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Is America great now?

Is America great now?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 13.2%
  • No

    Votes: 29 76.3%
  • This question is mean.

    Votes: 4 10.5%

  • Total voters
    38
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Arguments are cerebral exercise- they are not intended to convince. They're for my benefit, not yours.

That's good to know, because it certainly did not. What purpose does it serve for you?

The nice thing about knowing yourself- in regards to debate- is that when people go on tilt, and default to ad hominem attacks that are obviously false, it only ends up weakening their credibility- and by proximity, their positions.

Indeed, like, for instance, the accusation that the other person is a cultist when it can be shown that one has done precious little to subject their own assumptions to any sort of critical thinking whatsoever. That can do much to undermine credibility, and cause others to lose the respect for them they may once have had.

Lots of people throw around the word cult on different sides, as I have at times, but I think some people have put a lot of effort into examining their positions and questioning them to see if they are on a solid foundation, and others have not. I would say that those who have not are much closer to being cultists.
 

rav3n

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It's ironic how Trump called other countries shitholes when he's turned the U.S. into a shithole.
 

anticlimatic

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That's good to know, because it certainly did not. What purpose does it serve for you?

It helps me be more tactically effective in the real world. Isn't that the point for everyone?

Indeed, like, for instance, the accusation that the other person is a cultist when it can be shown that one has done precious little to subject their own assumptions to any sort of critical thinking whatsoever. That can do much to undermine credibility, and others to lose the respect for them they may once have had.

Lots of people throw around the word cult on different sides, as I have at times, but I think some people have put a lot of effort into examining their positions and questioning them to see if they are on a solid foundation, and others have not. I would say that those who have not are much closer to being cultists.

I consider it a fact that the far left has become a religious cult, so I'm not particularly interested in debating it- for the same reason I wouldn't debate someone who didn't think the sky was blue. You understand.
 
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It helps me be more tactically effective in the real world. Isn't that the point for everyone?

I get it. I've used things that worked on you on my uncle. It worked beautifully. If I can get my opponent frothing at the mouth without anything to back any of their ravings up, I've won. The key is to get them to shy away from discussion out of fear of having their beliefs called into question. Casting into doubt the alleged "logic and reason" of your opponent for observers seems effective.

I consider it a fact that the far left has become a religious cult, so I'm not particularly interested in debating it- for the same reason I wouldn't debate someone who didn't think the sky was blue. You understand.

Yes, cults are all about debating things and free-thinkers hate debating things. It's incredibly important to not subject your own views to scrutiny, lest you fall victim to dogmatism. We all know the truths we've obtained through our intellectual brilliance are things that must be protected and sheltered from the world at large, rather than shared.
 

rav3n

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In the midst of the C19 pandemic, considering how the U.S. is suffering from the largest jump in C19 cases since it began because of the reopening, guess what Trump's done?

Amid pandemic, Trump administration asks Supreme Court to overturn Obamacare - ABC News

In the midst of a pandemic and without an alternative health plan of its own, the Trump administration formally called on the U.S. Supreme Court to completely strike down the Affordable Care Act.

The administration makes the case in a legal brief filed Thursday in the case brought by 20 Republican-led states that want to completely invalidate the law.

The justices will hear oral arguments as soon as October, which is just weeks before the general election.
 

Riva

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Any country with a large gdp, powerful military and good living standards can call itself great.

Doesn't matter how it accomplished it, what country it 'still' loots from and what group of people it enslaved; if you have those things above you can call yourselves great, because wealth speaks more than how you got it (people have short memories).

....

Getting to the Trump topic as a non-american I can appreciate any American president who doesn't invade other nations in the guise of democracy/freedom and continue to destroy, loot and create instability/fund terrorism. And I can also appreciate an American president who runs the USA economy well and doesn't interfere with the integrity of other nations.

So far Trump (though an immature crazy person) hasn't destroyed and looted any country like his past FIVE predecessors.
 
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So far Trump (though an immature crazy person) hasn't destroyed and looted any country like his past FIVE predecessors.

I would agree that this is the one thing Trump has in his favor. John Bolton and Colin Powell are both scumbags. Prior to this year, in fact, I did not consider him to be the worst President ever. My argument was simply that he had far less blood on his hands than other administrations. Covid-19 has made that argument unsupportable.
 

Jonny

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No, it’s not great. And Donald Trump is making it worse. Noam Chomsky articulates it quite well in a recent interview with Jacobin:

Could you explain why what Donald Trump is doing institutionally actually is unique and does matter on its own terms?

This sounds strong, but it’s true: Trump is the worst criminal in history, undeniably. There has never been a figure in political history who was so passionately dedicated to destroying the projects for organized human life on earth in the near future.

That is not an exaggeration. People are focused now on the protests; the pandemic is serious enough that we will emerge from it at terrible cost. The cost is greatly amplified by the gangster in the White House, who has killed tens of thousands of Americans, making this the worst place in the world [for the coronavirus]. We will emerge [from the pandemic, but] we’re not going to emerge from another crime that Trump has committed, the heating of the globe. The worst of it is coming — we’re not going to emerge from that.

The ice sheets are melting; they’re not going to recover. That leads to exponential increase in global warming. Arctic glaciers, for example, could flood the world. Recent studies indicate that on the present course, in about fifty years, much of the habitable part of the world will be unlivable. You won’t be able to live in parts of South Asia, parts of the Middle East, parts of the United States. We’re approaching the point of 125,000 years ago, when sea levels were about twenty-five feet higher than they are now. And it’s worse than that. The Scripps Oceanographic Institute just came out with a study that estimated that we are coming ominously close to a point [similar to] 3 million years ago, when sea levels were fifty to eighty feet higher than they are today.

All around the world, countries are trying to do something about it. But there is one country which is led by a president who wants to escalate the crisis, to race toward the abyss, to maximize the use of fossil fuels, including the most dangerous of them, and to dismantle the regulatory apparatus that limits their impact. There is no crime like this in human history. Nothing. This is a unique individual. And it’s not as if he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Of course he does. It’s as if he doesn’t care. If he can pour more profits into his pockets and the pockets of his rich constituency tomorrow, who cares if the world disappears in a couple of generations?

As far as the government is concerned, we’re seeing something pretty interesting. Parliamentary democracy has been around for 350 years, starting in England in 1689 with the so-called Glorious Revolution, when sovereignty was transferred from the royalty to the parliament. The beginnings of parliamentary democracy in the United States [came] about a century later. Parliamentary democracy is not just based on laws and constitutions. In fact, the British constitution is maybe a dozen words. It’s based on trust and good faith, the assumption that people will act like human beings.

Take Richard Nixon. Pretty rotten guy, but when the time came that he had to leave office, he left office quietly. Nobody is expecting that with Trump. He doesn’t act like a human being. He’s off somewhere else. He [doesn’t] even make appointments that can be confirmed by the Senate. Why bother? I don’t like somebody, I’ll throw them out. One Republican, Lisa Murkowski, dares to raise a small question about his nobility, [and he] came down on her with a ton of bricks — I’m going to destroy you.

It’s not fascism. It’s what I said before: tin-pot dictator of some small country where they have coups every couple of years. That’s the mentality.

Congress, the Senate, happens to be in the hands of a soul mate of his, Mitch McConnell — in many ways the real evil genius of this administration, dedicated to destroying democracy long before Trump. When [Barack] Obama was elected, McConnell said openly to the public, “My main goal is to ensure that Obama can achieve nothing.” Okay. That’s saying, “I want to destroy parliamentary democracy,” which is based, as I said, in good faith and trust in the interchange.

The Senate. the so-called world’s greatest deliberative body, is reduced to passing legislation that will enrich the very rich, empowering the corporate sector, and making judicial appointments to stack the judiciary with young, ultraright, mostly incompetent justices who can ensure for a generation that no matter what the public wants, they’ll be able to block it.

It’s a deep hatred of democracy and fear of democracy. That’s not unusual among the elites; they don’t like democracy for obvious reasons. But this is something special.

That’s on top of the pandemic, on top of the global warming crisis, the crisis of nuclear weapons, which is equally severe. Trump is dismantling the entire arms-control regime, greatly increasing the risk of destruction, virtually inviting enemies to develop weapons to destroy us that we [won’t be able to] stop.

Trump is taking the worst aspects of capitalism, particularly the neoliberal version of capitalism, and amplifying them. Let’s just take the pandemic. Why is there a pandemic? In 2003, after the SARS epidemic, which was a coronavirus, it was well understood by scientists — they were saying, “Another coronavirus, much more serious than this, is very likely. Now here are the steps we have to take to prepare for it.” Somebody has to take the steps. Well, there is a pharmaceutical industry, but extraordinarily wealthy, huge labs can’t do it. You don’t spend money on something that might be important ten years from now — stopping a future catastrophe is not profitable. That’s a capitalist crisis.

Government has the resources; they have great labs. But then comes something called Ronald Reagan, at the beginning of the neoliberal assault on the population, arguing that government is the problem, not the solution — meaning we have to take decisions away from government. Government is influenced by people. Now we have to put [decisions] in the hands of unaccountable private institutions which have no influence from the public. In the United States, that’s sometimes called libertarianism. That’s the beginning of the neoliberal assault.

George H. W. Bush established a presidential scientific advisory council board. Obama called it into office, correctly, the first day of his administration and asked them to prepare a pandemic warning reaction system. A couple of weeks later, they came back with a system that was put in place. January 2017, the wrecker comes into office. First days of his administration, [Trump] dismantles the whole system to respond to a pandemic; started defunding the Centers for Disease Control [and Prevention] (CDC) and every health-related aspect of government, year after year. Eliminated programs of American scientists in China working with Chinese scientists to identify potential coronavirus threats and throws it out. So when [the coronavirus] hit, the United States was uniquely unprepared — thanks to the wrecker.

And then it got worse. He refused to react to it. Other countries responded to it, some of them very well and very quickly. It’s almost gone, mostly under control. Not in the United States. He didn’t care. For months, US intelligence couldn’t get the White House to say, “There’s a serious crisis.” Finally, according to reports, he noticed that the stock market was declining, and then said, “We have to do something.” What he has done is just chaos.

But a large part of the problem is pre-Trump. Why aren’t the hospitals ready? Well, they run on a business model. That’s neoliberalism. It has to be just-in-time delivery. They don’t want to lose a cent. So we don’t have an extra hospital bed; we have to make sure the CEOs of the private hospitals get millions of dollars a year in compensation. Can’t have an extra bed — you cut into that. So everything’s parroted above. The nursing homes, which are privately owned, are reduced to minimal functioning, because we can make more money that way, if we’re a private-equity corporation that owns them. Now we can contribute to Trump’s campaign so he can have a photo-op with us, telling us how wonderful we are for destroying the nursing homes, killing all the elderly people.

It goes deep into issues well before Trump, but he is a unique phenomenon — again, the worst criminal in human history, so his minor crimes are to destroy American democracy and to amplify a pandemic killing over a hundred thousand people. But those are minor crimes by his standards.
 

ceecee

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I'm kinda convinced you have an ever growing subset of the Republican party that hold such fervor for "owning the libs" that they'll push to do so even at the expense of the well-being of the country. It's not about politics and policy anymore with them, it's about winning at all costs and hurting those that they view opposite of their team.

The far left is a religious cult tho. lol

In reality, there is a huge sect of of the right that have always been heavily religious and it drives their core beliefs, even when they aren't religious. Ever notice that they self-identify as conservatives before anything else?

The rest fall in line like the followers they are. They allow their leader to tell them what to do, what to think, what to believe. Trump is mostly irrelevant here - they would follow any strongman that upheld their exclusionary and hateful policies, in government, in their church, in their city or family.

I do think that the idea that if the vast majority of people disagreeing with you = you must be right - is an epidemic on the right. That's what they're facing - becoming an ultra minority position so they have to tell you all your arguments are invalid and waken your credibility. Not theirs.
 

ceecee

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Any country with a large gdp, powerful military and good living standards can call itself great.

Doesn't matter how it accomplished it, what country it 'still' loots from and what group of people it enslaved; if you have those things above you can call yourselves great, because wealth speaks more than how you got it (people have short memories).

....

Getting to the Trump topic as a non-american I can appreciate any American president who doesn't invade other nations in the guise of democracy/freedom and continue to destroy, loot and create instability/fund terrorism. And I can also appreciate an American president who runs the USA economy well and doesn't interfere with the integrity of other nations.

So far Trump (though an immature crazy person) hasn't destroyed and looted any country like his past FIVE predecessors.

You're right. He hasn't publicly dropped any bombs on any other country, or destroyed any other countries or looted any other countries (that's up for debate). Under Donald Trump, drone strikes far exceed Obamas numbers - Chicago Sun-Times

Except for this country.

He actually believes he has never killed anyone because he hasn't bombed anything like John Bolton wanted to do. He believes he is not responsible for any deaths at all. I'm not even talking about COVID. I'm talking about the likely thousands of deaths in ICE custody, the death penalty reinstated at the federal level, the health care he strips from the poor and vulnerable Americans to gain GOP points and donor $$.

This in no way invalidates anything you posted or that the last five US presidents haven't been megalomaniacs to varying degrees, regarding American imperialism enforced with bombs and raping of resources all over the world. But a president that has turned on his own country, and he has, isn't a president. He's a fucking despot and he should be addressed and treated as one.
 

anticlimatic

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I get it. I've used things that worked on you on my uncle. It worked beautifully. If I can get my opponent frothing at the mouth without anything to back any of their ravings up, I've won. The key is to get them to shy away from discussion out of fear of having their beliefs called into question. Casting into doubt the alleged "logic and reason" of your opponent for observers seems effective. Yes, cults are all about debating things and free-thinkers hate debating things. It's incredibly important to not subject your own views to scrutiny, lest you fall victim to dogmatism. We all know the truths we've obtained through our intellectual brilliance are things that must be protected and sheltered from the world at large, rather than shared.
Are you having fun?
 
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Remember when you were part of the crazy far left if you were against the war in Iraq? Pepperidge farm remembers!

People who were against the war were described in much the same language as AOC. Good times. The chief difference was "Go to Iraq if you love Saddam" instead of "Go to Venezuela."

Republicans all marched lock step then, just like they do with Trump now.

So, yeah, I'm ok with being part of the crazy far left. We have a good track record on being right about things. Maybe in a decade or two lame-ass centrist Democrats will claim to have been with AOC all along.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Remember when you were part of the crazy far left if you were against the war in Iraq? Pepperidge farm remembers!

People who were against the war were described in much the same language as AOC. Good times. The chief difference was "Go to Iraq if you love Saddam" instead of "Go to Venezuela."

Republicans all marched lock step then, just like they do with Trump now.

So, yeah, I'm ok with being part of the crazy far left. We have a good track record on being right about things. Maybe in a decade or two lame-ass centrist Democrats will claim to have been with AOC all along.

Part of the problem with the left is the tendency to eat their own. It's really something we need to get past, but then it's understandable if you consider likely personality differences between people who tend left and people who tend right. We sometimes get so hung up on going after, say, an Al Franken or someone similar, that we end up executing some of the best allies we have.

The right on the other hand tends to be more passive about their in-group conflicts and disagreements, so ultimately they remain more unified. And moderates, who tend to be a little more passive, get coaxed into aligning with what from their point of view appear to be the more levelheaded side of politics in America. Not saying they actually are more levelheaded, just pointing out how they might be perceived as such by your average centrist voter who might be having misgivings about the left.
 

rav3n

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Part of the problem with the left is the tendency to eat their own. It's really something we need to get past, but then it's understandable if you consider likely personality differences between people who tend left and people who tend right. We sometimes get so hung up on going after, say, an Al Franken or someone similar, that we end up executing some of the best allies we have.

The right on the other hand tends to be more passive about their in-group conflicts and disagreements, so ultimately they remain more unified. And moderates, who tend to be a little more passive, get coaxed into aligning with what from their point of view appear to be the more levelheaded side of politics in America. Not saying they actually are more levelheaded, just pointing out how they might be perceived as such by your average centrist voter who might be having misgivings about the left.
The more extreme left apply purity tests and if anyone fails aka disagrees even a little, they're burned down. It's a dumb strategy since it divides the strength of numbers.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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The more extreme left apply purity tests and if anyone fails aka disagrees even a little, they're burned down. It's a dumb strategy since it divides the strength of numbers.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, you just worded it better. Sometimes they get so hung up in making sure their own and their allies meet their criteria that they lose sight of the bigger picture. Many of them are refusing to support Biden now because of the Reade allegations, at least based on what I'm seeing in some of the progressive groups I've joined on facebook.

There's a good chance we'd have a real progressive nominee now, for instance, if there hadn't been so much infighting between the Bernie progressives and the Warren progressives. I'd take either over Biden right now. But I kind of wish neither Bernie or Warren had run and instead both put their support behind a younger progressive to take on the moderates.
 

cascadeco

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No, it’s not great. And Donald Trump is making it worse. Noam Chomsky articulates it quite well in a recent interview with Jacobin:

Could you explain why what Donald Trump is doing institutionally actually is unique and does matter on its own terms?

This sounds strong, but it’s true: Trump is the worst criminal in history, undeniably. There has never been a figure in political history who was so passionately dedicated to destroying the projects for organized human life on earth in the near future.

That is not an exaggeration. People are focused now on the protests; the pandemic is serious enough that we will emerge from it at terrible cost. The cost is greatly amplified by the gangster in the White House, who has killed tens of thousands of Americans, making this the worst place in the world [for the coronavirus]. We will emerge [from the pandemic, but] we’re not going to emerge from another crime that Trump has committed, the heating of the globe. The worst of it is coming — we’re not going to emerge from that.

The ice sheets are melting; they’re not going to recover. That leads to exponential increase in global warming. Arctic glaciers, for example, could flood the world. Recent studies indicate that on the present course, in about fifty years, much of the habitable part of the world will be unlivable. You won’t be able to live in parts of South Asia, parts of the Middle East, parts of the United States. We’re approaching the point of 125,000 years ago, when sea levels were about twenty-five feet higher than they are now. And it’s worse than that. The Scripps Oceanographic Institute just came out with a study that estimated that we are coming ominously close to a point [similar to] 3 million years ago, when sea levels were fifty to eighty feet higher than they are today.

All around the world, countries are trying to do something about it. But there is one country which is led by a president who wants to escalate the crisis, to race toward the abyss, to maximize the use of fossil fuels, including the most dangerous of them, and to dismantle the regulatory apparatus that limits their impact. There is no crime like this in human history. Nothing. This is a unique individual. And it’s not as if he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Of course he does. It’s as if he doesn’t care. If he can pour more profits into his pockets and the pockets of his rich constituency tomorrow, who cares if the world disappears in a couple of generations?

As far as the government is concerned, we’re seeing something pretty interesting. Parliamentary democracy has been around for 350 years, starting in England in 1689 with the so-called Glorious Revolution, when sovereignty was transferred from the royalty to the parliament. The beginnings of parliamentary democracy in the United States [came] about a century later. Parliamentary democracy is not just based on laws and constitutions. In fact, the British constitution is maybe a dozen words. It’s based on trust and good faith, the assumption that people will act like human beings.

Take Richard Nixon. Pretty rotten guy, but when the time came that he had to leave office, he left office quietly. Nobody is expecting that with Trump. He doesn’t act like a human being. He’s off somewhere else. He [doesn’t] even make appointments that can be confirmed by the Senate. Why bother? I don’t like somebody, I’ll throw them out. One Republican, Lisa Murkowski, dares to raise a small question about his nobility, [and he] came down on her with a ton of bricks — I’m going to destroy you.

It’s not fascism. It’s what I said before: tin-pot dictator of some small country where they have coups every couple of years. That’s the mentality.

Congress, the Senate, happens to be in the hands of a soul mate of his, Mitch McConnell — in many ways the real evil genius of this administration, dedicated to destroying democracy long before Trump. When [Barack] Obama was elected, McConnell said openly to the public, “My main goal is to ensure that Obama can achieve nothing.” Okay. That’s saying, “I want to destroy parliamentary democracy,” which is based, as I said, in good faith and trust in the interchange.

The Senate. the so-called world’s greatest deliberative body, is reduced to passing legislation that will enrich the very rich, empowering the corporate sector, and making judicial appointments to stack the judiciary with young, ultraright, mostly incompetent justices who can ensure for a generation that no matter what the public wants, they’ll be able to block it.

It’s a deep hatred of democracy and fear of democracy. That’s not unusual among the elites; they don’t like democracy for obvious reasons. But this is something special.

That’s on top of the pandemic, on top of the global warming crisis, the crisis of nuclear weapons, which is equally severe. Trump is dismantling the entire arms-control regime, greatly increasing the risk of destruction, virtually inviting enemies to develop weapons to destroy us that we [won’t be able to] stop.

Trump is taking the worst aspects of capitalism, particularly the neoliberal version of capitalism, and amplifying them. Let’s just take the pandemic. Why is there a pandemic? In 2003, after the SARS epidemic, which was a coronavirus, it was well understood by scientists — they were saying, “Another coronavirus, much more serious than this, is very likely. Now here are the steps we have to take to prepare for it.” Somebody has to take the steps. Well, there is a pharmaceutical industry, but extraordinarily wealthy, huge labs can’t do it. You don’t spend money on something that might be important ten years from now — stopping a future catastrophe is not profitable. That’s a capitalist crisis.

Government has the resources; they have great labs. But then comes something called Ronald Reagan, at the beginning of the neoliberal assault on the population, arguing that government is the problem, not the solution — meaning we have to take decisions away from government. Government is influenced by people. Now we have to put [decisions] in the hands of unaccountable private institutions which have no influence from the public. In the United States, that’s sometimes called libertarianism. That’s the beginning of the neoliberal assault.

George H. W. Bush established a presidential scientific advisory council board. Obama called it into office, correctly, the first day of his administration and asked them to prepare a pandemic warning reaction system. A couple of weeks later, they came back with a system that was put in place. January 2017, the wrecker comes into office. First days of his administration, [Trump] dismantles the whole system to respond to a pandemic; started defunding the Centers for Disease Control [and Prevention] (CDC) and every health-related aspect of government, year after year. Eliminated programs of American scientists in China working with Chinese scientists to identify potential coronavirus threats and throws it out. So when [the coronavirus] hit, the United States was uniquely unprepared — thanks to the wrecker.

And then it got worse. He refused to react to it. Other countries responded to it, some of them very well and very quickly. It’s almost gone, mostly under control. Not in the United States. He didn’t care. For months, US intelligence couldn’t get the White House to say, “There’s a serious crisis.” Finally, according to reports, he noticed that the stock market was declining, and then said, “We have to do something.” What he has done is just chaos.

But a large part of the problem is pre-Trump. Why aren’t the hospitals ready? Well, they run on a business model. That’s neoliberalism. It has to be just-in-time delivery. They don’t want to lose a cent. So we don’t have an extra hospital bed; we have to make sure the CEOs of the private hospitals get millions of dollars a year in compensation. Can’t have an extra bed — you cut into that. So everything’s parroted above. The nursing homes, which are privately owned, are reduced to minimal functioning, because we can make more money that way, if we’re a private-equity corporation that owns them. Now we can contribute to Trump’s campaign so he can have a photo-op with us, telling us how wonderful we are for destroying the nursing homes, killing all the elderly people.

It goes deep into issues well before Trump, but he is a unique phenomenon — again, the worst criminal in human history, so his minor crimes are to destroy American democracy and to amplify a pandemic killing over a hundred thousand people. But those are minor crimes by his standards.

Thank you for sharing this.

fwiw, even a few decades ago, I never thought America was 'great' in the sense meant by this phrase, and patriotism by default is dumb; there are many places in the world that aim higher than the u.s., and leave the world and its people better off than the u.s. does. And of course there are worse places. I have historically felt the u.s. has many good attributes about it, but that is fast sinking and has been for years.
 

Lark

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I misread the thread title at a glance there and thought it read "America IS great now" and thought someone had posted some kind of response thread.
 
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