MBTI, Authority and Control

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

oh, hello honoR, it's good to see yoU on this Nice thread, WHat are your opInions on this LovEly thread. YOU should definitely voiCe AN opinion.
(capitals)

Hehe.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

C'mon dear Honor, you have the revolutionary lexicographer, Noah Webster, on one shoulder, and the mass propagandist, Edward Bernays, on the other.

Atlas shrugged and the world collapsed, but if you refrain from shrugging, America will remain safe for the brave and the free.

Bravery is an illusion by the impulsive and sycophantic power-mongers
Freedom is an illusion by the government and the idealists.
True Bravery is merely a dosage of over-confidence mixed with smaller dosages of fame-seeking and diluted altruism.
True Freedom is merely the ending of life, when all obligations and restrictions are ended.

 

[five sounds]

Edward Bernays was an American propagandist. He was one of the most important Americans of the 20th century, yet you never learn about him in class.

Edward Bernays wrote the book called Propaganda and he was employed by the USA Government and top USA companies to teach them the techniques of mass propaganda.

Edward Bernays was enormously successful and gave mass control to the USA Government and USA business and enriched himself.

But of course the myth is that America is the land of the brave and the home of the free, and not the land of mass propaganda - heaven fobid!

everybody knows better now. or i like to think most people do. it's all become so overt. so audaciously capitalistic. it's glaring.

that said, Americans are most definitely victimized and manipulated by propaganda. i hardly think MBTI is among its strongest tools.

i wish i knew more about the way the US military and businesses used MBTI. again, whoever wants to control will use whatever they can to do it. are you implying that they deny employment to people scoring as unfavorable types? give them lower-paying positions or deny them promotion? i've never had to take an MBTI test for a job, but i know people who have had to take other weird personality questionnaires when applying for a job. questions about how easily angered you are, how you deal with conflict, etc. i feel squeamish about that idea too honestly.

i don't doubt that MBTI has been abused. i also don't doubt that it's been used to foster harmony and understanding within and among people.
according to wikipedia: "The indicator is frequently used in the areas of pedagogy, career counseling, team building, group dynamics, professional development, marketing, family business, leadership training, executive coaching, life coaching, personal development and marriage counseling"

as it stands, it appears that some ladies developed the idea to try to see what kinds of military jobs might be suitable for them. they developed the test further, and after its publication, it became free to be used by whomever chose to pick it up. including slimy corporations and individuals trying to get along.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

Bravery is an illusion by the impulsive and sycophantic power-mongers
Freedom is an illusion by the government and the idealists.
True Bravery is merely a dosage of over-confidence mixed with smaller dosages of fame-seeking and diluted altruism.
True Freedom is merely the ending of life, when all obligations and restrictions are ended.

Agreed.

 

[Honor]

I suspect that those with controlling or authoritarian parents are attracted to mbti.

For mbti provides an authority and a way of controlling ourselves.

So mbti is a substitute for our controlling parents.

I'm sure that this is true in some cases, but if you're suggesting that this is a general pattern, then I think that unfortunately you're unlikely to be correct. As for what motivates people to be interested in MBTI, I can suggest a variety of more predictive factors. I still believe that personality type itself is a decently good indicator of whether a person will be interested in MBTI. I think NFs, for example, are more likely to be interested in personality psychology and critiques of society not only because they tend to be more driven by identity but also because some types of NFs are especially likely to feel maladjusted to modern day society. If you're made aware by how dysfunctional something is by your own life experiences, you're more likely to believe that issue is important, worthy of your attention, and worthy of lengthy consideration IMO. I do think that NTs are likely to be interested in MBTI because it provides them with a model of understanding otherwise bizarre behavior and perhaps gives them a greater sense of control.

On the other hand, those with helping parents, parents who help their children achieve their life goals, produce empathic and creative personalities.

And the empathic and creative are not attracted to the control of mbti.

I think the opposite is more likely to be true.

 

[Honor]

oh, hello honoR, it's good to see yoU on this Nice thread, WHat are your opInions on this LovEly thread. YOU should definitely voiCe AN opinion.
(capitals)

Your wish is my command.

 

[Hypatia]

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]

At what level can we expect norms not to enforce norms?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Control isn't necessarily a bad thing. Is a man with no control of his bladder a hero?

I also notice that people who claim to be against control just seem to be upset about occasions when they don't get to control things.

 

[reckful]

I suspect that those with controlling or authoritarian parents are attracted to mbti.

For mbti provides an authority and a way of controlling ourselves.

So mbti is a substitute for our controlling parents.

On the other hand, those with helping parents, parents who help their children achieve their life goals, produce empathic and creative personalities.

And the empathic and creative are not attracted to the control of mbti.

Here are June 2013 membership stats for PersonalityCafe:

INFP 3723 0.21
INFJ 2580 0.15
INTP 2228 0.13
INTJ 1876 0.11
ENFP 1352 0.08
ENTP 1112 0.06
ENFJ 514 0.03
ISTP 527 0.03
ISFP 506 0.03
ISTJ 437 0.02
ENTJ 401 0.02
ISFJ 314 0.02
ESTP 159 0.01
ESFJ 102 0.01
ESFP 117 0.01
ESTJ 97 0.01

And here are August 2012 membership stats (percentages) for TypologyCentral:

INTP 17
INFP 17
INFJ 16
INTJ 12
ENFP 10
ENTP 8
ISTP 4
ENFJ 3
ENTJ 3
ISFP 3
ISTJ 2
ISFJ 1
ESTP 1
ESFP 1
ESTJ 1
ESFJ 1

A-a-and, statistically speaking, I believe INFP is the type most likely to be a creative artist, and I'd also say the INFs are relatively empathic types.

So it appears that, contrary to your contention that "the empathic and creative" tend not to be attracted to the MBTI, it appears more likely that the empathic and creative types are disproportionately attracted to the MBTI.

Well, the USA military uses mbti to take advantage of recruits.

And mbti was invented to induct women into the USA war machine in WW II.

And USA business uses mbti to take advantage of employees.

Wow, Mole. Is there any internet forum meme too silly for you to take seriously?

Katharine Briggs was working on a typology of her own — not with any business purpose in mind, as I understand it — and discovered Psychological Types soon after the English translation came out, and later published two articles about Psychological Types in The New Republic. The Myers-Briggs typology was basically just a family hobby for the next 20 years or so, until the outbreak of World War II prompted Isabel Myers (Briggs' daughter) to start work on an MBTI test because — as described in the introduction to Gifts Differing — "the suffering and tragedies of the war stirred Myers's desire to do something that might help peoples understand each other and avoid destructive conflicts."

In addition, as noted on a CAPT website, Myers "noticed many people taking jobs out of patriotism, but hating the tasks that went against their grain instead of using their gifts." So, to the extent that there was any job-placement aim involved, it was more the employees' concerns Myers had in mind, not the employers'. It's a moot point, though, because, although she offered up an early version of the MBTI for that purpose, the military told her thanks but no, thanks.

Myers — an INFP and, as I understand it, quite an empathic woman — proceeded to work on the MBTI for thirty more years, pretty much as a labor of love and notwithstanding a distinct lack of acceptance or encouragement from the mainstream psychological establishment. Here's how she described her aims in Gifts Differing:

Since [1942] the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator has yielded a wide range of information about the practical bearings of type. The implications of the theory, however, go beyond statistics and can be expressed only in human terms. ... In this material I hope parents, teachers, students, counselors, clinicians, clergy — and all others who are concerned with the realization of human potential — may find a rationale for many of the personality differences they encounter in their work or must deal with in their private lives. ...

Whatever the circumstances of your life, whatever your personal ties, work, and responsibilities, the understanding of type can make your perceptions clearer, your judgments sounder, and your life closer to your heart's desire.

And as for current corporate use of the MBTI, your posts seem to imply that the MBTI is being widely used by employers in connection with hiring, firing, job placement and/or promotions. If that's what you think, FYI, the official MBTI folks have made it clear they consider those to be inappropriate and unethical uses of the MBTI, and also consider it unethical to even require an employee to take the MBTI in the first place. As they explain here:

It is unethical and in many cases illegal to require job applicants to take the Indicator if the results will be used to screen out applicants. The administrator should not counsel a person to, or away from, a particular career, personal relationship or activity based solely upon type information.

And, as this official MBTI site explains:

Employers use the Myers-Briggs tool for these purposes:

• Training and development of employees and managers
• Improving teamwork
• Coaching and developing others
• Improving communication
• Resolving conflicts
• Understanding personal styles to maximize effective use of human resources
• Determining the organization's type

Many of the nation's leading organizations (including over three-fourths of the Fortune 100 and many government and nonprofit organizations) use the MBTI assessment with employees and managers.

Taking the MBTI assessment should always be voluntary. The MBTI tool should be used to inform decisions through discussion, but not used to hire, fire, or promote people. The ethics stated by CPP, Inc., the publisher of the MBTI tool, maintain that individuals should be free to choose whether or not to take the MBTI assessment and to decide with whom to share results.

As I understand it, the only widespread use of the MBTI in corporate settings involves having existing employees take the test, with the idea that understanding type-related differences can help facilitate everybody working together with a minimum of misunderstandings and friction, among other things.

If there's any other silly propaganda you've uncritically gobbled down about the MBTI, feel free to let me know, and I'll do my best to continue your deprogramming.

 

[Mole]

[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]

At what level can we expect norms not to enforce norms?

This is an interesting question and the answer is at the meta level.

 

[Mole]

personality type itself is a decently good indicator of whether a person will be interested in MBTI.

This is a completely circular argument. So it is a self validating argument. In other words, it is begging the question.

 

[Mole]

Control isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Yes, a controlling personality is an improvement on an abusive personality, just as an empathic and creative personality is an improvement on a controlling personality.

 

[Mole]

INFP is the type most likely to be a creative artist, and I'd also say the INFs are relatively empathic types.

There is no empirical evidence that infp are most likely to be a creative artist, none whatsoever.

 

[Mole]

If there's any other silly propaganda you've uncritically gobbled down about the MBTI, feel free to let me know, and I'll do my best to continue your deprogramming.

Mrs Katherine Briggs and her daughter Mrs Isabel Briggs Myers had no education in Psychometrics and no training in Psychometrics, so they plagiarised mbti from Psychological Types by Carl Jung.

And Carl Jung himself writes that Psychological Types is based on no empirical evidence.

Carl Jung sexually abused his female patients and he himself suffered a psychotic breakdown.

Carl Jung also adopted the Führer as his father figure.

And Carl Jung, as President of the German Psychoanalytic Association followed the orders of Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring including telling the German Psychoanalysts to use Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler as their psychological reference book.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

Mrs Katherine Briggs and her daughter Mrs Isabel Briggs Myers had no education in Psychometrics and no training in Psychometrics, so they plagiarised mbti from Psychological Types by Carl Jung.

And Carl Jung himself writes that Psychological Types is based on no empirical evidence.

Carl Jung sexually abused his female patients and he himself suffered a psychotic breakdown.

Carl Jung also adopted the Führer as his father figure.

And Carl Jung, as President of the German Psychoanalytic Society followed the orders of Reichmarshall Goering including telling the German Psychoanalysts to use Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler as their psychological reference book.

Here we go again.

 

[reckful]

There is no empirical evidence that infp are most likely to be a creative artist, none whatsoever.

None whatsoever, eh? You can start with the statistics discussed in this post.

Is this one of those "empirical evidence" threads? Does that mean you can point me to some "empirical evidence" for your assertions that "those with controlling or authoritarian parents are attracted to mbti" and "the empathic and creative are not attracted to the control of mbti"?

Mrs Katherine Briggs and her daughter Mrs Isabel Briggs Myers had no education in Psychometrics and no training in Psychometrics, so they plagiarised mbti from Psychological Types by Carl Jung.

Isabel Myers had no formal education in psychometrics. She was many years out of school when she educated herself in psychometrics for purposes of developing the MBTI. And I doubt you really have a problem with that. You're just pretending you've found a ground for disapproval because, apparently, you don't have any real ones.

As noted in Katharine Myers' Extended History of the MBTI:

In 1956, Isabel was visited by David R. Saunders, Ph.D., a brilliant psychometrician and psychologist who worked at Educational Testing Service (ETS) in Princeton, N.J., which published college entrance exams (the SAT) and other intelligence tests. Henry Chauncey, president of ETS, had long wanted to publish a personality instrument, and he was intrigued and sent one of his top people to investigate. David was impressed and on his recommendation, Isabel was invited to present her work at ETS in Princeton and an agreement was made for ETS to become the publisher.

As for "plagiarizing" Jung: on the contrary! Plagiarizing involves trying to take credit for someone else's work. Gifts Differing is actually disingenuous in the other direction. Myers made countless improvements, both large and small, to Jung but, because Jung had a name and she didn't, she exaggerated the extent to which her typology was simply derivative of Jung's original conceptions. She gave herself too little credit, not too much credit.

As David Keirsey has explained:

Myers must have accomplished her feat of developing Jung's distinctions into sixteen type portraits by dint of considerable observation of people in action, as well as a great deal of imaginative speculation. Salvaging the useful parts of Jung's cumbersome and self-contradictory theory of psychological types and making it available to scientist and layman alike was quite a feat. So the debt owed Isabel Myers by students of human conduct is truly enormous.

McCrae and Costa are the most prominent Big Five psychologists, and they've acknowledged that the MBTI is effectively tapping into four of the Big Five personality dimensions and noted that the Myers-Briggs typology passes muster in the psychometrics department in a way that Jung's original conceptions never did. Here's some of what they had to say in this 1989 article:

Although it provides rich insights into some aspects of individual differences, Jung's theory also creates formidable obstacles to the development of an inventory for assessing types. Much of his description concerns the unconscious life of the individual, which is not directly accessible to self-report. ... Descriptions of attitudes and functions sometimes seem to overlap ... and all classifications are complicated by the intrusion of unconscious elements of the opposing function when the dominant, conscious function is overdeveloped. Finally, Jung's descriptions of what might be considered superficial but objectively observable characteristics often include traits that do not empirically covary. Jung described extraverts as "open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters," but also as morally conventional and tough-minded in James's sense. Decades of research on the dimension of extraversion show that these attributes simply do not cohere in a single factor. ...

Faced with these difficulties, Myers and Briggs created an instrument by elaborating on the most easily assessed and distinctive traits suggested by Jung's writings and their own observations of individuals they considered exemplars of different types and by relying heavily on traditional psychometric procedures (principally item-scale correlations). Their work produced a set of internally consistent and relatively uncorrelated indices. ...

Jungians might question the addition of the JP scale, or even the enterprise of constructing a self-report type indicator. From the psychometric perspective, however, the MBTI may be looked upon as an advance over Jung's largely untested speculations. However one chooses to evaluate the instrument, it is crucial to realize that it is not isomorphic with the theory on which it is based. ...

[The present study] found no support for the typological theory the instrument is intended to embody. ... The correlates of individual scales were consistent with their item content, but would probably not have been predicted from Jungian theory. ... Yet how can the MBTI be interpreted or employed without reference to Jung's psychological types? One alternative is to adopt the perspective of the five-factor model of personality. Each of the four indices showed impressive evidence of convergence with one of the five major dimensions of normal personality. It is these convergences that probably account for the many meaningful associations between MBTI scales and external criteria such as occupational preferences, creativity, and educational performance.

 

[Mole]

Somatic and Psychological Types

Carl Jung wrote Psychological Types to complement the somatic types of the Führer.

The somatic types are Aryan, Negro, Asian and Jew.

The somatic types are designed to reify persons.

And so the psychological types are also designed to reify persons.

 

[reckful]

Carl Jung sexually abused his female patients and he himself suffered a psychotic breakdown.

Carl Jung also adopted the Führer as his father figure.

And Carl Jung, as President of the German Psychoanalytic Association followed the orders of Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring including telling the German Psychoanalysts to use Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler as their psychological reference book.

That's funny. I could have sworn this thread was about whether "those with controlling or authoritarian parents are attracted to mbti" and "the empathic and creative are not attracted to the control of mbti."

 

[Coriolis]

Yes, a controlling personality is an improvement on an abusive personality, just as an empathic and creative personality is an improvement on a controlling personality.

Show me a creative personality who has no control over the tools and media he/she creates with, and I will show you someone who creates messes and chaos.

We must wonder if you really aren't a closet MBTI afficionado. You couldn't have given MBTI enthusiasts a better setup for making their case than your line of posting on this thread. Seems you have learned something from your Bernays muse after all.

 

[WALMART]

Here we go again.

Like a drifter we were born to walk alone