MBTI type and belief in god

[Mole]

Personal Insults and Banning

I think you're projecting. You didn't "question" my beliefs, you made the blanket statement that people of my persuasion deny reality. That's hardly a legitimate intellectual critique. It's equivalent to just saying "you're delusional." Which is an insult. Whereas, instead of making a claim about you, like you are out of touch with reality, I categorized your claim as bigoted. I don't have a problem with people raising legitimate objections to my opinions. I do feel insulted when you label a whole spiritual group of which I am a part as being out of touch with reality. And I didn't call you ignorant, I asked you whether you had studied the matter. If you haven't, meaning if you haven't studied Wicca or paganism or the beliefs of the Celts, then you may not be generally ignorant, but you lack enough information about the issue to have a valid opinion (much less make a judgment).

The facts of life on Typology Central are that we are allowed to criticise beliefs or persuasions, and in particular we are allowed to criticise Wicca and Paganism. However we are not allowed to insult individuals. We are not allowed to make personal insults.

You have insulted me personally and continue to insult me personally and seem to think it is allowed here. Well, personal insults are not allowed on Typology Central and may lead to banning.

 

[sprinkles]

The facts of life on Typology Central are that we are allowed to criticise beliefs or persuasions, and in particular we are allowed to criticise Wicca and Paganism. However we are not allowed to insult individuals. We are not allowed to make personal insults.

You have insulted me personally and continue to insult me personally and seem to think it is allowed here. Well, personal insults are not allowed on Typology Central and may lead to banning.

Group/belief critique should be done mindfully, otherwise it circumvents the personal insult rule. You have to remember that groups are made of individuals so it's no problem to do broad shot insults to the group when you actually have particular targets in mind, and then go run behind the "we're allowed to criticize beliefs" rule.

It's better to explain yourself and/or apologize than result to rules lawyering.

 

[greenfairy]

The facts of life on Typology Central are that we are allowed to criticise beliefs or persuasions, and in particular we are allowed to criticise Wicca and Paganism. However we are not allowed to insult individuals. We are not allowed to make personal insults.

You have insulted me personally and continue to insult me personally and seem to think it is allowed here. Well, personal insults are not allowed on Typology Central and may lead to banning.

Saying you have a bigoted opinion is not the same as saying you are a bigoted person. Saying you are uninformed is not saying you are ignorant. You were the one who insulted me. Just think a little. I stand by everything I said. If they ban me for it, they're being as unreasonable as you are. Regardless of whether your opinion can be judged as bigoted, it's uninformed and insulting. You "criticized" my opinion and I "criticized" yours. Deal with it.

I find it interesting that several people on here have found it acceptable to call me irrational and illogical, but criticizing someone's opinion by insinuating bigotry is unacceptable. Maybe I should start reporting some posts.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I find it interesting that several people on here have found it acceptable to call me irrational and illogical, but criticizing someone's opinion by insinuating bigotry is unacceptable. Maybe I should start reporting some posts.

Taddle taling is for SJs. Bad NF! Are you going to report me now too?

 

[Mole]

All I can do is reiterate that it is acceptable to here to criticise institutions, beliefs and persuasions but it is not acceptable to make personal insults.

It is always sad to see someone banned for making personal insults but sometimes it is necessary.

 

[Salomé]

I find it interesting that several people on here have found it acceptable to call me irrational and illogical, but criticizing someone's opinion by insinuating bigotry is unacceptable.

Almost all criticism is unacceptable to the target, at least initially.

You have made some irrational / illogical statements in the past. And the criticism you received has helped you to understand, for example, that you are not NT and were deluded to believe you were. Perhaps, in time, you will find the same thing to be true of some of your other beliefs?
Always best to look at criticism in a constructive light.

 

[greenfairy]

Taddle taling is for SJs. Bad NF! Are you going to report me now too?

No, I don't really care enough to get my panties in a wad. Just wondering what's commonly regarded as unacceptable. And pointing out hypocrisy.

Almost all criticism is unacceptable to the target, at least initially.

Only to immature people who can't handle it, or to people who can't distinguish between what is legitimate and what is harassment.

You have made some irrational / illogical statements in the past.

Subjective. I welcome correction of factual errors, but value assessments and holistic assessments of my mind tend to be less welcome. And which I tend to not give to others.

And the criticism you received has helped you to understand, for example, that you are not NT and were deluded to believe you were.

And I'm SO much happier now...

Actually I do like being able to see myself in INFJ, but the path to get there was really more trouble than it was worth in a lot of ways. People could have just given me information and left the assumptions and judgments out of it, and dispensed with the arguing. And I haven't entirely made up my mind.

Perhaps, in time, you will find the same thing to be true of some of your other beliefs?
Always best to look at criticism in a constructive light.

I'm sure I'll know what's true sooner or later.

Since you value criticism so much, how do you feel about receiving it? In my experience you haven't liked it too much.

Here's some. For someone who claims to not believe typology has validity, you certainly seem to put a lot of importance in it in evaluating other people. It's rather inconsistent.

 

[Coriolis]

And the Romantic Movement is a denial of reality based on evidence and reason. Just as being a 'Celtic Wiccan' is a denial of reality today.

In what way does Celtic Wiccan belief deny reality? Exactly what aspects of reality do you think it denies?

 

[Coriolis]

Here, finally, the information you requested. You can find more details of pagan beliefs and practices, posted by myself and other members, on Amargith's Ask a Pagan thread.

The condensed version is I believe that deity encompasses both male, female, and all other human distinctions (and probably more). All the world's religions tap into some aspect of that, though none has the whole answer (as with the blind men and the elephant). The many discrete gods and goddesses of the various pantheons, even the God of the Bible and Quran, are just aspects of a single divine entity. One or another aspect of that entity can resonate with each of us at various times of our lives, as our needs and circumstances require.

I don't claim to know exactly what deity is, and doubt anyone else who claims to have this knowledge. I think part of it, a significant part, is an energy that permeates the universe, connecting all of us, and into which we can tap. Whether we see this as invoking the God or Goddess in some aspect, or simply reaching into our inner selves for the knowledge or strength we need, it makes no difference because it is all essentially the same. I try to follow a "golden rule"-like principle of doing harm to none (as much as possible, because doing no harm ever is impossible), while pursuing my own passions, talents, even destiny as some express it. This is summed up in the Wiccan rede: "if it harm none, do as you will". "None" is interpreted very broadly, and includes the environment, the earth, and also myself.

I do not believe that anyone can intercede for me with the divine, or give me the answers for my life. I can learn from the wisdom, insights, and experiences of others, but I must walk my path myself. My spirituality is my responsibility, not anyone else's. Most Pagans I know believe in some sort of afterlife; many in reincarnation. I remain undecided about much of this, but do believe that there is some part of us that continues after death of the body.

Paganism is often called a religion of practice rather than faith, in that we can come together to share a common form or method of worship, while retaining significant individuality of belief and interpretation. I see understanding the creation as one of the best ways to learn about the creator, and enjoy worship that engages the various senses. Perhaps this is just a way to go beyond my usual focus on words, thoughts, and technical explanations. There is much more to be understood in life.

 

[Mole]

In what way does Celtic Wiccan belief deny reality? Exactly what aspects of reality do you think it denies?

The work of children is play. And the purpose of play is to learn the difference between imagination and reality.

So New Age Celtic Wiccan belief fails to see the difference between imagination and reality.

 

[Mole]

Here, finally, the information you requested. You can find more details of pagan beliefs and practices, posted by myself and other members, on Amargith's Ask a Pagan thread.

The condensed version is I believe that deity encompasses both male, female, and all other human distinctions (and probably more). All the world's religions tap into some aspect of that, though none has the whole answer (as with the blind men and the elephant). The many discrete gods and goddesses of the various pantheons, even the God of the Bible and Quran, are just aspects of a single divine entity. One or another aspect of that entity can resonate with each of us at various times of our lives, as our needs and circumstances require.

I don't claim to know exactly what deity is, and doubt anyone else who claims to have this knowledge. I think part of it, a significant part, is an energy that permeates the universe, connecting all of us, and into which we can tap. Whether we see this as invoking the God or Goddess in some aspect, or simply reaching into our inner selves for the knowledge or strength we need, it makes no difference because it is all essentially the same. I try to follow a "golden rule"-like principle of doing harm to none (as much as possible, because doing no harm ever is impossible), while pursuing my own passions, talents, even destiny as some express it. This is summed up in the Wiccan rede: "if it harm none, do as you will". "None" is interpreted very broadly, and includes the environment, the earth, and also myself.

I do not believe that anyone can intercede for me with the divine, or give me the answers for my life. I can learn from the wisdom, insights, and experiences of others, but I must walk my path myself. My spirituality is my responsibility, not anyone else's. Most Pagans I know believe in some sort of afterlife; many in reincarnation. I remain undecided about much of this, but do believe that there is some part of us that continues after death of the body.

Paganism is often called a religion of practice rather than faith, in that we can come together to share a common form or method of worship, while retaining significant individuality of belief and interpretation. I see understanding the creation as one of the best ways to learn about the creator, and enjoy worship that engages the various senses. Perhaps this is just a way to go beyond my usual focus on words, thoughts, and technical explanations. There is much more to be understood in life.

The word 'pagan' is pejorative. And it is pejorative because it was applied to the competing beliefs of Ancient Greece by the new religion of Christianity.

So 'pagan' refers to the Ancient Greek religion.

And so Ancient Druidic or Wiccan religion is more accurately described as 'tribal'.

The Ancient Greeks were sophisticated City States and Ancient Greek religion reflected this.

The Ancient Greeks had advanced beyond mere tribalism to form City States whose philosophy forms the basis of Western Civilization.

And New Age paganism today is merely a Romantic reaction to the Enlightenment and is no more than fatuous.

 

[Coriolis]

The work of children is play. And the purpose of play is to learn the difference between imagination and reality.

So New Age Celtic Wiccan belief fails to see the difference between imagination and reality.

Most Pagans I know see this distinction much more readily than our neighbors following more mainstream religions. We see the Christ story as metaphor, like the myths of old. This doesn't mean the myths are untrue, just that they have a different truth. Most people pay too little regard to the power of the imagination, and go without its many benefits needlessly.

The word 'pagan' is pejorative. And it is pejorative because it was applied to the competing beliefs of Ancient Greece by the new religion of Christianity.

So 'pagan' refers to the Ancient Greek religion.

And so Ancient Druidic or Wiccan religion is more accurately described as 'tribal'.

The Ancient Greeks were sophisticated City States and Ancient Greek religion reflected this.

The Ancient Greeks had advanced beyond mere tribalism to form City States whose philosophy forms the basis of Western Civilization.

And New Age paganism today is merely a Romantic reaction to the Enlightenment and is no more than fatuous.

The word Pagan is as perjorative as the word witch, or the word geek. It tends to be perjorative in the mouths of people who have little respect for the designated group. Pagans often use it since it gives solidarity to a diverse spectrum of beliefs that share some important common features, much as Episcopalians, Methodists, Baptists and other denominations all call themselves Christian.

Pagan originally meant "country dweller", since Christianity spread first in cities, and the country folk were often the last to retain their original religions. I suppose its original derogatory connotation was "country bumpkin", much as we say today. Yes, ancient Pagan religions were tribal, as was originally even Judaism. In the modern era, this tribalism, too, is often metaphor. We practice in locales that do not always share the climate or geography of the myths, and learn to honor the reality of our present environs alongside the holly berries and spring blossoms of our imaginations.

 

[pastabomber]

I am an INFJ atheist~

Yeah, that is kinda rare.

I think SJ's in particular are more likely to be religious than other types though I do think that ISTJ might be the least religious SJ type.

 

[Mole]

I am an INFJ atheist~

To say you are an INFJ atheist is the same as saying you are a Mongolian physicist, or a Chilean physicist or a French physicist.

And just as there is only physics and not Mongolian, Chilean or French physics, so there is only atheism.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Hey [MENTION=3325]Victor[/MENTION] what about a Pantheistic Atheist, you know, one who takes spiritual pride in the world despite the absent divine; what about an atheist into cosmology that makes a meaning out of the world without god - they build their own internal maps of reality and hold to no religious dogma? Surely that 'subtype' of the Atheist category would be more powerful than an Atheist who has no sense of meaning.

 

[Antimony]

Are NT's usually atheist?
Are NF's usually theists?
Are there any NT's who believe in god?
Are there any NF's who don't believe in god?
I have zero spirituality. Nil. Nada.

I'm completely spiritual and am agnostic. Well, guess it depends on how you define spiritual. I meditate at least.

Atheism is as or more irrational than the belief in a god.

 

[Lark]

I'm completely spiritual and am agnostic. Well, guess it depends on how you define spiritual. I meditate at least.

Atheism is as or more irrational than the belief in a god.

I'm inclined to agree but then there's a whole question as to what belief in anything means, if you say you believed in America for instance, does it mean you're confident that the reports that it is there are true or do you mean that you're a national patriot or that you've confidence in America as an idea or representative of ideals.

 

[Mole]

Pan

Hey [MENTION=3325]Victor[/MENTION] what about a Pantheistic Atheist, you know, one who takes spiritual pride in the world despite the absent divine; what about an atheist into cosmology that makes a meaning out of the world without god - they build their own internal maps of reality and hold to no religious dogma? Surely that 'subtype' of the Atheist category would be more powerful than an Atheist who has no sense of meaning.

I myself have met Pan, the protector of animals, at dawn just above the weir. You may meet the Piper at the Gates of Dawn by clicking on - http://www.online-literature.com/grahame/windwillows/7/

[MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION]

 

[Antimony]

I'm inclined to agree but then there's a whole question as to what belief in anything means, if you say you believed in America for instance, does it mean you're confident that the reports that it is there are true or do you mean that you're a national patriot or that you've confidence in America as an idea or representative of ideals.

Well, I'm referring more to faith than anything. I suppose faith without fact is more irrational, and some faiths are more rational than others. I definitely don't "believe" in America- I believe in a few representatives...sort of. I guess we could discuss semantics more in depth.

As a note, I learned (not sure how true it is) that certain people have an inherent chemical/physical function that is/occurs in their brain that allows them to have faith or lack the ability to "feel" the presence of God.

 

[Coriolis]

if you say you believed in America for instance, does it mean you're confident that the reports that it is there are true

This is accepting evidence for its existence. Belief does not require evidence.

or do you mean that you're a national patriot or that you've confidence in America as an idea or representative of ideals.

This is more like trusting America, as you would trust a friend or employer (to do the right thing, to work for your/your groups best interests, to be honorable, etc.) I see belief as more properly applied to values and abstract concepts than to people or institutions. To go with the example above, one might then believe in American values - liberty, fundamental equality, even rugged individualism - whatever you saw those to be. In this case, belief is acceptance of a subjective ideal as having worth and value.