[ISTP] Is ISTP the Most Intuitive of All the sensors?

[skylights]

I think it varies from ISTP to INTP. For ISTPs, I think Ti backed by Se is more body-based, almost instinctual, whereas (I assume) it is more conceptual and concerned with endless theorizing when backed by Ne in the case of INTPs. In both Ti dom types, I think there is a strong potential for a natural mastery/understanding of spatial relationships and distances, although perhaps not in same way as might be seen in types with strong Te (not worse or better, just very different). I'm talking out my ass here and as a result am probably way off the mark.

About the spatial reasoning/intelligence--I struggled in most math classes yet easily aced geometry with little to no studying. I also excelled at geography whereas other students loathed the subject and struggled with it.

Interesting. I know what you mean about Se - I see that in my brother. Seems to come second nature to him. Thanks for the response.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

My Ti/Ni loop is constant, because my Ni is better developed than my Se, and the only way to deal with it is to bring Se in deliberately. It's the reason why i can't get to sleep, and as i'm not taking in new info through Se while laying down at night, it gets very pronounced.

For me, it's usually just reprocessing information, to the point where i end up with very circular thought processes. What i meant by the loop bringing Ni and Ti to an even plane was that it blocks out Se. So, i do Ti first, rationalizing the information i had from Se, then Ni forming hypotheticals on it, the Ti, rationalizing the hypotheticals... and repeat. I actually have to actively try to get new information (Se) or else i literally drive myself insane, which has happened twice. I would actually describe it as my Ti reacting to my Ni process instead of my Se process like it should.

Hmm, interesting.

When I first saw the film The Matrix, I think I went into a Ti-Ni loop which nearly drove my STJ roommate insane. I remember becoming obsessed with the idea that we all may be brains in jars experiencing a massive, collective virtual simulation--plus, I happened to be taking a Philosophy course at the time wherein we were discussing Plato's cave. It wasn't really a productive line of thinking, because I kept coming full circle back to where I started. I think I finally snapped out of it by taking a camping trip or something of that nature.

I will also experience loops if I smoke too much pot.

Nowadays, if I get too trapped in my head like that, I will snap out of it by taking a trip to the park and experiencing some nature for a few hours, maybe also photographing the trees, architecture and giant koi fish in the pond at our city park.

I'm curious how Ti-Ni loops in ISTPs are similar to/different than Ni-Ti loops in INFJs.

 

[infinite]

yup, even in NTPs (they take the grand prize for the "completely missing the fucking point award" )

Ha, I find the people who complain about me missing the point also miss my point pretty much.

I think it's just a communication issue.

Interesting! Would you mind describing how you experience it? When my INTP dad and ISTP brother voice it, it sounds linear to me or at least like they see some kind of coherent, immutable logical background scheme that they are operating with. The way I experience Fi it is sort of hard to access and explain sometimes. I always perceived Ti to be more clear and structured. Maybe this is not the case.

It's structured but that's not the same thing as being linear. Linear thinking is only a few simple two-dimensional connections in my mind. Whereas with Ti, if an entire topic is neatly covered logically through Ti, it's a three-dimensional picture at the least. The (logical) connections can go in many directions and there can be many types of connections. A complex structure is the end result. But yes, coherence is a defining feature. Immutable? Well, it's actually updatable. Maybe not always immediately updated.. if that's what you mean.

As for accessing and explaining the structure - for me it's primarily nonverbal, access is easy and usually very quick but explaining it by putting it into words? It's a lengthy and somewhat painful process. Words are too linear

I think it varies from ISTP to INTP. For ISTPs, I think Ti backed by Se is more body-based, almost instinctual, whereas (I assume) it is more conceptual and concerned with endless theorizing when backed by Ne in the case of INTPs. In both Ti dom types, I think there is a strong potential for a natural mastery/understanding of spatial relationships and distances, although perhaps not in same way as might be seen in types with strong Te (not worse or better, just very different). I'm talking out my ass here and as a result am probably way off the mark.

About the spatial reasoning/intelligence--I struggled in most math classes yet easily aced geometry with little to no studying. I also excelled at geography whereas other students loathed the subject and struggled with it.

Hm I actually have most of the Ti in an instinctual form yes. It's also why it's so nonverbal. Over time though, I've been - inadvertently - developing a visual/spatial representation of my logic that's not directly body-based. Though some of it still is. The rest of it is more detached though. This is still nonverbal of course.. still easier than using words. The body based access is still the quickest but this visual form sometimes neatly simplifies some complex things.. and it's also an extra layer for fun.

I agree it's pretty spatial and stuff. What is it like with Te types?

I will have to say that I was not as good with geometry back in school as with the rest of mathematics. I was alright in class, I got A's in geometry no problem. But in math competitions I usually didn't manage to solve geometry problems. I solved the rest of the problems just fine so that relative handicap in geometry was annoying me. This was because I was focusing on what I saw and I didn't go beyond it conceptually. That took me a while.. much later I finally saw some deeper conceptual background in geometry, again this was a spontaneous development.

Geography? That was mainly rote memorization of facts. Boring. I love map reading and navigation though especially if it's a hard problem with minimal amount of cues

Interesting. I know what you mean about Se - I see that in my brother. Seems to come second nature to him. Thanks for the response.

What is it like with your brother? Just curious.

My Ti/Ni loop is constant, because my Ni is better developed than my Se, and the only way to deal with it is to bring Se in deliberately. It's the reason why i can't get to sleep, and as i'm not taking in new info through Se while laying down at night, it gets very pronounced.

For me, it's usually just reprocessing information, to the point where i end up with very circular thought processes. What i meant by the loop bringing Ni and Ti to an even plane was that it blocks out Se. So, i do Ti first, rationalizing the information i had from Se, then Ni forming hypotheticals on it, the Ti, rationalizing the hypotheticals... and repeat. I actually have to actively try to get new information (Se) or else i literally drive myself insane, which has happened twice. I would actually describe it as my Ti reacting to my Ni process instead of my Se process like it should.

Interesting. I only had that under a very special life circumstance. Looking back it was severe stress though at the time I didn't realise I was experiencing a stressful period lol

Anyway, yeah, it was exactly like that. Me going around or just sitting - or lying down in bed -, while constantly thinking inside head, Ni running away wild and Ti trying to run after it, to solve all the bullshit the Ni would bring up. In some lucky cases, I did manage to shoot down bad ideas with some nice Ti. For me the solution was not through getting new information (Se or not) but through Ti finally making sense of all of it. I didn't find Se on its own helpful in this process. Well I did find Se data helpful as long as I was bringing the data in strictly under the close control of Ti. In practice that meant experimentation - me observing certain things contrasted against a (TiNi) hypothesis and evaluating the results logically (Ti).

My default way of thinking does not deal with Ni as much as that, I don't make up hypotheticals. I just crunch & analyse concrete data. Forming hypotheticals is a pretty draining process for me. Sometimes some insights are okay/cool/not draining but that just happens in "eureka" moments...

When I had another TiNi loop, that was less intense but drawn out for a long-ish time where I did have quite some Ni ideas, not the bad ideas, but some nice ones. Whenever it would start to go circular - not too often -, I was actually able to shoot that down with Ti. No problem. Simply need to stay consistent and that way it's easy to shoot that down.

What do you mean by driving yourself literally insane? What was that like?

Hmm, interesting.

When I first saw the film The Matrix, I think I went into a Ti-Ni loop which nearly drove my STJ roommate insane. I remember becoming obsessed with the idea that we all may be brains in jars experiencing a massive, collective virtual simulation--plus, I happened to be taking a Philosophy course at the time wherein we were discussing Plato's cave. It wasn't really a productive line of thinking, because I kept coming full circle back to where I started. I think I finally snapped out of it by taking a camping trip or something of that nature.

I will also experience loops if I smoke too much pot.

Nowadays, if I get too trapped in my head like that, I will snap out of it by taking a trip to the park and experiencing some nature for a few hours, maybe also photographing the trees, architecture and giant koi fish in the pond at our city park.

I'm curious how Ti-Ni loops in ISTPs are similar to/different than Ni-Ti loops in INFJs.

Lol I'm usually not nihilistic like that but it happened before for a few seconds here and there but I easily snap out by reminding myself of the principles I've previously laid down about my philosophy. What I said to Dragonfly about staying consistent. Same thing. Ti can shoot down Ni easily in this way

Another quick way to snap out of this shit is simply focusing my attention back on my physical being. This takes only one second, I don't actually have to go out for a trip or whatever. Maybe this is an enneagram difference, you two are Head types in enneagram, I'm supposed to be more in touch with the body.

Or, I could just say... "fuck this shit, I don't care if it's even true, it doesn't change a thing about what I actually experience". I think that's Se reasoning right?

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION]
I said NTPs. ISTPs are usually pretty good at getting the point

 

[infinite]

[MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION]
I said NTPs. ISTPs are usually pretty good at getting the point

Yeah I know you think they get the grand prize. I still think it's a communication issue instead.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I love map reading and navigation though especially if it's a hard problem with minimal amount of cues

I don't think I'll ever buy a GPS. I still travel with maps and map books and will always consult them if lost. As a male, I couldn't better fit the stereotype of the stubborn man who never asks for directions.

 

[Elfboy]

Yeah I know you think they get the grand prize. I still think it's a communication issue instead.

I didn't say that either.

 

[infinite]

I don't think I'll ever buy a GPS. I still travel with maps and map books and will always consult them if lost. As a male, I couldn't better fit the stereotype of the stubborn man who never asks for directions.

Heh I have a GPS in my phone and it does give me directions but I don't need them a lot of the time so then I just ignore them, I only need the map from the GPS software

Map books are okay too but they take up too much space if I'm not going by car.. and when I'm pressed for time, it takes too long to look up an address manually.

I didn't say that either.

Yes you did, it's all there in black and white in text above... I have no idea why the fuck you'd deny that but I'm not interested in figuring out why.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Heh I have a GPS in my phone and it does give me directions but I don't need them a lot of the time so then I just ignore them, I only need the map from the GPS software

Map books are okay too but they take up too much space if I'm not going by car.. and when I'm pressed for time, it takes too long to look up an address manually.

Sometimes I will check google maps and draw my own map before leaving the house lol.

 

[infinite]

Sometimes I will check google maps and draw my own map before leaving the house lol.

hehe I like that too. Also, I sometimes do this map drawing inside my head even while on the move (going by what I've seen, not by google maps, of course). Do you draw it inside your head or on paper actually?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

hehe I like that too. Also, I sometimes do this map drawing inside my head even while on the move (going by what I've seen, not by google maps, of course). Do you draw it inside your head or on paper actually?

Usually in my head but sometimes on paper.

 

[Elfboy]

Yes you did, it's all there in black and white in text above... I have no idea why the fuck you'd deny that but I'm not interested in figuring out why.

oh, whoops, thought we were still talking about ISTPs. in that case, yes, I did say that about NTPs ("grand prize for missing the fucking point award").

but you're right, it is a communication issue, and communication is very much related to MBTI

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Would you guys say that, of all the Sensor types, ISTP is one of the most oblivious to others' feelings? I ask because there was a similar discussion evolving in [MENTION=10569]ZombieKiller[/MENTION]'s thread.

 

[infinite]

oh, whoops, thought we were still talking about ISTPs. in that case, yes, I did say that about NTPs ("grand prize for missing the fucking point award").

but you're right, it is a communication issue, and communication is very much related to MBTI

Heh okay.

Yes, I find MBTI good for some communication analysis

 

[Dannik]

Would you guys say that, of all the Sensor types, ISTP is one of the most oblivious to others' feelings?

No, I think most ISTPs are acutely aware of others' feelings.
and often ISTPs are crippled into inaction by wanting to fulfill the emotional needs of others.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

No, I think most ISTPs are acutely aware of others' feelings.
and often ISTPs are crippled into inaction by wanting to fulfill the emotional needs of others.

I actually relate to that a lot.

 

[Dragonfly]

Interesting. I only had that under a very special life circumstance. Looking back it was severe stress though at the time I didn't realise I was experiencing a stressful period lol

Anyway, yeah, it was exactly like that. Me going around or just sitting - or lying down in bed -, while constantly thinking inside head, Ni running away wild and Ti trying to run after it, to solve all the bullshit the Ni would bring up. In some lucky cases, I did manage to shoot down bad ideas with some nice Ti. For me the solution was not through getting new information (Se or not) but through Ti finally making sense of all of it. I didn't find Se on its own helpful in this process. Well I did find Se data helpful as long as I was bringing the data in strictly under the close control of Ti. In practice that meant experimentation - me observing certain things contrasted against a (TiNi) hypothesis and evaluating the results logically (Ti).

My default way of thinking does not deal with Ni as much as that, I don't make up hypotheticals. I just crunch & analyse concrete data. Forming hypotheticals is a pretty draining process for me. Sometimes some insights are okay/cool/not draining but that just happens in "eureka" moments...

When I had another TiNi loop, that was less intense but drawn out for a long-ish time where I did have quite some Ni ideas, not the bad ideas, but some nice ones. Whenever it would start to go circular - not too often -, I was actually able to shoot that down with Ti. No problem. Simply need to stay consistent and that way it's easy to shoot that down.

What do you mean by driving yourself literally insane? What was that like?

Well, it wasn't purely taking in the data with Se, it was giving new information the the TiNi loop, so that i wouldn't go to far into the same loop. By driving myself insane, it was after days of isolation, leading to a single loop perpetuating for to long, and being stuck inside my head for so long that i would end up sitting in complete stillness, and after a while of that needing to purge my thoughts with either of the extraverted judging functions, I'm not truly sure which. The first time i completely flipped out, and ended up trashing my room. The second i spent an entire day ranting to myself, and a remember specifically saying, out loud: "And here i am... talking to an empty room, and myself, like some kind of *expletive* lunatic, just *explative* perfect.

I wouldn't say it was true insanity, as i was still in touch with reality, but it was definately not true sanity. Of course, it ended when i reached catharsis, followed by cleaning up my mess in the former case, and in the latter, taking care of my basic needs like eating which i had neglected for several hours despite the fact that i was aware of them. Then i went out, because i recognized the need to engage myself in something. Now that i think about it, these events were during very stressful points in my life and quite close together as well, perhaps started by the repressed emotionality that i was feeling.

I haven't experienced another incident, as i started engaging my Se actively every day, either through exercise, socialization, or just random sightseeing to prevent boredom. Not to say that the loops went away, they just don't go to the extreme anymore.

Also, an afterthought to your mentioning of Ni, it was my NI "reunning wild" with Se, then Ti trying to rationalize my Ni thoughts. It was sort of Se>Ni>Ti>Ni>Ti... and so on, until i eventually hit Fe, then going back to Se. Hopefully that is clearer than my previous interpretation.