[NT] NT women and femininity *thread split*

[Zarathustra]

I was just curious to see if there are many female NT's out there who either find it difficult to find a relationship, keep a relationship, or just stay interested in relationships in general. Relationships are, in general, challenging, but is it more challenging for you compared to other people you're with? Do you find your friends getting into relationships a lot quicker than you, or is it easier for them, etc.?

So, do you find it difficult to find a date or keep a relationship in your interest, why or why not?

I think part of the problem is that the Rationals are generally a more masculine group (well, not INTPs...).

Just check the statistics -- we're dominantly male.

The disproportion is ridiculous.

Anyway, sexual polarity is such that masculinity is attracted to feminity, and feminity to masculinity.

As such, equipping a female with a masculine personality is like putting a feminine personality in a male (like NF men, for the most part).

While masculine NT females may feel some kind of sexual attraction for feminine males (due to their sexual polarity), not only are feminine men a smaller percentage of the population (metrosexuals shouldn't be considered feminine, but just neutered, really ) than masculine men, but, perhaps at a deeper, more biological level, even though an NT woman's masculinity may be attracted to femininity (in men, or in women), she may still have instinctual urges to be ravished by a strong, masculine man.

But this creates a friction, because her masculinity will repel masculine men, like two sexual magnets of the same polar charge.

And the feminine men who her masculinity might be attracted to, probably won't be able to fulfill all of her instinctual female desires.

I can only imagine all the difficulties this would cause in romantic relationships.

Feminine men and masculine women seem kinda just unfortunate in love.

Kinda sad when you think about it.

 

[Salomé]

I think part of the problem is that the Rationals are generally a more masculine group (well, not INTPs...).

Just check the statistics -- we're dominantly male.

The disproportion is ridiculous.

Anyway, sexual polarity is such that masculinity is attracted to feminity, and feminity to masculinity.

As such, equipping a female with a masculine personality is like putting a feminine personality in a male (like NF men, for the most part).

While masculine NT females may feel some kind of sexual attraction for feminine males (due to their sexual polarity), not only are feminine men a smaller percentage of the population (metrosexuals shouldn't be considered feminine, but just neutered, really ) than masculine men, but, perhaps at a deeper, more biological level, even though an NT woman's masculinity may be attracted to femininity (in men, or in women), she may still have instinctual urges to be ravished by a strong, masculine man.

But this creates a friction, because her masculinity will repel masculine men, like two sexual magnets of the same polar charge.

And the feminine men who her masculinity might be attracted to, probably won't be able to fulfill all of her instinctual female desires.

I can only imagine all the difficulties this would cause in romantic relationships.

Feminine men and masculine women seem kinda just unfortunate in love.

Kinda sad when you think about it.

Not as sad as this desperate trolling.

 

[Zarathustra]

Not trolling.

If I'm trolling, then I don't quite understand what it means. This would be the first time I've ever been accused of it. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you, like, the defense attorney for trolls?

These are genuine thoughts.

I've been having them for awhile, and was just discussing them with my ENFP girlfriend the same day I made that post.

See, I am an INTJ, and I have an INTJ sister.

The INTJ archetype is, for the most part, an extremely masculine archetype.

If I were to rank archetypes on a scale from femininity to masculinity, it would go something like:

ESFJ/ESFP/ENFP/INFP/ISFP
ISFJ/INFJ/ENFJ
INTP
ISTP/ESTP/ENTP
ISTJ/INTJ
ESTJ/ENTJ

Now, that's not a hard set list (I just made it off the top of my head), and there is undoubtedly variation within each archetype (some XXXXs will be more/less masculine and some will be more/less feminine), but, on the whole, for the overall masculinity/femininity of each archetype, I think it's a decent start.

Now, I just made that list freehand, without having any working theory in mind, really (other than having already come to the belief that the NTs are a rather masculine group).

But do you see the obvious dichotomy?

The top half of the list is all F-types.

And, after the fact, I, and probably most any reasonable person, would be willing to say that, on the whole, and for the most part, F-types are more feminine, and T-types are more masculine.

As such, if you believe in sexual polarity (i.e., that the masculine is attracted to the feminine, and the feminine to the masculine), and that men and women can both be more or less masculine/feminine, then, if you're willing to accept my rankings above (perhaps with some subtle changes), then you would have to conclude that NT women, for the most part, and on the whole, are more masculine than most other females.

As such, due to the problems I mentioned:

1. Their masculinity will be attracted to femininity, which -- like their own female masculinity -- will tend to be less present in men.

2. Deep down, even though they have a masculine exterior, there is some femininity inside her, and that femininity ultimately desires a strong masculine man to unleash it, and to ravish it.

3. But this creates a conflict, because her exterior masculine face will potentially repel masculine men (once again, due to sexual polarity).

Now I believe the above is true, and so does my ENFP girlfriend.

So, how about you deal with the ideas, rather than simply accuse someone of trolling who's never been accused of it, and tell us whether you agree or disagree with the ideas above, and why or why not.

 

[Tallulah]

As such, due to the problems I mentioned:

1. Their masculinity will be attracted to femininity, which -- like their own female masculinity -- will tend to be less present in men.

2. Deep down, even though they have a masculine exterior, there is some femininity inside her, and that femininity ultimately desires a strong masculine man to unleash it, and to ravish it.

3. But this creates a conflict, because her exterior masculine face will potentially repel masculine men (once again, due to sexual polarity).

You're saying NT women have masculine faces and exteriors? That is possibly the weirdest thing I've read on this forum, and quite far from the truth. I would think most NT women would be hard to tell from other types until you got to know them and interacted with them, understanding their way of approaching the world.

 

[Uytuun]

2. Deep down, even though they have a masculine exterior, there is some femininity inside her, and that femininity ultimately desires a strong masculine man to unleash it, and to ravish it.

3. But this creates a conflict, because her exterior masculine face will potentially repel masculine men (once again, due to sexual polarity).

Ahaaaa!

But what if there's some masculinity in the mostly feminine men that go for the masculine facade?



Do you pity your sister?

You're saying NT women have masculine faces and exteriors? That is possibly the weirdest thing I've read on this forum, and quite far from the truth. I would think most NT women would be hard to tell from other types until you got to know them and interacted with them, understanding their way of approaching the world.

Lol, I never even registered that as face, went directly to "facade" - I assume he means energy.

Femininity is multi-facetted to me...there's girlish whimsical femininity, more nurturing feminity, dark sophistication, free-spirited creation...

 

[Zarathustra]

You're saying NT women have masculine faces and exteriors? That is possibly the weirdest thing I've read on this forum, and quite far from the truth. I would think most NT women would be hard to tell from other types until you got to know them and interacted with them, understanding their way of approaching the world.

Face = Exterior

I meant "face" metaphorically. Like "mask".

 

[Zarathustra]

Ahaaaa!

But what if there's some masculinity in the mostly feminine men that go for the masculine facade?

Actually, I think this is precisely the case.

Do you pity your sister?

In some sense, yes.

She's an incredibly strong woman, and she's married to a really cool guy, but sometimes she just needs to let go of the ice queen act, chill the fuck out and go with the flow.

She is incredibly masculine; barely feminine.

Her husband is a nice mix of both: he's manly, but he's also boy-like.

His boy-likeness brings the "feminine" aspect into their relationship.

But you see her femininity sometimes, and it's nice...

Lol, I never even registered that as face, went directly to "facade" - I assume he means energy.

You are correct.

Femininity is multi-facetted to me...there's girlish whimsical femininity, more nurturing feminity, dark sophistication, free-spirited creation...

Completely agreed.

Femininity is multi-faceted; masculinity is singular.

Hence, this song.

 

[Tallulah]

Ah, okay, I gotcha. I don't know that that's true with most NT women, though, as much as people want to start threads about how to spot them, etc. I think most would say I have a pretty overtly feminine exterior, and I get a lot of attention from men who react only to that.

My problem has not been men who don't think I'm feminine enough. It's been that a lot of them don't challenge or interest me. They don't share my interests, or they think that looking good or having muscles is enough, or whatever.

 

[Zarathustra]

Ah, okay, I gotcha. I don't know that that's true with most NT women, though, as much as people want to start threads about how to spot them, etc. I think most would say I have a pretty overtly feminine exterior, and I get a lot of attention from men who react only to that.

My problem has not been men who don't think I'm feminine enough. It's been that a lot of them don't challenge or interest me. They don't share my interests, or they think that looking good or having muscles is enough, or whatever.

This is the part where I come to your side and admit that most men are pathetic wimps.

Not in the not-big-enough-muscles kinda way, but in the man-child kinda way.

Luckily, there's a movement underway to make men more masculine again.

Hopefully it works...

Stay soft and strong, intelligent sister.

 

[Uytuun]

In some sense, yes.

She's an incredibly strong woman, and she's married to a really cool guy, but sometimes she just needs to let go of the ice queen act, chill the fuck out and go with the flow.

She is incredibly masculine; barely feminine.

Her husband is a nice mix of both: he's manly, but he's also boy-like.

His boy-likeness brings the "feminine" aspect into their relationship.

But you see her femininity sometimes, and it's nice...

Why does it bother you if they're happy, though?

You are correct.

*points at type*

Femininity is multi-faceted; masculinity is singular.

What's your reason for saying masculinity is singular? For one, it can be both wickedly spontaneous and sensual and sharply composed and cold in my experience.

 

[Zarathustra]

Why does it bother you if they're happy, though?

Their happiness doesn't bother me.

Their unhappiness does.

What's your reason for saying masculinity is singular? For one, it can be both wickedly spontaneous and sensual and sharply composed and cold in my experience.

Masculinity is consciousness. Femininity is existence.

Consciousness is unchanging. Femininity is always changing.

Masculinity is the witness. Femininity is that which is witnessed.

 

[Salomé]

Ah, okay, I gotcha. I don't know that that's true with most NT women, though, as much as people want to start threads about how to spot them, etc. I think most would say I have a pretty overtly feminine exterior, and I get a lot of attention from men who react only to that.

My problem has not been men who don't think I'm feminine enough. It's been that a lot of them don't challenge or interest me. They don't share my interests, or they think that looking good or having muscles is enough, or whatever.

I find typically masculine men ARE attracted to me. Especially alpha types. Most disgust and/or bore me, either immediately or eventually.

 

[SillySapienne]

I find typically masculine men ARE attracted to me. Especially alpha types. Most disgust and/or bore me, either immediately or eventually.

I find that uber-masculine men are attracted to "challenging" women, be that challenge a physical, mental, or fill-in-the-blank challenge.

Uber-masculine men wan't to conquer a woman, especially a woman who seems impenetrable, (no pun intended ), to his advances.

 

[SillySapienne]

To clarify, what I mean is that an immature masculine man will simply want what he can't have, he will try to get that which cannot be gotten in order to prove to himself that he's the shit.

 

[Zarathustra]

I find that uber-masculine men are attracted to "challenging" women, be that challenge a physical, mental, or fill-in-th-blank challenge.

Uber-masculine men wan't to conquer a woman, especially a woman who seems impenetrable, (no pun intended ), to his advances.

Yeah, but this can simply be attraction to the challenge.

I met an ESTJ on a plane once, and I was very intrigued with her from the start. She was a beautiful, strong black woman. Former model.

Ended up dating her, and, as I got to know her, I came to realize I was not attracted to her. I thought she was beautiful, but her highly rational nature did not stir up attraction in me. She lacked that feminine flair that gets a (masculine) man going.

It was a rather important learning lesson...

Having dated an extremely irrational ESFP for a long time, I thought I wanted a more "rational" mate.

Then I realized I'm not exactly attracted to women for their rationality...

 

[Zarathustra]

To clarify, what I mean is that an immature masculine man human being will simply want what (s)he can't have, (s)he will try to get that which cannot be gotten in order to prove to himthemself that (s)he's the shit.

 

[SillySapienne]

My INTP female best friend does happen to have troubles in the romantic relationship arena, as does my ESTJ sister, of course, these are simply two people neither necessarily indicative of the entire T-female population, but to be honest, both of these particular individuals have problems in all of their relationships. :/

I'm an NF female and I have plenty-o-problems with men, so I'm not sitting on any high horse, here.

But, as an intelligent, confident, learned woman, it is difficult to find a man who can handle me.

I find that I am best suited for confident and highly intelligent men, these fellows don't seem threatened by my capacity to think freely and deeply for, and by, myself.

 

[SillySapienne]

. She lacked that feminine flair that gets a (masculine) man going.

Now, the question is....

Are NT, or T females inherently less feminine than F females?

I always joke with my INTP bf and say that we are equally yet differently masculine in our behavior.

Her masculinity comes from her relative lack of social skills, and mine from, I dunno, my raunchy, loud-mouth, no shame in my game attitude.

 

[SillySapienne]

Having dated an extremely irrational ESFP for a long time, I thought I wanted a more "rational" mate.

Then I realized I'm not exactly attracted to women for their rationality...

Interesting realization, there.

So, what are you attracted to, in women?

 

[Zarathustra]

Interesting realization, there.

So, what are you attracted to, in women?

Femininity.