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Lack of understanding as a debate tactic

Ghost of the dead horse

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Have you considered it? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
In retrospect, I should have done the STFU many times. But I'm stubborn and I don't do the STFU as much as I should. It goes both ways. Suppose someone else is more than a bit silly, and I'm ever so kindly suggesting this STFU for them. Do they take it kindly? They do not. They do NOT. People are stubborn.

Opportunities to learn are being missed left and right. But, that's life. I'm more worried about people who get depressed and for whom the STFU becomes the norm. Those people don't let their voices being heard. That's a huge loss.
 

Jaguar

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In retrospect, I should have done the STFU many times. But I'm stubborn and I don't do the STFU as much as I should. It goes both ways. Suppose someone else is more than a bit silly, and I'm ever so kindly suggesting this STFU for them. Do they take it kindly? They do not. They do NOT. People are stubborn.

Opportunities to learn are being missed left and right. But, that's life. I'm more worried about people who get depressed and for whom the STFU becomes the norm. Those people don't let their voices being heard. That's a huge loss.

Well, my underlying "motive" to pretty much everything I say is knowledge. It sure as shit isn't about winning anything or the juvenile "I'm right, you're wrong." And we actually have members here who have posted "I'm usually right" which makes them a legend in their own mind and as useful to me as a case of genital herpes, but I digress. So you know their motive isn't knowledge, whatsoever. In my opinion, it's the most ignorant who think they're always right leading to the unfortunate result of having no incentive to learn a thing or seek out anything in the outer world that conflicts with what's going on inside their skull. And when you know you're dealing with someone that audacious, why give them the time of day? I find those people dangerous to societies as a whole. Here in the USA we have that same problem play out in our court system where they will pervert facts and refuse to disclose or acquire knowledge in order to be seen as "right" or "win" their case. That's a whole different animal, and one I have no patience with. In that situation, it can cost people their life.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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Sometimes the other person is unable or unwilling to explain what they mean. They might even say they already have explained enough, or insist that it should not require explanation: "anyone else would understand; if you don't, the fault lies with you". How do you handle this?
Someone did a variation of this. She told that her side of the story is being supported "all over the internet" and I would just have to look it up. I replied that when I go to the internet, I found arguments to the contrary. She would have to make the arguments personally instead of claiming the issues have been solved elsewhere.
 

Maou

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Well, my underlying "motive" to pretty much everything I say is knowledge. It sure as shit isn't about winning anything or the juvenile "I'm right, you're wrong." And we actually have members here who have posted "I'm usually right" which makes them a legend in their own mind and as useful to me as a case of genital herpes, but I digress. So you know their motive isn't knowledge, whatsoever. In my opinion, it's the most ignorant who think they're always right leading to the unfortunate result of having no incentive to learn a thing or seek out anything in the outer world that conflicts with what's going on inside their skull. And when you know you're dealing with someone that audacious, why give them the time of day? I find those people dangerous to societies as a whole. Here in the USA we have that same problem play out in our court system where they will pervert facts and refuse to disclose or acquire knowledge in order to be seen as "right" or "win" their case. That's a whole different animal, and one I have no patience with. In that situation, it can cost people their life.

Curious, but how do you verify what is correct and incorrect when knowledge itself is plagued by ulterior motives and deceit due to "Education" being fueled by chrony capitalism?

Knowledge can and has been corrupt the moment it was dictated by the state. I personally find people trust too willingly, and question too little about education and the government in general. They build their entire worldviews with everything they are taught, but don't question any of it. One might argue it is the result of having to choose something, than relying on nothing. But what happens to actual intelligence, when it is fed lies and told that when you doubt something. You are secretly x, y and z? When in fact, what you were feeling is that you are being deceived?

I would say the problem with people now-a-days, is they have too much "Education", and not enough critical thinking. No matter how much "knowledge" one obtains, it doesn't make one smart, and it doesn't mean you can readily use it. It just means you are capable of repeating what has been said before. There is the lack of new, a lack of nuance and new perspective. People need to realize, is that most peoples concerns are equal, in different walks of life. What might seem redundant in a urban community, is life and death in a rural one. The fact the two are ruled by the same person tends to say a lot about the ineffectiveness of democracy.
 

Jaguar

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Curious, but how do you verify what is correct and incorrect when knowledge itself is plagued by ulterior motives and deceit due to "Education" being fueled by chrony capitalism?

Knowledge can and has been corrupt the moment it was dictated by the state. I personally find people trust too willingly, and question too little about education and the government in general. They build their entire worldviews with everything they are taught, but don't question any of it. One might argue it is the result of having to choose something, than relying on nothing. But what happens to actual intelligence, when it is fed lies and told that when you doubt something. You are secretly x, y and z? When in fact, what you were feeling is that you are being deceived?

I would say the problem with people now-a-days, is they have too much "Education", and not enough critical thinking. No matter how much "knowledge" one obtains, it doesn't make one smart, and it doesn't mean you can readily use it. It just means you are capable of repeating what has been said before. There is the lack of new, a lack of nuance and new perspective. People need to realize, is that most peoples concerns are equal, in different walks of life. What might seem redundant in a urban community, is life and death in a rural one. The fact the two are ruled by the same person tends to say a lot about the ineffectiveness of democracy.

Clearly we have different ideas about what knowledge is.
 

Maou

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Clearly we have different ideas about what knowledge is.

Care to explain what the difference is? Do you feel anything taught in school is infallible? Do you feel it is open to interpretation and or just a guideline in some theoretical instances? Do you support the scientific method?
 

Jaguar

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Care to explain what the difference is? Do you feel anything taught in school is infallible? Do you feel it is open to interpretation and or just a guideline in some theoretical instances? Do you support the scientific method?

What does school have do with anything? School is the last thing I think about when I think of knowledge, as knowledge-seeking is a way of life for me. It doesn't end. Ever. It's not something you do for a few years in concrete buildings, resulting in a piece of paper and then off you go. And if anyone is in need of explaining, it's you. What the hell does the state and crony capitalism have to do with knowledge? (Which is constantly changing.) What people thought they knew 20 years ago could easily be out the window today. You have to make it part of your life like eating, and be willing to constantly consume it for your "nutritional" needs.
 

Maou

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What does school have do with anything? School is the last thing I think about when I think of knowledge, as knowledge-seeking is a way of life for me. It doesn't end. Ever. It's not something you do for a few years in concrete buildings, resulting in a piece of paper and then off you go. And if anyone is in need of explaining, it's you. What the hell does the state and crony capitalism have to do with knowledge? (Which is constantly changing.) What people thought they knew 20 years ago could easily be out the window today. You have to make it part of your life like eating, and be willing to constantly consume it for your "nutritional" needs.

I don't disagree that school doesn't equate with the acquiring of knowledge. But is is the normal place one would assume where to be "Educated" in life. My point of crony capitalism has to do with the institution of state mandated education, so it goes in part with the first part. That school doesn't always teach you real "knowledge", but educates you on what to think and not think. It conditions you. And yes, it is ever changing, but this is ignored. I think that education in general has only degraded in quality as well. I agree many things become obsolete. There are constants however, things that never change despite new technology and changing environments. It is these fundamentals, that are often overlooked by most educational systems. I would also like to add that "Nutrition" is often constantly changing as well, since science is constantly changing on what is good and isn't good for the human body. As well as the ability to study the affects of such things. For example, butter used to be considered "Unhealthy" so they invented margarine. But new science proves regular butter is way more healthy for you than margarine. They did this with milk and many other products as well. But now I think they are finally settling on the fact that natural is best. I can't help but think this was fueled by some capitalistic interest, by taking a known product, making it "Bad", and selling the cure. This is very common, in my opinion. This is what I mean by capitalism affecting society, by scamming the population into buying a product they never needed. I also can't help but see the study saying "butter was bad", as being nothing more than an ulterior motive by the political class in cahoots with scientists, in connection to capitalism. All for the purpose to creating a new "product" to sell to an ignorant population, and become rich. This isn't limited to nutrition, I feel it affects every aspect of life. From medicine, to environmental concerns. Another example is bottled water etc.

Anyways, so what do you consider actual knowledge? How do you determine "knowledge" and how do you choose to acquire it?
 

Coriolis

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Care to explain what the difference is? Do you feel anything taught in school is infallible? Do you feel it is open to interpretation and or just a guideline in some theoretical instances? Do you support the scientific method?
Of course I support the scientific method. Mathematics, if properly taught, is the subject that is closest to "infallible". I cannot imagine a circumstance in which 2 + 2 = 17. Science subjects will be a close second, to the extent that teaching reflects accepted theories (note the scientific definition of "theory") and scientific method. Foreign languages will be next, to the extent that what is taught accurately reflects correct contemporary usage of the language. Most importantly, students should be taught how to learn, how to evaluate information and draw their own conclusions based on internal consistency, cause and effect relationships, and other measures of soundness.

All of this can and should happen in school, but just as importantly can and should happen throughout life. It requires an inquiring mind, though, and a willingness to dispense with convenient and emotionally satifying shortcuts.
 

Maou

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Of course I support the scientific method. Mathematics, if properly taught, is the subject that is closest to "infallible". I cannot imagine a circumstance in which 2 + 2 = 17. Science subjects will be a close second, to the extent that teaching reflects accepted theories (note the scientific definition of "theory") and scientific method. Foreign languages will be next, to the extent that what is taught accurately reflects correct contemporary usage of the language. Most importantly, students should be taught how to learn, how to evaluate information and draw their own conclusions based on internal consistency, cause and effect relationships, and other measures of soundness.

All of this can and should happen in school, but just as importantly can and should happen throughout life. It requires an inquiring mind, though, and a willingness to dispense with convenient and emotionally satifying shortcuts.

So what went wrong?
 

Coriolis

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So what went wrong?
As with many things, processes became/were more important than goals, such that people used the wrong yardsticks to measure "success".
 

Maou

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As with many things, processes became/were more important than goals, such that people used the wrong yardsticks to measure "success".

I completely agree. Do you think materialism is bad by chance?
 

Coriolis

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I completely agree. Do you think materialism is bad by chance?
What has that to do with education? Your quesition seems a non sequitur.
 

Maou

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What has that to do with education? Your quesition seems a non sequitur.

I think materialism is the reason that people became the "yardstick" to measure success in today's society. Losing sight of whats more important in life, resulting in aimless consumerism.
 

Lark

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I think materialism is the reason that people became the "yardstick" to measure success in today's society. Losing sight of whats more important in life, resulting in aimless consumerism.

I can understand that people with nothing would crave the alternative, its become the engine of the economy globally which is troubling too, however, I also think that when people have sufficient for long enough there is a drop off in that same craving. No one wants anything that is plentiful, available, easy to acquire, even when its one of the essentials of life, as it turns out.

I'm only responding to this post in isolation, as I've not been following the thread, also when I hear people talk about materialism I tend to think of it in the philosophic sense, ie materialism vs. idealism. I dont hear the other moral meaning used that often. You know that most marketing and PR people would say that we now live in a "post-materialism" age? Its harder and harder to market things to people that appear inessential, material possessions are not as important as liquid assets, attention, time, experience.

Its possibly a sign that (among elites at least) the paradigm shift between having and being is happening.
 

RavioliAfficianado

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As with many things, processes became/were more important than goals, such that people used the wrong yardsticks to measure "success".
More like the, "goal" of science is set by the people who are funding the study. If a scientist produces results that are supportive of those with money/power they'll become rich and famous themselves. But if they produce results that are problematic to those people they will find it hard to advance their career.
 

Coriolis

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I think materialism is the reason that people became the "yardstick" to measure success in today's society. Losing sight of whats more important in life, resulting in aimless consumerism.
In what way are people a yardstick for success? I don't understand this.
 

Maou

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In what way are people a yardstick for success? I don't understand this.

I got my words mixed up, just realized. Materialism became the yardstick people use to measure success by. Such as a house and a car have become milestones to measure your success.
 

Coriolis

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I got my words mixed up, just realized. Materialism became the yardstick people use to measure success by. Such as a house and a car have become milestones to measure your success.
I see - yes, that makes sense, but how does it relate to shortcomings in our education system?
 

Maou

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I see - yes, that makes sense, buit how does it relate to shortcomings in our education system?

It has more to do with the intention vehind in establishing education, and how that intention shaped people's ideas of education/success. The government intentionally down played modest lifestyles. Then spent years conditioning people into thinking college is the only viable option. Which changed people's perspective on success over time. It wasn't about supporting your family, but about making money and living in luxury. This meant aiming for a job that paid a LOT to compensate for that choice. So to show their success, people flaunt their wealth in public. This degraded the value of family, and happiness as well. This is why many rich people are narcissistic too. All to justify that money makes them happy, but does not.
 
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