Loving God?

[hungrypossum]

Hey, about the buddy Jesus thing, you're right!
We cannot take God so buddy-like, that we forget that he is God. I attended John Bevere's leadership summit, and he explained why God doesnt always make his presence known. Meaning, sometimes we can walk into church and it is void of his presence. Because "it is impossible to please God without faith". He also said...imagine.. let's say the President walks into a room. Would you not stand up straight, brush your coat, and offer him a chair?

Well, when God walks in what would you do (I know I'd involuntarily crumple on the ground, I know how it feels when you're really near him lol it'd be amazing if you can still remain standing!) but... well knowing he's there makes all the difference. That's why God only manifests in an atmosphere of people who revere him. Like.. AHHHH the owner of the universe is here! *everyone falls on their face and trembles* But let me tell you that God, who preaches humility, has got to be the humblest, or he would not have deemed to walk earth as a man and as a carpenter.

The reason I talk to him "casually", is not because I do Not revere him. It is because he knows me better than I know myself, and I shouldn't even pretend to be someone I'm not! And usually I'm shouting in my head anyway.

When I talk to him usually I'm like GOD GOD GOD! HELP! I CANT FOCUS ON MY STUDIES! ITS WORLD OF WARCRAFT'S FAULT! Ok the thing is, it's not like God is gonna go: Your prayer is answered! Your craving for WOW has thus ended! Nope, it'd be like... I would dedicate that hour of study to God or something like that Because God wants us to have a spirit of excellency in all that we do, so I can make it an aim to try my best. Then I would open my medical book and look interestingly at a page full of medical jargons.. that otherwise might mean nothing to me, except that I know I'm understanding how God made us!

You know, when I'm feeling angry, moody etc, and I just can't stop using that swear word, I gotta tell God. Sometimes, I even go like GOD! Why did this thing happen to me its awful I FEEL @#$%^&*~ Some people may argue and say repent of doing that bad thing so you can stand clean before him, NO WAY! He's there so that he can help you through everything in life! Do you know that after Simon Peter denied Jesus 3 times, and then Jesus was crucified (Peter wept bitterly). Now, after Jesus came back to life, Jesus played a practical joke by standing on the beach cooking fish near where the disciples were fishing at sea. They did not recognize him at first, but when Peter saw Jesus, he jumped out of the boat and swam to Jesus. Now, wouldn't someone who has sinned run away from God? NO SILLY! That's what Jesus died for.

Do not hide anything you do from God, share it with him cos he knows anyway. (As in, don't be comfortable we should always be growing to be better people). As yet, I am trying to stop using profanities because I have learnt they are hurtful to people around me who are "feeling types" I tell Jaime all the time "You are fat" - not that it's profane, but it can be insensitive and since Jesus doesnt care that he's fat, I should just leave him alone.

Now another interesting thing about being frank with God, flip open to your bibles to Psalms. God annoints cute little shepherd boy, David at the age of ....13? is it? Someone check me. David is annointed, and the Holy Spirit rests on him all of his life.Then David starts writing the book of Psalms. Now let's fast forward ... at the end of David's life, it was written that "David was a man after God's own heart". However, interestingly enough, in Psalms, David's diary, he always complains "Lord, why are you silent"? etc. He even says OH LORD, help me my enemies are taking over me! Why have you not raised your hand to help me? He kept alternating between a song of praise, and a song of lament and despair. But read Psalms 150, the last song in Psalms (for most bibles. Do be aware Psalms 153 exists too).

Remember that David was the one man in the bible who sinned gravely, sending a man to the front line in war to die so that he could marry that man's wife. THAT was what angered God. (Think about it, David could have repented much earlier before.) If David was not sorry for what he did, could he have asked God for forgiveness? Remember that God is justice!

B.t.w, about "reverence", sitting around and singing songs like Koombaya and amazing Grace does not mean anything to the Lord, nor does standing stick straight at pulpits and "dressing well". Do you remember who was chosen as God's messenger? John the Baptist! The guy who was so eccentricly dressed, the bible recorded it. He had camel hair clothes, a leather belt, and locusts dangling from his teeth.

Then there was our church youth camp, the one Jaime got healed in. I mentioned it in the "Slain in the Spirit" thread. We broke a window during basketball, broke the trampoline with excessive jumping... (I've got da video on youtube if you want)

But hey, if we were bad kids, you had to see how God moved during our camp! He sees the heart and not the outward punk!

 

[chippinchunk]

I never understood it, being a--- I dont know what I am, forget that. But why would you believe in something that says so much but wants to punish you?

 

[swordpath]

I think we're on entirely different planets or something Hungrypossum. I can't relate in any shape, form or way to what you're saying...

Anyways, someone said, hell is just a place that is the complete absence of God because we choose to never accept him so that's just where we end up. God isn't a choice to me. Faith isn't a choice to me. I don't see it, feel it or have any reason to believe that this screwed up world is resting in the palm of some loving god's hand. I can't see god, he isn't extending a physical hand to me and asking me to accept his love, so how is this rejecting him? There is no choice... I can't take some ancient text written by man who is full of blunder. Not to mention the bible isn't the only text related to religion and God/gods. Everything gets more complicated... Considering the facts, how can we be expected/punished for feeling/thinking the way a person like myself does? What kind of god are we talking about here?

 

[hungrypossum]

DOH! there are causes and effects to everything. Thats what God wanted us to learn from this life. Sure there wont be dust in heaven but right now I gotta learn this lesson, if I do not clean my room, surely much dust would gather in my room to choke me!

Life lessons. For e.g, again, if all I do is sit on my butt and stare at my computer screen (such as now), I will have an increasingly large butt. If I eat too many marshmallow dips, I will get fat.

Life has taught me so well that something you do equates to something else. In life it may not be fair, but I know that God is fair. He is just. He knew that the axe will always come on us whenever we did what was bad. In the old testament men offered animal sacrifices to God, paid in blood, as repentance. So they're still on his side. But God wanted the perfect sacrifice, so came Jesus, the one who had done no wrong, God in the form of man, to die.

In his justice he knew that he, being "Nature" itself...now if we work against "nature", wouldn't we be BLAM...dead? If the butterfly does not grow wings to fly, it will die.

God was never the cruel one. Read the book of judges in the bible. It talked about what men did when they did not believe there was a God. It was stated that initially God's plan had been to annoint a King to rule the land, but the people did not want it and so "in those days there was no law". The book of Judges ends by saying: a group of men, the Benjamites, raped a man's concubine till she died. That man, greatly angered, cut up his concubine into 12 pieces and sent her out to 12 different areas of the land. This stirred up anger amongst the people against the Benjamites, and a great war happened. It ended in sorrow and sadness! Yet something even more cruel happened. The people, afraid that the bloodline of the tribe of Benjamin would end, kidnapped some village women from a neighbouring tribe and handed them to the tribe of Benjamin as wives. None of this had been God's plan.

God knows if we are not under his umbrella of protection, we walk into the storm. That is why hell is described as a place without his presence. a place of sitting out in the darkness, of "teeth gnashing" and weeping

Humans punish and judge each other often enough. But as King David has written, "God's punishment is light". The bible has written "not to be afraid of his discipline, for it is like that of a father". I can say that you won't know till you're in a relationship with God, but I agree that the rules in the bible were written to protect. God has never forcefully told me to do something, in fact he's easy to ignore and I have actually played Frozen Throne several times when I should have been studying, and I gotta say.. who really regrets when exam time comes? I hate to say" Darn I should have been studying"...

 

[hungrypossum]

I'm sorry I didnt see what ya wrote Thebeatgoeson I'm answering it now..

But he has already made this world for us so there will be questions. You know, if you're really content with what this world and society has to offer, and you're content to build up riches here, you won't bother looking for God If the fact that you're a monkey makes more sense to you, then you will live and die believing that and never experience him. I'm pretty sure, you will keep living life the way men think they should live until they realize... hey..what's this all for. Then maybe they'll be like me. I got tired of living for myself, drinking, playing a fool all day at uni out of my parents money... and then I started searching. When I first felt something at church, a feeling of joy I could not explain, I kept reading my bible, underlining texts, trying to put it into practice. I did research, read "The God delusion", etc, read the Quran, etc.

I understand where most people are coming from when they say there's no proof. It's just that, it took me a while to find that proof. And while not tangible enough to explain to most people, I've come to realize that unless one receives a personal touch or experience with God, it is hard for them to believe another. But they have to actually actively seek first. C.S Lewis, an atheist, took many years of reading to believe in God. When he finally did, he was motivated to write that big fat book, the Chronicles of Narnia.

But if you have questions, I'm sure whoever opened this thread does have questions. You want some answers, so it so happens that I'm here answering them. You say I refuse to believe until I touch... go touch then! Who's stopping you?

Go look. Go explore. Or does whatever direction you're taking in life make more sense to you? If it does, you don't need God.

 

[unsung truth]

To me it sounds like those who argue against a loving God are simply complaining about the effort it takes to see the good in what they consider bad. Many of the events which give us "negative" emotions teach us important lessons as to who we are, how other people act, how we can improve ourselves. We have to strive to find the root of our pain and suffering. Then we have to pick at it, analyze it; and, for me at least, that process will usually end in a culminating moment of epiphany where I learn a humbling lesson and truly see the love of our creator.


If everything was perfect then there wouldn't be that beautiful motivation and inspiration which drives us constantly to strive for something better for ourselves as well as the people around us. Striving for a goal and learning along the way makes life all the more sweeter.

 

[Roger Mexico]

Yes, I am sorry, I should have remembered. All that we know is pain is bad, pleasure is good. We have to rewire our nature to like pain.

We certainly dont understand how rape, plunder, floods are a good thing, but we just have to believe they are. They show us white, and we have to scream 'its BLACK!'.

No doubt this is all that we know, but somehow we have to know of a way to like pain.

Essentially, morality is to be assessed only through the scope of human nature. The term good, in a non-human perspective is useless because we have no way of assessing such a thing.

Welcome to Methodism.

 

[Mort Belfry]

The love for God, specifically Yahweh, comes from two points.

1. People believed God had complete control over all matters of fate. Including the death of his subjects and detractors. (omnipotence)

2. People also believed God could hear everything they say, every thought they have. (omniscience)

In order to stay alive and successfully raise their family, people came to the conclusion that they had to keep in good with God (point 1). But that not for a second could they let up and acknowledge that the nice things they said or thought about him were a conniving plan to stay alive (point 2).

So people said they loved God, if only to keep him on their side. Thousands of generations have passed since this winning strategy and the result is that people now sincerely believe they love him for the sake of love. The fear of God has decreased in the last couple of hundred years and families that were scared of his power in the past were unable to tell their children as they had to keep up the mask of love.

This is why when tragedy strikes, like a collapsing bridge or a bombing, adherents to religion instantly let God off the hook. "It's all just part of his plan," might be a response, or blame on the victims might be a possibility.

This could be likened to Germany in World War Two. Many Nazis were forgiving of Hitler, as most feared death as a result of detraction. There also the Nazis believed in a long term plan and in the guilt of the victims.

Of course God is a more powerful figure than Hitler, mainly because he can hear your thoughts as well. Also he cannot be toppled. So love of God is a self-imposed propaganda stretching back thousands of generations that the faithful adopt in order to survive.

 

[hungrypossum]

Oh oh oh I thought of some really good examples, to make things easier to picture especially for the Intuitives.

Lets say, I, Possum, am God. I create the first generation of sea monkey souls, and put them into sea monkey shells. In them, I have already encoded the DNA for the future generations of sea monkeys I have planned. Because I made them, I'm telepathic and can read their minds. I put them into a lovely tank and would very much like the sea monkeys to interact with me. I annoint one lucky chosen sea monkey, Billy, and tell him to hang a nice big stone tablet in the tank with some reminders, such as "go to school, obey your parents, etc" so that their sea monkey society will go on well. Now even when they don't see me around, they can remember I'm watching over them, I'm there, don't worry, now enjoy the tank filter and the nice little mermaid decorations in the tank.

Now I don't wanna interferere with them cos they'll think I'm nosy, and if I'm always spoon feeding them, they won't be able to learn stuff. Billy gives me a nice sea monkey hug around my little finger, and returns to the tank to do the work I asked him. Hence he and his little family and new wife hold a sea monkey party, rejoice, and live life happily.

Now Billy was the first gen. so I gave him a long life, and then he dies. (Lets just say that after his death, his soul comes sit beside me and he joins my world, and I explain to him that there be life outside the sea monkey tank! And I bring him on a holiday to Tokyo Disneyland. He is boggled by how small his original world was! We rejoice together, and celebrate the times when he was in the tank and we helped build his generation together.)

His many many offspring have heard grandpa's tales so many times they are sick and tired of it. Gradually, they get caught up with all sorts of new trends and fashions, such as having plastic surgery to look like shrimps instead. They beat each other up, and they say that the Possum God, does not exist. And many young sea monkeys born into that generation are crying because they dont want to have plastic surgery (its painful) but their friends are forcing them to!

I only just read someone's post earlier in this thread.. something about God destroying Egypt etc? My answer to the flood is that if you look at the post I wrote above about what happened in the book of Judges, I hope you'll understand what God meant when he said men are evil. It is very difficult to see it at first, but if you think about it, if laws didn't exist, everyone you know right now would be killing or pillaging one another. And we don't have to kill someone to be evil, even bullying someone, causing them great unhappiness is actually evil enough. I've got a post on my blog about the time I interviewed a father whose daughter committed suicide because she was bullied. It's here at Reflect, said the RMIT lecturers., look back on archives. And ok, let's talk about the flood through my sea monkey examples.

Ok, gradually, the next few generations of sea monkeys get worst and worst. Sometimes, I just have to poke my finger into the tank to remind the sea monkeys I'm there, but they always forget. Gradually, one generation comes... and I can see their thoughts....and I weep. I can see that all they want to do is to cause one another harm. I can see that they will teach their offspring the same evil they know.

Yet there is one good sea monkey, Noah left. So I tell Noah "Noah, all your neighbours, homies etc... they aint good yo. You live in a neighbourhood everyone's hiding guns in their pockets. All they do is kill and steal and rape, but don't worry I got your wife and kids covered no one will touch ya. I'm gonna clean this tank. No one is gonna be left alive. But you gotta listen to me, you hear? You gotta build yourself something so ya wont die." Noah nods his sea monkey head, and does as I say. In time to come, the tank was cleaned, and only Noah's family survived.

The other example the poster brought up earlier, was that God destroyed other cities. Yep, there's Sodom and Gomorrah. But did you know, that before he destroyed the city, he asked for one man's opinion? Because God was so pleased with that one man, that they literally became friends. So the conversation would be like this:

Many generations after Noah, I talk to one of his descendents in the sea monkey tank.
"You Nicky, hey you talk to me everyday even though you dont see me. How ya going buddy."
Nicky nods. "How ya going Possum God."
"Hey Nicky, those guys living 2 suburbs away from you doing no good huh." "Yup, Possum God, they steal stuff all the time and they killed my best friend "
"Ok Nicky, you listen, I'm gonna crush that city."
"WHAT! NO Possum GOD NO! Please, if there is just 50 good men in that city, dont kill them ok?"
"Ok". I say.
I count. Nope, no 50 good men.
"WHAT! NO Possum GOD NO! Please, if there is just 40 good men in that city, dont kill them ok?"
I count. Nope, no 40 good men.

So that's what happened. That man actually haggled with God (thats what prayer is, conversation with God). He said "if there are 10 righteous man in the city, God, dont destroy it ok?" Nowadays we can get that close to God, I'm still trying but I sin tons k. TOns. So anyway, with Sodom and Gomorrah, there weren't even 10 good men in that city!

Anyway, here's the most epic tale of all. One day, I look in the tank and I see that though for many generations, the sea monkeys who know I'm there and acknowledge me have been offering up their food to me to tell me "sorry" for the things they've done. It warms my heart and I know those sea monkeys ad friends. However, I have come to see that I have to stop destroying, no matter how dark some of them can become. I see that some sea monkeys will always attempt to destroy others. I ponder about the way things are... and I ponder about how to show the sea monkeys I truly love them like my own children.

I look about me, but none are good enough a show of my love. And then I spot the thing that means the most to me in my world. (Ok God is a trinity, so when Jesus was on earth it doesnt mean no one was ruling at that time, but for the sake of this example...and I'm 21 I'm not married I dont have a kid) I give my own child, who was playing happily in my living room. I ask him "sweetie, would you like to save the sea monkeys you saw me raise". He nods "ok mummy". I weep and hug my child, for I won't see him for a long time and he's so young and cute, and he has never seen a dark world before.
I take my son and put him into sea monkey form, where he is born to a sea monkey family.... and you know the rest of the story.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

To me it sounds like those who argue against a loving God are simply complaining about the effort it takes to see the good in what they consider bad. Many of the events which give us "negative" emotions teach us important lessons as to who we are, how other people act, how we can improve ourselves. We have to strive to find the root of our pain and suffering. Then we have to pick at it, analyze it; and, for me at least, that process will usually end in a culminating moment of epiphany where I learn a humbling lesson and truly see the love of our creator.

If everything was perfect then there wouldn't be that beautiful motivation and inspiration which drives us constantly to strive for something better for ourselves as well as the people around us. Striving for a goal and learning along the way makes life all the more sweeter.

A lesson? That's it? That's what all of human suffering is for? It's like a fortune cookie made of human shit with an abortion inside.

Your god is a waste. If I ever meet him I will rape his ass in a primal display of dominance.

 

[hungrypossum]

But yea, look at what you guys wrote. You complain you dont see God there, but you say that he caused all the suffering. The human suffering How about you dont know him = human suffering

Surely everything is gonna be shit unless you know that this life is meant for you to grow. If not, you're highly likely to roll into a spiky ball of emo. I remember my friend saying "I believe I am God" and I said "wow, that's lonely". Poor guy, he had broken up his girlfriend shortly before I met up with him and he was like @_@ to that

And if I were God and my seamonkey said he wanted to rape me, I sure as heck would put him...far far far far far far far...away

 

[sassafrassquatch]

But yea, look at what you guys wrote. You complain you dont see God there, but you say that he caused all the suffering. The human suffering How about you dont know him = human suffering

Surely everything is gonna be shit unless you know that this life is meant for you to grow. If not, you're highly likely to roll into a spiky ball of emo. I remember my friend saying "I believe I am God" and I said "wow, that's lonely". Poor guy, he had broken up his girlfriend shortly before I met up with him and he was like @_@ to that

And if I were God and my seamonkey said he wanted to rape me, I sure as heck would put him...far far far far far far far...away

So the Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis because they didn't know God? The Tutsis were hacked to death by the Hutus because they didn't know God? I assume the people who drowned in the 2004 tsunami didn't know God either?

 

[hungrypossum]

Yes yes Tsunami and natural disasters. God must HATE US! Ok, this is VERY hard for me to explain cos right now, your human body and everything around you is probably important. Since you don't know whats gonna happen to you after death, you're gonna assume that what you can grasp and hold right now is more important to you than anything else.

About the Jews, the Nazis and the Tutis: I have no doubt that some are Christians. But as I mentioned about Sodom and Gomorrah, its not like Christians dont die too. Paul in the bible was crucified, you can check wikipedia, its really interesting to see that all the disciples except John died horrible deaths.

I, along with everyone else, has asked why God allows this to happen. The conclusion would be that the one who gave us life hates our guts but er...why would he make me to suffer? My conclusion, as I have written earlier, is that God is not so much concerned with the condition of our flesh as with the condition of our soul. While all a human being may be able to see before us is our flesh.

King David wrote in Psalms "My strength, and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion, forever." If you've watched the movie 300, you'd have seen so many men charging bravely in battle to their deaths - the cause is to kill one another and win! Well, I had no cause in life and my cause in life was to drink myself silly because I seriously did not see the point of following my parent's will and doing my degree. Sure I'm rich, young, good looking (even if you don't think so I think so! ) have a cute boyfriend (this was last year) ..... man I'm sick of it all I thought. Whenever I'm doing something now dedicated to God, I can feel that kinda fire and passion you get for living for a great cause.

So doing everything for God and trusting in building up for eternity sure works. It's written that "the joy of the Lord is my strength". I would so rather die for a good cause, then die a silly one like taking drugs in my bed. Some die for fame, but everyone in the world's gonna die so who's gonna remember you huh.

God, in fact, said our human lives are like a "breath through the nostrils". Indeed, the earth looks old and long to us. But if he's older than that and if I'm gonna be with him for all eternity.. oh man!

Yea, you can look everywhere in the world to find your joy.. hope you're still young. Go find it. If its beer, women or money. But it cant always be with you and you get tired. But I gotta say my joy lives with me. I can have nothing in my hands and I'm happy. Call me crazy or call it that I'm smoking God-weed, it's a 24/7 spiritual high BABY! Always talking to myself? COOL! never lonely. When I'm studying, it aint no drag, my best friend is with me. When my car is stuck in the wilderness and no one there, cool, my best friend with me. When i'm gonna die i'm gonna be smiling. Thats strength!

 

[sassafrassquatch]

 

[swordpath]

lol...

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm relieved, at least, that we can see their hands.
(ALL of them... except for that one hidden to the right...!)

Yes, I am sorry, I should have remembered. All that we know is pain is bad, pleasure is good. We have to rewire our nature to like pain.

We certainly dont understand how rape, plunder, floods are a good thing, but we just have to believe they are. They show us white, and we have to scream 'its BLACK!'.

(blah blah Kant & co blah blah

Actually, I was just saying you don't have a framework by which to be sure of your judgment. That's all.

I'm not sure why you're resorting to what passes in these parts for intellectual histrionics.

(although, if it was pure sarcasm, I suppose it was sort of cute )

 

[machintruc]

Why do humans feel compelled to worship and show admiration towards god?

Well we aren't 'compelled'. Worshipping God is a sign of Freedom.

 

[Hirsch63]

"...I'm sure that the experiment is for our own good, but that still makes God the vivisectionist..."

 

[unsung truth]

So the Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis because they didn't know God? The Tutsis were hacked to death by the Hutus because they didn't know God? I assume the people who drowned in the 2004 tsunami didn't know God either?

You are so enthralled in making a counter example that you aren't thinking through what you're saying. God does not protect you from suffering and pain in your direct sense. He works indirectly through our ability to live through both good and bad and LEARN from it.

If you say the world is so horrible and thus God is not loving then what is your solution? What kind of world would you create? A world where everyone is happy? Happiness is subjective and what may be happiness for you may not be happiness for others. And even if you were to make everyone happy then what would be the point of life? There would be nothing to pursue, no dreams, no needs, no gratifying work; sounds like a fate worse than death.

And Rather than continually denying God and taking on this horribly pessimistic view of the world, why don't you look at all of the examples of love in the world; of Mother Teresa, Ghandi, the Dalai Lama, of the people around you and of any moment when you are happy.

 

[Ojian]

That was so funny I squirt my drink

I think a lot of ones view depends on their perspective. Since this discussion seems to primarily be referring to the God described in the Bible, that will be where I'm drawing from.

The NT refers to the Devil being the one currently pulling the strings, calling him the 'god' and 'ruler' of this world, and ultimately is the one responsible for the crap existence many have to deal with, though the stupid actions of people bear a lot of the responsibility too. When you throw 'free will' into the equation, God could just be allowing things to degrade to make the point that choosing to do things the Devils/human way doesn't lead to success.

And if you look at the bigger picture to understand that it won't always be like this and at some point God will step in to fix the problem, over the course of time this bad period of human history will be a mere 'blip' on the whole.

Ya, it sucks to be having to live in the middle of the crap-phase, but overall it will turn out for the better. To illustrate, it is like a parent letting a child go thru a painful operation, knowing that it will hurt and the recovery will also be difficult, but the end result will be a living and healthy kid.