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Male Advocacy Thread

Doctor Anaximander

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The Global Gender Gap Report: Global Gender Gap Report - Wikipedia

y. The report measures women's disadvantage compared to men, and is not a measure of equality of the gender gap. Gender imbalances to the advantage of women do not affect the score.[3] So, for example, the indicator "number of years of a female head of state (last 50 years) over male value" would score 1 if the number of years was 25, but would still score 1 if the number of years was 50. Due to this methodology, gender gaps that favor women over men are reported as equality and would not cause deficits of equality in other areas to become less visible in the score, excepted for life expectancy. To put it more simply: women could be better off in all areas and still the index would deem that country perfectly equal.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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(PDF) Thirty Years of Denying the Evidence on Gender Symmetry in Partner Violence: Implications for Prevention and Treatment

https://www.reddit.com/gallery/jesu9j

The first part of this article summarizes results from more than 200 studies that have found gender symmetry in perpetration and in risk factors and motives for physical violence in martial and dating relationships. It also summarizes research that has found that most partner violence is mutual and that self-defense explains only a small percentage of partner violence by either men or women. The second part of the article documents seven methods that have been used to deny, conceal, and distort the evidence on gender symmetry. The third part of the article suggests explanations for the denial of an overwhelming body of evidence by reputable scholars. The concluding section argues that ignoring the overwhelming evidence of gender symmetry has crippled prevention and treatment programs. It suggests ways in which prevention and treatment efforts might be improved by changing ideologically based programs to programs based on the evidence from the past 30 years of research.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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If most perpetrators of violence are male then it stands to reason that most adult male victims of DV are gay. I don't know if this presumption of mine is true, but nevertheless I still find it interesting how the statistics presented here do not in any way contradict this presumption. To me, a straight male complaining because a female partner they're living with is abusing them is comical because it implies that the man doesn't have the means, resources or ability to move elsewhere, and is therefore dependent on their female partner for room and board. As a person who currently pays $1,200 a month for rent, if any women out there wanted to spring for my room and board then I for one would be thrilled.

Regardless, obviously not everyone has the freedom to escape from their current living arrangement, and as such I feel the conversation of domestic violence isn't about domestic violence so much as it's about co-dependency and the ability for any given individual to achieve a semblance of independence by being able to opt for different room mates.

Interesting angle, framing in terms of codependency. The studies on gender symmetry to me suggest that framing this as a gendered issue is a mistake. Violent people tend to attract violent people.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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[Warning: content of a graphic and sensitive nature at the above link]

[Full text] Female genital mutilation and male circumcision: toward an autonomy-ba | MB






SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Foreskins are big business.
 

Red Memories

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I feel like this is the most firm place to discuss my disappointment that Johnny Depp lost his case considering the things that were released about Amber Heard being as abusive as she was.

Men can be victims too.
 

Firebird 8118

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I feel like this is the most firm place to discuss my disappointment that Johnny Depp lost his case considering the things that were released about Amber Heard being as abusive as she was.

Men can be victims too.

Exactly. And the fact that abuse towards men is still stigmatized to this day saddens me. They deserve justice too.
 

Red Memories

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someone's comment:
Translated from legalese:

The Claimant has not succeeded in his action for libel.

Johnny Depp's lawsuit failed.

Although he has proved the necessary elements of his cause of action in libel

He proved that he was justified in suing the Sun (because they made him out to be a wife-beater when he was being the one abused), BUT...

...the Defendants have shown that what they published in the meaning which I have held the words to bear was substantially true

Depp DID, technically, hit his wife (even if it was in self-defense) so the term 'wife-beater' isn't libel because factually it's true.

I mean to me that isn't termed true because wife-beater implies that Johnny was not defending himself and that he was in fact being abusive to her.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Interesting angle, framing in terms of codependency. The studies on gender symmetry to me suggest that framing this as a gendered issue is a mistake. Violent people tend to attract violent people.

Good post and I agree. I feel strongly that when it comes to abuse and rape that there should be no preconceived notions about demographics but each instance look at the individual specifics. Only talk demographics when looking at data after the fact and remain open to the assumption it is in constant potential change.

I think society underestimates female violence and should look at evidence free of assumptions.

This election has also put me in mind of the masculinity issues in U.S. culture. There is a NY Times article about "decorative masculinity" that requires props like guns and porn stars etc. If men were in a position to feel more genuine internal strength I don't think Trump would hold as much appeal. He possesses that false masculine strength. There is a bullying culture that also compromises masculinity.


I think there are ways society disempoweres men and some of that could be gender relations and some this bullying culture.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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Good post and I agree. I feel strongly that when it comes to abuse and rape that there should be no preconceived notions about demographics but each instance look at the individual specifics. Only talk demographics when looking at data after the fact and remain open to the assumption it is in constant potential change.

I think society underestimates female violence and should look at evidence free of assumptions.

Yes, I think we could address the issue of female and male violence in a way that doesn't discount or minimize victims of either gender. I think our culture values violence and force. Little boys and girls learn that force and violence is a way to assert independence and power. So we need to change the entire culture before we can truly bring DV numbers down to zero. The man who beats on his wife likely does so out of some feeling of powerlessness. The woman beating on her man or fighting back against her husband is likewise doing so out of a feeling of powerlessness. So they use the one way we teach our culture how to be powerful and independent. Even in our language we idolize physically nonviolent persons as "sharks" or "wolves" for being successful in areas like business, politics, etc. We use words like "warrior" or "fighter". Our love of such terms reveals a fixation on violence and war.

This election has also put me in mind of the masculinity issues in U.S. culture. There is a NY Times article about "decorative masculinity" that requires props like guns and porn stars etc. If men were in a position to feel more genuine internal strength I don't think Trump would hold as much appeal. He possesses that false masculine strength. There is a bullying culture that also compromises masculinity.

Good point. When people feel powerless, they find ways to live out power fantasies in whatever way they can. For men, they idolize a sort of cartoonish Arnold Schwarzeneggar version of masculinity. Some women seem to have their own versions of that power fantasy but I'm not really qualified to say what that looks like.

I think there are ways society disempoweres men and some of that could be gender relations and some this bullying culture.

In my opinion, our problem is we tend to look at women as rewards. Damsels to be rescued. Sexual objects. This informs a lot of socially conservative thinking and policy making, although I think sometimes that bias influences even progressive feminism. Not saying all feminists want to infantilize women, I'm thinking it's more the radfems and TERFs who I tend to see thinking that way.

We tend to look at men as doers or utilities. Success objects. This encourages a bootstraps mindset and they are less inclined to seek help and support for any sort of emotional or physical issues. It's a really hard instinct to overcome as a man. I personally like the feeling of sacrificing some of my own well being to protect my wife and child, and it's very difficult to show weakness, even when I am conscious of this instinct and realize it's silly. It's ironic, we empower men more to be doers and achievers, yet this empowerment is an illusion often, and comes with a downside.

I think humans' biggest curse is that we're largely instinctual animals, but we have enough self-awareness to realize we're creatures of instinct and biological impulses. But it's not always easy to override the hardware, even when we have newer software telling us better.
 

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Coincidentally, I just happened to see the lastest statistics on domestic violence for Germany about half an hour ago and - at least in this part of the world - little has changed over the last few years. According to the official numbers about one in five victims of domestic violence is male and one in five perpetrators is female. Those cover battery, stalking, physical threats, sexual harassment, rape, kidnapping and murder.

20% isn't little and definitely worth awareness campaigns and help programs of their own, but it's nowhere near parity.



EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying this to dismiss violence against men but to make clear that insisting on it secretely being 50-50 does men a disservice as it reduces the credibility of a good and justified cause. The point is that it doesn't have to be equally frequent to be a problem or to be taken seriously.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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Coincidentally, I just happened to see the lastest statistics on domestic violence for Germany about half an hour ago and - at least in this part of the world - little has changed over the last few years. According to the official numbers about one in five victims of domestic violence is male and one in five perpetrators is female. Those cover battery, stalking, physical threats, sexual harassment, rape, kidnapping and murder.

20% isn't little and definitely worth awareness campaigns and help programs of their own, but it's nowhere near parity.



EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying this to dismiss violence against men but to make clear that insisting on it secretely being 50-50 does men a disservice as it reduces the credibility of a good and justified cause. The point is that it doesn't have to be equally frequent to be a problem or to be taken seriously.

giphy.gif


No one is insisting (at least in this thread) that it’s 50-50.
 

Red Herring

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giphy.gif


No one is insisting (at least in this thread) that it’s 50-50.

Then I misread your position in this threat. Sorry! In my defense, it secretely being 50-50 but the official numbers hiding it is a common MRA talking point.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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Then I misread your position in this threat. Sorry! In my defense, it secretely being 50-50 but the official numbers hiding it is a common MRA talking point.

I don’t talk to the MRA subs anymore, but I wouldn’t be surprised

I haven’t seen that stated in the left wing male advocates sub but I’m not on there very often so I could’ve missed something
 

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To me, a straight male complaining because a female partner they're living with is abusing them is comical because it implies that the man doesn't have the means, resources or ability to move elsewhere, and is therefore dependent on their female partner for room and board. As a person who currently pays $1,200 a month for rent, if any women out there wanted to spring for my room and board then I for one would be thrilled.
In a thread that has been discussing empathy from the outset, I’m surprised that the lack of it in your words here slipped in with no struggle. Financial dependence, and possibly dependence for shelter at all, upon a violent person is a nightmare situation that nobody who knows it wants to be in. Stigma upon its vulnerability is among the challenges of getting out, and a totally unnecessary one - stigma such as not being taken seriously, or assumptions about the nature of a situation. It would be progress not to spread it.
 

Deprecator

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In a thread that has been discussing empathy from the outset, I’m surprised that the lack of it in your words here slipped in with no struggle. Financial dependence, and possibly dependence for shelter at all, upon a violent person is a nightmare situation that nobody who knows it wants to be in. Stigma upon its vulnerability is among the challenges of getting out, and a totally unnecessary one - stigma such as not being taken seriously, or assumptions about the nature of a situation. It would be progress not to spread it.
Envying an enviable situation that another person might go out of their way to complain about does not in any way prevent said person from getting a job and working towards a semblance of financial independence. Regardless though, I do find it interesting how you mention a lack of empathy on my part, and perhaps this might be attributed to a generalized lack of social awareness. Perhaps if more men out there wanted to come forth and share their stories about how horrible their female partner counterparts are treating them while their room and board is being paid for, then this stigma that you mentioned might be at least somewhat curtailed. Alas. If such phenomena is mostly exclusive to the LGBT community (as I've already went out of my way to theorize and no one has yet been bothered to dispute), then such treasured testimony would be few and far between.
 

Cor Luctis

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Envying an enviable situation that another person might go out of their way to complain about does not in any way prevent said person from getting a job and working towards a semblance of financial independence. Regardless though, I do find it interesting how you mention a lack of empathy on my part, and perhaps this might be attributed to a generalized lack of social awareness. Perhaps if more men out there wanted to come forth and share their stories about how horrible their female partner counterparts are treating them while their room and board is being paid for, then this stigma that you mentioned might be at least somewhat curtailed. Alas. If such phenomena is mostly exclusive to the LGBT community (as I've already went out of my way to theorize and no one has yet been bothered to dispute), then such treasured testimony would be few and far between.
You seem to think it is a simple matter for someone who has been financially dependent on an abusive person to become independent. It is even easier for someone already financially independent to ask an abusive partner to leave and to end the relationship.
 
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