways "effeminate". Not that there's anything wrong with being a more poetic, softer energy kind of guy. I dated one for some years and he was sexy. Handsome and intriguing. I thought he was manly.
As for NF guys... My husband is an ENFP and generally considered the most manly man around. Though there is a stereotype perpetrated on this forum that logic and calculus makes a man "manly" I would say there is a whole another stereotype I've come across that I would use for "manly". I would say that if I buy into manly it's the motorcycle riding, hod-roddin' housebuilding, alligator wrestling, pecks of steel, chest hair touting, gasoline smelling piece of man specimen I'd endow the label "manly". That's my kind of manly that there. Burt Reynolds. John Wayne.

I'm talking about femininity in terms of behavior.

Maybe you don't understand what that is very well.

I've essentially heard as much about Australian women.

I'm an NF and I have aux Fe so I come accross relatively warm-ish, but I'm for the most part more focused and dynamic than many of the men I work with when there is something to be done. They used to call me boss lady, so you know. And I'm a fluffy NF

 

[Zarathustra]

That is so sexist my head just exploded. Sorry, but no dice. I'm a witness. I am consciousness and unchanging. All that is in me. My physical manifestation comes with XX chromosomes but that's about it. How much you choose to identify with some biological traits or your cultural brainwashing is a matter of choice. As a Ni dom you should really understand. Tisk tisk.

For the moment, I'm not gunna finish reading the rest of your idiotic, grave-dredging post.

Considering how poor of a job you've done understanding what I said, your post doesn't really warrant a response.

Nevertheless, I will gift you with one: when did I ever say females were not able to engage in masculine energy?

 

[Reverie]

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]
I don't see how being a witness is being masculine. Or any of the other things you stated.
I did dabble in accidental thread necromancy.
Even the basic female archetypes have more variety than the picture of womanhood you painted including fierce and abominable archetypal characters. Those energies are not given, borrowed or partaken to, but a part of.

 

[Zarathustra]

Zarathustra
I don't see how being a witness is being masculine. Or any of the other things you stated.

That's fine.

But don't go around making nonsensical statements and falsely accusing someone of sexism.

If you don't understand, the better thing to do is to ask for clarification.

The concept that I was pointing to is complex.

These videos are decent starters.

There is other information I can point you to as well.

And, per your post, absolutely, Kali/Shakti is a manifestation of feminine energy.

In fact, what I was basing that (2-year old) post off draws heavily from the Hindu spiritual tradition.

 

[Riva]

I find that uber-masculine men are attracted to "challenging" women, be that challenge a physical, mental, or fill-in-the-blank challenge.

Uber-masculine men wan't to conquer a woman, especially a woman who seems impenetrable, (no pun intended ), to his advances.

+1

 

[Reverie]

That's fine.

But don't go around making nonsensical statements and falsely accusing someone of sexism.

If you don't understand, the better thing to do is to ask for clarification.

The concept that I was pointing to is complex.

These videos are decent starters.



There is other information I can point you to as well.

And, per your post, absolutely, Kali/Shakti is a manifestation of feminine energy.

In fact, what I was basing that (2-year old) post off draws heavily from the Hindu spiritual tradition.

I was accusing you of sexism because I don't see how these concepts have anything to do with gender or anatomical parts (I haven't heard implied before that bhakti would be a gender related yoga. In Christian mystical tradition the devotional love for Christ surely isn't reserved for only females either.) As for the witness, it's a concept found in many traditions and is not gender related. Is it the witness, buddha nature, the holy guardian angel, the higher self, it is our true nature and birthright. Gender has none to do with it. I appreciate you sharing these videos but I wouldn't really take them as credible sources over longstanding spiritual traditions.

P.S. No woman needs a man as a witness. The unity of the "male" and "female" happen within us. Sad is the person who assigns a part of themselves to another.

 

[Zarathustra]

I was accusing you of sexism because I don't see how these concepts have anything to do with gender or anatomical parts...

Where in that post did I say that they did?

(I haven't heard implied before that bhakti would be a gender related yoga.

I don't know why you're bringing up bhakti yoga, but I actually have heard it explicitly stated that bhakti tends to be more female-oriented (and female-derived). This doesn't, by any means, preclude men from it, but it does tend to appeal more to women.

In Christian mystical tradition the devotional love for Christ surely isn't reserved for only females either.)

Once again, I don't get why you're bringing up these other things.

As for the witness, it's a concept found in many traditions and is not gender related. Is it the witness, buddha nature, the holy guardian angel, the higher self, it is our true nature and birthright. Gender has none to do with it.

Once again, when did I say it was gender-related?

The more honorable thing to do here would be to admit that you read things into my (years old) post that I never said.

I appreciate you sharing these videos but I wouldn't really take them as credible sources over longstanding spiritual traditions.

Well, if you knew anything about these men, you'd know that they are both (likely) far more adept students of the major longstanding spiritual traditions than you or I.

 

[Reverie]

Where in that post did I say that they did?



I don't know why you're bringing up bhakti yoga, but I actually have heard it explicitly stated that bhakti tends to be more female-oriented (and female-derived). The doesn't, by any means, preclude men from it, but that it does tend to appeal more to women.



Once again, I don't get why you're bringing up these other things.





Once again, when did I say it was gender-related?

The more honorable thing to do here would be to admit that you read things into my (years old) post that I never said.



Well, if you knew anything about these men, you'd know that they are both likely far more adept students of the major longstanding spiritual traditions than you or I.

I was bringing up bhakti because I actually watched those videos. The first one opened with that lady who seemed to think that the reason there is Sunyata type meditations is because "Men invented them" whereas women would be more prone to be pagan. And then he made a comment about women like Mother Theresa being somehow more devotional, implying a kind of a dynamic of male-witness, female-bhakti or devotional and for some reason, which I don't see any ground for, drawing some type of shoddy relationship conclusions from this in the vein of "men are from mars and women from venus". What have these concepts to do with normal regular human relationships? None whatsoever. Those concepts have to do with an individual's relationship with the divine/their own true nature.
P.S. Don't tell the Hare Krishnas that you think Bhakti's for girls... or christians... or bhakti yogis.
And I'll still stick to other sources for info.
P.P.S. About the concepts I was referring to. they were from your post stating:

Masculinity is consciousness. Femininity is existence.

Consciousness is unchanging. Femininity is always changing.

Masculinity is the witness. Femininity is that which is witnessed.

 

[Zarathustra]

P.S. Don't tell the Hare Krishnas that you think Bhakti's for girls...

Thank you for that extreme twisting of my statement into something I didn't say.

You seem to be very good at that.

Although, frankly, when I think of Hare Krishnas dancing around in the streets (or bhakti yogis), the first thing I think of is not masculinity.

And I'll still stick to other sources for info.

Good for you.

P.P.S. About the concepts I was referring to. they were from your post stating:

You mean the post where I never mentioned gender once? Thanks.

What a delightful feminine dance you've done trying to avoid admitting you were in the wrong.

The masculine thing to do would've been to say, "Oh, sorry. Clearly I done fucked up."

 

[BlackCat]

Masculine energy =/= males... wow. Masculinity is not the same as being a man. What the hell.

You do understand the concept of masculinity and femininity, right [MENTION=14212]Reverie[/MENTION]? There are feminine males and masculine females just the same as there are masculine males and feminine females. It's an energy. He wasn't talking about the actual genders.

 

[Nicodemus]

The masculine, the feminine, energies?

 

[Zarathustra]

The masculine, the feminine, energies?

You just need to spend some time in California.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

That is so sexist my head just exploded.

That's not because a talk is sexist that necessarly it is wrong.

 

[Reverie]

Thank you for that extreme twisting of my statement into something I didn't say.

You seem to be very good at that.

Although, frankly, when I think of Hare Krishnas dancing around in the streets (or bhakti yogis), the first thing I think of is not masculinity.

Good for you.



You mean the post where I never mentioned gender once? Thanks.

What a delightful feminine dance you've done trying to avoid admitting you were in the wrong.

The masculine thing to do would've been to say, "Oh, sorry. Clearly I done fucked up."

WHy would that be a masculine thing? I haven't backed down because to me it seemed you had an underlying idea in your posts about men being manly a certain way (passive, calm, cerebral) and women being feminine in a certain way (flimsy, emotional, illogical) which I think is a poor stereotype and then from that concluding that INTJ women must have a hard time in the dating world because by that definition the are "unfeminine". Then I saw what I thought was a reference to spiritual concepts and erroneous at that and I have a problem with such. I usually have problems on the idea level because it in turns creates personal philosophies, which when you discuss them can perpetrate more stereotypes and also peoples ideas influence their behavior very concretely, like you just drawing a conclusion about me not "admitting I'm clearly wrong= female". If I'm wrong maybe I'm just a ditz. What has the inside of my pants have to do with it. I'm sure you're wrong at times too and think you're right and press the issue. Are you then "being feminine"?
As for that idea that man is the watcher and the woman the the one who is being watched stinks. The actual spiritual of the watcher has none to do with gender.
On top of that the male energy would not be passive and calm, since that is how you seemed to define maleness as a kind of a stable stoic force. Symbol for male energy is more so the Sun, active force, yang bright, positive, dynamic, expanding and female energy would be yin would be dark, passive, downward, cold, contracting, and weak. So in some sense you could claim all introverts would have feminine energy.
I admit it's only what I thought I sensed while reading your post that you may have such ideas which I don't think really translate into the realm of any type of relationship advice. Is it so or am I wrong? If I'm wrong then I am wrong. Then I apologize.

Masculine energy =/= males... wow. Masculinity is not the same as being a man. What the hell.

You do understand the concept of masculinity and femininity, right [MENTION=14212]Reverie[/MENTION]? There are feminine males and masculine females just the same as there are masculine males and feminine females. It's an energy. He wasn't talking about the actual genders.

Do we all agree on what male or female energy is? Do we agree on how to determine the degree of masculinity or femininity of someone? Do you agree with the descriptions he gave of femininity and masculinity. I don't really. Ideas and principles are the very things that define why we speak of things the way we speak of them. I don't agree with the principles I thought were behind his comments on what is quintessentially male and what is female. I believe in any case that those energies are all mixed in each individual human being.

 

[Zarathustra]

You clearly don't get it, despite the fact that it's been explained to you multiple times by multiple people.

As such, I'm done here.

 

[Coriolis]

You just need to spend some time in California.

<lots of incredible photos>

But how are they relevant to your point?

 

[Rasofy]

 

[Zarathustra]

But how are they relevant to your point?

To profound thinkers, a slight indication is sufficient to discover great truths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy

*can't find the last link about California girls and energy*

 

[Red Herring]

Ni porn!



Do genes and hormones influence how we act, think and perceive things? Yes.
Do I believe in the existence of "energies"? No.
Do I believe "the feminine" or "the masculine" exist beyond simple biology or shaky social constructs? Hell no.


PS: Beautiful pictures for sure, but I couldn't possibly tell which are supposed to be feminine and which are masculine. I'm tone death to spirituality and always have been.

 

[Coriolis]

PS: Beautiful pictures for sure, but I couldn't possibly tell which are supposed to be feminine and which are masculine. I'm tone death to spirituality and always have been.

Agreed. I still need to check out the wiki link. If the photos are supposed to represent masculine and feminine energy, though, I can already say I see both energies in each. But my view of masc/fem is different from what has been expressed so far by some. To me, masculine is active, outgoing, bright; feminine is passive, receptive, dark. These are often represented by the sun and moon respectively. So, personally, when I am being introspective and contemplative, ruminating on ideas I am using feminine energy. When I act in the world to bring those dreams and plans to fruition, I am using masculine energy. That is just a tip of the iceberg.