[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ni - What the hell is it?

[Aleksei]

He's actually kind of right.

 

[skylights]

To be specific, Ne is a Pe function, which is an urge to explore and experiment with new ideas and how they play out in the real world. To an ENP reading about how to make gun powder is only half the story, producing some for yourself is the attractive bit.

Seriously..the more I read about Ni, the more it resembles my Fi-process...or at least part of it

They shouldn't overlap at all. It's true that they're both motivated by the assumptions in the internal experience, but they do very different things.

yes, and yes -- Ne + Fi can = processes very similar to Ni. i have a personal theory that functional combinations can slide into other functions' uses. like a gradient. like engaging Ne + Fi in a certain way can help slide an ENFP close to or even right into engaging Ni, even though Ni isn't a very automatic function for us otherwise.

Seriously....using FiNe makes Ni seem rather unimpressive to me. The demi-god status of it 'round these parts makes me roll my eyes. I like the simple descriptions, as there's no pretense of mystery or superiority. They actually make sense & ring true to me because of it. Of course, I hate having my Fi oversimplified, so I can understand why Ni-doms become all poetic in describing their precious thought process.

Ni is god-tier. it is The Force. how dare you compare it to lowly Fi.

Taking unconnected data and forming theories out of them is a very Ne skill.

seconded

 

[Coriolis]

Ni is an unwavering singular vision - that singular vision can be awesome and correct, or it can be paranoid or even batshit insane.

Ni is also a penetrating intuitive evaluation of the person or situation. It can be scarily spot on - like wow! - or bizarrely out of left field and ...not.

It's a kind of creativity and imagination that springs from within - I think one of the reasons I recognize myself as an Ne user is because I collect things to make something new, like a collage. Or I see patterns in divergent things or ideas. On the other hand, I think Ni users seem to come up with things that seem PURELY IMAGINATIVE. Like sometimes I feel like Ni users are more creative than me, because I can recognize how I've collected things from other sources and pieced them together into something new. But their creativity can at least appear to be...singularly unique...because it comes from their inner intuition instead of extroverted intuition.

At least that's my clunky interpretation.

It is a decent interpretation. I would add that, if Ni is a singular focused vision, Ne offers a broad, multifaceted vision. Also, the "hit-or-miss" nature of Ni insights can be mitigated significantly by judicious application of one's auxiliary function. Calibrated in this way, Ni can become quite reliable. Finally, I'm not sure the collage analogy makes a clear distinction between Ne and Ni. As an Ni-dom, I make "collages", too, but usually I'm fitting random items into a framework or design I visualized beforehand. At the same time, running across an exceptional piece can cause me to reorient the entire design, even if that piece must be excluded in the end. Perhaps just different ways of making collages.

So I imagine Ni is some reverse of that....finding inspiration in some internal source, and it tends to make the individual appear more focused and composed. I think the confluence (Ni) vs. branching out (Ne) metaphor works pretty well. There is the creepy tendency of Ni people to shift perspective on an external issue and accept it in its new light, without any actual change except how it is viewed. This is disturbing sometimes and can seem delusional. Ne people will instead see many possible ways to explain something and choose that which suits their inner logic/ideals, and that can make them seem delusional.

I have heard people comment on the highlighted. The distinction they often make is that, while Ne may be crazy and off the wall, Ni is just plain weird/creepy.

What? No; Ne is about finding hidden patterns. Taking unconnected data and forming theories out of them is a very Ne skill.

Conversely, taking unconnected data and fitting them into an existing theory is Ni.

 

[rav3n]

Ne

Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.

Ni

Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/introvertedintuiting.html

If you regularly experience Ni, you'll know it since it sometimes hits like a 2x4. It's an intuitive understanding of any concept, a shifting of perception. Not all the blanks need to be filled in to suddenly have concepts make sense.

Ne from observations of Ne doms and auxs, appears to me to be more linear. It needs to have all the blanks filled in before it understands the concept.

 

[skylights]

Ne from observations of Ne doms and auxs [...] needs to have all the blanks filled in before it understands the concept.

yeah, that's not true at all :/

(note - does anyone see where the frustration is coming in here? it's like "Ne is dumber than Ni" implications running rampant. just like S and N. IT GETS OLD. your dom function isn't better than anyone else's. i realize that not all of you think this and metaphor that may not have been your intent at all. but for anyone who does think that, get over it. it's like idiotic function racism.)

what i like best to understand a concept is a big picture. from there, it's all obvious. but if someone gives me a bunch of details it's a pain in the ass because i have to go about assembling my own big picture so then i can understand how the details fit in. it takes longer.

i guess i see what you mean about linear in terms of more different threads and less looping around on the same subject, but Ne ends up reconnecting ideas eventually. it'll just take a little longer to make the loops Ni does, because it'll hit on a bunch of other things first. Ne can create paradigm shifts too, but mostly because you touch another theory and incorporate it, and another and incorporate it, and eventually you see things in a totally different light. it's not linear, really, but it's more of an exploratory process than Ni is. though, what Ne loses in efficiency (lack of immediate eureka), it gains in exposure to huge amounts of information.

 

[rav3n]

yeah, that's not true at all :/

what i like best to understand a concept is a big picture. from there, it's all obvious. but if someone gives me a bunch of details it's a pain in the ass because i have to go about assembling my own big picture so then i can understand how the details fit in. it takes longer.

i guess i see what you mean about linear in terms of more different threads and less looping around on the same subject, but Ne ends up reconnecting ideas eventually. it'll just take a little longer to make the loops Ni does, because it'll hit on a bunch of other things first.

Ni is really crazy. Very much lightening bolts of realisation. You look at something, turn it around a bit, move a few working parts and kaboom, its use comes out of nowhere and in no particular order.

Individuals with Ne appear to ask a lot more questions to get the fine detail so every cog is in place, has a reason for why it's in place, then the entire concept makes more sense.

 

[OrangeAppled]

yeah, that's not true at all :/

what i like best to understand a concept is a big picture. from there, it's all obvious. but if someone gives me a bunch of details it's a pain in the ass because i have to go about assembling my own big picture so then i can understand how the details fit in. it takes longer.

i guess i see what you mean about linear in terms of more different threads and less looping around on the same subject, but Ne ends up reconnecting ideas eventually. it'll just take a little longer to make the loops Ni does, because it'll hit on a bunch of other things first. Ne can create paradigm shifts too, but mostly because you touch another theory and incorporate it, and another and incorporate it, and eventually you see things in a totally different light. it's not linear, really, but it's more of an exploratory process than Ni is. though, what Ne loses in efficiency (lack of immediate eureka), it gains in exposure to huge amounts of information.

Agree....I don't see Ne as linear. More like water drop rings, expanding outward, and whatever it touches forms some kind of web-like connections. It's not one foot in front of the other... The overview is needed first.

 

[redacted]

Agree....I don't see Ne as linear. More like water drop rings, expanding outward, and whatever it touches forms some kind of web-like connections. It's not one foot in front of the other... The overview is needed first.

No no, the whole point is that the overview ISN'T needed for Ne. Ne makes connections as soon as it has data, way before total understanding is achieved. Ni, on the other hand, can't even make sense of data unless they've molded it into their internal framework -- and at that point they'll have some really deep connections. Ne makes connections about ALL data. Ni only makes connections that are relevant to the self --- it will ignore all sorts of stuff.

 

[Aleksei]

I actually agree with Evan here (halfway, anyway... what you're describing sounds more like Ji rather than Ni). Needing a pre-digested overview or else needing to piece the whole picture together before coming to a conclusion is more like Si + Ne interplay.

 

[redacted]

I actually agree with Evan here (halfway, anyway... what you're describing sounds more like Ji rather than Ni). Needing a pre-digested overview or else needing to piece the whole picture together before coming to a conclusion is more like Si + Ne interplay.

It's only Ji if it's conscious. I'm saying Ni literally doesn't even see new environmental data unless it relates to the internal standard. Conversely, Ne can't stop itself from noticing new environmental data, not even to make further connections about what's already known.

 

[Aleksei]

It's only Ji if it's conscious.

You're over-relying on this unconscious mind theory of yours. It's probably correct, but useless because we don't really know what the hell is going on in our unconscious. It's better to focus on what that unconscious processing looks like to our conscious mind.

 

[Arclight]

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/introvertedintuiting.html

If you regularly experience Ni, you'll know it since it sometimes hits like a 2x4. It's an intuitive understanding of any concept, a shifting of perception. Not all the blanks need to be filled in to suddenly have concepts make sense.

Ne from observations of Ne doms and auxs, appears to me to be more linear. It needs to have all the blanks filled in before it understands the concept.

Thank you.. I am pretty sure that is what I said in the beginning of this thread. That is what my arrow diagrams showed.

I will also agree.. that if you really have to ask what Ni is.. then you don't use it very well.. Its catharsis. It is perspective shifting. You can literally transform reality as you know it. I am in counseling and this is the pitfall of Intuitive feeling. It can warp reality in a bad way. If used correctly the Ni user can envision and transform his/her own future. Simply by perceiving how he/she will needs or wants to be.

It's not magic or voodoo.. It's just hindsight,insight and foresight working in simultaneous conjunction to solve problems that you aren't even aware exist until they form.. That's your Ah Ha!! moment .
Sometimes those ah ha moments totally miss the mark..

 

[Jaguar]

if you really have to ask what Ni is.. then you don't use it very well..

Exactly.

 

[Aleksei]

I will also agree.. that if you really have to ask what Ni is.. then you don't use it very well..

Woah... I actually agree with you on something! Ni is easily the most difficult function to understand without actually experiencing it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I actually agree with Evan here (halfway, anyway... what you're describing sounds more like Ji rather than Ni). Needing a pre-digested overview or else needing to piece the whole picture together before coming to a conclusion is more like Si + Ne interplay.

The conclusion IS the whole picture. You see it in whole form at once, not piecing it together. That's why too many details bog me down. My mind fills in the details for me automatically. It's like a few random dots floating out there are all that is needed for me to connect a picture, and it's more of a recognizing than a conscious effort to connect them. Of course, I always see many ways to connect those dots, often simultaneously, so that several pictures seem possible, then I may want details so I can eliminate some of them.

I always thought, according to Jung, that Ji stemmed from the unconscious mind and Pi from the subconscious, but Ji is rational as it reasons (which is a conscious process), where as Pi just "sees", which is rather automatic, as it is awareness in itself (so maybe it's not aware of itself, it just is...?).

 

[rav3n]

Thank you.. I am pretty sure that is what I said in the beginning of this thread. That is what my arrow diagrams showed.

I will also agree.. that if you really have to ask what Ni is.. then you don't use it very well.. Its catharsis. It is perspective shifting. You can literally transform reality as you know it. I am in counseling and this is the pitfall of Intuitive feeling. It can warp reality in a bad way. If used correctly the Ni user can envision and transform his/her own future. Simply by perceiving how he/she will needs or wants to be.

It's not magic or voodoo.. It's just hindsight,insight and foresight working in simultaneous conjunction to solve problems that you aren't even aware exist until they form.. That's your Ah Ha!! moment .
Sometimes those ah ha moments totally miss the mark..

Yes, it works in mysterious ways!

To try to explain how it arrives at those conclusions is almost impossible, at least for me. But when you test it, it works. It's not foolproof though, so it's best to stress test it to ensure for effectiveness and accuracy, when it really matters.

 

[Southern Kross]

Interesting discussion.

yes, and yes -- Ne + Fi can = processes very similar to Ni. i have a personal theory that functional combinations can slide into other functions' uses. like a gradient. like engaging Ne + Fi in a certain way can help slide an ENFP close to or even right into engaging Ni, even though Ni isn't a very automatic function for us otherwise.

I think so too

How about this for a definition then:

Ni responds to, interprets and deciphers ideas
Ne pursues, explores and generates ideas

or alternatively:

Ni: "The answers are in there. I just have to uncover them"
Ne: "The answers are out there. I just have to seek them out"

 

[skylights]

No no, the whole point is that the overview ISN'T needed for Ne. Ne makes connections as soon as it has data, way before total understanding is achieved. Ni, on the other hand, can't even make sense of data unless they've molded it into their internal framework -- and at that point they'll have some really deep connections. Ne makes connections about ALL data. Ni only makes connections that are relevant to the self --- it will ignore all sorts of stuff.

i think that Ne's eventual goal is to create an overview, though. a huge ToE, if you will. it's always theory-structuring, and each part of the whole should have some of the pattern apparent in it. the more information we have, the better we understand the theory. theoretically, if we had all the information, we would understand everything.

Ni is really crazy. Very much lightening bolts of realisation. You look at something, turn it around a bit, move a few working parts and kaboom, its use comes out of nowhere and in no particular order.

Individuals with Ne appear to ask a lot more questions to get the fine detail so every cog is in place, has a reason for why it's in place, then the entire concept makes more sense.

continued info gathering for Ne is not about fine detail as much as it's about refining the theory. it's not like cogs - it's not filling things in that are missing but coherent - it's making sure the big picture isn't incoherent, and adjusting it if it is.

i actually do a fair bit of Ni'ing myself, which i hadn't realized until i started better understanding the function - i get those flash moments occasionally, and they're a HUGE help in making decisions - but in any case, i don't think Ne is incredibly divorced from Ni, just like Fi and Fe share many similarities. Ne and Ni both involve lots of data jumping and fill-in-the-blanks. they both sacrifice detail for the sake of speed and size. we have to remember that they're the same function, just with different attitudes... the same lens, but looking through opposite ends of the microscope...

Ni: "The answers are in there. I just have to uncover them"
Ne: "The answers are out there. I just have to seek them out"

i like this.

though don't only Judging functions technically generate information? i thought Perceiving functions... well... Perceived

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

though don't only Judging functions technically generate information? i thought Perceiving functions... well... Perceived

I don't think that's QUITE the case, because then, really, wouldn't the only P function be Se, as it simply takes in your surroundings? The P functions can generate ideas and organise information, but J functions make judgements and decisions based on what you have, whether it's from your own mind or the outside world, the past or the present, etc.

 

[Nicodemus]

Today, someone said: "For next week, you have to read the small/short Russell... text [den kleinen Russell-Text]." Virtually at the same time, I thought of Bertrand Russell's text and conceived in my head the image of a small Jack Russell terrier, ready to be read.

Is that Ni, Ne or something utterly unrelated?