[ENFJ] INTP + ENFJ = ?

[LUBUS]

It's like I can do nothing, and still turn her on. It's like a no effort situation when it comes to interpersonal communication. The only saboteur tends to be foul moods, often brought on by an absence of Fe expression...which I suppose could be where the 'effort' part of the relationship kicks in.

I've experienced this. How come it is that easy with them?...The only critique I've received was that «I was quite difficult to cheer up». But otherwise, I rarely get bored with them. In your opinion, would this happen with most ESFJs? Does that N play an essential part?

 

[skylights]

Maybe you are using one example to defeat the many. Not saying there isn't a lack of positive support, but I don't think what you've described is common behavior. I don't go out of my way to point out criticisms like that, that sounds more like xxTJ territory.

No, this is a fairly common occurrence, to the extent we have had family discussions over it, and he has agreed that he vocalizes criticism much more frequently than support. But he was raised in a household that was very critical - his father was a military officer and very controlling, and his mother was passive in response to their father and at the same time very competitive. But he is definitely INTP, tested and self-ID'd. I do not think he is necessarily an "average" example, but I wanted to provide my parents' relationship as an example of a fairly successful INTP-ExFJ couple.

I don't just randomly point out "objective truths," someone would've needed to ask. Also, are you an extrovert? ExFx would obviously be more "needy" in the attention department than an introvert, though introverts complain as well. It all boils down to whether you can legitimately appreciate what the INTP considers showing affection (actions, usually, maybe touch, not so much words). The INTP may also be particularly proud of their method of showing affection, considering it more meaningful, and therefore even if they could change to something more typically demanded (words), they'd probably not choose to. They have a big problem with empty compliments. If that cannot be reconciled, then you'll have problems.

Yes. I am an extravert, and I have had to learn my father's quieter way of showing support. Like I was mentioning before, I think his family history played into him being shy about showing emotion or warmth in general. I assume that is part of what he liked about my ESFJ mom - she's no frills, no fuss, independent, but she's also warm and encouraging and welcoming. My dad does demonstrate love in actions, especially as a self-preservation type. He will take good care of the house, the cars, etc. Yesterday I came home to spend the night at my parents' and he'd fixed up a torn iPhone cord of mine - used white electrical tape to wrap around the base where the protective rubber had split and banded it so the tape wouldn't come up. That's his quiet sort of caring. It's sweet and kind. And I'm not saying that she doesn't do things that strain the relationship, either - she tends to overreact and get anxious, and will stretch herself too thin in a martyr-like way.

Also, I've seen those who meet the needs of those who want more words and more positive support, and it's almost like they are killing themselves doing it, and it seems to carve out a big chunk of their time, attention, and life, and it's strange that this is the expected norm. I don't think I'd ever be able to do that, or that I'd ever be comfortable doing that, even if I wanted to. It doesn't help that I get annoyed when people shower me with this BS. It means nothing to me. Do something to show that you care. That's clearly harder anyway. Words can so frequently and so easily mean nothing, but then again women fall for this BS all the time (BS when it comes from the wrong people). It's just strange to me. I don't know, maybe that's why the INTP has such little luck with women, and maybe that's why snake oil and other types who shower women with compliments, etc, pick them up left and right. On some level, I find it repulsive, and would rather not end up with women that are this gullible, or this needy, or this unable to appreciate what I'd be willing to slave over, but maybe I don't have a choice.

Actually it's interesting you bring this up, there is a discussion on the Love Languages in another thread. If you haven't heard of the idea, it's basically the categorization of ways of showing affection into: gift-giving, quality time, "words of affirmation", physical touch, and "acts of service". My suspicion is that INTPs typically don't prefer to give or receive affection in "words of affirmation". Some people do. It's actually not overwhelmingly high on my preferences either, and I date a guy who doesn't vocalize much affection directly, actually. But he is polite and respectful, and to me that is important. I'm not a big fan of super effusive guys either, personally, in terms of relationships, but I think women are probably more likely to prefer giving/receiving "words of affirmation", and perhaps tend to feel pleased when we find someone who does.

As for noticing the little things, I don't know. On the one hand the person worked hard on it and wants to be acknowledged (so hopefully it was worth doing, rather than something the other party doesn't care about), but on the other hand, I'd be annoyed if someone were to point out every single thing I did, or try to compliment me on it. Maybe that position has wired out such behavior from me.

I guess it boils down to the fact that you want to be showered with compliments and I love yous, whether you admit to it or not, and it's then about who would be able to provide such an environment, because I doubt that would be an INTP. Maybe some INTPs can live in an environment where their natural inclinations aren't appreciated, but if I were personally complained to like this, then I would think the relationship should end. Becoming more "supportive" than I already am seems impossible, and I'd probably talk myself out of it at some point, so I wouldn't bother. That is, I think this is one thing about myself (talking about me personally) that I wouldn't want to change, even though it's such a common complaint. I'd start looking for someone that cares about other things. And with this all, I'm not saying that words don't matter, or that compliments don't matter, or that I don't give compliments/support at all, I'm saying that if what's needed exceeds my ability to give, and it's that big a deal, then I'd bow out.

Well, and I think it's good you know yourself to that extent. I think we all have to figure out what we can deal with and what we can't. I know I can deal with less verbal affirmation on the part of my boyfriend if he's touchy-feely with me, for example. I would much rather have the physical contact; it means more to me. In her relationship, my mom can deal with plenty of alone time and being the only planner and day-to-day practical maintainer and child-rearer. I think the lack of verbal affirmation is a point at which she strains more to meet him. And he strains when she is having a big emotional reaction and being super anxious. But overall, it still works for them.

What I also notice is that in relationships where this is a problem, the other partner usually ends up cheating, or they end up with the victim mentality, projecting all manner of negative shit and hatred onto the other person. I don't think that's a workable environment. But what I've also noticed is that not all women are like this.

Interesting. I don't know about the first part. I do agree that if you have a demanding partner, or one who is always needy, then they are more likely to feel like a victim, project, and cheat. I don't think seeking verbal affirmation necessarily has to be a part of that, though. I guess it's just degrees- to what extent. Some people obviously need to find more verbally effusive partners, and they're probably not going to want INTPs. But like you said, not all women are like that, and I'd go so far as to say not all ExFJs are like that.

Some INTP+ENFJ relationships work, but did I mention that I think it's a bad idea? I don't think it's the best situation to get caught up in. But more accurate would be a relationship in which you are incompatible, or in which your desired methods of showing affection, support, are not aligned is not a good idea.

Yes, exactly.

What is pleasing especially though I think is when you fill one another's gaps. I feel like INTP - ExFJ is a fairly common pairing, and I suspect it has something to do with the balance struck of the INTP covering the ExFJ's weak spots while the ExFJ covers the INTP's weak spots. But with some degree of shared viewpoints too, of course. And of course it will vary from person to person what they can tolerate... I am sure some Ts could only pair with other Ts while some Ts would prefer Fs.

What about the INTP? Does the INTP just not care, or are they happy? Showering me with compliments would annoy me, not backing up your words (rarely do I need verbal support) with actions would annoy me, doing things that you try to force me to appreciate when I actually don't care about them would bother me. I don't know. Maybe it's all about the women in these situations, because they are so convinced that they are delivering what the other party wants and it's their needs that aren't being met, but I think it goes the other way as well. Maybe it gets confusing or unclear because I don't go around complaining or being bothered by every single little thing, or maybe it's because I'm easy to please and low maintenance, or maybe it's because I'm a thinker, I don't know, but maybe the INTP is happy inspite of you, not because of what you are doing. This thing goes both ways.

No, I don't think it ever should be all about the woman. It must always go both ways. I am not trying to make it sound like my dad should be the one kowtowing in this situation. As I mentioned before, my mom creates strain, too. As do I for my SO in my own relationship. I think both partners have to keep an eye out on whether their own needs are being met and whether they are adequately meeting the needs of the other.

My suspicion in all pairings is that it has everything to do with the individuals involved. I feel like type is almost never enough information to sufficiently predict the relationship any further than very generalized patterns. It will depend on each person's preferences, upbringing, values, behaviors, and so on. So ENFJ + INTP? I think it could work if the ENFJ prefers a cooler, more logical, more laid-back partner, while the INTP prefers a more outgoing, expressive, enthusiastic, and directive partner. As for the rest of the variables... it all depends on how much each can take and each can give. Fe + Ti has worked out for an ESFJ 2w1 sp/so female and an INTP 5w6 sp/sx male. That is all I have to contribute, in the end.

 

[baccheion]

No, this is a fairly common occurrence, to the extent we have had family discussions over it, and he has agreed that he vocalizes criticism much more frequently than support. But he was raised in a household that was very critical - his father was a military officer and very controlling, and his mother was passive in response to their father and at the same time very competitive. But he is definitely INTP, tested and self-ID'd. I do not think he is necessarily an "average" example, but I wanted to provide my parents' relationship as an example of a fairly successful INTP-ExFJ couple.

What I meant was to not use the one example (your father) to represent the general INTP, as in this case his behavior (as you interpret it) doesn't seem to match with what commonly occurs, though it does fit with the common (unfounded) complaints of others.

Type can't really be relied upon to predict compatibility and relationship strength, but it does provide insight, and can usually predict the outcome in the general case. That is, if you put a random INTP with a random ENFJ, then you will have problems more often than not, and these problems will be even more severe if it's an INTP with an ESFJ. I think a relationship between these types working (past a superficial level) is more an exception, rather than a rule. And why should you put all this work into having an average or barely functioning relationship, when you could find someone more compatible (by whatever means you deem appropriate) and then put work in to take the relationship to a transcendent level. This has often been an unrealistic expectation, but with various forms of online dating coming into play, and with all that's now known and is common knowledge about relationships, it should be much easier to realize.

I bring up the INTPs side of the story, because with Fe dominants (ESFJs especially) there is usually a lot of complaining, or a lot of thinking that's along the lines of "everything I do is important, and I don't get any appreciation for it, and what the other person is doing is just standard stuff, or not important at all, and I'm the only one pulling my weight" regardless of the reality. That is, there is a tendency to undervalue the other person's contributions, and then when they've convinced themselves that they are the victims or are being used they begin to lay on the bullshit compliments (they can't give the compliment until they've found some way to not mean it) to further their delusion that they are somehow the only ones contributing.

While I, again, can agree that type can't predict relationships too well, I would think it unwise to use that reasoning to then decide that a person of one type (INTP) should partner up with someone that's the opposite of them (ESFJ, ESFP, whatever), because that seems like a waste of effort, and a great way to end up enduring a relationship that's nowhere near what it could've been had one partner or another been a different, more compatible type. I suppose what I would be against is the use of type to try to break up a happy relationship just because the two parties have types that are normally not compatible. I would also be against pigeonholing anyone, or excluding anyone from being with another person because of their type (mostly because this is robbery of freedom and choice).

 

[anticlimatic]

I've experienced this. How come it is that easy with them?...The only critique I've received was that «I was quite difficult to cheer up». But otherwise, I rarely get bored with them. In your opinion, would this happen with most ESFJs? Does that N play an essential part?

I think it does, because in the case of ENFJs it's Ni, rather than Ne in ESFJs, not to mention it's a little bit stronger. Ni paired with Fe is a pretty outstanding combo for an INTP to deal with (see also INFJs). It tends to let them 'read' INTPs, without having to 'talk it out' so much (though they do need to talk about their own emotional stuff), but it goes a long way towards giving an INTP some of that much needed space, when they can just short-cut all the long 'talk about your feelings' stuff that can get a little draining and repetitive with ESFJs, warm and earnest as they might be. Also I've found that Ni users tend to appreciate Ne user's creativity, whereas two Ne users will almost compete for it if they're working together on something.

 

[Allskyblue]

I'm quite in a hurry, so I did not read the above posts.
I'm a newbee here, but not one in personality types.

My mother is INTP and dad is ENFJ.

THE GOOD POINTS-
1. INTP always knows whats going in ENFJ's mind
ENFJ always knows whats going in INTP's heart.

So, they make a balance.
THAT is the biggest positive thing between them.

Negetive thing- It is hard for the ENFJ to understand INTPs logic. and IT is almost impossible for an INTP to deal with an angry ENFJ. ENFJs tend to believe that they have a good logic. BUt, man! You screw at that...so let the INTP take the IMPORTANT decisions. let it be financial, romantic or whatsoever.

 

[LUBUS]

I think it does, because in the case of ENFJs it's Ni, rather than Ne in ESFJs, not to mention it's a little bit stronger. Ni paired with Fe is a pretty outstanding combo for an INTP to deal with (see also INFJs). It tends to let them 'read' INTPs, without having to 'talk it out' so much (though they do need to talk about their own emotional stuff), but it goes a long way towards giving an INTP some of that much needed space, when they can just short-cut all the long 'talk about your feelings' stuff that can get a little draining and repetitive with ESFJs, warm and earnest as they might be. Also I've found that Ni users tend to appreciate Ne user's creativity, whereas two Ne users will almost compete for it if they're working together on something.

That explains why they seem much less intrusive while maintaining their caring selves. I think I will find myself one. Not sure where, though.

 

[LUBUS]

I'm quite in a hurry, so I did not read the above posts.
I'm a newbee here, but not one in personality types.

My mother is INTP and dad is ENFJ.

THE GOOD POINTS-
1. INTP always knows whats going in ENFJ's mind
ENFJ always knows whats going in INTP's heart.

So, they make a balance.
THAT is the biggest positive thing between them.

Negetive thing- It is hard for the ENFJ to understand INTPs logic. and IT is almost impossible for an INTP to deal with an angry ENFJ. ENFJs tend to believe that they have a good logic. BUt, man! You screw at that...so let the INTP take the IMPORTANT decisions. let it be financial, romantic or whatsoever.

Hm...what a slap in the face. And what less important decisions should the ENFJ take on a regular basis?

 

[anticlimatic]

That explains why they seem much less intrusive while maintaining their caring selves. I think I will find myself one. Not sure where, though.

Look through the nurses and teachers, it's a good place to start.

 

[baccheion]

Sign up on OkCupid, answer 300+ questions, then search (on the match results page) for ENFJ. Also search for INFJ, as I think they are generally a much better match for INTPs. But whatever. Look through the results to see what the high matches are like (enemy % should be less than 15%), and what the low matches are like. Enjoy the insight. Also, just to make it clear to yourself, you can search for all the personality types, then average the score of the top 10 matches for each together, and get a ranking of which personality type you match best with on average. Kinda worthless, but it's cool to know. I got (through automated means that averaged the top 100):

ENFP
INFJ
INFP
ENFJ
ISTP
INTP
INTJ
ENTP
ENTJ
ESFJ
ISFJ
ESTJ
ISTJ
ISFP
ESFP
ESTP

And yea, ENFJs gravitate toward teacher roles.

 

[kemp]

hello i am indian staying in bangalore.Two years back,i discovered myself as being an intp personality,after that life has really changed to me.I am really able to lead a fulfilling life.I am 21 year old,personally i know a estj.I have not yet met any of the enfj females in my life,i would really love to.

Can you please able to clearly say what characteristics are unique to enfj by considering all the human elements inplace?

 

[rogue350]

It is just a horrible idea. I was in a polygamous relationship with an INTP and an ENFJ. It was a nightmare. I always felt like the third wheel. The other two were in love. I just felt used and abandoned.

Jk jk I feel like I can never participate in NJ threads so I decided to make up this tragic love story about an ENTP, INTP and ENFJ.

 

[garbage]

Negetive thing- It is hard for the ENFJ to understand INTPs logic. and IT is almost impossible for an INTP to deal with an angry ENFJ. ENFJs tend to believe that they have a good logic. BUt, man! You screw at that...so let the INTP take the IMPORTANT decisions. let it be financial, romantic or whatsoever.

Stereotypically -- if important decisions were left to the Ps, none of them would ever get made.

 

[cafe]

Stereotypically -- if important decisions were left to the Ps, none of them would ever get made.

It's like sitting on the railroad tracks, watching the train headed right for you while they try to make *the perfect* decision. Makes me want to hyperventilate just thinking about it.

 

[garbage]

It's like sitting on the railroad tracks, watching the train headed right for you while they try to make *the perfect* decision.

Either that, or they'll simply lose the bills and checkbook in one of the several piles of landfill strewn about the house

 

[skylights]

It's like sitting on the railroad tracks, watching the train headed right for you while they try to make *the perfect* decision. Makes me want to hyperventilate just thinking about it.

Hah, that's my INTP dad. His car is falling apart in the garage while he tries to decide whether he should try to repair it or consider getting a new car (much less consider what type of new car...)...

(Though, when I say "falling apart" - it's a beautiful, immaculate, expensive car. He's driven it regularly for 10 years with barely a ding. It just... luxury sports cars are a bit finicky and it's been one part malfunctioning after another... my ISTP brother and I are trying to convince him that it has long been time to let go...)

 

[Showbread]

It's like sitting on the railroad tracks, watching the train headed right for you while they try to make *the perfect* decision. Makes me want to hyperventilate just thinking about it.

So much truth in this statement. In some instances I think the perceived apathy is actually over rumination to the point of practically giving up on finding a solution.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I like the way Fe doms flirt. My guard drops automatically.

 

[Anna Jorovic]

Some things took some getting used to. He does not get jealous. He will not argue with me. He does not want to be involved with the handling of the money. He mostly doesn't care what I do as long as it does not inconvenience him. He doesn't care if the house is trashed as long as there is a path to the important stuff (bed, bathroom, fridge, computer). He likes good food, but could live happily on frozen pizza. He will sit in the dark for months before bothering to change a light bulb. He does not have any interest in outdoorsy stuff.

With all these positive traits, it's amazing we INTPs aren't sought out by ALL the other types as first choice for relationships. What's not to like?

 

[Anna Jorovic]

It is just a horrible idea. I was in a polygamous relationship with an INTP and an ENFJ. It was a nightmare. I always felt like the third wheel. The other two were in love. I just felt used and abandoned.

Jk jk I feel like I can never participate in NJ threads so I decided to make up this tragic love story about an ENTP, INTP and ENFJ.

Haha

 

[cafe]

With all these positive traits, it's amazing we INTPs aren't sought out by ALL the other types as first choice for relationships. What's not to like?

Highly underrated, IMO. Not that I'd mind a camping buddy, but I usually only camp a day or two a year and then just at the county park.

But I think so much of that stuff is so at odds with how our culture represents relationships and gender roles, that you have to be able to detach from those a bit and also it helps to be fairly self-contained. You gain a lot of autonomy, but if you can't work out some kind of routine or system, it can be easy to drift apart or feel isolated. I prefer it to having someone constantly up my rear or being domineering or demanding but not everyone does.