[NT] INTP vs INTJ - who is more manipulative?

[Antimony]

Dear child,

On this particular post I am pointing out to you by asking you a question that there is a difference between ego and narcissism.



In this particular post you are telling me there is NO difference by asking me where I see the difference between ego and narcissism.

--------------------------------

WTF?

Oh, I was asking where YOUR idea of the difference came in. That came out a little wrong, I mean to express that...actually, I have no idea

I am not being very articulate, sorry. What is the difference that the two have in manipulating, I guess.

 

[VagrantFarce]

The problem with your remark and his is that typology as conceived of by Jung is a study of the human mind or people's cognitive habits. These matters aren't easily researchable empirically because people's behavior does not indicate the nature of their mind-states with sufficient precision. An equation of behavior with mind-states has long been regarded as untenable by all academic disciplines with the minor exception of some spurious sub-disciplines in psychology.

Until neuroscience is able to precisely identify the nature of our cognitive states and their neural causes, we will not be able to employ an empirical approach in the study of typology. Since that is the case, a scientific inquiry into the subject or psychological and sociological cannot be acceptable. This result leaves us with no choice but to embrace the philosophical method of inquiry.

Don't ruin my fun with your Extraverted Thinking stance!

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Ps - Are you an android?

Are you an idiot?

Don't ruin my fun with your Extraverted Thinking stance!

What do you understand for Extroverted Thinking to be?

 

[Riva]

Are you an idiot?

But I like to imagine you as Data from Star trek.

Ps - Are you an android?

Lore not Data.

 

[tcda]

Can attempts to troll SW go in another thread, please?

 

[VagrantFarce]

What do you understand for Extroverted Thinking to be?

Well, your insistence on empirical evidence - in order to "legitimize" the functions in the eyes of others rather than just your own - sounds like Extraverted Thinking to me. To demonstrate it with causal rationality that everyone can agree on, so long as they just look at the evidence and follow the steps. I'm not saying that's somehow bad, by the way, I was just making a joke.

 

[tcda]

Well, your insistence on empirical evidence - in order to "legitimize" the functions in the eyes of others rather than just your own - sounds like Extraverted Thinking to me. To demonstrate it with causal rationality that everyone can agree on, so long as they just look at the evidence and follow the steps. I'm not saying that's somehow bad, by the way, I was just making a joke.

This goes back to the discussion we had before. I don't see how that contradicts with the definitions I've read of Ti. It just seems an arbitrary dividing line. surely someone who works in the way describedby the Ti descriptions, would do what you described as well. At least that's my experience.

another thing is that we shouldn't confuse peoples understandings of science and philosophy with personalty type, surely? I know empiricist INTP's and metaphysical INTJ's for example.

 

[ajblaise]

INTPs are more socially adaptable and keen, but they usually just don't give a fuck about using manipulation. INTJs go to bed praying every night for the powers of manipulation (yes, their belief in God hinges only on that one wish) but they're socially blind and unperceptive fools who can never get passed Phase 1 of their plan.

 

[VagrantFarce]

This goes back to the discussion we had before. I don't see how that contradicts with the definitions I've read of Ti. It just seems an arbitrary dividing line. surely someone who works in the way describedby the Ti descriptions, would do what you described as well. At least that's my experience.

Ti is more gestalt -it's an individualistic, holistic understanding of the variables present in any situation. It therefore feels like you're being guided by an internal barometer (which is why it often gets confused with Fi), allowing your outer behaviour to react perceptually and make things up as you go. Therefore it doesn't necessarily require empirical evidence - just a sense of logical coherence and How Things Work.

Te isn't just about empirical evidence, but it is about outward, rational behaviour - planning your behaviour in steps, ensuring that decisions and relationships are based on what can be trusted to happen, and ensuring a predictable and measurable outcome. Because you're expecting a measurable and predictable outcome, you would often rely upon empirical evidence to ensure that it will happen.

Of course, Ti types can choose to gather empirical evidence to legitimize their thoughts - something which, I think, is motivated by Extraverted Feeling more than Extraverted Thinking itself - and Te types can choose to understanding things for themselves, something which I think is motivated by Introverted Feeling rather than Introverted Thinking.

 

[visaisahero]

Ti/Ne and Ni/Te are both capable of manipulation; it really depends on the effectiveness of the individual.

I know several INTJs and INTPs in real life, and all the INTPs are far better at "manipulation" (I'd rather call it political savvy) than the INTJs. The INTJs I know TRY to manipulate people and scenarios to suit their needs, but it's painfully obvious and seldom effective. The INTPs on the other hand tend to quietly always get their way through subtler means.

Then and again, to be fair, the INTPs I know are older and more matured than the INTJs, who are mostly still struggling to come into their own. I would say it boils down to having an acute understanding of other people's motivations, wants and needs- I think Ti/Ne is better suited to it than Ni/Te, but I'm biased being Ne/Ti myself. Go figure.

 

[tcda]

Ti/Ne and Ni/Te are both capable of manipulation; it really depends on the effectiveness of the individual.

I know several INTJs and INTPs in real life, and all the INTPs are far better at "manipulation" (I'd rather call it political savvy) than the INTJs. The INTJs I know TRY to manipulate people and scenarios to suit their needs, but it's painfully obvious and seldom effective. The INTPs on the other hand tend to quietly always get their way through subtler means.

This sounds like my experiences too. The INTP is more adaptable and through Ne-Fe backed up by Ti, can really "live" the bullshit, i.e. momentarily believe the line they are spinning.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Well, your insistence on empirical evidence - in order to "legitimize" the functions in the eyes of others rather than just your own - sounds like Extraverted Thinking to me.

I never required any empirical evidence, go back and reread my posts. I only insisted that you provide a definition of Te.

.

To demonstrate it with causal rationality that everyone can agree on, so long as they just look at the evidence and follow the steps. I'm not saying that's somehow bad, by the way, I was just making a joke.

Is that the definition?

 

[VagrantFarce]

I never required any empirical evidence, go back and reread my posts. I only insisted that you provide a definition of Te.

Buh? You criticised what I was saying because it doesn't benefit "an empirical approach":

The problem with your remark and his is that typology as conceived of by Jung is a study of the human mind or people's cognitive habits. These matters aren't easily researchable empirically because people's behavior does not indicate the nature of their mind-states with sufficient precision. An equation of behavior with mind-states has long been regarded as untenable by all academic disciplines with the minor exception of some spurious sub-disciplines in psychology.

Until neuroscience is able to precisely identify the nature of our cognitive states and their neural causes, we will not be able to employ an empirical approach in the study of typology. Since that is the case, a scientific inquiry into the subject or psychological and sociological cannot be acceptable. This result leaves us with no choice but to embrace the philosophical method of inquiry.

But regardless, my response was a joke, and you're obviously a humourless bastard who doesn't want to play, so I'll leave you alone.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Buh? You criticised what I was saying because it doesn't benefit "an empirical approach":

No, because it had a number of conceptual flaws. I don't even need to cite any empirical fact to refute what you came up with.

 

[Bob Smith]

I would say that INTPs have more potential to be better manipulator then INTJs. INTP spend most of their life understanding principle of arguments. When I try to convince someone (not in a bad way) I (INTP) always analyze the situation from objective point of view to figure out what the situation is. Each of my word that I say or write is carefully thought out to convince other people to believe what I say is correct. I make sure that I appear like I actually believe what I say and magnify facts that support my argument and reduce the importance or not mention facts that I can think of, that would disagree with my statement that I present to other people. So basically everything INTPs say is well thought out argument to achieve what they logically planned out in their head to convince other people to look at things from the point of view that they constructed.

 

[RAP-2698]

Sorry for my bad english. Just simple, extrovert people usually more manipulative than introvert people.
I guess both ENTP and ESFJ that always could be manipulative. ESFJ with emotional manipulation skill, and ENTP with rational manipulation skill.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Ti/Ne and Ni/Te are both capable of manipulation; it really depends on the effectiveness of the individual.

I know several INTJs and INTPs in real life, and all the INTPs are far better at "manipulation" (I'd rather call it political savvy) than the INTJs. The INTJs I know TRY to manipulate people and scenarios to suit their needs, but it's painfully obvious and seldom effective. The INTPs on the other hand tend to quietly always get their way through subtler means.

Then and again, to be fair, the INTPs I know are older and more matured than the INTJs, who are mostly still struggling to come into their own. I would say it boils down to having an acute understanding of other people's motivations, wants and needs- I think Ti/Ne is better suited to it than Ni/Te, but I'm biased being Ne/Ti myself. Go figure.

Lol, it's obvious when INTJs manipulate? I didn't know that. I can't really remember the last time I ever tried it(though I know I have tried at some point) but I don't know if I ever realized it was obvious. Though, I am sure I would have realized I failed. That definitely doesn't sound good

 

[JClassic]

INTJ's of course are better at manipulation but both probably equally have same amount of Machiavellian tendencies (just one is better at it than the other). While both can share the same intentions of wanting to manipulate, the INTJ has better follow through with plans than the perceiving INTP. So yes INTJ are more calculating and better with their manipulation.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Honestly, I think this depends more on how you define manipulation. INTJs and INTPs are better at different kinds of manipulation. INTPs are better at manipulating things on the dot and without planning. (in retrospect though, I feel like I can see through it a lot) But they do manipulate people pretty well now that I think about it.

But INTJs are better when it is planned in advanced. They can't do the same on-the-spot type of manipulation that INTPs do naturally, but I actually think I have manipulated some things before. And it is usually something that is more planned in advanced(with my Ni-Te)- times I have tried to do it on the dot I think might have failed now that I think of it. And those times were when I was more immature as well. I think age is a big factor in determining this too. We just have different skills, that's all.

 

[FemMecha]

Different types of manipulation, but both can excel at it in certain individuals.

Ti-Ne or Ne-Ti manipulation was rather well characterized in the movie "Catch Me if You Can'". They can play with perception and internal ideas to influence what you think. They are be quick to pick up on linguistic nuances and copy these to achieve various ends. This approach is skilled at controlling the internal perceptions of others to achieve personal ends.

example of INTP or ENTP manipulation style

I agree that Ni-Te or Te-Ni manipulation is more strategic and focuses more on external behaviors. I knew one perfectly nice INTJ who enjoy conceptualizing ways to control behavior. For example, he knew an individual who weighed 500lbs and who lived in a parasitic manner, so the INTJ enjoyed conceptualizing treadmills that would reward such an individual with intermittent snacks, but maintaining less calorie intake than expenditure to effective control behaviors. An INTJ that desired to manipulate could easily study behavioral therapy and then apply its principles. Sheldon Cooper demonstrates this.

example of INTJ or ENTJ manipulation style