INTP vs. ISFJ-- the big showdown

[PeaceBaby]

FWIW, I feel a lot of 9 vibe, Fi not so much.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I don't know you well, but I've never gotten an SJ vibe from you.

I think p types (especially Ne ones) prefer having some limits set because otherwise you will just sit there motionless thinking of the 12 million ways something can play out.

Maybe you are more like an INtP.

 

[Thalassa]

Those limits are called "Si."

Without it to balance our Ne we'd have to have baby-sitters.

 

[Thalassa]

FWIW, I feel a lot of 9 vibe, Fi not so much.

Yeah I mean I'm sure if she read Jung's descriptions of the Introverted Thinking and Introverted Feeling personalities she would be absolutely certain of one or the other.

Since she's leaning more decisively toward Ti, I'll just throw in here that sometimes the OP strikes me as a "softer" NTP like Luna Lumanosity.

I would most likely believe INTP, but only she knows for sure if she has Fi or Ti.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Those limits are called "Si."

Without it to balance our Ne we'd have to have baby-sitters.

Ahh thats what Si is. Is that the part of me that's magical and pure?

 

[lunalum]

Ahh thats what Si is. Is that the part of me that's magical and pure?

Maybe. But mainly Si is Ne's babysitter, telling the kids that maybe playing tag in the dark or putting fireworks in the microwave isn't such a good idea

Maybe SuchIrony has developed a good babysitter...

Yeah I mean I'm sure if she read Jung's descriptions of the Introverted Thinking and Introverted Feeling personalities she would be absolutely certain of one or the other.

Since she's leaning more decisively toward Ti, I'll just throw in here that sometimes the OP strikes me as a "softer" NTP like Luna Lumanosity.

I would most likely believe INTP, but only she knows for sure if she has Fi or Ti.

Yeah, she does strike me as a softer NTP, like.... wait just a second there Just what is "soft" here? Sure I appreciate cute kittens and sugary sweets a little too much but I am also a whole lot of trouble

Anyway, yeah, I'm going with soft INTP with good Si babysitter at this point, based on what you have said.

 

[Thalassa]

Ahh thats what Si is. Is that the part of me that's magical and pure?

LOL. Si is a subjective set of internal sensory impressions. Some examples of Si working in the real world, "This food doesn't taste right." You can cook (hypothetically) because you remember seemingly instinctively how to make your favorite meals without a recipe, and know exactly what is "missing" by tasting what you're making. You can tell if something is "off" and doesn't taste the way you know it "should" taste.

Or the picture is crooked. Or this film doesn't align with your particular standards of aesthetics. You may have a very particular preference for how music should sound or how art should look, or a particular flavor of wine you always drink.

You may also store past experiences and facts kind of like a filing cabinet in your mind, and retrieve them in a linear fashion.

Mostly though, Si is an internal set of subjective sensory impressions. It is not the same thing as strength of memory though it does rely on past experience.

Si doms may take great pleasure in knowing every single little detail about their favorite subject or chosen field. They will hesitate and examine new information carefully to see how it aligns with their internal filing cabinet data base.

Si can concern itself often with things like health, safety, and security.

Si related neuroses may manifest in the form of either A) fearing things will always be repetitively the same OR B) conversely, things will be an out-of-control threat to your safety/security/familiar way of being.

 

[Such Irony]

ah, that was very insightful thanks and y'know I actually think you might be an INFP, what jumped out to me is the hating open ended questions thing, that seems very much like inferior Te, you also mentioned the rumination thing that occurs, thats typical of INFPs as well, much more so than INTPs but it does occur (it occurs with me, but not to the extent to which you described). I think you may relate to the paul james INTP profile, and if you are an INFP, that would make sense, as the functions are quite similar, and well both types are quite similar. I don't really get an SJ vibe from you honestly, I see an Fi-Si loop, and if anything the hypersensitivity is more pronounced being a 5-9, hell I'm one and i'm pretty sensitive. Have you gotten any ISFJ's opinions of this? lurk around the SJ section, I think you will find your answer, but yeah i agree SJ types aren't really well-represented. I'm sure it must be really confusing for you though, you'll find you're answer soon enough, but yeah I'm thinking INFP.

INFP is the third type I've been seriously considering. Not as much as ISFJ. I think I'm more of an Fe user than an Fi user now that I understand the cognitive functions better. Still not totally ruling out INFP though. INFP was suggested for me by a couple of forum members here a while back. I have asked ISFJs over on Personality Cafe and one thought ISFJ, one seemed noncommital in response (only you can decide), one wasn't sure, and one was certain I was INTP or ISFJ but not sure which. The biggest difference between me and the ISFJs is that most of them don't relate nearly as much to Ne as I do.

If your Fe is that low, I doubt you're an ISFJ.

I know someone who keeps claiming ISFJ who always tests much higher in Fi than Fe, though. He's totally an Si dom. He can't be anything other than an ISFJ or an ISTJ who is really really deep inside his tertiary feeling function to the point of not fully utilizing his Te.

But he scores higher on Te on Ti, so this is very suspect.

Still, he swears ISFJ.

*headdesk*

I think you're INTP or INFP. INFP could be the possibility that's overlooked here, and you're just using a ton of Si.

I have a lot of Si for an ENFP.

Yeah, my strong Si is what makes this all so confusing. I took a functions test and scored low on Fe yet I know function tests aren't very good. The Keys to Cognition one has some Fe questions that I don't think strong introverts like myself would relate much to because they involve more of a social facilitator role. I also think that same test tends to overrestimate Fi. My Fi was much greater than Fe on that test.

FWIW, I feel a lot of 9 vibe, Fi not so much.

I definitely have a lot of 9. I'm kind of unsure of my enneagram type at this moment as well. Do you think I'm more 9 than 5?

I don't know you well, but I've never gotten an SJ vibe from you.

I think p types (especially Ne ones) prefer having some limits set because otherwise you will just sit there motionless thinking of the 12 million ways something can play out.

Maybe you are more like an INtP.

Why don't you see SJ?

LOL. Si is a subjective set of internal sensory impressions. Some examples of Si working in the real world, "This food doesn't taste right." You can cook (hypothetically) because you remember seemingly instinctively how to make your favorite meals without a recipe, and know exactly what is "missing" by tasting what you're making. You can tell if something is "off" and doesn't taste the way you know it "should" taste.

Or the picture is crooked. Or this film doesn't align with your particular standards of aesthetics. You may have a very particular preference for how music should sound or how art should look, or a particular flavor of wine you always drink.

You may also store past experiences and facts kind of like a filing cabinet in your mind, and retrieve them in a linear fashion.

Mostly though, Si is an internal set of subjective sensory impressions. It is not the same thing as strength of memory though it does rely on past experience.

Si doms may take great pleasure in knowing every single little detail about their favorite subject or chosen field. They will hesitate and examine new information carefully to see how it aligns with their internal filing cabinet data base.

Si can concern itself often with things like health, safety, and security.

Si related neuroses may manifest in the form of either A) fearing things will always be repetitively the same OR B) conversely, things will be an out-of-control threat to your safety/security/familiar way of being.

Good explanation. This is a good description of how Si manifests in myself.

 

[Eric B]

The strong Si traits would be from the tertiary. The tertiary often "inflates" itself and becomes strong. And since Si is a "J" (Je/Pi) function, it might increase J traits. Like I identified to some extent with the "need for closure" on one of the tests (Keirsey?) and this would be connected with tertiary Si, but otherwise, I'm typical P in not demanding as much of the closure J's usually want.

Also, having more sensitivity than other INTP's would seem to be from you being Supine rather than Phlegmatic (which is what the typical INTP profile is based on). That temperament is a lot more sensitive than the Phlegmatic, which is usually indifferent and can take people or leave them. I had explained all of this before.
Sensitivity is not necessarily F. Like we're discussing over on PerC in one or two threads about extraversion and functions, temperament (Including Interaction Style) also shapes some of these behaviors, apart from functions.

And personal experience affects these things as well.

 

[Xenon]

About emotional sensitivity, I don't think it's all that unusual. I recall a thread on INTP central about 'Highly Sensitive Persons' and there were actually quite a few INTPs who identified with these traits. That's one reason my post in this thread specifically listed things that were "anti-stereotypical" rather than "atypical". I think quite a few traits that run counter to stereotype actually aren't as unusual as people think, and that goes for other types as well. Based purely on my own observations, it seems Fs tend to be on the sensitive side, but Ts can really be all over the place.

Anyway, do you relate all that strongly to either of the Feeling functions? Do you read other poster's descriptions about what really bothers Fe users, or what's important to an Fi user, and think, "Yes! That's me"? That's what makes an F, not emotional sensitivity. Although the kind of things you're sensitive to, and why, can sometimes give you a clue.

 

[Mal12345]

N's are more influenced by the mother, S's are more influenced by the father.

 

[Tallulah]

"highly sensitive persons" doesn't usually refer to emotional sensitivity or getting your feelings hurt easily. It's more like not being able to stand loud noises, bright lights, lots of activity, etc.

 

[Xenon]

"highly sensitive persons" doesn't usually refer to emotional sensitivity or getting your feelings hurt easily. It's more like not being able to stand loud noises, bright lights, lots of activity, etc.

The descriptions list a lot of sensory stuff like that, but they also list characteristics of emotional sensitivity. Things like: being easily affected by others' moods, responding emotionally to art or music or literature, having a "rich inner life", being considered shy or oversensitive as a child.

I'm not convinced getting your feelings hurt easily has much to do with either type or biological "high sensitivity". I think it has more to do with your own insecurities and the meaning you assign to others' words or behaviour. It's likely that certain types will assign more importance to certain things, so the situations and reasons that cause someone to feel hurt/upset might give you clues about type.

 

[Thalassa]

N's are more influenced by the mother, S's are more influenced by the father.

What's all this? I don't think so, bro.

My ISTJ grandfather was my most consistent parent.

 

[Thalassa]

Good explanation. This is a good description of how Si manifests in myself.

Thank you. I have a lot of Si, to the point of questioning if I was INFP because I even use a lot of sensory memory detail in my creative writing (the tert is supposed to be a creative or relief function, and I am also relieved by cooking which is why I used the cooking example and like to listen to my old favorite songs over and over again, which apparently is a hallmark of Si...having a deep emotional attachment to certain music, only liking it more and finding new things about it with repetition, instead of constantly demanding to hear something "new"...though I like new music, too, of course).

But I have so many ENFP traits aside from my Si strength that I dunno.

I've also been around a lot of SJs, ones I've strongly cared about so it's been important for me to understand Si because the stereotypes are so fucking lame and untrue.

 

[OrangeAppled]

The descriptions list a lot of sensory stuff like that, but they also list characteristics of emotional sensitivity. Things like: being easily affected by others' moods, responding emotionally to art or music or literature, having a "rich inner life", being considered shy or oversensitive as a child.

Yes, it basically means being easily overwhelmed by external stimuli, some of which may be sensory, but other stuff maybe intangible, emotional aspects. The overwhelmed feeling seems like it is mostly emotional & instinctive, but there seems some tie to cognitive preference also.

Many introverts will relate to aspects of being highly sensitive (for obvious reasons), but especially INxx types. Of extroverts, ENPs seem most likely to be HSPs, likely because they're N-dom and sensory stuff is not their preference for mental stimulation.

I'm not convinced getting your feelings hurt easily has much to do with either type or biological "high sensitivity". I think it has more to do with your own insecurities and the meaning you assign to others' words or behaviour. It's likely that certain types will assign more importance to certain things, so the situations and reasons that cause someone to feel hurt/upset might give you clues about type.

I think this is true also.... I used to think I was very sensitive, but then being withdrawn, I did not socialize with a lot of people & had few to compare myself to. One summer, I socialized with this group and noticed that most of the women were waaaay more sensitive than I was to joke insults and easily got their feelings hurt from generally insensitive comments. I realized that my sensitivity is just to unexpected things - I will feel hurt or be affected by something others do not, yet, I'll let things roll off my back that others do not. So I'd still say I am sensitive, but not any more so than others, just in a different way.

Personally, INTPs seem hyper-sensitive to what they likely see as logical inconsistencies, and they appear to get emotional about it (what they'll call "frustration", but since when is frustration not an emotion?). They seem to get agitated easily over things others might deem minor, but they're otherwise calm & usually see themselves that way.

/tangent
-----

In regards to the OP, this is terribly simple, but I'm still going to say it:
When people consider two types that share two letters, it seems so common that the reality is that they are the type between the two (ie. I relate to both INTP & ISFP, but that's because I am INFP & the Ne & Fi from each respective type are familiar). So if you feel caught between INTP & ISFJ, then INFJ seems a possibility. I know you're considering it from the standpoint of cognitive processes, but sometimes two processes seem to mimic another when it comes to behavior. A lot of what you mention you relate to in ISFJs seems more like Fe than Si to me also....

 

[Such Irony]

The strong Si traits would be from the tertiary. The tertiary often "inflates" itself and becomes strong. And since Si is a "J" (Je/Pi) function, it might increase J traits. Like I identified to some extent with the "need for closure" on one of the tests (Keirsey?) and this would be connected with tertiary Si, but otherwise, I'm typical P in not demanding as much of the closure J's usually want.

Also, having more sensitivity than other INTP's would seem to be from you being Supine rather than Phlegmatic (which is what the typical INTP profile is based on). That temperament is a lot more sensitive than the Phlegmatic, which is usually indifferent and can take people or leave them. I had explained all of this before.
Sensitivity is not necessarily F. Like we're discussing over on PerC in one or two threads about extraversion and functions, temperament (Including Interaction Style) also shapes some of these behaviors, apart from functions.

And personal experience affects these things as well.

I agree with all this.

About emotional sensitivity, I don't think it's all that unusual. I recall a thread on INTP central about 'Highly Sensitive Persons' and there were actually quite a few INTPs who identified with these traits. That's one reason my post in this thread specifically listed things that were "anti-stereotypical" rather than "atypical". I think quite a few traits that run counter to stereotype actually aren't as unusual as people think, and that goes for other types as well. Based purely on my own observations, it seems Fs tend to be on the sensitive side, but Ts can really be all over the place.

Thanks for the insight. I am an HSP and come to think of it I know of some other INTPs who would also fit that description.

Anyway, do you relate all that strongly to either of the Feeling functions? Do you read other poster's descriptions about what really bothers Fe users, or what's important to an Fi user, and think, "Yes! That's me"? That's what makes an F, not emotional sensitivity. Although the kind of things you're sensitive to, and why, can sometimes give you a clue.

Occasionally I do. I should read more of the posts in the NF forum to see how well they resonate with me. I remember relating to what some of the INFJs said regarding their Fe use a while back.

I'm particularly sensitive to having my competency and intelligence insulted, which may be more an NT thing.

N's are more influenced by the mother, S's are more influenced by the father.

How? Why ?

Thank you. I have a lot of Si, to the point of questioning if I was INFP because I even use a lot of sensory memory detail in my creative writing (the tert is supposed to be a creative or relief function, and I am also relieved by cooking which is why I used the cooking example and like to listen to my old favorite songs over and over again, which apparently is a hallmark of Si...having a deep emotional attachment to certain music, only liking it more and finding new things about it with repetition, instead of constantly demanding to hear something "new"...though I like new music, too, of course).

But I have so many ENFP traits aside from my Si strength that I dunno.

I've also been around a lot of SJs, ones I've strongly cared about so it's been important for me to understand Si because the stereotypes are so fucking lame and untrue.

I also have songs I like to listen to over and over again. I don't get tired of it because each time I listen to it feels new somehow. There's new sorts of impressions to get. I also like new music too.

In regards to the OP, this is terribly simple, but I'm still going to say it:
When people consider two types that share two letters, it seems so common that the reality is that they are the type between the two (ie. I relate to both INTP & ISFP, but that's because I am INFP & the Ne & Fi from each respective type are familiar). So if you feel caught between INTP & ISFJ, then INFJ seems a possibility. I know you're considering it from the standpoint of cognitive processes, but sometimes two processes seem to mimic another when it comes to behavior. A lot of what you mention you relate to in ISFJs seems more like Fe than Si to me also....

I have considered INFJ and I know a couple of people who have suggested it for my type. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on cognitive functions, but I look at the INFJ profile, I just don't relate that much to dominant Ni. I consider myself an Ne user not an Ni user. I do relate somewhat to the auxiliary Fe/tertiary Ti part.

 

[Eric B]

Thanks for the insight. I am an HSP and come to think of it I know of some other INTPs who would also fit that description.

Never heard of that as a psychological category. Sounds sort of like aspects of AS in some respects.

I also have songs I like to listen to over and over again. I don't get tired of it because each time I listen to it feels new somehow. There's new sorts of impressions to get. I also like new music too.

Me too. I used to spend my days off listening to a few playlists on the computer or Napster. Last winter, when the holiday music began playing on Music Choice, and I found I could now play it on the PC instead of just cable, then I began listening to that, and after the holidays, I just keep it on mostly the Classic R&B channel, which is a bigger selection, but still the same stuff over and over.

I have considered INFJ and I know a couple of people who have suggested it for my type. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on cognitive functions, but I look at the INFJ profile, I just don't relate that much to dominant Ni. I consider myself an Ne user not an Ni user. I do relate somewhat to the auxiliary Fe/tertiary Ti part.

A lot of INTP's with T/F uncertainty get confused with INFJ. It's when you're sure you're N, but not completely sure about T/F. A lot of them do get strong Ni on the cognitive tests, so it seems they could go either way. My Ni is weak, so I never had that problem. ISFJ would then be closer, cognitively, but then you're dealing with S/N, and I know I'm definitely N, and you seem so too. (INFJ is also directive).

 

[Such Irony]

A lot of INTP's with T/F uncertainty get confused with INFJ. It's when you're sure you're N, but not completely sure about T/F. A lot of them do get strong Ni on the cognitive tests, so it seems they could go either way. My Ni is weak, so I never had that problem. ISFJ would then be closer, cognitively, but then you're dealing with S/N, and I know I'm definitely N, and you seem so too. (INFJ is also directive).

I typically score 70-90% N on tests. Yet I still have reasons for doubting N as I listed earlier in this thread. Some of the S/N questions aren't that good and if you happen to be a highly intelligent, introspective individual, you might find yourself choosing the N option whether or not you're actually N.

 

[JocktheMotie]

You have SiTi as your type, and if Si is higher than Ti then I'm going to have to say ISFJ. And, like Peacebaby, I also get the 9 vibe. Ever since your thread on your mom and not being able to cut her off.