[ISTJ] ISTJ's ... Egoistic?

[OregonENFP]

I don't think they TRY to do it. I think it just kind of... happens. They do it without even knowing it. I don't even know if "control" is a good word for this. Personally, I've never "controlled" anyone before, but I do know xSTJ's that have and it's mostly the annoying or "unhealthy" ones [not to worry Oregon, I'm sure he just doesn't realize what he's doing], I think. In my opinion the ESTJ's are especially good at controlling people, but a few ISTJ's can do it too I guess.

But letting them continue to do it just lets them think "oh, well, everything is ok s/he doesn't seem to mind." When in reality, the other person is really annoyed/hurting emotionally.

If I EVER was in a situation where I was "controlling" someone, I would want to know immediately, so I could stop. The LAST thing I would want to do is control somone, I can barely control myself!

Bottom line: YOU MUST COMMUNICATE IN BLUNT TERMS WITH YOUR ISTJ WHAT YOUR EMOTIONS ARE! If you do this, it will solve and prevent lots of problems! ESPECIALLY if your an ENFP!

I really like your posts! I think he knows he's controlling, however. I don't think it's a mystery to him. He likes to ask me if I will do what he says.

You said I must communicate in BLUNT TERMS. I do this and I think this is sometimes where we get in the original arguments because I will say that I feel hurt when he says ...Blank... and he will sometimes get upset because he feels attacked. This is often how our arguments have gone. Other reasons we argue is that I have been very jealous and he doesn't understand why. Basically all in all it's always me getting my feelings hurt in one way or another which is why we argue.

Sometimes.... we argue because he's gotten frustrated at my lack of 'jumping when he says jump' when I frankly don't find it necessary to do so. For example, when planning a trip he wanted me to rent the hotel in a very quiet town with TONS of rooms everywhere and no events coming up and every hotel in town had hundreds of avail rooms RIGHT THAT SECOND literally weeks before. I mean, he wanted it done YESTERDAY. I sort of didn't take this very seriously and did it at my own speed which was nearly right before we were going to go. OMG, he flipped out. I learned my lesson with that one. It's things like this that gets him super upset. When I don't see the urgency in the timing of things the way he does. To him, everything needs to be planned and discussed wayyy ahead of time.

 

[OregonENFP]

I can say this is exactly how it feels

that's the problem...it's a constant power struggle. he wants to lead. he thinks he knows best. you want to be left alone to do things your way so your constantly bumping heads...and it never ends....ahhhh!

This is absolutely how it feels.

 

[Tiltyred]

Oregon, it's not you.

ISTJ Relationships

When faced with criticism, the ISTJ is likely to believe that their point of view is correct. They have a tremendous amount of respect for Facts, and base their opinions on known facts and logic. Consequently, they have a hard time seeing the viability of viewpoints which don't match their own. When the ISTJ gets involved in a disagreement over a point, they usually begin to attempt to recruit the other person over to their own point of view, fully believing that they are right, and that the other individual simply needs to understand the facts of the situation. In such situations, the ISTJ may or may not be right, but their confidence in their own "rightness" can shake the confidence of others involved. This habit can quickly turn conversations into "win-lose" situations, and can present a special problem in intimate relationships. While they may inadvertantly shake the confidence of their colleagues with their "I'm right" approach, the same behavior may cause serious issues within their intimate relationships. The ISTJ's constant assertion of "rightness" may send a message to their mates that they do not value their opinions. If the ISTJ has a mate with a strong Feeling preference, they may inadvertantly wreak havoc with their self-esteem, since Feeling individuals are extremely sensitive to conflict and criticism, and are especially vulnerable in their intimate relationships.

Can you let him be in charge of the reservations next time? (If he asks you to do it, you can just say you'd rather he did.)

One of my bosses is an ISTJ and especially under stress, she contradicts every single thing I say, and nothing I do is good enough. It's very hard to live with.

But the advantages of an ISTJ are many, too. Don't forget to see the bright side...

 

[Cimarron]

Yeah, I was going to say, under stress I can get that way.

Wow, good follow-up posts, Shadow. They make good points, if we give him the benefit of the doubt. And it generally works out, because most people don't intentionally mean harm.

 

[Giggly]

Good question. I guess more serious issues have come up lately. Like making a real commitment and there are some serious 'issues' we've been discussing.

I see. Well, good luck, sweetie.

 

[Shadow]

I really like your posts! I think he knows he's controlling, however. I don't think it's a mystery to him. He likes to ask me if I will do what he says.

You said I must communicate in BLUNT TERMS. I do this and I think this is sometimes where we get in the original arguments because I will say that I feel hurt when he says ...Blank... and he will sometimes get upset because he feels attacked. This is often how our arguments have gone. Other reasons we argue is that I have been very jealous and he doesn't understand why. Basically all in all it's always me getting my feelings hurt in one way or another which is why we argue.

Sometimes.... we argue because he's gotten frustrated at my lack of 'jumping when he says jump' when I frankly don't find it necessary to do so. For example, when planning a trip he wanted me to rent the hotel in a very quiet town with TONS of rooms everywhere and no events coming up and every hotel in town had hundreds of avail rooms RIGHT THAT SECOND literally weeks before. I mean, he wanted it done YESTERDAY. I sort of didn't take this very seriously and did it at my own speed which was nearly right before we were going to go. OMG, he flipped out. I learned my lesson with that one. It's things like this that gets him super upset. When I don't see the urgency in the timing of things the way he does. To him, everything needs to be planned and discussed wayyy ahead of time.

Heh, I have to say that I can relate to him in your final paragraph. I've already got a table reservation in a popular restaurant booked for July, and I'm going 'backpacking' around Eastern Europe with friends over summer, but whereas most people just turn up at hostels on a whim I'm going to book every night up in April. It's better safe than sorry, plus you get cheap deals. I'm like the official holiday organiser.

As regards your first paragraph, I can understand his defensiveness, I find that's the main cause of arguments with my family. I think a large part of it is he won't understand why you feel hurt by things he's said or done and then feels angry at himself for making you feel like this, and responds by lashing out verbally, and similarly when you're jealous he probably doesn't know what he's done that makes him seem untrustworthy to you, especially if like most ISTJs his trustworthiness is a keystone of his identity. I know that I'm fairly quick to cool down if you let me simmer after an argument; what does he do? It just takes a bit of processing to realise that it's not a personal attack, but then I'd likely sulk for a while.
I do think being honest about the way you're feeling, although maybe more tactful than blunt in this case because he hasn't been proven to have done anything wrong, is the best policy. But once he's told you his point of view, move on. If he thinks he's sorted it with you he's probably got over the anger already.

EDIT: Conversely, if you're ever pretty much certain he's cheating on you, maybe do a bit of evidence gathering. Cover your tracks well though...you really wouldn't want him to know what you'd been doing if he was totally innocent. Then you can confront him with hardcore facts, and you know we love those

 

[Shadow]

Oregon, it's not you.

ISTJ Relationships

When faced with criticism, the ISTJ is likely to believe that their point of view is correct. They have a tremendous amount of respect for Facts, and base their opinions on known facts and logic. Consequently, they have a hard time seeing the viability of viewpoints which don't match their own. When the ISTJ gets involved in a disagreement over a point, they usually begin to attempt to recruit the other person over to their own point of view, fully believing that they are right, and that the other individual simply needs to understand the facts of the situation. In such situations, the ISTJ may or may not be right, but their confidence in their own "rightness" can shake the confidence of others involved. This habit can quickly turn conversations into "win-lose" situations, and can present a special problem in intimate relationships. While they may inadvertantly shake the confidence of their colleagues with their "I'm right" approach, the same behavior may cause serious issues within their intimate relationships. The ISTJ's constant assertion of "rightness" may send a message to their mates that they do not value their opinions. If the ISTJ has a mate with a strong Feeling preference, they may inadvertantly wreak havoc with their self-esteem, since Feeling individuals are extremely sensitive to conflict and criticism, and are especially vulnerable in their intimate relationships.

Can you let him be in charge of the reservations next time? (If he asks you to do it, you can just say you'd rather he did.)

One of my bosses is an ISTJ and especially under stress, she contradicts every single thing I say, and nothing I do is good enough. It's very hard to live with.

But the advantages of an ISTJ are many, too. Don't forget to see the bright side...

Sadly, I do recognise that in myself sometimes. I'd love to know why some people provoke me more than others though. I only ever argue with people who are close to me as well, which is quite sad, because they're likely the people I care about.

 

[Blackmail!]

I'd say ISTJs as a whole are not egoistic, they just... don't understand other people, and nor are they really willing to. When a self-sacrifice is needed, the ISTJs I know will always come forward. Their lives seem to be organized only around the concept of "duty", and how to fulfill tasks in the most efficient way, especially for the people they care the most (and they do care, deeply).

According to my own experience, there's no way you could ever convince an ISTJ (s)he's wrong, but that doesn't mean (s)he's utterly selfish and self-centered. Even if their outside appearances are as cold as ice. They're just relentlessly stubborn, since they rely on their own past experiences first (Si-dom), and thus are often persuaded to do your own good in the best possible way, even if they contradict you.

 

[Shaula]

He does VERY MUCH like to be in control. More than any human being I know. Even to the point where he tries to get me to stop wearing make up and so fourth.

Then he's an asshole. No offense. Other than this it seems (because I can only make assumptions at this point) that he is confused of how his behaviour is affecting your feelings but the same can be said for you. He seems irked by your lack of awareness to his routine/need for order and may interpret this as a form of disrespect. ISTJs tend to take things at face value and are probably the first to point fingers at people when something goes wrong. Anyway, his response to this issue may have resulted in more controling behaviour, premeditated or not. It's common for ISTJs to force things to their will when in a hard spot but he needs to learn alternative, healthy methods for dealing with the problems at hand.

According to my own experience, there's no way you could ever convince an ISTJ (s)he's wrong, but that doesn't mean (s)he's utterly selfish and self-centered. Even if their outside appearances are as cold as ice. They're just relentlessly stubborn, since they rely on their own past experience first (Si-dom), and thus are often persuaded to do your own good in the best possible way, even if they contradict you.

I've been able to persuade ISTJs that they are wrong but it took years for me to develop the skill. I try not to 'accuse' them or 'attack' them instead I like to inquire about their reasoning so I can determine how to form my argument in a way that is not confrontational to them. If they are able to follow my logic and see that my way is more efficient then they usually change their mind. If not they will contradict me with facts that support their point of view. "But what about that time when... blah, blah, blah... that's inconsistent with what you're trying to tell me! And that makes you wrong." Also try giving them time to steam off after a fight before talking things out. That's worked well for me too.

 

[d@v3]

I really like your posts! I think he knows he's controlling, however. I don't think it's a mystery to him. He likes to ask me if I will do what he says.

You said I must communicate in BLUNT TERMS. I do this and I think this is sometimes where we get in the original arguments because I will say that I feel hurt when he says ...Blank... and he will sometimes get upset because he feels attacked. This is often how our arguments have gone. Other reasons we argue is that I have been very jealous and he doesn't understand why. Basically all in all it's always me getting my feelings hurt in one way or another which is why we argue.

Sometimes.... we argue because he's gotten frustrated at my lack of 'jumping when he says jump' when I frankly don't find it necessary to do so. For example, when planning a trip he wanted me to rent the hotel in a very quiet town with TONS of rooms everywhere and no events coming up and every hotel in town had hundreds of avail rooms RIGHT THAT SECOND literally weeks before. I mean, he wanted it done YESTERDAY. I sort of didn't take this very seriously and did it at my own speed which was nearly right before we were going to go. OMG, he flipped out. I learned my lesson with that one. It's things like this that gets him super upset. When I don't see the urgency in the timing of things the way he does. To him, everything needs to be planned and discussed wayyy ahead of time.

I'm going to try my best not to rant ...:

I'm not going to lie, this guy sounds like he would piss me off-rather quickly.

Are you SURE he is an ISTJ? It isn't your fault at all if what you are saying is accurate. Perhaps I am being a little hasty with these judgements (and I do apologize if I am), but from what I understand:

-He sounds very narrowminded
-He sounds very... self conceited
-He sounds like he has a short temper
-He seems to be a control freak
-He seems to want to treat you like a child
-He sounds insecure
-He doesn't sound like he is very "gentleman like" to you
-He shows no (or little) respect for others (and/or especially you)

Jump when he says jump? WTF? That just makes me want to punch him in the face! I don't know why, but really? He actually tells you to jump? Does he tell you to eat too?

Cimarron has a point, he could be stressed, but even then, there is no reason to be this crazy about control. You are human being, not a pet!

 

[Shadow]

I'm going to try my best not to rant ...:

I'm not going to lie, this guy sounds like he would piss me off-rather quickly.

Are you SURE he is an ISTJ? It isn't your fault at all if what you are saying is accurate. Perhaps I am being a little hasty with these judgements (and I do apologize if I am), but from what I understand:

-He sounds very narrowminded
-He sounds very... self conceited
-He sounds like he has a short temper
-He seems to be a control freak
-He seems to want to treat you like a child
-He sounds insecure
-He doesn't sound like he is very "gentleman like" to you
-He shows no (or little) respect for others (and/or especially you)

Jump when he says jump? WTF? That just makes me want to punch him in the face! I don't know why, but really? He actually tells you to jump? Does he tell you to eat too?

Cimarron has a point, he could be stressed, but even then, there is no reason to be this crazy about control. You are human being, not a pet!

I think he sounds ISTJ, personally, just not the best demonstration of one. He evidently has control issues, but any type can get fucked-up along the way.
I do think, Oregon, that you should let him know how disrespected you feel about him trying to control your life and actions. If he's a decent person he will feel shame and should stop. If he doesn't, do you really want to be this controlled?

 

[Lady_X]

Oregon, it's not you.

ISTJ Relationships

When faced with criticism, the ISTJ is likely to believe that their point of view is correct. They have a tremendous amount of respect for Facts, and base their opinions on known facts and logic. Consequently, they have a hard time seeing the viability of viewpoints which don't match their own. When the ISTJ gets involved in a disagreement over a point, they usually begin to attempt to recruit the other person over to their own point of view, fully believing that they are right, and that the other individual simply needs to understand the facts of the situation. In such situations, the ISTJ may or may not be right, but their confidence in their own "rightness" can shake the confidence of others involved. This habit can quickly turn conversations into "win-lose" situations, and can present a special problem in intimate relationships. While they may inadvertantly shake the confidence of their colleagues with their "I'm right" approach, the same behavior may cause serious issues within their intimate relationships. The ISTJ's constant assertion of "rightness" may send a message to their mates that they do not value their opinions. If the ISTJ has a mate with a strong Feeling preference, they may inadvertantly wreak havoc with their self-esteem, since Feeling individuals are extremely sensitive to conflict and criticism, and are especially vulnerable in their intimate relationships.

Can you let him be in charge of the reservations next time? (If he asks you to do it, you can just say you'd rather he did.)

One of my bosses is an ISTJ and especially under stress, she contradicts every single thing I say, and nothing I do is good enough. It's very hard to live with.

But the advantages of an ISTJ are many, too. Don't forget to see the bright side...

wow...that's a great post. so true.

 

[Shaula]

Are you SURE he is an ISTJ? It isn't your fault at all if what you are saying is accurate. Perhaps I am being a little hasty with these judgements (and I do apologize if I am), but from what I understand:

-He sounds very narrowminded
-He sounds very... self conceited
-He sounds like he has a short temper
-He seems to be a control freak
-He seems to want to treat you like a child
-He sounds insecure
-He doesn't sound like he is very "gentleman like" to you
-He shows no (or little) respect for others (and/or especially you)

This depicts the image of an immature ISTJ.

I do think, Oregon, that you should let him know how disrespected you feel about him trying to control your life and actions. If he's a decent person he will feel shame and should stop. If he doesn't, do you really want to be this controlled?

Yes the relationship is still workable if he is willing to make the effort to change. Otherwise don't waste any more time on him, don't take his crap, because you are a better person than that. Don't fool yourself into staying in an unhealthy relationship because of the ideation that love will overcome or that one day he'll change his mind. I say this as many fall into that trap. It's a shame really.

 

[kiddykat]

OregonENFP girl,

Our best match is someone who jives well with us no? Communication is more at ease? Similar to yours, I had relationships where each step felt like tug-of-war. I also had relationships where things just flowed like dat. So I know when something feels really really good or, extremely mal. I choose the one that I feel most content in.

Running into the right person isn't easy..

I feel your pain.. Esteem-wise, I think, once we get to the point in relationships where it feels like it brings us down, not up, I think it's really time to re-evaluate whether or not it's worth it?

 

[OregonENFP]

Oregon, it's not you.

ISTJ Relationships

When faced with criticism, the ISTJ is likely to believe that their point of view is correct. They have a tremendous amount of respect for Facts, and base their opinions on known facts and logic. Consequently, they have a hard time seeing the viability of viewpoints which don't match their own. When the ISTJ gets involved in a disagreement over a point, they usually begin to attempt to recruit the other person over to their own point of view, fully believing that they are right, and that the other individual simply needs to understand the facts of the situation. In such situations, the ISTJ may or may not be right, but their confidence in their own "rightness" can shake the confidence of others involved. This habit can quickly turn conversations into "win-lose" situations, and can present a special problem in intimate relationships. While they may inadvertantly shake the confidence of their colleagues with their "I'm right" approach, the same behavior may cause serious issues within their intimate relationships. The ISTJ's constant assertion of "rightness" may send a message to their mates that they do not value their opinions. If the ISTJ has a mate with a strong Feeling preference, they may inadvertantly wreak havoc with their self-esteem, since Feeling individuals are extremely sensitive to conflict and criticism, and are especially vulnerable in their intimate relationships.

Can you let him be in charge of the reservations next time? (If he asks you to do it, you can just say you'd rather he did.)

One of my bosses is an ISTJ and especially under stress, she contradicts every single thing I say, and nothing I do is good enough. It's very hard to live with.

But the advantages of an ISTJ are many, too. Don't forget to see the bright side...

Thank you, TiltyRed. It's good to know it's not me and I like being shown that particular information about ISTJ's. I think it's so true that it does somehow affect my self-esteem. I find myself 'questioning' myself a lot lately more than usual.

 

[OregonENFP]

Great insight!!!

As regards your first paragraph, I can understand his defensiveness, I find that's the main cause of arguments with my family. I think a large part of it is he won't understand why you feel hurt by things he's said or done and then feels angry at himself for making you feel like this, and responds by lashing out verbally, and similarly when you're jealous he probably doesn't know what he's done that makes him seem untrustworthy to you, especially if like most ISTJs his trustworthiness is a keystone of his identity. I know that I'm fairly quick to cool down if you let me simmer after an argument; what does he do? It just takes a bit of processing to realise that it's not a personal attack, but then I'd likely sulk for a while.
I do think being honest about the way you're feeling, although maybe more tactful than blunt in this case because he hasn't been proven to have done anything wrong, is the best policy. But once he's told you his point of view, move on. If he thinks he's sorted it with you he's probably got over the anger already.

EDIT: Conversely, if you're ever pretty much certain he's cheating on you, maybe do a bit of evidence gathering. Cover your tracks well though...you really wouldn't want him to know what you'd been doing if he was totally innocent. Then you can confront him with hardcore facts, and you know we love those

Shadow,

It's so cool you can relate to the 'planning' side of his personality.

When you said "I think a large part of it is he won't understand why you feel hurt by things he's said or done and then feels angry at himself for making you feel like this, and responds by lashing out verbally, and similarly when you're jealous he probably doesn't know what he's done that makes him seem untrustworthy to you, especially if like most ISTJs his trustworthiness is a keystone of his identity." It really hit home because it makes me understand how he feels. He does not understand AT ALL why he seems untrustworthy to me. And trustworthiness is a HUGE part of his personality. In fact, that's probably the reason he's so upset. I think he takes it as an assult on his personality!

I know for a FACT he is NOT cheating on me. We spend soooo much time talking that there's no way he could be. Plus, he's not the type. I just know for a fact he is not. So no worries there.

I really like your views and the way you made me see this a bit differently! Thank you.

 

[OregonENFP]

Thanks for your reply!!

OregonENFP girl,

Our best match is someone who jives well with us no? Communication is more at ease? Similar to yours, I had relationships where each step felt like tug-of-war. I also had relationships where things just flowed like dat. So I know when something feels really really good or, extremely mal. I choose the one that I feel most content in.

Running into the right person isn't easy..

I feel your pain.. Esteem-wise, I think, once we get to the point in relationships where it feels like it brings us down, not up, I think it's really time to re-evaluate whether or not it's worth it?

Ok, this one kind of hit me hard in the gut.

I do know what you're saying. I've been in situations where I have been with my type (INFP) in long term serious relationship and we got along GREAT :::BUT:::: I found that it was sort of a 'living in the clouds' relationship. I mean, as a best friend he couldn't be beat - we enjoyed the same things, had the same ideas, lifestyle, future goals, etc...(there were some big religious differences however which I think sort of made me reevaluate), but we were really really not 'planning' our lives together. He did his thing, I did mine. I found that the lack of strength and focus in our relationship could have gone on literally for the rest of my life and I would have always had a great best friend, but as a long-term life partner it was not as good. I have a tendency to just sort of 'drift along' in life and I am at the age where I can't do that anymore and actually have a family. (Mid 30's.)

I've been friends so long with my ISTJ that I feel I know him VERY well. Also, I was raised by a somewhat strict father (my dad is ESFP I just learned so not very related) and they're in the same line of work and have a similar feel to them which is maybe why I gravitate towards him in weird ways. I also feel that he's kind of like the 'fixer' for me. Like the knight on a white horse so to speak. Like he can take me, fix me and make me a better person or something. I know that sounds weird but I get this feeling that I need some direction in my life, which he gives me.

I've been told that I should 'work on myself' from my previous INFP guy and said that I need to get happy within myself first but I find I'm just too much of a drifter and nothing holds my attention for very long. Which is why I feel I need direction. Make sense? Plus, I need to have a family.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

 

[OregonENFP]

I'd say ISTJs as a whole are not egoistic, they just... don't understand other people, and nor are they really willing to. When a self-sacrifice is needed, the ISTJs I know will always come forward. Their lives seem to be organized only around the concept of "duty", and how to fulfill tasks in the most efficient way, especially for the people they care the most (and they do care, deeply).

According to my own experience, there's no way you could ever convince an ISTJ (s)he's wrong, but that doesn't mean (s)he's utterly selfish and self-centered. Even if their outside appearances are as cold as ice. They're just relentlessly stubborn, since they rely on their own past experiences first (Si-dom), and thus are often persuaded to do your own good in the best possible way, even if they contradict you.

YES YES YES! My god, this is an incredible explanation. Don't understand people well, not willing to. He's AMAZING at self-sacrifice, though, for his family and those he loves. (myself included).
You are right, there is NO WAY IN HELL I could EVER convince him that he is wrong. Ever. hahaha..... It's so amazing to hear things explained this way. Thank you!!

 

[batumi]

If you were to work at convincing him, however, I have found the most success in using
no-drama, logic, rational, calm explanations.

In defense of ISTJs, and I just married one last Friday, I will say this seems to be effective
many times.
And far more effective than trying to convince quite a few ENFJs I dated of anything.

What I mean is at least with an ISTJ you are in the rational world and can work
with logic and statements.
My ISTJ doesn't always get things, but if I tell him, Hey, I need this - he
goes to town on it.

Good luck.

 

[Giggly]

If you were to work at convincing him, however, I have found the most success in using
no-drama, logic, rational, calm explanations.

In defense of ISTJs, and I just married one last Friday, I will say this seems to be effective
many times.
And far more effective than trying to convince quite a few ENFJs I dated of anything.

What I mean is at least with an ISTJ you are in the rational world and can work
with logic and statements.
My ISTJ doesn't always get things, but if I tell him, Hey, I need this - he
goes to town on it.

Good luck.

Congrats on the nuptials, batumi!