Jesus Loves Me!

[Totenkindly]

I see that as a balance actually, and that is good, it is as you said so important for them to know that the world doesn't end if they decide faith is not for them, whereas with me (maybe even you) that's not how we saw it, so when we lost faith our entire system crumbled around us and left us feeling empty.

That is what happened with me.

My mom gave me one side, my dad just would never even discuss it; and all I got from my peers was the same side as my mom. And they also basically told me that either I believed in Jesus and the Bible the way they did, or it wasn't Christianity -- so I did not have any room for interpretation. I either had to do it their way, or reject God.

That is a big burden to carry, and I struggle with guilt right now. Have I rejected God? Am I an infidel? Am I misleading people around me? Am I a disappointment to my friends and family?

No one is actively saying all of these things, but it is how I feel inside.

(If I had to guess about my own faith as to where it's at now, I believe in all the same general principles, but without all the specific do's and don'ts of conservative Christianity. I am more interested in how people relate than whether or not a particular thing is accepted or forbidden. And if I am damned for that, well, I cannot get around it.)

I was a bit gung ho, guns a blazing when I first started out, but I see now that I can not impress my lack of faith on them anymore than my ex can impress his faith on them, I must achieve a balance, so that I do not fill them with the same confusion I went through.

Mmm hmm. You want to equip them, I think, so that they can be autonomous and make their own decisions because you will not always be able to be there for them. It is possible that they can find some version of faith that fulfills them and works for them, that would not necessarily be your ex's faith at all.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

That is what happened with me.

My mom gave me one side, my dad just would never even discuss it; and all I got from my peers was the same side as my mom. And they also basically told me that either I believed in Jesus and the Bible the way they did, or it wasn't Christianity -- so I did not have any room for interpretation. I either had to do it their way, or reject God.

That is a big burden to carry, and I struggle with guilt right now. Have I rejected God? Am I an infidel? Am I misleading people around me? Am I a disappointment to my friends and family?

No one is actively saying all of these things, but it is how I feel inside.

(If I had to guess about my own faith as to where it's at now, I believe in all the same general principles, but without all the specific do's and don'ts of conservative Christianity. I am more interested in how people relate than whether or not a particular thing is accepted or forbidden. And if I am damned for that, well, I cannot get around it.)



Mmm hmm. You want to equip them, I think, so that they can be autonomous and make their own decisions because you will not always be able to be there for them. It is possible that they can find some version of faith that fulfills them and works for them, that would not necessarily be your ex's faith at all.

This is slightly irrelevant to the point at hand, though I must say that after I have lost my faith I did not feel empty inside at all. That is because I always have relied strictly on my thinking to carve out my worldview and what others expected of me had little value.

So, what happened when I lost my faith is, I rejected the belief that God is a person and that Jesus is the way to God, yet my general philosophy has hardly changed.

I really don't think that there can be a conflict between reason and faith because nothing escapes the province of reason. If you believe in things on authority (based no faith), its not that you're not using reason, but you're abusing it by believing in things that you have no reason to regard as true.

This will necessarily cause you to be untrue to yourself, if you're are an NT--because you will believe in things that likely go contrary or bypass you're own thinking. If you're an NF because you believe in things that go contrary or bypass your system of values.

Hence, what I suggest is the this;

It is always wrong for anyone to believe anything on insufficient evidence.

I know I am heavily biased towards NTs, though a similar maxim could be applied to the NF perspective. "It is always wrong for anyone to accept anything that they do not feel is congenial."


In the end, I'd say that if you pursue a higher purpose you shouldnt have any of the problems above, there would not be a conflict between what the external standards expect from you and what you expect of yourself. Because then meeting the external standards will be no more than a means to an end, the end of having others leave you alone so you can have the liberty to pursue your higher purpose.

 

[Sahara]

That is what happened with me.

My mom gave me one side, my dad just would never even discuss it; and all I got from my peers was the same side as my mom. And they also basically told me that either I believed in Jesus and the Bible the way they did, or it wasn't Christianity -- so I did not have any room for interpretation. I either had to do it their way, or reject God.

That is a big burden to carry, and I struggle with guilt right now. Have I rejected God? Am I an infidel? Am I misleading people around me? Am I a disappointment to my friends and family?

No one is actively saying all of these things, but it is how I feel inside.

(If I had to guess about my own faith as to where it's at now, I believe in all the same general principles, but without all the specific do's and don'ts of conservative Christianity. I am more interested in how people relate than whether or not a particular thing is accepted or forbidden. And if I am damned for that, well, I cannot get around it.)

Both my parents were very "this way or it's not Islam" and they were right anyway, Islam is very much like that, clear cut, no room for personal interpretations by the lay man so to speak.

So, I always knew that one day I would have to immerse myself completely, which I did much to my dismay and regret (but ah well, whatever lol we live we learn).

The thing where we differ is that it's not that you dislike it entirely, but more that you wish to interpret it how you wish? (am I right), no more do's and don'ts like you said, but you agree with the inner core, maybe jesus's teachings, stuff like that.

I believe in nothing, I do not wish to retain any part of it within me, I see all bad, I dislike what the so called prophet stood for etc, so I have no guilt, no doubt anymore, I don't care if I am an infidel, in fact let me wear that badge with honour, if being a muslim involves all those things I have come to despise, and rejecting them makes me bad, then I don't want to give my faith or love to that kind of god. (wow, why did I start ranting there? lol )

Mmm hmm. You want to equip them, I think, so that they can be autonomous and make their own decisions because you will not always be able to be there for them. It is possible that they can find some version of faith that fulfills them and works for them, that would not necessarily be your ex's faith at all.

Definately, I want to show them ALL the options, teach them all the worldviews I can, and not just one dogmatic "this is the one true religion" thing.

When my son asks me questions I respond with "well, these people believe a b c, and these people believe a b c", etc etc, it certainly keeps them interested, the two boys, especially the eldest, like learning about them all.

I didn't have that, as a muslim I was not allowed to attend RE, nor learn about other religions as a child, so as not to confuse me, and also because other religions are seen as dirty in some way, no need to sully my mind.

The more information they have I am hoping, the better their chance at finding their own niche of faith or lack thereof.

 

[Totenkindly]

I really don't think that there can be a conflict between reason and faith because nothing escapes the province of reason. If you believe in things on authority (based no faith), its not that you're not using reason, but you're abusing it by believing in things that you have no reason to regard as true.

This will necessarily cause you to be untrue to yourself, if you're are an NT--because you will believe in things that likely go contrary or bypass you're own thinking.

Uh huh. That's what happened.

I was being forced to provide lip service to (i.e., claim certainty in) things I could NOT say with certainty.

As far as good and bad actions go: I have seen certain behaviors play out as positive and I think they work and have the best impact in situations, so I can endorse those.

But having to try to somehow defend much of the extraneous details in the Bible that have nothing to do with how I think the world works or simply seem to be inaccurate or ambiguous to me offends my intellectual sensibilities.

Those were the doubts that were hounding me. I hated listening to people pray about God being all these things "for certain" or having people referencing a verse or doing study to support their point of view, because it was not clear to me if those verses in question even were authentic or certain. But reason and experience were not permitted as valid hosts for truth; everything had to be subservient to the verse.

I can't live that way.

The thing where we differ is that it's not that you dislike it entirely, but more that you wish to interpret it how you wish? (am I right), no more do's and don'ts like you said, but you agree with the inner core, maybe jesus's teachings, stuff like that.

Sort of like that. I found a lot that I think is true in Christianity, regardless of how accurate the historical detail of the Bible might be. (But a lot of the bitching is just people arguing over stupid detail.) I believe these things are true because I have experienced them and watched how people interact. So I suppose a lot of my personal morality aligns with Christianity, and I am not going to throw away parts of my own beliefs just because they happen to coincide.[/quote]

I believe in nothing, I do not wish to retain any part of it within me, I see all bad, I dislike what the so called prophet stood for etc, so I have no guilt, no doubt anymore, I don't care if I am an infidel, in fact let me wear that badge with honour, if being a muslim involves all those things I have come to despise, and rejecting them makes me bad, then I don't want to give my faith or love to that kind of god. (wow, why did I start ranting there? lol )

That seems pretty par for the course. You seem to take things on a much deeper personal level than I do, with this, so you just want to push back and push back HARD.

But then again, in some ways, I think you are more abused than I was by your faith system. Most of the pressure on me was indirect; yours was very direct.

 

[The Ü™]

I am pretty certain that Jesus loves me...

...which is why I filed a restraining order against him.