[ISFJ] ISFJ characteristics. What sets you apart?

[skylights]

I think that captures things really well. So if an INFP or INTJ doesn't express their inner states or emotions then the ISFJ can't pick up on how they are feeling. ENFPs don't have that problem. They can't help but tell you what they're feeling.

Thanks, and yes, exactly!

I would have to agree that I am not very good at reading the innermost workings of an individual and of judging people by their past experiences but...really...if you're not willing to tell me these things, what else do I've got to go on? If you're willing to tell me what you need then I'll accommodate as best I can. If I'm misunderstanding you it's because your behavior is contradictory to the information you are giving me and I see that as more your problem and less mine.

If you're unwilling to discuss your feelings or if you yourself don't know quite how you feel about something, I don't think it's fair to hold me responsible for making false assumptions about why you're doing things. I'm doing the best I can with the information I've got

ETA: Also, what you may think you need may in fact NOT be what you in fact actually need

You sound like my ISFJ! These are all fair points, imo. NFPs tend to see things differently because we struggle to read anything but the emotional undercurrents. So much so that sometimes someone can harbor an emotion / "feeling tone" that's in their head for whatever reason but not directed at us personally, but we can feel it, and we can misinterpret that it's directed at us. I think that's why we're so sensitive sometimes. Whereas you guys seem to be sensitive in the sense that you're acutely aware of the feelings others are extraverting.

@highlander;@skylights: I align more with highlander's descriptions on the ISFJ.

Edit - I removed some text that obviously came across wrong.

My point was that I disagree.

 

[tinker683]

You sound like my ISFJ! These are all fair points, imo. NFPs tend to see things differently because we struggle to read anything but the emotional undercurrents. So much so that sometimes someone can harbor an emotion / "feeling tone" that's in their head for whatever reason but not directed at us personally, but we can feel it, and we can misinterpret that it's directed at us. I think that's why we're so sensitive sometimes. Whereas you guys seem to be sensitive in the sense that you're acutely aware of the feelings others are extraverting.

I can see that. I imagine that's the difference between Fi and Fe in usage with Ni/Ne.

I'd be curious to see how INFJs, being Ni-doms instead of Si-doms, would compare to ISFJs in this particular matter.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.

I wouldn't say that I read my mom, but rather I understand what she means when she speaks better. I don't understand in that I necessarily relate, I just grasp feelings I DON'T have better than my mom does. I give her tons of credit in working hard to grasp those she cares about; she will bend over backwards to accommodate those who are important to her. There's a tendency to oversimplify in order to explain though. Some of it is because there is no reference point & she's trying to create one because that's how Si types approach things.

INFPs easily feel misunderstood though, and it's not all in our heads nor is it about thinking we're special. It's that lack of concrete & external reference points that causes this & some of it is our own burden to learn to articulate difficult things. That's why we'll rely heavily on metaphor. I've found this successful in communicating with my ISFJ mom, but I often go through like 4-5 metaphors & she has to think about it for awhile, then it clicks & she'll validate my feeling through her accommodation of it. Growing up though, I was frequently invalidated, and as Peace Baby mentions, I hid my feelings a lot. In my case, I hid how I felt to the point of being accused of coldness & being entirely unfeeling.

However, I'm good at taking a statement from someone, including my mom, and identifying the deeper feeling behind it, the sort of core REASON for an emotion or value. It's not mind-reading at all; it's knowing human emotional makeup by having made yourself a case study & then taking verbalized or behavioral clues from others & using that very basic, general model to simulate their specific experience. I'm not always right of course, but you could call them very educated guesses that are tested in a kind of internal emotional laboratory, not some psychic ability.

 

[PeaceBaby]

My experience has just been really different. My environment has generally been liberal and education-heavy, so that may have an impact. Just like NFPs can either be benevolent and enlightened or kooky, spacey pains-in-the-asses.

So, my Mom is the way she is because she's not liberal or educated? Is that what I'm hearing here? My Mom is many things, but stupid she is not.

It sure sounds like you are saying it takes education, intelligence and culture to help an ISFJ be less ... ISFJ'y? Ouch.

Ya, I feel some subtle disapproval of my less-than-glowing portrayal of the stuff I find challenging about my ISFJ Mom. And now, we're going down that familiar road where just because I have shared negative information, folks are extrapolating that I must think this about EVERY ISFJ. Holy cowzers!

My Mom is a point on a continuum, not the poster child for ISFJ's everywhere. Valuable insight can be gained, however, from looking at the points farther from the center. We can agree on that, no?

Soon, I can expect someone to come in and tell me I have flaws too. And of course I do!

 

[tinker683]

So, my Mom is the way she is because she's not liberal or educated? Is that what I'm hearing here? My Mom is many things, but stupid she is not.

It sure sounds like you are saying it takes education, intelligence and culture to help an ISFJ be less ... ISFJ'y? Ouch.

Ya, I feel some subtle disapproval of my less-than-glowing portrayal of the stuff I find challenging about my ISFJ Mom. And now, we're going down that familiar road where just because I have shared negative information, folks are extrapolating that I must think this about EVERY ISFJ. Holy cowzers!

My Mom is a point on a continuum, not the poster child for ISFJ's everywhere. Valuable insight can be gained, however, from looking at the points farther from the center. We can agree on that, no?

Soon, I can expect someone to come in and tell me I have flaws too. And of course I do!

A few things

1) I was actually going to try and think of some way to smoothly flirt with you but I'm too sleepy/depressed to do that right now so I'm operating at 20% snark right now

2) Rereading the prior posts, I supposed I could take offense to to the whole "ISFJs need more liberal/academic education in order to be as sharp/witty/smart/nifty as us smarty-pants N-types else they are doomed to an existence of Dr.Phil-Oprah-house cleaning mediocrity!!" but really I just took that as the usual sort of alienation I've heard N's reported when dealing with Sensor parents so I didn't take it personally. If anything, I feel it's unfortunate that ISFJ parents often fail so often at understanding their N children as well as they can. It makes me wonder how I'll treat my kids if any of them are Intuitives.

3) I am so ready to go home, having a very slow day and an hour left. BORED.

 

[Hecuba]

I don't like to sound emo, or self-absorbed but being an ISFJ with a strong Enneagram 6 SUCKS -- no wonder people think I have got trust issues.

 

[skylights]

I don't like to sound emo, or self-absorbed but being an ISFJ with a strong Enneagram 6 SUCKS -- no wonder people think I have got trust issues.

Being a 6 is hard, I know! What things about ISFJness in combination with 6 are difficult together?

You sound like my ISFJ! These are all fair points, imo. NFPs tend to see things differently because we struggle to read anything but the emotional undercurrents. So much so that sometimes someone can harbor an emotion / "feeling tone" that's in their head for whatever reason but not directed at us personally, but we can feel it, and we can misinterpret that it's directed at us. I think that's why we're so sensitive sometimes. Whereas you guys seem to be sensitive in the sense that you're acutely aware of the feelings others are extraverting.

I can see that. I imagine that's the difference between Fi and Fe in usage with Ni/Ne.

I'd be curious to see how INFJs, being Ni-doms instead of Si-doms, would compare to ISFJs in this particular matter.

Me too! If any INFJs happen to be reading this

2) Rereading the prior posts, I supposed I could take offense to to the whole "ISFJs need more liberal/academic education in order to be as sharp/witty/smart/nifty as us smarty-pants N-types else they are doomed to an existence of Dr.Phil-Oprah-house cleaning mediocrity!!" but really I just took that as the usual sort of alienation I've heard N's reported when dealing with Sensor parents so I didn't take it personally. If anything, I feel it's unfortunate that ISFJ parents often fail so often at understanding their N children as well as they can. It makes me wonder how I'll treat my kids if any of them are Intuitives.

If you're referring to what I said, I didn't mean to imply that ISFJs in particular need more education or liberalism, and I apologize if that's how it came off. My point was that anyone can be impacted by those two factors, and the ISFJs in others' lives might be less open as a result of those factors - as opposed to because of anything inherent to ISFJness.

As for parents, at least personally, I've always felt more understood by my ESFJ mom than my INTP dad. If anything, I felt more alienated by FeTi-FiTe differences than N-S. Many people have told me I'm a particularly Fe-ish ENFP, and I assume it's because I was raised in an entirely Fe household.

So, my Mom is the way she is because she's not liberal or educated? Is that what I'm hearing here? My Mom is many things, but stupid she is not.

I think there has been a misunderstanding here.

No, that was not the point at all, nor the implication. I just don't think she's a good representative of ISFJs in terms of gift-giving. And yes, she might be less educated or less liberal. Neither of those things mean stupid. They simply correlate with less openness.

It sure sounds like you are saying it takes education, intelligence and culture to help an ISFJ be less ... ISFJ'y? Ouch.

"Ouch"! Yes, evil skylights, inflicting her evil ISFJ-hating views on the thread!

Why would I even want ISFJs to be less ISFJy? My SO is an ISFJ. If I didn't like his characteristics, I wouldn't be with him.

Ya, I feel some subtle disapproval of my less-than-glowing portrayal of the stuff I find challenging about my ISFJ Mom. And now, we're going down that familiar road where just because I have shared negative information, folks are extrapolating that I must think this about EVERY ISFJ. Holy cowzers!

Not every ISFJ. Many. You were saying that you agreed with highlander's impression, which to me sounded more stereotypical and less what was true to my experience with ISFJs. Again, I do not think your mom is a good representation of ISFJs in terms of gift-giving. And I commented that highlander's perception of ISFJs being less perceptive of others' feelings is probably a result of Fe-Fi barrier, as opposed to a characteristic inherent to ISFJs.

However, my pool of interaction with ISFJs is limited. I have had a handful of friends over the years I believe are ISFJs, a coworker or two, and just a few self-confirmed ISFJs. The ISFJ I draw most of my understanding from is my boyfriend, who is very liberal and very intellectual (as in reads huge texts, spends a large amount of time per day taking in information, etc, not just "smart"), so I might be biased in that way.

To sum up, and give my opinion to [MENTION=17494]Ayelless[/MENTION], I do not think it is characteristic of ISFJs to be oblivious to feelings. I believe that a core characteristic of ISFJs is that they are very good at reading externally-directed feeling messages, such as when others are desiring something to happen in the environment, or when others are trying to communicate something, whereas INFPs are better at reading internal emotional states. I believe that a core characteristic of ISFJs is that they heavily utilize the knowledge gained from their past experiences to make decisions, whereas INFPs are more likely to rely on theoretical/conceptual understanding to make decisions.

I do not think it is characteristic of ISFJs to think that it's more important to give something than to try hard to give something that others will appreciate. When an ISFJ gives a gift, it is probably more based on what they experientially know the person to like (ie, having directly seen or heard the person demonstrating their enjoyment) in addition to what they feel would be beneficial for them. When an INFP gives a gift, it is probably more based on their conceptual idea of the person ("this person is like this") in addition to what they feel would resonate with their internal emotions.

 

[Hecuba]

Being a 6 is hard, I know! What things about ISFJness in combination with 6 are difficult together?

Well, for me it's always the heightened sense of fear and uncertainty and my unwillingness to accept and lay complete trust in fate, it's not that I do not trust my friends, in fact I very much do but I am generally very distrustful of the world in general. My mind enjoys to run with every worst case scenario possibility, it's always the glass half-empty and I know it's an unhealthy way to look at life. I am always vigilant and watchful if not in an overbearing manner much to the annoyance of a lot of people. I can understand why this would hurt an INFP who the friend I have in mind is. People do not like to be guarded all of the time...

 

[tinker683]

If you're referring to what I said, I didn't mean to imply that ISFJs in particular need more education or liberalism. Anyone of any type who is less educated and exposed to less culture will be less likely to see their personal biases. Ns who are raised in a more closed environment will be, in my opinion, more likely to jump to conclusions and to accept some broad concepts on a complete leap of faith while rejecting others without much inspection.

As for parents, at least personally, I've always felt more understood by my ESFJ mom than my INTP dad. If anything, I felt more alienated by FeTi-FiTe differences than N-S. Many people have told me I'm a particularly Fe-ish ENFP, and I assume it's because I was raised in an entirely Fe household.

Sweetie, I was trying to be humorous I assure you I took no offense what-so-ever to what you said

It was partially in relation to what you said and a sediment that was presenting itself in this thread and something I run into a lot with Intuitives. ISFJs, particularily ISFJ women, are often characterized as not being stupid but simple so I was trying to take a jab at that (even I'm not an ISFJ woman)

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think there has been a misunderstanding here.

I did pounce on you here, and I've been thinking about it this afternoon too.

Comments like that do raise my hackles somewhat because my Mom is not simple or a hick for lacking a post-secondary education. Nor does it convince me that a liberal, "educated" ISFJ is inherently more attuned to giving great gifts. I'm not sure why it would make any difference, honestly. But I am happy for your experience though! Very much so.

She does take some unwarranted flack, so I did jump up to defend that.

"Ouch"! Yes, evil skylights, inflicting her evil ISFJ-hating views on the thread!

I know you don't hatez the ISFJ's - but let's be clear, neither do I. I was a little hard on you and you're right, I didn't think you meant what you said in any evil way.

So I do extend an apology for pouncing on that.

I simply get tired of having my opinion invalidated. I mean great, my experience isn't your experience, but it is mine, so I grow weary of expecting to do "damage control" for sharing my actual feelings on the topic.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I should add too, that I do talk to my Mom about this stuff. The reason I know what gifts she was going to give is because she bounces them off me first! Thank heavens for that, I can help with being able to predict what the inner reactions are likely to be from the potential gift recipients! And then, she comes up with ideas that suit her and the other person better, and she's happy because the other person is happy when they open their present and life is good.

Anytime I need to vent on a person-topic, my Mom is the best commiserator hands-down! (But I do have to be careful or she'll think that the person I am complaining about is a jerk for life!)

At any rate, I could wax on about the positive, but as usual the highlighting of the negative has over-shadowed that and only makes me look like I am back-pedaling, so I do apologize overall for that. The internet is not the best venue for discussing such matters, I fear. I just don't have the patience to structure it all in that perfect way to minimize confusion or offense all the time.

 

[skylights]

Sweetie, I was trying to be humorous I assure you I took no offense what-so-ever to what you said

It was partially in relation to what you said and a sediment that was presenting itself in this thread and something I run into a lot with Intuitives. ISFJs, particularily ISFJ women, are often characterized as not being stupid but simple so I was trying to take a jab at that (even I'm not an ISFJ woman)

Oh haha sorry!

Well, for me it's always the heightened sense of fear and uncertainty and my unwillingness to accept and lay complete trust in fate, it's not that I do not trust my friends, in fact I very much do but I am generally very distrustful of the world in general. My mind enjoys to run with every worst case scenario possibility, it's always the glass half-empty and I know it's an unhealthy way to look at life. I am always vigilant and watchful if not in an overbearing manner much to the annoyance of a lot of people. I can understand why this would hurt an INFP who the friend I have in mind is. People do not like to be guarded all of the time...

Ahh, yes, protectiveness. It's one of my favorite things about my ISFJ, he's very protective of me. I see what you mean, 6 vigilance plus Si close attentiveness to the present situation and FJ desire to take care of others. You must be a wonderful guardian, though.

I did pounce on you here, and I've been thinking about it this afternoon too.

Comments like that do raise my hackles somewhat because my Mom is not simple or a hick for lacking a post-secondary education. Nor does it convince me that a liberal, "educated" ISFJ is inherently more attuned to giving great gifts. I'm not sure why it would make any difference, honestly. But I am happy for your experience though! Very much so.

She does take some unwarranted flack, so I did jump up to defend that.

I know you don't hatez the ISFJ's - but let's be clear, neither do I. I was a little hard on you and you're right, I didn't think you meant what you said in any evil way.

So I do extend an apology for pouncing on that.

Well, apology accepted, thanks.

What I said really wasn't meant to have much to do with your mom at all, so I'm sorry too if it came off like I was trying to insult her, because that definitely wasn't the intention. When I said that, I had no idea what her education level was. I'm sorry she's caught flack for it in the past, and I seriously doubt that post-secondary education has anything to do with her gift-giving habits.

I simply get tired of having my opinion invalidated. I mean great, my experience isn't your experience, but it is mine, so I grow weary of expecting to do "damage control" for sharing my actual feelings on the topic.

Huh. Well, I certainly didn't mean to invalidate your opinion. I don't think I have.

Your mom is an ISFJ and your mom tends to focus more on the act and importance of gift-giving than the way the individual gifts will make people feel inside. That's interesting on its own and in particular to me because it also aligns with my impression that ISFJs are very attentive to external feelings but not always internal ones, which also correlates with highlander's impression that ISFJs don't always understand his Fi.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I do not think it is characteristic of ISFJs to think that it's more important to give something than to try hard to give something that others will appreciate. When an ISFJ gives a gift, it is probably more based on what they experientially know the person to like (ie, having directly seen or heard the person demonstrating their enjoyment) in addition to what they feel would be beneficial for them. When an INFP gives a gift, it is probably more based on their conceptual idea of the person ("this person is like this") in addition to what they feel would resonate with their internal emotions.

Ah I see you added this.

My Mom does try to extrapolate what people will like based on their external circumstance, but the external reaction desired is one of happiness regardless of the gift, and this helps feed her happiness (which I am going to add isn't really selfish in that it's the way Fe is wired).

Having an ISFJ mom and an ESFJ MIL, I know that the charade of being happy when opening any gift is highly anticipated and even expected, so it's much nicer to be genuinely happy than fake-happy. Be sour when opening a gift from an SFJ and you sure can make them very sad and even frustrated, especially when they think you'll be so delighted. So who wants to be the cause of that? My Mom will get defensive that she "tried so hard" and my MIL will jump up, ready with the gift receipt to help "fix" the gift issue and make you "happy" again.

And hey, maybe I'm to blame too because I don't want to be the bringer of rain to the parade, so I don't say how I really feel to begin with. But, it's because I've seen what happens when I (and others) do though, and I've made the assessment that most of the time, it's just not worth it.

So I don't think it's about SFJ's being misunderstood at all. It's about understanding perfectly - I know what's expected, so it's easier to head it off, quite frankly, and help my Mom (and MIL) give gifts that people have a better shot at feeling thrilled with. That fosters the win-win. Does it make me some sort of enabler? Yes. My Mom has given gifts to family members that have literally left the recipients in tears afterward, torn between feeling happy for the act of the gift but grossly misunderstood in terms of the actual content of the gift. So, I do that 9-thing, peacemaker.

Anyways, thanks for all of your thoughts. I'll chime out of this thread for a bit and regroup. Do feel free though to comment more, I will likely respond tomorrow.

 

[Zarathustra]

Damn.

After all these years, ISFJs are finally gettin some love.

 

[tinker683]

Damn.

After all these years, ISFJs are finally gettin some love.

INORITE!?!?!

Bring on the hugglepuffs!

 

[PeaceBaby]

Bring on the hugglepuffs!

 

[Giggly]

I'm down with the hugs.

 

[highlander]

I would have to agree that I am not very good at reading the innermost workings of an individual and of judging people by their past experiences but...really...if you're not willing to tell me these things, what else do I've got to go on? If you're willing to tell me what you need then I'll accommodate as best I can. If I'm misunderstanding you it's because your behavior is contradictory to the information you are giving me and I see that as more your problem and less mine.

If you're unwilling to discuss your feelings or if you yourself don't know quite how you feel about something, I don't think it's fair to hold me responsible for making false assumptions about why you're doing things. I'm doing the best I can with the information I've got

ETA: Also, what you may think you need may in fact NOT be what you in fact actually need

What I THINK I need is not what I NEED. Love it. It's true of course. The thing is what the ISFJ thinks I need is not what I necessarily need either. Maybe it is the ENFPs that know

I agree but it almost sounds like we're talking about mind reading here.

And I know that having this ability would be beneficial in a relationship, but it can't be a good idea to continue in, or enable someone else to continue in, a pattern of their actions (external) not matching their intentions (internal)? Maybe there's a healthy middle ground here and we're talking about S vs N stuff but it seems like a line should be drawn somewhere if these two things are constantly contradictory.

Yes it is mind reading. But I thought that is what women want men to do?

The path to hell was paved with good intentions, that is for sure.

So how about this question. What if you have an ISFJ 9 parent raising an ISFJ 9 child. Neither is particularly emotionally expressive (unlike the ISFJ 2 SX). They are all nice and pleasant to each other all the time and not really expressive of their emotions - neither bad nor good. Conflicts are avoided and there are few upsets. Emotions just aren't expressed in the house. How can they understand what each other is feeling then?

I If I don't externally exude emotions, nothing is known. Her ability to internally gauge where I'm at is extremely limited. The strange irony to me is that there are acceptable and unacceptable emotions. As an emotionally wired youngster with two SJ parents, I learned very young to simply hide my emotional reactions because it was too painful to share them and have them judged for appropriateness.

Yes, that is what I see. There is the acceptable and the unacceptable evaluation of your emotions, which I find unacceptable . Seriously, I hope I'm not coming off as negative about ISFJs. I think they're awesome - even more than awesome. There are things which can drive you a little crazy about any person.

Ditto. My ENFJ-ex gets me better than anyone else I know

Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.

I can think of an ENFP that would be able to it. She does read minds.

So, Fe types generally get you better. [MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION], I think I get you pretty well sometimes but then I'm just guessing most of the time so....

ALso, sometimes you have to say things even if you know it might bother a person.

 

[Giggly]

There's a tendency to oversimplify in order to explain though. Some of it is because there is no reference point & she's trying to create one because that's how Si types approach things.

Guilty.

(Did I oversimplify that?)

 

[Giggly]

The path to hell was paved with good intentions, that is for sure.

What?

So how about this question. What if you have an ISFJ 9 parent raising an ISFJ 9 child. Neither is particularly emotionally expressive (unlike the ISFJ 2 SX). They are all nice and pleasant to each other all the time and not really expressive of their emotions - neither bad nor good. Conflicts are avoided and there are few upsets. Emotions just aren't expressed in the house. How can they understand what each other is feeling then?

They need to learn how to express them! Don't ask me how to get them to do that, I'm trying to get people in my life to do it.

But, seriously, if there are no conflicts or upsets, then I would assume they are happy and have nothing bad to express. Not expressing the good is a problem though.

I can think of an ENFP that would be able to it. She does read minds.

Umm, no comment. lol

So, Fe types generally get you better. Giggly, I think I get you pretty well sometimes but then I'm just guessing most of the time so....

Okay but SF also includes SFP's too.