Keirsey Role Variant Supremacy

[Cellmold]

In keirsey's work I am an NT because I have a brain. Oh and I like learning new capabilities.

I can't picture a single person who would identify with an SJ type under his theory. They are just some alien relic pieced together from a time gone by. Sprinkled with just a....little, ok large, amount of bias.

 

[Thalassa]

In keirsey's work I am an NT because I have a brain. Oh and I like learning new capabilities.

I can't picture a single person who would identify with an SJ type under his theory. They are just some alien relic pieced together from a time gone by. Sprinkled with just a....little, ok large, amount of bias.

Can you picture [MENTION=7816]JTG1984[/MENTION]?

Because he actually does.

He likes the SJ matrix of temperament, specifically, and I agree, I like the matrices of temperament better than Keirsey's individual type descriptions, which tend to veer off into fanciful mythology and steretypes from the 1950s.

JTG is more of the 1980s-2000's "get off my lawn kid, I'm in a hurry in one of my ten exactly-the-same black shirts to go play tennis."

 

[wolfy]

This is the Keirsey thread on the Dark Escape book. But there's a link somewhere with an actual chart, and it says all the types and what they correlate to, it's on-line, I just don't know how to locate it quickly.

http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22

These are the SPs: The Unscrupulous Cheaters (ESTP) The Malicious Vandals (ISTP), The Reckless Bingers (ESFP), and The Perverse Derelicts (ISFP).

NFs: Convulsive Decoy and the Emptied Possum; of the Masked Imposters: there is the Invaded Stranger and the Immolated Zealot.

I believe those are ENFJ, INFJ, then INFP and ENFP? Or do I have them backwards? Maybe Decoy is ENFP and Possum is INFP, and the Stranger is INFJ and Zealot is ENFJ.

NTs:

Apprehensive Quibblers: the Programmed Checkers and the Spellbound Ruminators. There are the Frozen Bunglers: Derailed Escapists and Stunned Blockers.

I have no clue what these correlate to.

I would have thought the word "paranoid" would have appeared next to INTJ. Slap my ass and call me surprised.

I also think this is cute:

There are the Nebulous Flakes (NF), Serious Jerks (SJ), Sneaky Punks (SP), and the Nitpicking Twits (NT).

WTH are the SJs? BRB.

Perverse Derelict, that is pretty good. Eris B's page on type had isfp as phleg/san as well. Makes sense.

 

[Galena]

This is the Keirsey thread on the Dark Escape book. But there's a link somewhere with an actual chart, and it says all the types and what they correlate to, it's on-line, I just don't know how to locate it quickly.

http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22

These are the SPs: The Unscrupulous Cheaters (ESTP) The Malicious Vandals (ISTP), The Reckless Bingers (ESFP), and The Perverse Derelicts (ISFP).

NFs: Convulsive Decoy and the Emptied Possum; of the Masked Imposters: there is the Invaded Stranger and the Immolated Zealot.

I believe those are ENFJ, INFJ, then INFP and ENFP? Or do I have them backwards? Maybe Decoy is ENFP and Possum is INFP, and the Stranger is INFJ and Zealot is ENFJ.

NTs:

Apprehensive Quibblers: the Programmed Checkers and the Spellbound Ruminators. There are the Frozen Bunglers: Derailed Escapists and Stunned Blockers.

I have no clue what these correlate to.

I would have thought the word "paranoid" would have appeared next to INTJ. Slap my ass and call me surprised.

I also think this is cute:

There are the Nebulous Flakes (NF), Serious Jerks (SJ), Sneaky Punks (SP), and the Nitpicking Twits (NT).

WTH are the SJs? BRB.

Too bad Dark Escape isn't out yet. I like typology books that take a critical stance because, while they are harder to read, the intensity of the reaction they provoke makes it easier to feel out what's what.

Also seeing the favoritism here that the OP brought up here, with NFs sticking out sinisterly, hatefully. Did Keirsey have an unhinged NF ex-girlfriend or something? Their nicknames could all be premises for horror movies. I mean:

Unscrupulous Cheaters: Run away!
Malicious Vandals: Yikes!
Reckless Bingers: Draining.
Perverse Derelicts: Is this...even legal?

Programmed Checkers: Could actually be an asset in some offices!
Spellbound Ruminators: Actually kind of romantic. Let me join you, spellbound ruminator.
Derailed Escapists: Idle but not actively harmful.
Stunned Blockers: Annoying at worst. Frozen.

Convulsive Decoy: A doll is haunted by the ghost of a little girl who died of parasites in the brain. When the doll imitates her death, convulsing and leaking blood, her vengeful spirit is awake...
Emptied Possum: Slow zombies that play dead to lure their prey. The virus first spreads to humans when a rural family undercooks some roadkill.
Masked Impostor: They have replaced your friends and your loved ones. Under the masks, there are no faces. They will consume you next.
Immolated Zealot: A flaming vision that comes in dreams. An ancient sorcerer who swore, burning on a cross, that he would return...

 

[Thalassa]

Actually all of the really scary ones are SP...but I think it's because SPs "act upon" the world, so it's like you can't get away from what they're doing, because they're doing it.

I also didn't list the SJ ones bc I couldn't find them, but I'm sure they're just as bad or worse, just more boring and legal.

I think the NF ones are emotionally dramatic because hysteria is what characterizes the NF (in a dark way).

The NT ones are bad if you choose to interact with them. I guess his point with NTs is that you can potentially actually avoid them.

Unless they're Vladimir Putin?

Yeah, he has a lot of bias. It shows.

Keirsey's wife is actually NF.

His son's gf is also an NF.
[MENTION=17945]Webslinger[/MENTION].

 

[EJCC]

In my opinion David Keirsey in his titles for each of his role variants clearly favored the NTs over all of the other temperaments and hence I think he was a supremecist because pretty much everybody would rather be a Mastermind or an Inventor rather than a Supervisor or a Provider. Some of his titles clearly sound better than others. Perhaps they should be renamed more fairly.

They really should be!

It's a mix between businesslike and romanticized. It'd be more fair if they were either all romanticized, or all businesslike. Some of the more businesslike lists earlier in the thread seemed pretty fair, e.g. the ones from [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION].

ESTJ - Supervisor (could be Executive or Director)

I fail to see how either of those is an improvement, especially when you suggested such over-the-top ones for INFJs. (Perpetuating the problem?)

They're all decent enough for the businesslike route, though. Re: the romantic route, I like The Guardian. Makes us sound like badasses!

Edit: On second thought, I vote that ESTJ becomes The Terminator, because ESTJs love to finish things.

 

[Elfboy]

I would name them

ESTJ ~ The Administrator
ISTJ ~ The Auditor
ESFJ ~ The Shepherd
ISFJ ~ The Supporter

ESTP ~ The Opportunist
ISTP ~ The Craftsman
ESFP ~ The Performer
ISFP ~ The Sculptor

ENFP ~ The Paladin
INFP ~ The Dreamer
ENFJ ~ The Inspirer
INFJ ~ The Oracle

ENTP ~ The Trickster
INTP ~ The Philosopher
ENTJ ~ The Director
INTJ ~ The Innovator

PS: I kept a few of Keirsey's titles

 

[EJCC]

I would name them

ESTJ ~ The Administrator
ISTJ ~ The Auditor
ESFJ ~ The Shepherd
ISFJ ~ The Supporter

ESTP ~ The Opportunist
ISTP ~ The Craftsman
ESFP ~ Performer
ISFP ~ The Sculptor

ENFP ~ The Paladin
INFP ~ The Dreamer
ENFJ ~ The Inspirer
INFJ ~ The Oracle

ENTP ~ The Trickster
INTP ~ The Philosopher
ENTJ ~ The Director
INTJ ~ The Innovator

PS: I kept a few of Keirsey's titles

Slightly better, but still biased, imo -- seems like the TJs get office names ("Auditor", "Director"), and the NFs get glorious romantic names ("Paladin", "Oracle").

Also, I dunno if "Opportunist" has the nicest connotation...

Edit: Do the poor ESFPs not deserve a definite article?

 

[Elfboy]

Slightly better, but still biased, imo -- seems like the TJs get office names ("Auditor", "Director")

biased, but, in my opinion, strongly correlated. TJs do well at administration, handling resources etc.

and the NFs get glorious romantic names ("Paladin", "Oracle").

okay, "The Paladin" was pretty damn biased, but seriously, NFs tend to be more up in the clouds romantics.

Also, I dunno if "Opportunist" has the nicest connotation...

it doesn't, but it's an accurate title. personally, I don't consider it an insult. being an opportunist can get you far in life.

Edit: Do the poor ESFPs not deserve a definite article?

fixed

some of the titles were more "glamorous" than others, but that's the reality (glamorous doesn't mean better, it means attention grabbing and dramatic, with which strong type correlations can be made). for instance, "The Supporter" for ISFJ is probably not the most awe inspiring title, but it's what they do, and most ISFJs would tell you
- they agree with me
- they don't have much desire for more glamorous lines of work
- they're proud of it

 

[EJCC]

okay, "The Paladin" was pretty damn biased, but seriously, NFs tend to be more up in the clouds romantics.

Just because they're more romantic, doesn't mean they deserve a more legendary/romantic title. That's where the bias comes from in the first place!

I mean, hell, I'm pretty sure every type glorifies themselves in their imagination somehow. (That's why I suggested "Guardian" as a romantic ESTJ title, not just because it's already been used for ESTJs, but because the idea of fighting for Justice and All That Is Right is something that I feel ESTJs would easily relate to.) So why deprive the rest of us of that glorification, so long as we're giving it to the NFs? You can keep your Paladin title if the rest of us get rough equivalents.

some of the titles were more "glamorous" than others, but that's the reality (glamorous doesn't mean better, it means attention grabbing and dramatic, with which strong type correlations can be made). for instance, "The Supporter" for ISFJ is probably not the most awe inspiring title, but it's what they do, and most ISFJs would tell you
- they agree with me
- they don't have much desire for more glamorous lines of work
- they're proud of it

MBTI type bias usually comes from this sort of reasoning -- i.e. it's fine for these type descriptions and type names to be tonally different, because TECHNICALLY they're still accurate. Nonetheless, as an SJ, I look at the SJ type names and wonder why we got the boring office-job names when everyone else got either dramatic/artsy ones (SP), romantic/"legendary" ones (NF), or epic/"genius" ones (NT). It doesn't matter if NTs are more likely to want intellectual work, or if NFs are more romantic, or if SPs really do all want to work with their hands (which I'm highly skeptical about). From where I see it, the only way to get rid of type bias is to describe each type on equal terms. No one type should be called a legendary figure without every other type being one as well, because no type is more legendary than any other. Otherwise, what you get is: Artists, Craftsmen, Scientific Geniuses, Psychics, Poetic Innovators... and office lackeys. As if NFs, NTs, and SPs couldn't just as easily be office lackeys. (Which is why I referenced the other naming systems posted on the first page, as being more fair: they all have the same "professional" tone, and are thus more fair and equal.)

 

[Elfboy]

Just because they're more romantic, doesn't mean they deserve a more legendary/romantic title. That's where the bias comes from in the first place!
I mean, hell, I'm pretty sure every type glorifies themselves in their imagination somehow. (That's why I suggested "Guardian" as a romantic ESTJ title, not just because it's already been used for ESTJs, but because the idea of fighting for Justice and All That Is Right is something that I feel ESTJs would easily relate to.) So why deprive the rest of us of that glorification, so long as we're giving it to the NFs? You can keep your Paladin title if the rest of us get rough equivalents.
MBTI type bias usually comes from this sort of reasoning -- i.e. it's fine for these type descriptions and type names to be tonally different, because TECHNICALLY they're still accurate. Nonetheless, as an SJ, I look at the SJ type names and wonder why we got the boring office-job names when everyone else got either dramatic/artsy ones (SP), romantic/"legendary" ones (NF), or epic/"genius" ones (NT). It doesn't matter if NTs are more likely to want intellectual work, or if NFs are more romantic, or if SPs really do all want to work with their hands (which I'm highly skeptical about). From where I see it, the only way to get rid of type bias is to describe each type on equal terms. No one type should be called a legendary figure without every other type being one as well, because no type is more legendary than any other. Otherwise, what you get is: Artists, Craftsmen, Scientific Geniuses, Psychics, Poetic Innovators... and office lackeys. As if NFs, NTs, and SPs couldn't just as easily be office lackeys. (Which is why I referenced the other naming systems posted on the first page, as being more fair: they all have the same "professional" tone, and are thus more fair and equal.)

okay, what do you suggest for some SJ titles? (personally, I feel "Guardian" works a little better for ISTJ)

 

[EJCC]

okay, what do you suggest for some SJ titles? (personally, I feel "Guardian" works a little better for ISTJ)

Like I said before: I like the ones on page 1 of the thread, from Eric B and skylights. I'd need to think for a bit to come up with more romanticized ones for SJs.

 

[EJCC]

Okay -- question or debate these if you like. Most were taken from other sources. I couldn't come up with any SP ones (since 99% of existing SP titles are total crap, and I don't have a good understanding of Se at all) -- or a more action-oriented INFP one.

ENTJ: The Commander
ENTP: The Conceptualizer
INTJ: The Strategist
INTP: The Logician

ENFJ: The Motivator/The Inspirer
ENFP: The Advocate
INFJ: The Counselor
INFP: The Idealist

ESFJ: The Benefactor
ESTJ: The Arbiter/The Justice
ISFJ: The Protector
ISTJ: The Sentinel

 

[Thalassa]

Okay -- question or debate these if you like. Most were taken from other sources. I couldn't come up with any SP ones (since 99% of existing SP titles are total crap, and I don't have a good understanding of Se at all) -- or a more action-oriented INFP one.

ENTJ: The Commander
ENTP: The Conceptualizer
INTJ: The Strategist
INTP: The Logician

ENFJ: The Motivator/The Inspirer
ENFP: The Advocate
INFJ: The Counselor
INFP: The Idealist

ESFJ: The Benefactor
ESTJ: The Arbiter/The Justice
ISFJ: The Protector
ISTJ: The Sentinel

I think ISFPs are called "artists" because from a behavioral perspective we're viewed as the "artistic temperament." That's why PTypes calls ISFP the cyclothymic (a nice word for mild bipolar behavior or fits of mania and depression, being moody and up and down) and ambiverted (again, up and down, friendly and social and withdrawn and alone) type. Going out into the world, then going back in to write or paint or sing or something, in some cases just going back to "real life" in less creative ISFPs, after going on adventures. PTypes also says while ISFPs are relationship oriented, they still put relationships, marriage, or children secondary to either their creative pursuits or their freedom. I identify with all of this.

Personality Pages also talks about ISFPs being loyal yet having this inherent need to wander or occasionally break free and run off to Vegas or somethiing.

Keirsey talks about ISFP being a loyal mate, who after raising a family may disappear into the mountains to paint alone after the children are gone.

I like PTypes ISFP the best.

And I'm okay with ISFP being called The Artist for that reason, more so than The Composer, because it's just what people used to call the "artistic temperament" ...passionate, quirky people who tend to run off alone or shut themselves away but still also come out into the world and need people, instead of being entirely solitary.

I also think ESFP Performer is good.

I dispute more the terms like ISTP being called a Mechanic. WTF is that.

 

[SD45T-2]

Okay -- question or debate these if you like. Most were taken from other sources. I couldn't come up with any SP ones (since 99% of existing SP titles are total crap, and I don't have a good understanding of Se at all) -- or a more action-oriented INFP one.

I have an ESTP 6w7 so/sp friend who is totally a promoter. He works for a local politician.

And I'm okay with ISFP being called The Artist for that reason, more so than The Composer, because it's just what people used to call the "artistic temperament" ...passionate, quirky people who tend to run off alone or shut themselves away but still also come out into the world and need people, instead of being entirely solitary.

Sounds about right. In my (somewhat limited) experience, ISFPs tend to be artistic in some field or other, whether it be fashion, music, painting, or whatever.

I also think ESFP Performer is good.

Yeah. I think I know three. Two are performers full time, and the other is part time/as a hobby.

I dispute more the terms like ISTP being called a Mechanic. WTF is that.

My dad is an ISTP and he works in a mechanical field. I have one ISTP firend who is a Construction Mechanic First in the Seabees. I have another ISTP friend who likes to work on cars and make knives. He made his own forge out of a gas grill and a vacuum cleaner.

 

[Kierva]

ENFP ~ The Paladin

Real narcissistic there.

ESTP ~ The Opportunist

You must not like ESTPs very much.

Edit: As for my contribution to this thread, I think that the ESTP one should be changed from Opportunist to Marshal (since they're in the thick of things). ENTJ should be changed to General (since they're the ones that oversee everything). I don't really have a problem with any other names.

ENFPs don't strike me as Paladin-ish. To me Paladins are the champions of the Light, have a strong code of what's right and wrong and they would heal, punish or protect those who fall or don't fall under this code. ENFPs don't strike me as the kind that follow through with their punishments. That title would be more fitting for ESTJs.

Totally generalizing here -- there might be some who follow through and some who don't, but most of the ones I've seen don't because they're too nice.

If anything I think ENFPs should be "Inspirer" or "Bard" or something.

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

Actually it's more like that Ne doms are the opportunists, and the Se doms are the hedonists. lol. Ne is an extremely opportunistic function, more so than Se actually. Though I wouldn't necessarily call all Ne doms opportunists in a negative way though, neither would I view Se doms as all of them being graceful hedonistists. Actually it's very safe to call the ENTP (Ne-Te or just Ne-T) the most adapted at being an opportunist. So calling them that would flatter them, and be kind of negative sounding. So it's a win-win really.

I'd call the ESTJ as the scientist, not the INTJ actually. Most science is conducted in an objective way, and is largely based on materialistic and empirical evidence (sensation). Calling the INTJ a strategist is fine though. IMO.

 

[Elfboy]

Real narcissistic there.

not denying it

You must not like ESTPs very much.

I don't

Edit: As for my contribution to this thread, I think that the ESTP one should be changed from Opportunist to Marshal (since they're in the thick of things). ENTJ should be changed to General (since they're the ones that oversee everything). I don't really have a problem with any other names.

- your ESTP title works
- however, many ENTJs prefer to direct their own systems rather than people (for example, many wealthy stock traders and venture capitalists are ENTJs)

ENFPs don't strike me as Paladin-ish. To me Paladins are the champions of the Light, have a strong code of what's right and wrong and they would heal, punish or protect those who fall or don't fall under this code. ENFPs don't strike me as the kind that follow through with their punishments. That title would be more fitting for ESTJs.
Totally generalizing here -- there might be some who follow through and some who don't, but most of the ones I've seen don't because they're too nice.

- this an ENFP with a 1 fix perfectly. we are generally not the bubbly, conflict avoidant, rainbows & unicorns, goofy entertainer descriptions make us out to be. if you read Jung's descriptions of Ne doms, they tend to be quite aggressive which, coupled with Fi and Te makes many ENFPs ferocious justice fighters.
- nonsense, ENFPs will punish the shit out of you if you cross our values

If anything I think ENFPs should be "Inspirer" or "Bard" or something.

- "Inspirer" is too social
- Bard could easily apply to any NF

 

[Elfboy]

Okay -- question or debate these if you like. Most were taken from other sources. I couldn't come up with any SP ones (since 99% of existing SP titles are total crap, and I don't have a good understanding of Se at all) -- or a more action-oriented INFP one.

ENTJ: The Commander
ENTP: The Conceptualizer
INTJ: The Strategist
INTP: The Logician

ENFJ: The Motivator/The Inspirer
ENFP: The Advocate
INFJ: The Counselor
INFP: The Idealist

ESFJ: The Benefactor
ESTJ: The Arbiter/The Justice
ISFJ: The Protector
ISTJ: The Sentinel

Elfboy approves this message

 

[Kierva]

I don't

You suck.

- this an ENFP with a 1 fix perfectly. we are generally not the bubbly, conflict avoidant, rainbows & unicorns, goofy entertainer descriptions make us out to be. if you read Jung's descriptions of Ne doms, they tend to be quite aggressive which, coupled with Fi and Te makes many ENFPs ferocious justice fighters.

Not all ENFPs are 1s, and it doesn't seem to be a likely combination. 1s to me are usually Js.

Maybe ENFP 1s are like Holy Paladins. Retribution Paladins are ESTJs and Protection Paladins are ISTJs. MAYBE.

- "Inspirer" is too social
- Bard could easily apply to any NF

Maybe.