[MBTI General] is astrology real?

[Darjur]

...

You still haven't answered any of my questions.

 

[tinkerbell]

Answer two questions.

How is "science" a ruler?
How would any advancements be made without the use of science?

science ultimately measures, doens't really do very much beyond.

Lots of advancements can be made by addapting, innovation is rooted in thinking beyond the barriers of the traditional approach, or are you gonna slag of Enstien too - who's approach was about thinking differently about a problem in order to find a better solution.

Thats not to say science is not valuable, in the same way as religion is not valuable, it gives people a language to discuss things, and common belief systems - but ultimately it lowers a persons ability to think into big wide open spaces...

L

 

[tinkerbell]

Tink, is that the famous ESTP sense of humour?

No point in asking an ENTP what ESTP humor looks like, I wouldn't have a clue, none too keen on oober S myself....

As for for the joker who says astrology is an inuative art, they REALLY, REALLY don't know what they are talking about. Yes you learn to interpret meaning of different things, but there are deinitions to those symbols and angles etc.... Nothing much intuative about it.

Lis

 

[Kalach]

So, to sum up, there are unbelievers, believers, and converts, there are practitioners, and there are wise ones who know the secrets and will dispense their wisdom for coin. And there is forthcoming no statement of mechanism. Unbelievers may not be convinced by looking into the mechanics, but only by discovering that "it works!"

You got yourself a religion.

But...

consider Chinese traditional medicine for a moment. Most will know that it is hardly scientific. But testimony to its efficacy exists. Can it be dismissed?

Well, TCM has been around for, probably, thousands of years, current day quakery and fakery notwithstanding. So consider the actually traditional. Can that be dismissed?

A thousand years is long enough, I suspect, to discover which potions are lethal, which are innocuous but palliative, and which tend to help. All discovered by accident and social pressure and passed down by practitioners, along with a tendentious theory intended to bulwark hearsay and statistic-like correlations.

The theory is bullshit, but the practice can have evolved into something useful.

So there's your mechanism for the efficacy of TCM. Or there's a hypothesis for the origin of such efficacy as may exist.

So, now we return to astrology...

Any takers?



And unless this topic is intended primarily to poke fun at the NT inability to enjoy fun and novelty and whiz-bang jiggery pokery, or was set up to be knocked down, it is not primarily an NT topic. Any wanker can have at it.

 

[matmos]

I once had a fortune-telling experience, many, er, moons ago in Blackpool - home of English tack (and that's up against some stiff competition.)

Secreted down an alley, chanced upon almost by accident (perhaps fate?) lay the musty lair of Madam Petulengro...

Draped in centuries of Gypsy mysticism, eyes black as the Devil's heart, she foresaw a dark stranger, an "unexpected surprise", and a "return to nature".

Well she charged me £30, which was a surprise; with no money left I had to walk back to the hotel in the rain.

She did indeed see me coming.

 

[Helios]

hahaha!

Na, I dont think so but that lone tinkerbell ady seems to want to argue about it so heres a thread...

I do have to say we conducted a study once where I took the sun/moon combinations and printed out the very detailed descriptions off some website. I had seven descriptions that matched to four individals with three extra thrown in. ( i was working, really, it was during an incubation)

I tested five subjects to see if they could pick assign them correctly. All five excluded the three red herrings. All five could match two out of four to the correct people. Two out of five mixed up the last two poeple.

the last two poeple happened to be an ENTP and an ENFP.

then of corse it all went down hill as we could not figure out the best way to statitically analyze the data and the analytical chemist kept talking about wierd advanced statitsics test and ANOVAs and crap.

jeez, I can barely read most days, let alone do statitsics


but, to have Ne style fun, what could be the correlation? gravitational effects by proximity to various astral bodies which yield nueronal abnormalities in the growing fetus?

changes in mag field w respect to sun flares cooking the buggers brains?

maybe its the moon (given the moon signs seemed a wee bit more promising) and subtle shifts in gravity ?

come one have some fun silly NTs!

This is one NT's opinion of astrology:

"Even today, people who still believe in astrology fall almost without exception for the old superstitious assumption of the influence of the stars. And yet anyone who can calculate a horoscope should know that, since the days of Hipparchus of Alexandria, the spring-point has been fixed at 0° Aries, and that the zodiac on which every horoscope is based is therefore quite arbitrary, the spring-point having gradually advanced, since then, into the first degrees of Pisces, owing to the precession of the equinoxes."- C.G. Jung, The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious.

In context, Jung is discussing the inability of primitive man to separate the description of their psychic phenomena from the outer environment. Presumably, he sees astrology as a relic of this primitive past.

 

[Darjur]

science ultimately measures, doens't really do very much beyond.

Lots of advancements can be made by addapting, innovation is rooted in thinking beyond the barriers of the traditional approach, or are you gonna slag of Enstien too - who's approach was about thinking differently about a problem in order to find a better solution.

Thats not to say science is not valuable, in the same way as religion is not valuable, it gives people a language to discuss things, and common belief systems - but ultimately it lowers a persons ability to think into big wide open spaces...

L

Science is not a procedure.
Science is the set of laws and rules that govern nature. Nothing can be made in this existence without science, for fucks sake, the word itself is a translation from the word "Knowledge".



I'll say it again, what is your definition of the word science, because I have no fucking idea what is it that you're referring to.

The way it looks at the moment is that you misunderstand and mix science with the flaws of human thinking?

 

[Helios]

Science is not a procedure.
Science is the set of laws and rules that govern nature. Nothing can be made in this existence without science, for fucks sake, the word itself is a translation from the word "Knowledge".

I find the lexical definition to be of more use:

"systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation."

Science, then, would be interested in the formation of theory and law regarding the physical world.

 

[tinkerbell]

Science is not a procedure.
Science is the set of laws and rules that govern nature. Nothing can be made in this existence without science, for fucks sake, the word itself is a translation from the word "Knowledge".

~Man I only took that tact to piss you off....

LOL

As for astrological process for the geezer a few posts above, I've gone through the porcess several time, you take the possitions of the planets at the lattitude and longdature of the monment of birth and you interpret it using a range of interpretations used for a fair few number of years. Early astrology worked from Moon - Saturn.

TCM has more than 1000 years of history (so I beleive, I'm no expert on it).

Astrology has been around vast periods of time - and hasn't change very much in that time. If you know who Nicholas Cullpeper is, then maybe you can see how wooley modern western medicine is.... A lot of it comes from similar sources - take traditional medcine and synthsises it (ie man made herbs into pharma products). Easter medicine works on promoting health, wester medicine focuses on simptom reduction... Ultimately both work one because it makes the body strong enough to fight conditions off, the other becuase is assist simptoms severity which allows the body to heal itself. Actually if you want to dig further, I suspect you could treat a fair few illnesses psyciatrically to the same extent... Possitive belief in wellness can cure such a lot of problems.


Science sulks! NT's love it when you challenge their bible... Limitations....

I guess you may be less aware that sciences only split about 120 years ago.... Prior to that astronomy, astrology, medicine, etc etc were all under one umbarella.....

 

[Darjur]

~Man I only took that tact to piss you off....

Science sulks! NT's love it when you challenge their bible... Limitations....

I guess you may be less aware that sciences only split about 120 years ago.... Prior to that astronomy, astrology, medicine, etc etc were all under one umbarella.....

I'm not pissed. I have great feelings of disgust and confusion at this point, but not anger.

You answer the what, but you do not answer the how, that alone makes my mentality consider everything you're saying at this point as complete nonsense. This may very well be a limitation, but I'm somewhat thankfull for it's existence.

I don't really care for what it was. That does not interest me in the least.

 

[Kalach]

Fairiez. :steam:

They made my science cry.

Huggiez for science.

 

[Not_Me]

Science is methodology for determining how well a belief correlate with observed reality. It is the only method that has withstood the test of time.

Thought limiting? Yes. But that's a good thing. It prevents one from wasting time on actions which are unlikely to bring about the desired outcome.

 

[tinkerbell]

Fairiez. :steam:

They made my science cry.

Huggiez for science.

That has to be the cutest post ever.... LOL

 

[Costrin]

~Man I only took that tact to piss you off....

LOL

And you take pride and laugh when you piss people off? You insult us, call us "20 something egotistical males". Insult our rationality, call us science worshiping NTs. Your entire tone is one of superiority, as if you don't have anything to learn from us, we are a waste of your time, and stupid.

I'll say it bluntly. You are showing a lot of immaturity here. Your attitude is reflecting badly on the positions you hold, and your peers that hold them. We are a lot less inclined to take you seriously because of this.

What is your goal here? Is it to convince us astrology is right? If so, then I highly suggest you change your attitude, and be more willing to accommodate us. When we ask you questions, its because we want them answered. If you avoid the question, dismiss it, or just tell us to look it up ourselves, then we are less likely to accommodate you by considering your arguments, and examining your evidence.

 

[tinkerbell]

Science is methodology for determining how well a belief correlate with observed reality. It is the only method that has withstood the test of time.

Thought limiting? Yes. But that's a good thing. It prevents one from wasting time on actions which are unlikely to bring about the desired outcome.

I'm only ribbing about science because it makes NT's eye glow red, it's like their religion. Science is good for testing stuff, but to be honest innovations and science as best kept apart until the innovsator has found something they find works. IMO if you apply Science before creativity it become self fullfiling brick wall.

Lis

 

[tinkerbell]

And you take pride and laugh when you piss people off? You insult us, call us "20 something egotistical males". Insult our rationality, call us science worshiping NTs. Your entire tone is one of superiority, as if you don't have anything to learn from us, we are a waste of your time, and stupid.

And a clear distain for your lack of educated argument, I insult because 20 something male ego driven "because i say so" lacks education, understanding and thought... period. I think if you rout around in previous thread I was told I was unintellegnet unless I concured with you - I don't get over it... I never will. If find the whole 20 something crap just that....

And yed I poke fun at people - including my boss with an IQ of 163, specal education for gifted students, at his innability to think beyond science.. FYI - me and he have been arguing playfully for 3 years, if you think I'll give in to you shakin your rattle at me - your way wrong...

Us ENTP girls like to have a little fun and your expense...

 

[Prototype]

And a clear distain for your lack of educated argument, I insult because 20 something male ego driven "because i say so" lacks education, understanding and thought... period. I think if you rout around in previous thread I was told I was unintellegnet unless I concured with you - I don't get over it... I never will. If find the whole 20 something crap just that....

And yed I poke fun at people - including my boss with an IQ of 163, specal education for gifted students, at his innability to think beyond science.. FYI - me and he have been arguing playfully for 3 years, if you think I'll give in to you shakin your rattle at me - your way wrong...

Us ENTP girls like to have a little fun and your expense...

I'm a Scorpio,... Nov, 20th/1979/TOB 5:20-25pm... Can you read my chart? I would like to see if there is even a small correlation to MBTI.

 

[Costrin]

And a clear distain for your lack of educated argument, I insult because 20 something male ego driven "because i say so" lacks education, understanding and thought... period. I think if you rout around in previous thread I was told I was unintellegnet unless I concured with you - I don't get over it... I never will. If find the whole 20 something crap just that....

I have not insulted you personally, except other than expressing that I view you as immature.

And yed I poke fun at people - including my boss with an IQ of 163, specal education for gifted students, at his innability to think beyond science.. FYI - me and he have been arguing playfully for 3 years, if you think I'll give in to you shakin your rattle at me - your way wrong...

Good for you that you have that kind of relationship where you can do that. However, I ask politely that you don't do it to me. I don't enjoy it. Think whatever you want about that, I don't particularly care, as long as you stop.

Us ENTP girls like to have a little fun and your expense...

I think this is referred to as trolling. I am pointing out, that if you truly wish to convince us of the correctness of astrology, then it would highly benefit you to change your attitude. If you don't wish to do that, then I will be forced to conclude that your only goal is to annoy us. The olive branch is being offered, do you choose to accept it?

 

[matmos]

Hey Tinkers.

I am thinking of a planet.

What planet am I thinking of?
Uranus

 

[PeaceBaby]

Mars ... you're thinking of Mars. (PeaceBaby lovingly strokes the crystal ball.)

It's nicer than Uranus.