Integrating the Inferior

[Anew Leaf]

I don't know. I only know I can identify with what you said. I'm old and typing is a mess for me. INTP? Maybe.

I'm not sure if I can explain it well. It wasn't until recently that I realized how much of what I did was fueled by certain beliefs (a kindly INFP pointed this out to me) or internal rules that I have gathered over the years. Family deaths, divorce, and being at odds with others brought out a lot of...aggressiveness in me. It put me in a positions where instead of cruising, I've had to fight for what I believe in.

(I know [MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] is going to see this!)

I don't know if this is making any sense! I shouldn't be on here when I'm trying to study blood dyscrasias.

!!!! D:!!

There's a reason why the redneck Te motto is "Git R Done"!

@ the bolded, that's because Te-doms use their Te that way. IME, skillful Te use requires goals, or else the function can't really be used constructively. That's how I can tell angry NFPs from angry STJs; the STJs are usually ranting with a goal in mind, or ranting about a goal, whereas the NFPs seem to just be trying to vent it and get it out of their system.

So I guess integrated use of inferior Te would mean taking deep breaths when you're upset and Making A Plan. (Hence my Visitor Message about "well-aimed volcanoes". )

^That's how I feel about Fi. Probably an inferior function thing.

Aw, shucks! Thanks, friend!

@bold, that probably explains why Te feels so clunky for me when I am trying to use it for things other than its intended purpose. I find it easiest to use when I am trying to break things down into smaller steps and figure out how best to do something. Even my INTP dad has given me compliments on my ability to create systems efficiently... I just never thought of that as Te because I had erroneous ideas on what Te actually is.

I sort of have this irritating drive to not influence or modify things or people because I want life to happen to me in some magical serendipitous kind of way. And then I wonder, and complain, about how I never meet any "goals" I want...

*goes out to harness her Te pony*

 

[Evo]

I've been focusing on working with some of my issues with inferior Fi as of late. I am curious how others have gone about integrating their inferior function, and what degree of success they might have had. A couple of questions:

How does your inferior function manifest itself? What personal issues do you relate to it, and what have you done to better integrate your use and expression of this function? How successful have you been?

Tangent, This is actually how I stumbled upon TypeC. I was trying to improve my inferior about a year ago. I was so surprised and happy to find others talking about this stuff I had to join.



my inferior manifests:
-frequently now more than ever. Te's sheild is dying a quick and painful death.
-From critizism when not specifically asked for. I will tell you when to tell me where I need to improve...You don't. It needs to be planned by me...I need to be the one to say "What can I work on" first. If that does not happen...go fuck yourself.
-Relating to the previous point. Any idea that I have or hold on to, and you comment on, I take personally. Even if the comment is encouraged or not. Total shut down, and sometimes grudge held.
-Relating to the previous point as well. I am forgiving people less and less literally every day. The opposite used to be my motto...because I really DID forgive...cause I forgot. lol (This is probably the most revolting manifestation of Fi. I hate myself for not forgiving. But I cannot anymore)
-I'm so emo
-And of course bottling up emotions only for them to come out with immense force either exploding or imploding


There's probably more. But those are the only ones I can think of. And the last one covers almost anything in the big picture.

Some of the things I have to constantly remind myself of is: that it's the process of getting shit done and enjoying life while doing it...NOT the end result. Goals don't mean shit if you die trying...YOU DIED...lol although I think it's Te motto to "die trying". Also I have to remind myself it's better to have someone kind around compared to just intellegent. And that people are just doing the best they can...just cause I can't see there immediate strengths doesn't mean they're assholes.


What have i done:

Ironically, I have bettered myself by taking your advice Wind-Up Rex "connecting with people who use Fi better than you do, explaining your problem, and asking for help." One of the first threads I ever made was about how I'm surrounded by FP's (in specific ISFP's). The ironic part about this is that I get aggrevated being around so many all the time, and turns out I need them (It amazes me what the universe has brought to me, and I didn't even appreciate it) Thank you btw The other night I went right to one of them and just started asking him questions. And it not only helped me but helped our relationship.

As for this " Learning to meditate. Having an introspective practice like meditation helps you to figure out what's going on with yourself (Fi), and strengthen your connection to your inner guidance (Ni)." I am still pretty bad at it. But trying. I just ignore any inkling that is not Te or Se still.

Successulness: I'm bad at introspection. It's really hard for me. It's hard for me to walk away when I'm upset, cause I don't introspect enough to know that I'm upset. But it's a working progress I guess. I'm learning everyday how I can concretely apply things to my life and catch myself.

The hard outside is rational, but the soft inside is as irrational as you can get. In a way, I feel that Fi is the foundation for everything I do, and Te is its guardian, the soldier assigned to protect it.

Yes, as related to the above point, Te only has a sheild for so long.

It's funny that I've thought about these things in the past in almost these exact terms, especially the bolded. You also really neatly captured the more compartmentalized mindset that I'm ready to move forward from. I'm aiming for a convergence of what had up until now been "private" and "public" selves, and in doing so truly honor who I am and what I'm about.

You bring up an interesting point, though, about the veil of objectivity that Te likes to cast. But I have no doubts that the Te and Fi "halves" of myself are equally valid in their respective viewpoints. In fact, as I was saying to Ginkgo in a VM my desire to integrate the Fi half is because it seems so much freer, and lives in a world that's so much richer than that which my Te-guided self will allow for. I just want the meaning and possibility and fullness that this sorta inner reconciliation seems to have the potential to create.

I couldn't say that any better.

The less a TJ realizes there’s some irrational core attaching them to ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ (or ‘correct’ and ‘incorrect’?), the more they’ll be senselessly and impulsively ‘offended’ by anyone else having a different point of view? [Again- this is just what it looks like to me as an observer of it.]

My point being, the inferior function is there whether it gets ‘developed’ or not- but making oneself aware of how it informs our judgment opens up possibilities that we wouldn’t otherwise investigate because we’d just impulsively assume the initial impression is correct.

I think I have seen INFJ's do that. I didn't know that that was their inferior manifested. Interesting.


The bolded is true. And a very good way to word how we can take the next step to making ourselves more aware.

But, a thought...

*If* a dominant perceiver's method really is to conceptualize the impact of the inferior, perhaps the dominant thinker's is to stipulate an impact. In the terms of extroverted thinking the stipulation might sound something like, "Yo, so it turns out people make decisions for all sorts of reasons, and some of them subjective, but whether logical or felt, these decisions are part of the environment now!" It'd make sense then as an extroverted thinker to start an investigation. Maybe squeeze some feelers and see what comes out. The idea then is not to mimic them. The stipulation about decisions in the environment applies to your own decisions too. So, adding together what you've seen others do (and asked questions about to learn "the truth") and comparing it with what you know of your own states and events, you might start seeing where you differ and where you're the same, and maybe invent your own metric. Voila, conscious Fi.

I don't know if this actually works. In theory it's a process of identifying your Fi by identifying your place in the environment under the stipulation that some parts of the environment are generated from inside individuals. Sounds a bit self help-y, I guess. Still, it's potentially less disgusting than just having feelings.

woah man...deep. Great way to word it. Like the comparing thing might actually be able to wake Te up to things...almost like looking at it objectively or something...I might be lost now...am I making sense of what you said? You're getting into my unconcious and I'm starting to wig out lol.

 

[violet_crown]

*ahem*

The decision to work on these things reeks--REEKS!--of Fi. I don't know why this should be true, or even if it truly is, and I don't know how to pinpoint the F elements either. But, a thought...

I'm doing it right! Hurray!!!!

*If* a dominant perceiver's method really is to conceptualize the impact of the inferior, perhaps the dominant thinker's is to stipulate an impact.

Yes.

In the terms of extroverted thinking the stipulation might sound something like, "Yo, so it turns out people make decisions for all sorts of reasons, and some of them subjective, but whether logical or felt, these decisions are part of the environment now!" It'd make sense then as an extroverted thinker to start an investigation. Maybe squeeze some feelers and see what comes out. The idea then is not to mimic them. The stipulation about decisions in the environment applies to your own decisions too. So, adding together what you've seen others do (and asked questions about to learn "the truth") and comparing it with what you know of your own states and events, you might start seeing where you differ and where you're the same, and maybe invent your own metric. Voila, conscious Fi.

This blew my mind a little when I first read it a couple of days ago, so I thought I'd let it breathe for a minute before I responded to your post.

The way you've explained it here gave me my first really visceral understanding of how fundamentally different the orientation of the inferior is. I guess I'd been playing just the tip with this thing, and now I feel like I'm back at square one lol.

There was a lot that was said here that was important, but the bolded was in particular. I think until now I'd sought information from more adept Fi users and only grasped the effects rather than understanding the underlying logic...

Wait. Oh god. I was Te-ing my way to Fi.

Excuse me, Mr. Kettle, while I go roll around in this big puddle of irony over here.

 

[King sns]

My inferior is possibly Si, but I have such a super huge focus on it. I often think it's my tertiary. I have been making lame attempts to create some kind of a structure in my life to help me get some kind of control of all the little things for years now.... and, I still have no advice for you. I think Si should be an easy one for me as all I have to do is take details of my life (bills, appointments, school, phone calls, even something as simple as getting the mail) and incorporate them into my schedule somehow so that I can have some set repetitive structure to prevent dumb life f-ups. I always have the plan but never the follow through. So I try to come up with all these creative ways to get around the barriers and call me lazy and forgetful but I just can't do it leading to many embarrassing repeated inefficiency problems and mistakes. Yeah, I know you guys are like. "we got our own problems lady." (Also, I know Si is not about paying the bills and stuff, however I think if I could use it for those kinds of things it would be satisfactory enough for me.)

:sigh:

I imagine it's a little more abstract for someone with say, an Fi inferior because then you're asking them to define their value system and apply it to everything.

(Insert final thought provoking global statement here.)

[MENTION=9627]Chawie[/MENTION], do you have anything to add?

 

[Isis]

I've only read a few of the postings- but I feel like I'm reading a description of my ENTJ friend grappling with his Fi. When he is in touch with it- omg- the most tender and sweet thing I've ever seen. But most of the time- not in touch with it. Seems it feels awkward to him to "feel." Even claims he does not feel- just mimics reactions to things as appropriate for the situation. So I can't figure you guys out! (I'm Ne dom, Fi auxiliary. Definitely a "feeler.")

My inferior is Si. It is not well developed I don't believe. I really function in Ne/Fi or Fi/Te mode. Si .... I dunno. I feel like it creeps up on occasion when a memory is sparked that will tug at my Fi or when a memory is sparked that will challenge my Te (but not very often.) I guess I don't feel the need to develop it. Not saying people shouldn't develop their inferior functions- but I feel like I don't need it per se because I'm content with how I perceive the world and interact with it. But I can understand if Fi is your inferior- this can be an issue when trying to get close to people. Just my take on it.

 

[violet_crown]

I've really appreciated everyones' responses so far.

[MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] commented to me that there should be some sort of inferior function mentorship program/buddy system wherein you learn the ways of your inferior from someone who has it as a dominant, and optimally vice versa. I thought it was a neat idea, and one with potentially a great deal of benefit.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I've really appreciated everyones' responses so far.

[MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] commented to me that there should be some sort of inferior function mentorship program/buddy system wherein you learn the ways of your inferior from someone who has it as a dominant, and optimally vice versa. I thought it was a neat idea, and one with potentially a great deal of benefit.

I am available for both Ne and Fi chats if anyone wants to take me up on this!

 

[Amargith]

Inferio si= extreme yet vague anxiety *all the time*

It drives you mental, eats energy, wrecks your confidence and is slippery as fuck
Since it is so vague it seems impossible to remedy as the cause can be anything and looking for it is a needle in a haystack. Obsessively double checking things and keeping track is exhausting, impossible to keep up and ultimately futile as it only fuels the paranoia

Needless to say that integration has been unsuccesful so far

 

[cascadeco]

All right, I'll try to play along with strict mbti theory.

I'm...not sure.

I think because I don't view Se in a negative light. If anything I see a lot of good out of it and think it [or, think activities/pasttimes/mentalities I ascribe to it, right or wrong] has a lot of positives and adds necessary balance, perspective, and sanity to myself/my life. Perhaps it's a different experience to have an extroverted perceiving function as your inferior? For me I feel more liberated with it than restricted/stifled. And, to tie into Ni discussions, Se seems to be a pretty essential component of self/ideas/how Ni works, so maybe I should just scrap the 'conscious' reference of it altogether, lol.

But consciously, the closest I can come with viewing it in a more negative light would be the push/pull tendency.... finding that balance between IxxJ desire for closure, definition, deliberation, etc. vs. integrating the more spontaneous, undefined, and raw/'now'/observational element of Se. It's a tougher balance to maintain but I always try to integrate the 'letting go'/'embrace the moment' element of Se into my life. So balance challenge is because I don't think any extreme is the way to go; so I don't really ever see value in being fully in the moment (permanently/as a lifestyle) or fully not-in-the-moment (permanently).

I probably would have answered this differently 10 or 15 years ago, though. (not trying to say I'm totally awesome/integrated, I'm just explaining where I'm at and that I don't really view Se as negative or debilitating. I guess, though, that earlier on in life, I *could*/would have said that the 'letting go' thing was much harder / very uncomfortable for me, so there's that)

 

[Z Buck McFate]

For example, with NFJs I’ve known- I’ve seen a tendency to jump to conclusions about the meaning of another person’s actions or words. Stories (explanations of ‘why) sort of instantly unzip in our heads for why other people do or say what they say or do- and it takes conscious effort to realize we aren’t actually seeing why *they* said or did it….we’re seeing why *we* would say or do it (iow: what it would mean if we said or did it ourselves). The benefit of pulling Ti ‘out of the shadows’ for NFJs is we can be aware that the way we make sense of the world isn’t necessarily because what we’re gleaming is the irrefutable truth about other people so much as it’s the truth about what it would mean if we were the ones saying or doing it. The less in touch an FJ is with the extent to which the way Ti ‘makes sense’ of others’ behavior according to our own limited experience of the world, the more we impulsively believe the first story (or ‘apparent causation’) that pops into our head is ‘clearly’ the truth.

I think I have seen INFJ's do that. I didn't know that that was their inferior manifested. Interesting.

Theoretically it's supposed to be more an ENFJ thing, and I'm inclined to think the INFJs who get that way lean in that direction (towards being on the cusp of E) because Ni makes it difficult to cling so confidently to a first impression. And I suspect that people who identify as INTJs and who have the Te version going on (unconscious Fi) lean towards ENTJ. Dunno. I mean I wrote “NFJ” and “NTJ” in my original post because something similar seems to surface in IxxJs too, but I can’t help but think when people complain about INFJs being this way- they’re actually dealing with something closer to an especially introverted ENFJ. I think that the more ‘I’ someone falls on the spectrum (as opposed to ‘E’), the less likely they are to mistake their own judgment for the almighty truth, and they just withdraw and get distrustful and reluctant and squirrelly instead (kind of like: “I don’t know what the truth is, but I know it isn’t what you’re telling me it is”).

I’m really not sure what influence ‘inferior Se’ has exactly, I don’t have much of a handle on that.


eta: I'm using "NTJ" and "NFJ" instead of just "TJ" and "FJ" only because when breaking it down further to describe the introverted counterparts, I'm kinda at a loss about ISJs. But I suspect 'inferior Fi' and 'inferior Ti' are similar regardless of S or N.

 

[Evo]

I've really appreciated everyones' responses so far.

[MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] commented to me that there should be some sort of inferior function mentorship program/buddy system wherein you learn the ways of your inferior from someone who has it as a dominant, and optimally vice versa. I thought it was a neat idea, and one with potentially a great deal of benefit.

Yea I think this IS really great! Also I think there's these guys that run intuitvetime.com that say that too. Although that site is not up yet, their youtube videos are...and I find them awesome.

All right, I'll try to play along with strict mbti theory.

I'm...not sure.

I think because I don't view Se in a negative light. If anything I see a lot of good out of it and think it [or, think activities/pasttimes/mentalities I ascribe to it, right or wrong] has a lot of positives and adds necessary balance, perspective, and sanity to myself/my life. Perhaps it's a different experience to have an extroverted perceiving function as your inferior? For me I feel more liberated with it than restricted/stifled. And, to tie into Ni discussions, Se seems to be a pretty essential component of self/ideas/how Ni works, so maybe I should just scrap the 'conscious' reference of it altogether, lol.

But consciously, the closest I can come with viewing it in a more negative light would be the push/pull tendency.... finding that balance between IxxJ desire for closure, definition, deliberation, etc. vs. integrating the more spontaneous, undefined, and raw/'now'/observational element of Se. It's a tougher balance to maintain but I always try to integrate the 'letting go'/'embrace the moment' element of Se into my life. So balance challenge is because I don't think any extreme is the way to go; so I don't really ever see value in being fully in the moment (permanently/as a lifestyle) or fully not-in-the-moment (permanently).

I probably would have answered this differently 10 or 15 years ago, though. (not trying to say I'm totally awesome/integrated, I'm just explaining where I'm at and that I don't really view Se as negative or debilitating. I guess, though, that earlier on in life, I *could*/would have said that the 'letting go' thing was much harder / very uncomfortable for me, so there's that)

I have noticed this too. My friend is an ISFJ and he's pretty mature. I think that with a perception function that's extraverted like Se or Ne...it's not as scary/negative as others. Having Ni and Si last in order sounds scary...but of course with maturity everything becomes easier.

Theoretically it's supposed to be more an ENFJ thing, and I'm inclined to think the INFJs who get that way lean in that direction (towards being on the cusp of E) because Ni makes it difficult to cling so confidently to a first impression. And I suspect that people who identify as INTJs and who have the Te version going on (unconscious Fi) lean towards ENTJ. Dunno. I mean I wrote “NFJ” and “NTJ” in my original post because something similar seems to surface in IxxJs too, but I can’t help but think when people complain about INFJs being this way- they’re actually dealing with something closer to an especially introverted ENFJ. I think that the more ‘I’ someone falls on the spectrum (as opposed to ‘E’), the less likely they are to mistake their own judgment for the almighty truth, and they just withdraw and get distrustful and reluctant and squirrelly instead (kind of like: “I don’t know what the truth is, but I know it isn’t what you’re telling me it is”).

I’m really not sure what influence ‘inferior Se’ has exactly, I don’t have much of a handle on that.


eta: I'm use "NTJ" and "NFJ" instead of just "TJ" and "FJ" only because when breaking it down further to describe the introverted counterparts, I'm kinda at a loss about ISJs. But I suspect 'inferior Fi' and 'inferior Ti' are similar regardless of S or N.

I actually was only thinking of this one really unhealthy INFJ that I know. I don't really see that in most INFJ's...I love infjs because of that actually lol.That's why I was surprised that you said that. I have not even seen that in some unhealthy ENFJ's though...I think it was just that one girl...

So Yes I see what you mean now.

 

[Kalach]

This blew my mind a little when I first read it a couple of days ago, so I thought I'd let it breathe for a minute before I responded to your post.

The way you've explained it here gave me my first really visceral understanding of how fundamentally different the orientation of the inferior is. I guess I'd been playing just the tip with this thing, and now I feel like I'm back at square one lol.

There was a lot that was said here that was important, but the bolded was in particular. I think until now I'd sought information from more adept Fi users and only grasped the effects rather than understanding the underlying logic...

Wait. Oh god. I was Te-ing my way to Fi.

Excuse me, Mr. Kettle, while I go roll around in this big puddle of irony over here.

Hmmm. Now I see what happens when people are confronted with my kind of posting. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOURE SAYING, Wind-Ni Rex! That Te-ing your way to Fi is... a bad thing?

I postulate it is suitable, even necessary, to Te a path to Fi, but it works more or less by mapping everything that isn't (your) Fi. Why that can work as a tool for discovery of your own Fi is when you map everything that isn't your Fi, you'll end up seeing anomalies, like when person X burst into tears or person Y mysteriously invoked Rosebud on their deathbed. Why did they do this? You don't know. You might be able to draw lies back through their histories if you had the time and a suitably intrusive sense of purpose, but what you'll end up with is a discovery that there's a space inside people where... something... happens. If you know what that space isn't for yourself, you can set to clearing away all those parts that aren't it and spend a little time with whatever is left.

So, I guess it's not really Te-ing Fi. It's more like becoming appropriately conscious of what Te is so that then you can ride up to the boundary and know it to be the boundary. And then step through to the other side.

:horor:


I may be making things up.

Still, I *think* it's how I recognise and go about trying more Se. There's something I can do that isn't judging, and isn't conceiving, but is perceiving... must be Se... and now that i know what it is, what do I want to do next.... do I want to do anything next? That sort of thing. Maybe

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

[MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION]

I fully submerged myself. I fell and I made myself stay there... Don't do that.

Just realize you aren't actually integrating it into your psyche. You are just realizing and understanding that a deeper force may be guiding your ego. Your ego is never acting alone. You never want efficiency without feeling like what you are choosing to focus on is the most important. Instead of thinking that may be Ni, step back and see if it is Fi.

It is always there, it is always watching.

 

[the state i am in]

re: Teing your way to Fi.

well, what holds the different functions together into a coherent, unified awareness? and do we have control over that? and is that our attention, and do we have control over our attention, or is that just another layer of attention? and what constitutes that?

i don't know how to answer this, just that the idea is that you relate the functions to each other rather than controlling them from some absolute point. in terms of the moment of awareness within you, you are the focus, the experiential field, and you are the circulations that perceive how to predict what aspects of that experiential field means according to various pathways that get tripped based on the history of our culturally embodied guess systems. you are both p and j, respectively, one just holds on to more resources than they other, just gets more of the spotlight of attention (gets to send more informational depth, more sophisticated communication, to the higher ups). you are habituated to identify with aspects of the huge distributed process of cognition and to ignore others. your attention is principally what mediates this for you, selecting the most relevant information for your frontal cortex/adult intelligence.

more usefully, i think trusting the massive overcoding of the mind-body system and just picking a point to work on is tremendously useful. i can work on Se, i can work on presence, i can work on e7 (and c2) appreciation of experience to make it more positive and improve my mood/momentum to then promote greater belief/motivation for action (e8 and c3), i can work on chakra 1, 2, and 3, i can work on visualization practices from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person perspectives to improve my spatial awareness/truly grasp where things are coming from/subjective relativity, i can work on my sense of story telling to improve how i define the current situation and organize diachronic/linear time, i can work on bodily practices to ground me and counteract too much head energy, i can work on emotional practices to link my head center and body centers and work on the fair, compassionate negotiation of healthy boundaries not just relational to others but for myself, parameters and rules of designed to help focus my acceptance system, i can work on rituals/practices to organize myself in time to counteract the overly circular Ni system that might as well be a time travel machine because its temporal coherency is never defined by the consistently threaded changes from the environment.

as for how i do this, i think yoga is by far the most important practice for me. unsurprisingly, i especially like entp 7w8 sx/so teachers. their ability to link mind and body, metaphysics and physics, weaves me back together. other teachers are better at focusing on the heart center, which is more of a release that then promotes grounding thru a kind of healing rather than grounding itself.

 

[FemMecha]

My Se can feel grounding when I use it, and I had a strong inclination towards ballet or gymnastics when young, but didn't have the opportunity to develop it -especially the ballet. I can end up being unusually flexible with the concrete world because I don't think I have much of it internalized. I have a hard time knowing what I want to eat, watch, favorite music, etc. I don't feel much control over the concrete world, and so I can feel panicked if cut off from a temporal need (although this could have other causes). I can be in the moment when eating the best food or other hedonistic endeavors, but can't always identify preferences ahead of time. I have an unusually hard time verbalizing preferences about my senses.

 

[Evo]

re: Teing your way to Fi.

well, what holds the different functions together into a coherent, unified awareness? and do we have control over that? and is that our attention, and do we have control over our attention, or is that just another layer of attention? and what constitutes that?

i don't know how to answer this, just that the idea is that you relate the functions to each other rather than controlling them from some absolute point. in terms of the moment of awareness within you, you are the focus, the experiential field, and you are the circulations that perceive how to predict what aspects of that experiential field means according to various pathways that get tripped based on the history of our culturally embodied guess systems. you are both p and j, respectively, one just holds on to more resources than they other, just gets more of the spotlight of attention (gets to send more informational depth, more sophisticated communication, to the higher ups). you are habituated to identify with aspects of the huge distributed process of cognition and to ignore others. your attention is principally what mediates this for you, selecting the most relevant information for your frontal cortex/adult intelligence.

more usefully, i think trusting the massive overcoding of the mind-body system and just picking a point to work on is tremendously useful. i can work on Se, i can work on presence, i can work on e7 (and c2) appreciation of experience to make it more positive and improve my mood/momentum to then promote greater belief/motivation for action (e8 and c3), i can work on chakra 1, 2, and 3, i can work on visualization practices from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person perspectives to improve my spatial awareness/truly grasp where things are coming from/subjective relativity, i can work on my sense of story telling to improve how i define the current situation and organize diachronic/linear time, i can work on bodily practices to ground me and counteract too much head energy, i can work on emotional practices to link my head center and body centers and work on the fair, compassionate negotiation of healthy boundaries not just relational to others but for myself, parameters and rules of designed to help focus my acceptance system, i can work on rituals/practices to organize myself in time to counteract the overly circular Ni system that might as well be a time travel machine because its temporal coherency is never defined by the consistently threaded changes from the environment.

as for how i do this, i think yoga is by far the most important practice for me. unsurprisingly, i especially like entp 7w8 sx/so teachers. their ability to link mind and body, metaphysics and physics, weaves me back together. other teachers are better at focusing on the heart center, which is more of a release that then promotes grounding thru a kind of healing rather than grounding itself.

This is interesting. I like what you have to say.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I actually was only thinking of this one really unhealthy INFJ that I know. I don't really see that in most INFJ's...I love infjs because of that actually lol.That's why I was surprised that you said that. I have not even seen that in some unhealthy ENFJ's though...I think it was just that one girl...

So Yes I see what you mean now.

Honestly, I’m probably coming across as saying all this more confidently than I intend when it’s more like I’m thinking aloud. And I don’t completely remember what was going through my mind in making that second post ( ). I think for some reason I was thinking about the times I’ve dealt with it in others and it seemed particularly strong or where someone is particularly reactive about it; in such cases I tend to think they lean towards ENFJ because there’s a certain degree of being comfortable with imposing their immediate judgment on those in the external world around them. I tend to think this about NTJs too- when someone demonstrates an ease with their own reactivity and the imposition it puts on others, I lean towards suspecting they’re actually more E than I. But it’s entirely possible I’m off about this. I’ve known ENFJs who are nothing like this too- they’re perfectly rational and don’t leap to conclusions, and I think this is the case more often than not. Anyway, yeah, I think in INFJs it’s more like a horrible uncertainty- picking up on cues that another person’s actions or words mean *something bad* but having no idea if it’s founded or not. At least that’s what it seems like to me: that ‘inferior Se’ creates generalized anxiety about the external world.

as for how i do this, i think yoga is by far the most important practice for me. unsurprisingly, i especially like entp 7w8 sx/so teachers. their ability to link mind and body, metaphysics and physics, weaves me back together. other teachers are better at focusing on the heart center, which is more of a release that then promotes grounding thru a kind of healing rather than grounding itself.

Yoga is, by far and wide, the most effective way I’ve found of getting rid of the generalized anxiety. It’s very grounding and I don’t worry about possibilities as much when I’m yoga-ing regularly.

 

[Salomé]

When a person makes an effort to be aware/conscious of this process (conceptualizing its impact), then they can be aware of why they believe what they believe, and it becomes easier to recognize when we are wrong. eta: it seems more fitting to me to say 'develop awareness of' (or 'integrate conscious awareness of') than to say 'develop' or 'integrate'.

Absolutely, this.
There is a lot of psychic energy involved in repressing the inferior function and a good deal of ego investment in keeping it from consciousness. The inferior will not be called out of the shadows without a battle. If it's easy for you, you're probably doing it wrong/not really doing what you think you're doing at all.
Developing an awareness of/ recognising the patterns of inferior function expression allow you to slip out from under its grip (and associated delusions.)

For example, with NFJs I’ve known- I’ve seen a tendency to jump to conclusions about the meaning of another person’s actions or words. Stories (explanations of ‘why) sort of instantly unzip in our heads for why other people do or say what they say or do- and it takes conscious effort to realize we aren’t actually seeing why *they* said or did it….we’re seeing why *we* would say or do it (iow: what it would mean if we said or did it ourselves).

Truth.

My point being, the inferior function is there whether it gets ‘developed’ or not- but making oneself aware of how it informs our judgment opens up possibilities that we wouldn’t otherwise investigate because we’d just impulsively assume the initial impression is correct.

Yes, and the INTP has the opposite problem. Sometimes it feels like drowning in a sea of relativity with no life raft of certainty to cling to.

[MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] commented to me that there should be some sort of inferior function mentorship program/buddy system wherein you learn the ways of your inferior from someone who has it as a dominant, and optimally vice versa. I thought it was a neat idea, and one with potentially a great deal of benefit.

It's frequently called marriage. Symbiotic union with someone whose strengths are your weaknesses is probably the commonest (and least helpful) way of dealing (read not dealing) with the deficiency.

I think because I don't view Se in a negative light. If anything I see a lot of good out of it and think it [or, think activities/pasttimes/mentalities I ascribe to it, right or wrong] has a lot of positives and adds necessary balance, perspective, and sanity to myself/my life. Perhaps it's a different experience to have an extroverted perceiving function as your inferior?

You dont see it in a negative light because you have integrated it. Not coincidentally, you are also not one of those NFJs Z Buck talks about - who jump to incorrect assumptions about others.

I have stopped seeing Fe in a negative light too, but that doesn't mean I actively "use" it. It simply means I own my own inferior expression of it, instead of projecting it onto others and disparaging them for it. (Although, under stress, this will still be a pattern for me).

I have seen INTPs fall into the trap of simulating Fe. Of using Ti to puzzle out the logic behind social mores and behave in ways that mirror their background. The so-called "chameleon" effect. This tends to lead to stunted development and a deeply cynical / shallow personality. It is not "developed" Fe, it is a defense against it. Of course, like all defenses they are seldom aware of it.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Yes, and the INTP has the opposite problem. Sometimes it feels like drowning in a sea of relativity with no life raft of certainty to cling to.

Actually, I think INTPs (and any type) are just as susceptible to their own version of tunnel vision- I wouldn’t say it’s an opposite problem so much as the same problem with an opposite kind of tunnel vision. That “sea of relativity with no life raft of certainty to cling to” is a sort of tunnel vision unto itself. It may be infuriating to deal with a Je’er who is having a hard time working your Ji input into their cognitive purview, especially if that Je’er is clinging to their own cognitive purview at the mercy of their own unconscious impulses …..but hot damn if it isn’t just as infuriating for us Js to deal with a Pe’er whose unconscious Pi makes them impulsively cling to every capricious whim, completely resistant to incorporate our Pi input into their cognitive purview. When a Pe’er is clinging to their own cognitive purview at the direction of their own unconscious impulses- as opposed to being aware of the influence inferior Pi has- they NEED to grab hold of those capricious whims (the less conscious Pi impulses are, the stronger that pull)…..and in Ti’ers, it takes the form of grabbing on to every single tiny immediate argument that comes to mind with no regard for the extent to which they’re only pulling up arguments that suit their immediate purpose (there’s no consistency- it’s all about arguing whatever gets them what they want in that moment).

In exaggerated cases- just like it’s obvious to other people when Je’ers are clinging to some ‘objective truth’ (which is anything but) because of some irrational core in themselves which they won’t acknowledge- it’s just as ‘obvious’ to others when Pe’ers are shape-shifting some ‘objective truth’ (which is anything but) because of some irrational core in themselves which they won’t acknowledge. The difference is that Je clings whole hog to a ‘truth’ (which is blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) which was already in place in their cognitive purview, and Pe clings whole hog to a brand new ‘truth’ (which is blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) regardless of how much it contradicts the ‘truth’ (which was blatantly influenced by an irrational subjective core) they were arguing 10 minutes ago. It all comes across as biased pigheadedness, but from different directions.

 

[EJCC]

This thread is even more interesting than it was when I left it! Kudos to all the wise and thoughtful people who have posted here.

Based on what [MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION] said, I'm wondering if the inferior function just bothers T-doms a lot more than it bothers other people.

Relevant quote:

From a Thinking point of view, the eruption of "illogical," uncontrolled, and disorderly feelings is like being at the mercy of strange and overwhelming forces that threaten a person's equilibrium, if not his or her whole existence... In extreme instances, they may be terrified that they are going crazy.

I haven't heard of any other types having that extreme a relationship with their inferior function -- which isn't to say that I won't be easily convinced to the contrary, but the dynamic on this thread suggests that my hypothesis is correct, in addition to [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]'s posts about Te-dominance being what led to the creation of this thread in the first place.