But isn't this selfish, which is exactly what two's are guilty of believing about everyone else? It seems that some two's actually seek out these scenarios.
I don't think it's selfish so much as it's irrational and grossly unfair.
1) If you tell someone upfront that you are going to do something for them, not because you expect payment but because you want to do it for them, then as far as I'm concerned you have forfeited your right to request or demand some sort of payment or compensation. It's unreasonable for me to tell someone I don't expect compensation or that I do this because I want too and then turn right now and demand compensation or recognition.
The exception to this rule for me is if the person forgets even the most basic of manners and forgets to say "Thank you." If I don't even get a thanks of some sort then I'll probably avoid this person in the future. I realize this will sound decidedly SJish of me but social etiquette is important to me and it's basic manners for me to say "Thank you" when someone does something for you.
We all have our pet peeves I suppose
2) Some twos I do think delibrately put themselves into this situations and I'll touch on that in a moment.
It is definitely what turned me off. I have been aware of my mil's way since I first met her. I sensed it. But I also think it is the fault of the person on the receiving end as well, since they apparently don't understand that NOTHING in life is free.
Indeedy.
If a two offers me something, I politely decline, because I know what they are up to. This is why I don't consider them altruistic. I think two's perform altruistic acts on occasion, but overall, I don't consider them altruistic.
This actually goes to the bigger question of whether or not there
is in fact such a thing as altruism but I'll leave that for the Philosophy section of the forum
If I accepted any sort of service from a two, I would feel overly-committed and indebted to them, which is a scenario I generally avoid in life.
You sound just like my ESTP dance partner. She gives me SUCH a hard time when I want to do nice things for her
I think that so much as both parties could communicate ALL expectations at the beginning of any such transaction, confusion and feelings of commitment or being in debt to someone.
So no, I don't think you could put me in that "selfish" pot with everyone else, of receiving with no feelings of being indebted to that person in some way, or believing that I didn't owe them something.
I wasn't suggesting you didn't think those feelings. I just said most people do. Most people probably don't even realize the number of people in their life that they take for granted and that they never stop to thank them or tell them how much they're appreciated. This isn't because they are bad or uncaring people. On the contrary, many are very good natured and hope for the best. I just don't think they realize the needs and wants of the people around them. The problem I think lies in communicating our needs and wants juxtaposed to the social expectations of our current situation in life.
Twos I think are just painfully more aware of this because we desire that sort of recognition considerably more than other types. I think more than other types we desire to be loved, to be acknowledged, to feel needed. How that need expresses itself though, and whether or not it's rational or fair, I think you'd have to do on a case by case basis.
I think two's CAN be taken advantage of, but generally it's those people who are willing to take advantage of someone that are on the receiving end. So that leaves you with an unrealistic perspective of people in general.
As I mentioned above, not always.
I don't think my perspective is unrealistic. If anything, I think I'm more honest about the nature of people than many others are. I like to hope for and think the best of them, but I'm not at all unwilling to acknowledge their faults as well.
Good for you. You are both smarter than my mil. LoL....
The one thing I have noticed about two's, is that some seem to believe from their standpoint that they have been taken advantage of, when nothing beyond the ordinary has happened.
This does often happen.
For example, my mil likes feeding cats in feral cat colonies. Her daughter was going there to feed cats in a feral cat colony, but she moved, so she had to quit feeding them. So my mil (the two), stepped in and started feeding them. She then calls the daughter "selfish" and claims she is "taking advantage of her". The daughter just assumed that the cats would go find another food source, yet, the mother insists that the daughter stuck her with the task of taking over the feeding of the cat colony.
Your mil is being unreasonable.
It is not her daughter's responsibility to care for the well being of the cats. The fact that she chose to do so was entirely her choice. Her daughter can not be said to have had taken advantage of anyone, since they were not her responsibility to begin with and the only duty her daughter "stuck her" with is the duty that you mil decided to take up herself.
She being emotionally manipulative and that sucks.
If the same thing happened to me, I would just assume that the daughter moved, that she couldn't drive that far to feed the cats anymore, and that they would find another source of food. I would not feel taken advantage of, or that the person was selfish for choosing not to feed the cats anymore. My mil (the two) simply doesn't view the situation the same way I do. And that's what I initially meant by someone selling a scenario differently than it is, to me. In reality, imo, the two was not taken advantage of or overworked, unless she chose to be overworked by taking over the feeding of the cats. She actually seeked out this scenario.
I'd agree with you completely.
So my mil is so retarded that she is saying the daughter is "selfish" right in my presence. So I was like, well, you must think I am selfish too lol......
She is being rather stupid about all of this =\
Tinker's post seems spot on - my ESFJ 2(w3?) dad has that problem: he gives and gives, even when you insist ("No, thanks, I'll do it on my own" "But it's easier if I help!") and then goes all, "I do so much for you, and you
dare criticize me?
". I generally try to minimize my needs, which prompts him to "create" new ones ("It's obvious Viridian wants help with his project!" "Er, dad..." "Don't you? Of course you do!"). You can see how that might be a problem... XD
A huge one. I *HATE* when parents and/or loved ones do this as they have NO IDEA how much influence and power they have over the ones they care about and how much they're abusing them when they do this.
On a completely unrelated note, This does however confirm as as outgoing as I can be, I'm definately no ESFJ
ETA:
I realized after posting that I didn't really touch on why it is Twos might put themselves into situations like this and I meant too. I'm going to get slightly personal and I apologize in advance if I go out on a slight tangent but not only is trying to articulate my feelings has always been a challenge for me but I'm also trying to provide a context that will make what I'm saying easier to understand.
*ahem*
It's been in my observation that some Twos, or really anyone given toward a nurturing or care-giving temperament, when they are feeling incredibly neglected or have some other mental or emotional problem, can slip into a pattern of deliberately placing themselves in situations in which they are needed and then becoming incredibly manipulative when they don't receive whatever recognition it is they personally feel they deserve.
Now, why they do this, I don't really know. I suppose it's because they're attempting to assert a sense or feeling of control over something that they don't inherently have any control over. Maybe it's because they lack such a degree of self-worth that they'll take any form of appreciation than achieve, even if it means emotionally wrangling it out of someone.
Whatever the cause, these people seem to become almost like emotional vampires and I think these people are sources of some of the worst horror stories you hear about Type Twos. These people become so self-absorbed in their own needs that they fail to comprehend that not only are they hurting the people around them but that often
they are perpetuating the very thing they are seeking to avoid!
I work a lot right now. That's going to change here in the next couple of weeks but I spend currently the vast majority of my time focused on job responsibilities and/or other obligations and I leave very little time for myself. As a result, over the past several months, I've noticed a growing sense of loneliness, isolation, and even depression in me that honestly scares the crap out of me.
It scares me because during the worst moments I've noticed that I often start to feel very resentful toward my friends, whom I feel (during those moments anyway) that I'm constantly giving to them and that I'm getting not really much of anything in return. This feeling I've read is a common thought-train in people who are feeling incredibly lonely and I've had to work very hard at keeping myself centered and making sure that I try to see things rationally.
Unfortunately though I'm a Feeler so doing something like that is not easy. It's like trying to stop an erupting volcano and mantra's and other zen-like thought process and cognitive reassurances, while helpful, can not change the fact that my needs simply aren't being met and that I need to change things
right now.
Which I am taking steps to do. I'm quitting my 2nd job in a little under two weeks so I'll have more time to refocus on myself and essential rediscover myself as for the past two years. I'll actually have time now to go out and connect with people and establish more meaningful friendships and/or relationships. I'll be able to sleep more and eat better instead of my normal sleeping for 5 hours or so a night and eating primarily on the go (For the record, I don't eat fast food or anything, just a lot of meals that only take a few minutes to prepare. I think it's been two weeks since I've had a genuine home cooked meal). I'll also be able to exercise more and dedicate more time to my Yoga which I've fallen bnehind on
I think with all of these things I will start to stabilize and become a much better person as a result.
In the meantime, I'm just hanging on and enduring and having to reread stuff and re-remind myself that I'm not alone and that I'm not unwanted, even though I've found myself feeling that way often a lot. Things will get better for me though soon
I do not envy you.
