[ISTP] ISTPs-do you balk at basic expectations from others?

[MonkeyGrass]

I'm married to an ISTP, and being really duty-driven myself, I cannot wrap my head around his reaction to basic expectations (if someone who rarely cries is bawling, hug them. If a baby is crying, pick it up. If someone says, "hi", saying "hi" back is generally considered polite. That kind of thing.)

Is my husband just a royal jackass? Or is there some element I'm not taking into account here? A reasonable side that could be appealed to? I'm generally willing to lower my expectations, but it seems like no matter how far they're lowered, it gets taken down a rung or two further.

What I'm sure feels to him is logical energy conservation seems downright inconsiderate and cold to me. To the point that I'm getting fairly bitter about it. It's possible I'm being a jackass about it, and not realizing.

 

[jixmixfix]

Well being an INFJ you're probably high off Fe, so don't expect that from someone who lacks Fe, just saying. I don't think it's basic expectations he lacks but probably general rules of kindness. aka Fe, so don't get hung up over it so much he's probably still a good guy.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Yeah...cruelty is never a vibe I've gotten from him. Whenever I end up really coming apart, he seems genuinely concerned and surprised, obviously not being neglectful intentionally.

Lots to think about. I'm starting to consider the possibility that I might be an ENFj, not INFj...but I've been contorting as best I can to make us a better "fit", for almost a decade, really. It's a little exhausting. When I start feeling hyper relational, I can sense every hair on his body standing on end. Likely because I'm expressing an enthusiastic need for inspirational connection, and that's...just not cool for him. Eh.

 

[Fidelia]

I don't know. Those things sound like basic respect and consideration for other people. I don't think personality should be used as a scapegoat for bad behaviour. Has it always been this way? What attracted you to him in the first place?

 

[Nocapszy]

the element you're leaving out is the person who raised him.

believe it or not, it's not an inherently natural reaction for a person to hug someone who's crying, and the same goes for the other two examples you brought up.
what might seem natural to you might not be an innate constituent of the human condition.
you were trained that way. he wasn't.

also, i know i'll get flamed for sexism here, but the fact of the matter is this: men and women react differently to things.
that's as true by nature as it is by nurture.

 

[Randomnity]

I'm married to an ISTP, and being really duty-driven myself, I cannot wrap my head around his reaction to basic expectations (if someone who rarely cries is bawling, hug them. If a baby is crying, pick it up. If someone says, "hi", saying "hi" back is generally considered polite. That kind of thing.)

Is my husband just a royal jackass? Or is there some element I'm not taking into account here? A reasonable side that could be appealed to? I'm generally willing to lower my expectations, but it seems like no matter how far they're lowered, it gets taken down a rung or two further.

What I'm sure feels to him is logical energy conservation seems downright inconsiderate and cold to me. To the point that I'm getting fairly bitter about it. It's possible I'm being a jackass about it, and not realizing.

A really important question is if you've asked him to do these things, either as a personal favour or "it's polite, dear"? And then helped him remember somehow, without overwhelming him with a million things he's doing "wrong" all at once? And been reasonable in your expectations given that he's not in the habit of doing these things? (he can't go from zero to perfect overnight! and why is he the one that must change?) What seems obvious to one person with certain personality traits and a certain upbringing will not at all be obvious to every other person in the world....often, there is even disagreement on the "proper" social niceties, not just presence or absence!

For me, I wasn't raised by wolves or anything, but I'm not aware of the most socially correct thing to do in many situations either, and I usually don't waste much time worrying about it until it causes a problem. Another thing is that many strong introverts, especially men, actually prefer to be left alone when they're upset, so they may not realize that "SO upset = comfort her!"

I think it's more likely that he's being oblivious than deliberately abstaining. Not that this helps you get your needs met - seriously though, have you tried asking?

 

[ubiquitous1]

I'm married to an ISTP, and being really duty-driven myself, I cannot wrap my head around his reaction to basic expectations (if someone who rarely cries is bawling, hug them. If a baby is crying, pick it up. If someone says, "hi", saying "hi" back is generally considered polite. That kind of thing.)

Is my husband just a royal jackass? Or is there some element I'm not taking into account here? A reasonable side that could be appealed to? I'm generally willing to lower my expectations, but it seems like no matter how far they're lowered, it gets taken down a rung or two further.

What I'm sure feels to him is logical energy conservation seems downright inconsiderate and cold to me. To the point that I'm getting fairly bitter about it. It's possible I'm being a jackass about it, and not realizing.

Having been married to an ISTP for 19 years, I totally relate to how you feel.
What worked for me was first to realize his "coolness" was something that I initially found attractive. However, over the years I turned that attractive attribute into an unattractive one, simply by focusing on circumstances where his coolness was not appropriate (to me) rather than focusing on when it was appropriate and appreciating it.

 

[Orangey]

I'm married to an ISTP, and being really duty-driven myself, I cannot wrap my head around his reaction to basic expectations (if someone who rarely cries is bawling, hug them. If a baby is crying, pick it up. If someone says, "hi", saying "hi" back is generally considered polite. That kind of thing.)

I mean, in these situations, are you upset that he does nothing at all, or that he isn't doing the "correct" thing? Because I can imagine a lot of people (myself included) who wouldn't react to a crying person by hugging them, especially guys. But they would usually attempt to do something. For instance, I might ask them questions about the problem(s) they're having, or try to cheer them up in some other way that doesn't require physical contact. Does he even try?

 

[MonkeyGrass]

A really important question is if you've asked him to do these things, either as a personal favour or "it's polite, dear"? And then helped him remember somehow, without overwhelming him with a million things he's doing "wrong" all at once? And been reasonable in your expectations given that he's not in the habit of doing these things? (he can't go from zero to perfect overnight! and why is he the one that must change?) What seems obvious to one person with certain personality traits and a certain upbringing will not at all be obvious to every other person in the world....often, there is even disagreement on the "proper" social niceties, not just presence or absence!

I've definitely boiled it down to really simple, clearly communicated favor-requests over the years. Occasionally, I *do* completely come unglued, to my discredit, mostly because I'm raising 3 young children right now...it gets stressful. The thing that sparked this question, actually was my having a bad case of the flu for a week, being up with a sick toddler every night (losing sleep), and not having any help getting the older kids to bed, even though I was exhausted to tears and literally begging and feverish and coughing my head off. Turns out, he felt that his extra hour of work a night this week made him feel like we were equally "tired" and in the same boat. It's like he lacks the ability to gauge the trouble of others when he's in even a little discomfort...I wondered if that be an SP related thing.

Ubiquitous...thanks.

fidelia- He's actually a really lovely person. When he's really trying to connect (meaning, his problem solving energy is really activated, which happens somewhat regularly), he'll move heaven and earth to make you feel good. This usually plays out in some sensual, experiential way. He tends to follow the cues of *others* well when it comes to compassion, so, when a friend points out that I'm looking tired, or my midwife has given him stern instructions to baby me, or sometimes if my daughter points out that I need help, he'll pull out all the stops. Your room gets filled with wild flowers, good food is made, your back is rubbed, etc. *BUT*, it takes quite a lot for him to be roused out of energy conservation mode to actually do those things.

Cappie- his parents are pretty stoic. He spent time at boarding school/grandparents houses as a child for their careers, and they all tend to hold one another at arm's length, emotionally. His dad is especially inaccessible, emotionally...in dh's words: a mystery wrapped in an enigma. That's a good thing to keep in mind, thanks.

 

[Orangey]

Hmmm, now that you've been more specific, I don't know if any of that has anything to do with being an SP. I always feel an obligation to do whatever it takes to make things function overall, even if it means having to go above and beyond what I may have expected to do. And being in a state of discomfort does nothing to deter me from detecting the need to help out. In fact, it almost gives me a sort of "look at how gallant I am" thrill.

What you described in the first paragraph sounds like plain selfishness, and I'd be angry too.

 

[Randomnity]

I've definitely boiled it down to really simple, clearly communicated favor-requests over the years. Occasionally, I *do* completely come unglued, to my discredit, mostly because I'm raising 3 young children right now...it gets stressful. The thing that sparked this question, actually was my having a bad case of the flu for a week, being up with a sick toddler every night (losing sleep), and not having any help getting the older kids to bed, even though I was exhausted to tears and literally begging and feverish and coughing my head off. Turns out, he felt that his extra hour of work a night this week made him feel like we were equally "tired" and in the same boat. It's like he lacks the ability to gauge the trouble of others when he's in even a little discomfort...I wondered if that be an SP related thing.

Sorry, I didn't intend to ignore your side of things, I got caught up in the possible explanations.

That isn't right. He needs a talking-to, then. I've heard that it can be a common thing for men to just dump all the responsibility of kids on the mom because he works a lot, but being common doesn't make it right.

Back to explanations, it's true that for me, when I'm tired and stressed out, I'll tend to be much less considerate, helpful, polite etc, just because those really do take a lot of energy especially during those times (truly, isn't everyone like that? or at least introverts/thinkers/introverted thinkers? I'm not sure this is an SP thing at all...). BUT it's still not fair for him not to help out when asked, even if he might not notice on his own that you need help right away.

 

[Poki]

The first couple of years I actually took over alot of the parenting when it comes to waking up, feeding, taking care of him when sick. Recently its been more of an equal split, but I will always take my son, allow my ex(even when she was my wife) to unwind, relax, and I still do to this day. My ex was always the responsible one for actually keeping track of all the doctor, medical stuff, appointments, things that needed to get done, etc. Its a divide and conquer thing. What parts does he actually do when it comes to parenting?

I am not good at the Hello, Goodbye, Small, etc. at all and that is probably one of my biggest issues when it comes to people around me. Im not a big people person in this sense.

 

[Bamboo]

I think I know better than to walk into the path of a loaded question.

There is no "correct" way of acting. It's up to you two to find standards of behavior that you can agree to. Make these standards clear - they are not inherent to being human. If he cannot perform those to your standards, then go on from there.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

My first question was how old is he? Because I think that has a lot to do with emotional reactivity in an ISTP. Along with experiences, of course.

I've mentioned it before but it took me until I was about 25 to realize "hi" and "how are you?" required an answer. Seriously. Light-bulb moment. I don't do small talk and I didn't "get" that was important to people or how most people connected. He's not intentionally being a jackass it's just not something he is attuned to. It's not on his mind or important to him as it is to you. Mastery of social cues are not high on our list of things to work on.

I like Randominity's first post about how to approach and talk to him about it. It can get better but in order for it to get better he has to understand what problems his non-reactions are causing and he has to care about the effect it is having.

Be patient with him. Even if an ISTP does try it's not something that ever feels natural. Think about something that he does very well. Now think if he came to you and asked you to do it. Or got angry with you because you couldn't do it to his satisfaction. It wouldn't help. It would be nice to have him guiding your way, right? So don't be bitter. Be his guide.

If he cares about you he will attempt to become more aware of his reactions but be able to compromise on this issue because it is something that takes a lot of time and work on our parts and even when we have worked on it it might not meet to an NF standard.

 

[Santosha]

I'm married to an ISTP, and being really duty-driven myself, I cannot wrap my head around his reaction to basic expectations (if someone who rarely cries is bawling, hug them. If a baby is crying, pick it up. If someone says, "hi", saying "hi" back is generally considered polite. That kind of thing.)

Is my husband just a royal jackass? Or is there some element I'm not taking into account here? A reasonable side that could be appealed to? I'm generally willing to lower my expectations, but it seems like no matter how far they're lowered, it gets taken down a rung or two further.

What I'm sure feels to him is logical energy conservation seems downright inconsiderate and cold to me. To the point that I'm getting fairly bitter about it. It's possible I'm being a jackass about it, and not realizing.

MonkeyGrass,
I know EXACTLY what your talking about. I have been with my ISTP for 4 yrs now. Before getting really into mbti, I too thought he was a jerk. (Still do from time to time.) I now realize that its simply a difference of expressing love.. but I have ALSO realized that, especially as a feeler.. the relation may be too much of a struggle, *for me personally*.

In hindsight, I sometimes can't believe that I had been so blind to carry on with such incompatibility. That socionics duality deal is a bunch of crap. It says ENFP/ISTP relations are the most ideal.. not in my case! (Though the typing is mbti, not socioncs so maybe theres a difference?)

Anyhow, I just wanted to tell you that some of the things you mention have rang in my mind many many times, verbatum. Like "I'm generally willing to lower my expectations, but it seems like no matter how far they're lowered, it gets taken down a rung or two further."

Some things I've noticed, and this could be stereotypical or could just be us.. is that
when under alot of stress I can become pretty demanding for emotional support. I need those words of affirmation, support, guidance, more than ever. And when I do this, he totally disappears. Sure, he might be in the same room, but he will not talk, not respond, absolutely nada. It's ONLY when I lay off of him, expect nothing, require nothing, that he comes to life and acts more caring. Its really bizarre!

Part of what drew me to my ISTP is the fact that he seemed so emotionally disconnected. I thought (stupidly) that the ONLY way someone could be like this is from some past hurt, disapointment, rejection etc.. So heres me.. this passionate, warm, open, loyal ENFP.. and I'm going to save him. I'm going to show him that not all people are shit. It's okay to show your feelings and put yourself out on a limb. Not everyone will screw you over. Little did I know at the time that there was nothing in his past that shut him down. His mom and dad are great, loving people. He was a spoiled rotten only child. Its a simple personality preference. Wish I knew then what I know now.

 

[WALMART]

Doing the "right" thing can be ultra weird for me.

A well loved friend of mine, after years of nondisclosure, told me what had transpired in her life that ate her insides daily. I froze in thought.

About a year later we were arguing, and she told me my reaction to her was if she'd told me what she ate for breakfast.

I explained my rationale for acting the way I did, and she understood.... but what did she think of me between the two events? What impact did that have on our relationship? I don't, and likely will never know.

We're cold people.

 

[Giggly]

Doing the "right" thing can be ultra weird for me.

A well loved friend of mine, after years of nondisclosure, told me what had transpired in her life that ate her insides daily. I froze in thought.

About a year later we were arguing, and she told me my reaction to her was if she'd told me what she ate for breakfast.

I explained my rationale for acting the way I did, and she understood.... but what did she think of me between the two events? What impact did that have on our relationship? I don't, and likely will never know.

We're cold people.

I had a similar experience with an istp once. It launches you into an emotional roller coaster.

 

[WALMART]

I had a similar experience with an istp once. It launches you into an emotional roller coaster.

Yeah.


Sigh.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Something like 1/3 of the forum types me ISTP, so my opinion should have at least 33% value.

Anyway, indeed, it is rudeness, and just a complete lack of care for that matter, but if someone simply doesn't care, not only will they not 'help' you, but more importantly, they will not 'hurt' you either, but rather they will remain apathetic (if you are not their problem, then why after all should they be your problem?).

So in essence, the fault lies just as much with people's ignorant reactions to non-hostile ISTP's asocial behavior (or IxTxs in general for that matter) as with the IT's lack of affection.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Doing the "right" thing can be ultra weird for me.

A well loved friend of mine, after years of nondisclosure, told me what had transpired in her life that ate her insides daily. I froze in thought.

About a year later we were arguing, and she told me my reaction to her was if she'd told me what she ate for breakfast.

I explained my rationale for acting the way I did, and she understood.... but what did she think of me between the two events? What impact did that have on our relationship? I don't, and likely will never know.

We're cold people.

See, this isn't cold to me at all. I don't see myself or the other two ISTPs I know ( work in a shop together) as cold at all. Quite opposite actually. It's very easy to see when they are upset (all in the eyes/mouth) but I can see others not clued in.

There have been times at work that I just received some really terrible news. I felt shaken and very disturbed. Like my whole body was vibrating with emotion. Yet, people would approach and start conversations without skipping a step.

I was amazed that they couldn't tell and it made me very short and sharp with them and that's first hand feeling. So hearing someone else's troubles would likely get an internal "check" but maybe not outward expression.

Anyway, not cold at all. Very self contained or detached. There's a difference.