"No problem" vs "you're welcome"

[anticlimatic]

I find a large portion of social interaction to be utterly pointless and I just don't see the purpose of nit picking something that most people aren't actually analyzing. My energy is better channeled elsewhere.

A person remembers how an exchange feels, and although they might not be analyzing it consciously, 'not a problem' will diminish that feeling. It's fine if you don't care about how the people you conduct business with feel, but if you're attempting to survive in some form of sales in the real world, that frame of mind is a death sentence. I hope you have a trust fund.

Also, are you really promoting trust in people you openly acknowledged as offering false sentiment? What a fragile world we live in.

The only thing required for trust is predictability. And in business I like pleasantness and a well mannered disposition to be among the things one can predict.
The world is tough. We're the fragile ones, which is why we tread cautiously.

You're being validated by people who apparently share your beliefs because it in turn affirms their own. Big deal.

No, I'm being validated by people of all walks of life and age and outlook because I embody traits that are objectively admirable. Which is kind of a big deal, since anyone could probably do the same and share in my success. Especially millennial types, who seem to be struggling with that very thing.


This article does a good job validating my position on the matter:

A Case Against The Phrase 'No Problem' : 13.7: Cosmos And Culture : NPR

"To my ear, though, "no problem" is absolutely the wrong way to reply to an expression of thanks — for the simple reason that saying "thank you" isn't, or shouldn't be, a veiled way of making an apology.

Saying "no problem" in place of "you're welcome" always strikes me as self-defeating. I thank you for your service, or your gesture, or your generosity, or you kindness. So why are you even mentioning problems?

By saying "no problem," it always seems to me as if what you are really saying is: "It is a problem and I forgive you for it."

If every act of kindness is expected to solicit the embarrassed spirit of apology on the part of the beneficiary, then it's not much of a kindness, is it?

It calls attention to the negative, the problems, the inconveniences, the good deed and, so, it swells the one getting thanked and diminishes the one thanking. It negates the gratitude by transforming into debt and apology."

 

[Coriolis]

Very good point. People are almost always obsessed with what you do and not who you are. Then they judge you by your occupation. The job isn't the person. I always try to tip a little extra with waitstaff because I know that that job is an exercise in patience when dealing with rude customers who treat you little better than indentured servants.

But what we do is a big part of who we are. Actions speaking louder than words, and all that. I tip waitstaff generously, too, because I understand they have a hard job and their pay structure makes them dependent on tips for their income. In doing so, though, I am very much recognizing what they do: serve me while I dine in their establishment. Sure - the job isn't the person, or at least it is only a part of the person, but if I am interacting with someone in their professional capacity, it is the part that is most important. This does not justify incivility, in fact just the opposite as professional and business interactions are often characterized by a greater degree of formal courtesy than other interactions.

"To my ear, though, "no problem" is absolutely the wrong way to reply to an expression of thanks — for the simple reason that saying "thank you" isn't, or shouldn't be, a veiled way of making an apology.

Saying "no problem" in place of "you're welcome" always strikes me as self-defeating. I thank you for your service, or your gesture, or your generosity, or you kindness. So why are you even mentioning problems?

By saying "no problem," it always seems to me as if what you are really saying is: "It is a problem and I forgive you for it."

If every act of kindness is expected to solicit the embarrassed spirit of apology on the part of the beneficiary, then it's not much of a kindness, is it?

It calls attention to the negative, the problems, the inconveniences, the good deed and, so, it swells the one getting thanked and diminishes the one thanking. It negates the gratitude by transforming into debt and apology."

Wow. If the author of this article is going to go around assuming people mean the exact opposite of what they say, he has much misunderstanding in store for him.

Let's pick apart the "thank you" side of the exchange for a moment. When I thank someone, I often explicitly acknowledge the time, effort, perhaps money it took for them to do for me the thing I am thanking them for. I might say, "I really appreciate your taking the time to review my paper. I know how busy you are getting ready for the annual review." A reply of "no problem" reassures me that the person was able to fit this into his schedule with minimal disruption; or perhaps it was a disruption, but a welcome one. A reply of "you're welcome" at best means that, problem or not, the person didn't mind doing it; at worst it is simply an empty phrase, no more meaningful than the "e-i-e-i-o" that follows "Old McDonald had a farm".

 

[Population: 1]

But what we do is a big part of who we are. Actions speaking louder than words, and all that. I tip waitstaff generously, too, because I understand they have a hard job and their pay structure makes them dependent on tips for their income. In doing so, though, I am very much recognizing what they do: serve me while I dine in their establishment. Sure - the job isn't the person, or at least it is only a part of the person, but if I am interacting with someone in their professional capacity, it is the part that is most important. This does not justify incivility, in fact just the opposite as professional and business interactions are often characterized by a greater degree of formal courtesy than other interactions.

When someone is a doctor or an anthropologist or a professional musician sure it's part of them. It's a passion that they've dedicated years to. A cashier cashiering? Hardly their life's aspiration I'm guessing. Yet people will look at you with disdain for it. In that case the job is not the person. It is a necessary function of a business and a necessary occupation for the person at that time. However serving food or cashiering or flipping burgers is probably not the thing inspiring those individuals and others shouldn't assume it's all they're capable of.

I dislike the disrespect I've seen individuals doing these jobs receive. They put up with a fair amount of entitled condescending pricks who treat them as subhuman. So you're welcome or no problem are equally fine with me as long as we're being civil to one another. I try to even joke with them a bit to acknowledge the fact that I know there's a human being in front of me. I know their day is filled with others that don't recognize it.

 

[Shiver]

A person remembers how an exchange feels, and although they might not be analyzing it consciously, 'not a problem' will diminish that feeling. It's fine if you don't care about how the people you conduct business with feel, but if you're attempting to survive in some form of sales in the real world, that frame of mind is a death sentence. I hope you have a trust fund.

I can honestly say that I don't bother thinking about an interaction with a cashier after I leave a store. If I say anything at all, it will usually be something which actually regards them as a human being along what Population: 1 described, rather than a performing drone to help me feel better about my own place in the world by virtue of the unequal relationship between us. The idea that this sort of fake crap is relevant to whether some people are able to put food on their table because of irrational people who want to be fed an illusion for every minute of their waking lives is rather repulsive to me. I'm actually less inclined to visit a store that puts on a bigger "act" because it's so damn bizarre to me.

And I'm not in sales, no.

The only thing required for trust is predictability. And in business I like pleasantness and a well mannered disposition to be among the things one can predict.
The world is tough. We're the fragile ones, which is why we tread cautiously.

I'll take a genuine but somewhat unpleasant world any day, but then I find unpleasantness in the idea of someone being forced to sell out part of what makes them human with the assumption that my ego is truly that fragile. It's actually somewhat insulting that anyone would feel the need to act that way - some might actually be that fragile, but I am not. Why should anyone have to pander to people like this?

No, I'm being validated by people of all walks of life and age and outlook because I embody traits that are objectively admirable.

This isn't adding anything new. If the traits were truly universally admirable, I don't think this exchange would be taking place. Clearly not everyone values the performances you demand from others, else you wouldn't be attempting to demonize an entire group of people with your very next statements. You keep patting yourself on the back though if it helps you sleep at night...

Which is kind of a big deal, since anyone could probably do the same and share in my success. Especially millennial types, who seem to be struggling with that very thing.

I don't really consider acting falsely and being as fragile as you describe to be any degree of success, personally. Even if I were poor (I'm not), I'd sooner continue to retain all of my personhood. Also, the idea of there being any great level of "success" for the aforementioned cashiers in America is just delusional, millennial or not.

This article does a good job validating my position on the matter:

A Case Against The Phrase 'No Problem' : 13.7: Cosmos And Culture : NPR

"To my ear, though, "no problem" is absolutely the wrong way to reply to an expression of thanks — for the simple reason that saying "thank you" isn't, or shouldn't be, a veiled way of making an apology.

Saying "no problem" in place of "you're welcome" always strikes me as self-defeating. I thank you for your service, or your gesture, or your generosity, or you kindness. So why are you even mentioning problems?

By saying "no problem," it always seems to me as if what you are really saying is: "It is a problem and I forgive you for it."

If every act of kindness is expected to solicit the embarrassed spirit of apology on the part of the beneficiary, then it's not much of a kindness, is it?

It calls attention to the negative, the problems, the inconveniences, the good deed and, so, it swells the one getting thanked and diminishes the one thanking. It negates the gratitude by transforming into debt and apology."

I know this was mentioned by another user here, but this completely falls apart in the underlined section because the writer is deliberately misrepresenting the phrase. Literally, "No problem" can be more closely related to "It is not a problem". Hence the inclusion of the word "no". How then does someone get "It is a problem" out of that? Worst case scenario, I might interpret, "It could have been a problem, (implied: but it was not)". How absurd.

Besides which, this is all negated by the fact that a mindless repetition of the phrase "Thank you" is so very often utterly lacking in sincere gratitude from the start. You've already admitted you're just spitting out phrases devoid of any deeper meaning; it's all a business transaction to you. Why not just save time and effort by removing all of these ridiculous stock phrases altogether? Wouldn't this be more efficient? More mechanical? You're clearly already seeking to remove the authentic human element. Best case scenario (for purposes of feedback, I suppose), shouldn't you be looking for a shortened form of "Good doing business with [you] today"?

And do you really think that the cashier who just checked you out is doing so out of kindness? They don't require your vaunted false gratitude because they're already being "thanked" in the form of a (probably small) paycheck. Make no mistake, they're not stuffing your shit into a bag because they want to, they're only doing it because there is a very material reward in doing it. Do you honestly believe that the average cashier would seek to perform a kindness in such a mindless, repetitive task if they actually had any further choice in the matter? And if they did, what makes you believe that they care about your gratitude at all? Is any kindness actually for the sake of another person, or are we not all, in our very cores, incredibly selfish creatures trying to delude ourselves into believing quite the opposite? The whole idea of kindness being present at all is one of the biggest mistakes in this whole mindset.

I'd very much like to see how far this could be constructed as an Fe vs. Fi thing, because it seems to me that Fe in this instance could be renamed "De", along the lines of Extroverted Delusion. The idea of a life with it as my leading function seems unfathomable...

 

[Coriolis]

When someone is a doctor or an anthropologist or a professional musician sure it's part of them. It's a passion that they've dedicated years to. A cashier cashiering? Hardly their life's aspiration I'm guessing. Yet people will look at you with disdain for it. In that case the job is not the person. It is a necessary function of a business and a necessary occupation for the person at that time. However serving food or cashiering or flipping burgers is probably not the thing inspiring those individuals and others shouldn't assume it's all they're capable of.

I dislike the disrespect I've seen individuals doing these jobs receive. They put up with a fair amount of entitled condescending pricks who treat them as subhuman. So you're welcome or no problem are equally fine with me as long as we're being civil to one another. I try to even joke with them a bit to acknowledge the fact that I know there's a human being in front of me. I know their day is filled with others that don't recognize it.

Once again, you are mixing up two different ideas: courtesy, and identity. It is never a good idea to be condescending or rude to employees in service jobs (or elsewhere), whether they identify with their jobs or not. And I agree that most cashiers, etc. have no aspiration to those roles long-term. The fact remains, though, that that is their role while on the job. They are representing their store or company to me, their customer. That forms the basis for their interaction. Yes, there is a whole entire person behind that, but I don't need to be concerned with that. I just need to treat them with common courtesy and respect, as I should treat everyone.

 

[Population: 1]

Once again, you are mixing up two different ideas: courtesy, and identity. It is never a good idea to be condescending or rude to employees in service jobs (or elsewhere), whether they identify with their jobs or not. And I agree that most cashiers, etc. have no aspiration to those roles long-term. The fact remains, though, that that is their role while on the job. They are representing their store or company to me, their customer. That forms the basis for their interaction. Yes, there is a whole entire person behind that, but I don't need to be concerned with that. I just need to treat them with common courtesy and respect, as I should treat everyone.

It is a divergent thinking problem I think. I connect things even when a thread is focusing on a specific aspect of something. Western civilization just gets to me sometimes with it's preoccupation with- well occupations and materialism. Plus it's late/early and I definitely need sleep. Anyway it's always good to have a civil conversation about civility. I'm off to the land of dreams. Night all.

 

[anticlimatic]

Wow. If the author of this article is going to go around assuming people mean the exact opposite of what they say, he has much misunderstanding in store for him.

Let's pick this apart before we get to the thank you. What part of "no problem" is the opposite of "it is a problem?" The qualifier before the word "problem," clearly...but what part of it is identical? The word "problem," which I and the author of that article separately pointed out does not need to be there. Why is 'problem' even entering the conversation at all? On tiny exchanges that couldn't be problematic if they wanted to, dropping the word problem totally shifts the entire context of the exchange from a mutually pleasant transaction to there being a problem somewhere, in someone's expectations, that needs addressing. If I say "no elephant," clearly I'm assuming someone thought there might be an elephant in play. Otherwise I'm just pulling random words out of nowhere. No barn. No lamp. No corn tortilla.

Let's pick apart the "thank you" side of the exchange for a moment. When I thank someone, I often explicitly acknowledge the time, effort, perhaps money it took for them to do for me the thing I am thanking them for. I might say, "I really appreciate your taking the time to review my paper. I know how busy you are getting ready for the annual review." A reply of "no problem" reassures me that the person was able to fit this into his schedule with minimal disruption; or perhaps it was a disruption, but a welcome one. A reply of "you're welcome" at best means that, problem or not, the person didn't mind doing it; at worst it is simply an empty phrase, no more meaningful than the "e-i-e-i-o" that follows "Old McDonald had a farm".

This gets to the caveat when "no problem" is actually acceptable: when the situation you are being thanked for clearly could have been a problem for you. If I get woken up at 3am on a work night to give a drunk friend a ride home, and they throw you a "I'm sorry man, thanks so much for the ride, I know it probably sucks to be up right now" then "it's not a problem, honestly" totally flies, because the expectation of problematic inconvienence is already there.

 

[Jaguar]

This article does a good job validating my position on the matter:

A Case Against The Phrase 'No Problem' : 13.7: Cosmos And Culture : NPR

"To my ear, though, "no problem" is absolutely the wrong way to reply to an expression of thanks — for the simple reason that saying "thank you" isn't, or shouldn't be, a veiled way of making an apology.

Saying "no problem" in place of "you're welcome" always strikes me as self-defeating. I thank you for your service, or your gesture, or your generosity, or you kindness. So why are you even mentioning problems?

By saying "no problem," it always seems to me as if what you are really saying is: "It is a problem and I forgive you for it."

If every act of kindness is expected to solicit the embarrassed spirit of apology on the part of the beneficiary, then it's not much of a kindness, is it?

It calls attention to the negative, the problems, the inconveniences, the good deed and, so, it swells the one getting thanked and diminishes the one thanking. It negates the gratitude by transforming into debt and apology."

First of all, if you need someone to validate your opinion it's not worth listening to and your insecurity on the matter is flashing like a neon light. Second, not everyone thinks in such a literal manner as the idiot who wrote the article. If someone says "Love ya, kiddo" it doesn't mean they actually love you any more than "no problem" involves an actual problem.

 

[prplchknz]

this isn't fi vs fe this is old people trying to control young people. so stop with the oh this is fi no it's fucking not or this is fe no because both fe and fi doms have chimed in and said they don't give a fuck. and imo it depends on the context. besides no one here seems to care if i say you're welcome or no problem or you're a dog face.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

@antclimatic
This is what I'm wondering about this topic. For the sake of argument, let's say that you are correct that there are universally understood definitions, that saying 'You're welcome' results in more money for business because it makes everyone happy, etc. What's the next step? If you own or manage a business you can require that all of your employees say it. I once went to a McDonalds where everyone had to say 'Have a McHappy day', and I felt incredibly sorry for those employees, but their boss had the power to require it.

Outside of having authority over employees, what can you do about it? Do you want to try to change society? Do you want validation to feel angry and annoyed at people who say the wrong phrase? What is your goal beyond winning a debate that your idea is correct?

 

[anticlimatic]

First of all, if you need someone to validate your opinion it's not worth listening to and your insecurity on the matter is flashing like a neon light. Second, not everyone thinks in such a literal manner as the idiot who wrote the article. If someone says "Love ya, kiddo" it doesn't mean they actually love you any more than "no problem" involves an actual problem.

Like I said to that other millennial, if you want to continue sounding rude and unprofessional and thoroughly earn your millennial stripes as an entitled sounding navel gazer, knock yourself out with the flippant responses.

My advice regarding the detailed semantics of business transactions is still pretty sound for anyone who wants to grow up and measure their value in utility rather than inherent snowflakery. I just hope the "old people are dumb I'm not listening to their advice!" sentiment doesn't extend as far as other chestnuts, like "look both ways before you cross the road" and "drink lots of water if you're working in the sun all day."

As for my neon sign of insecurity on this issue...umm, what? How is that even possible? Even people like you and a few others who are obviously getting butthurt over the idea that you might not be doing everything right, I don't even see how that could be traced to insecurity. Much less in my own responses here.

 

[anticlimatic]

@antclimatic This is what I'm wondering about this topic. For the sake of argument, let's say that you are correct that there are universally understood definitions, that saying 'You're welcome' results in more money for business because it makes everyone happy, etc. What's the next step? If you own or manage a business you can require that all of your employees say it. I once went to a McDonalds where everyone had to say 'Have a McHappy day', and I felt incredibly sorry for those employees, but their boss had the power to require it. Outside of having authority over employees, what can you do about it? Do you want to try to change society? Do you want validation to feel angry and annoyed at people who say the wrong phrase? What is your goal beyond winning a debate that your idea is correct?

The enlightenment of naive minds for the sake of bettering their own lives.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

The enlightenment of naive minds for the sake of bettering their own lives.

Have you also learned anything in this thread?

Do you think there is value in learning from a flexible linguistic approach? Is there any enlightenment to be found there for you in this discussion? If you are here to teach, do you also learn?

 

[Jaguar]

Like I said to that other millennial, if you want to continue sounding rude and unprofessional and thoroughly earn your millennial stripes as an entitled sounding navel gazer, knock yourself out with the flippant responses.

My advice regarding the detailed semantics of business transactions is still pretty sound for anyone who wants to grow up and measure their value in utility rather than inherent snowflakery. I just hope the "old people are dumb I'm not listening to their advice!" sentiment doesn't extend as far as other chestnuts, like "look both ways before you cross the road" and "drink lots of water if you're working in the sun all day."

As for my neon sign of insecurity on this issue...umm, what? How is that even possible? Even people like you and a few others who are obviously getting butthurt over the idea that you might not be doing everything right, I don't even see how that could be traced to insecurity. Much less in my own responses here.

Your post is irrelevant rubbish and I'm far too old to be a millennial. Your judgment stinks. As usual.

 

[anticlimatic]

Your post is irrelevant rubbish and I'm far too old to be a millennial. Your judgment stinks. As usual.

Thanks to the veil of the internet it's hard to tell who is young, and who just suffers from arrested development. My bad.

 

[anticlimatic]

Have you also learned anything in this thread? Do you think there is value in learning from a flexible linguistic approach? Is there any enlightenment to be found there for you in this discussion? If you are here to teach, do you also learn?

Between you and me, learning is the only thing I'm after. Teaching is just the way I go about gathering reactions to quantify them into more measured approaches in life. So far I've learned that people resent being told what to say, which lines up neatly with what I've learned from the reactions to SJWs and PC culture. I've also learned that job dignity is important to people, and that a lot of people judge how dignified other people feel in their jobs based on their own opinions regardless of how accurate it is. I've learned why so many young people want socialism and universal income as an escape from the humility of bottom tier employment. Among other things.

 

[Red Memories]

The more I see this thread the more I just find myself thinking "what a stupid first world problem"

Honestly though it is somewhat amusing to me to see people extremely nitpick and overanalyzing something like this.
This seems like the kind of conversation you would have at 2 A.M. when tired and lacking inhibition or something.

 

[Shiver]

Like I said to that other millennial, if you want to continue sounding rude and unprofessional and thoroughly earn your millennial stripes as an entitled sounding navel gazer, knock yourself out with the flippant responses.

What is expecting a hollow performance if not entitled? You seem oblivious to how you sound with all of this.

My advice regarding the detailed semantics of business transactions is still pretty sound for anyone who wants to grow up and measure their value in utility rather than inherent snowflakery. I just hope the "old people are dumb I'm not listening to their advice!" sentiment doesn't extend as far as other chestnuts, like "look both ways before you cross the road" and "drink lots of water if you're working in the sun all day."

Here is the point of conflict on which you will not change my opinion. I do not measure or define myself in terms of "value" as you may; I do not hold the same basic qualities as something inanimate with inhuman "utility", such as my desk, my shoes, or indeed any of the objects that a given cashier is running across the scanner for you. In defining yourself in the same terms as such, you diminish or outright deny your own humanity. Your advice does nothing for me, because I seek to retain and express my personhood.

As for my neon sign of insecurity on this issue...umm, what? How is that even possible? Even people like you and a few others who are obviously getting butthurt over the idea that you might not be doing everything right, I don't even see how that could be traced to insecurity. Much less in my own responses here.

The insecurity lies in the fact that you would feel the need to be bothered by the lack of what you already admitted to likely be a false sentiment to begin with. Someone who is not conforming to your exact preference of social behavior is displaying the sense of personhood that I alluded to above. In the context of what you perceive as a business transaction, this threatens you, because you do not truly see the cashiers you interact with as people, do you?

The enlightenment of naive minds for the sake of bettering their own lives.

This sort of pretentious attitude is an excellent example of how not to "enlighten" anyone. Is this what passes for civility in your world?

Between you and me, learning is the only thing I'm after. Teaching is just the way I go about gathering reactions to quantify them into more measured approaches in life. So far I've learned that people resent being told what to say, which lines up neatly with what I've learned from the reactions to SJWs and PC culture. I've also learned that job dignity is important to people, and that a lot of people judge how dignified other people feel in their jobs based on their own opinions regardless of how accurate it is. I've learned why so many young people want socialism and universal income as an escape from the humility of bottom tier employment. Among other things.

Outright rejecting or ignoring any logic that does not validate your preconceived notions is not "learning".

 

[anticlimatic]

What is expecting a hollow performance if not entitled? You seem oblivious to how you sound with all of this. Here is the point of conflict on which you will not change my opinion. I do not measure or define myself in terms of "value" as you may; I do not hold the same basic qualities as something inanimate with inhuman "utility", such as my desk, my shoes, or indeed any of the objects that a given cashier is running across the scanner for you. In defining yourself in the same terms as such, you diminish or outright deny your own humanity. Your advice does nothing for me, because I seek to retain and express my personhood. The insecurity lies in the fact that you would feel the need to be bothered by the lack of what you already admitted to likely be a false sentiment to begin with. Someone who is not conforming to your exact preference of social behavior is displaying the sense of personhood that I alluded to above. In the context of what you perceive as a business transaction, this threatens you, because you do not truly see the cashiers you interact with as people, do you? This sort of pretentious attitude is an excellent example of how not to "enlighten" anyone. Is this what passes for civility in your world? Outright rejecting or ignoring any logic that does not validate your preconceived notions is not "learning".

I'm not bothered by the phrase 'no problem,' other than a sense of feeling sorry for the person saying it. It's about as threatening to me as watching someone drive down the road without wearing a seatbelt.

I also pity people who don't take some kind of pride in their job, regardless of how poorly society judges that job, but unless I have clear and apparent evidence to the contrary I always give them the benefit of the doubt that they do take some kind of pride in it. Before you look down your nose at everyone in the service industry maybe you should make sure your pity for them is welcomed or not.

 

[Shiver]

I'm not bothered by the phrase 'no problem,' other than a sense of feeling sorry for the person saying it. It's about as threatening to me as watching someone drive down the road without wearing a seatbelt.

Clearly you are bothered, else you wouldn't feel the need to attempt to impose your values here?

I also pity people who don't take some kind of pride in their job, regardless of how poorly society judges that job, but unless I have clear and apparent evidence to the contrary I always give them the benefit of the doubt that they do take some kind of pride in it. Before you look down your nose at everyone in the service industry maybe you should make sure your pity for them is welcomed or not.

You're the only one saying anything about pity. Not once in this thread have I implied that I look down on any service worker.

Nice job evading everything else I said, also. Another example of blatantly disregarding anything that doesn't agree with your own ideas on what is "right".