[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[PeaceBaby]

Yes, you got the stories, and Peacebaby alluded long ago as to her admiring the 'strategy' you employed, but the 'strategy' is precisely what I find so lame.

Oh, do let me be clear though, it was 'admire' in this fashion ...

It 'worked', but at (imo) such a high price. It upset a bunch of folks I enjoy interacting with and at a time where the pot did not need any stirring. If anything, it almost caused the thread to self-destruct. Frankly, I was pretty pi**ed off.

If the net result is understanding, but understanding was reached via a process that leaves casualities left and right, then what you might end up with is Understanding, With No Desire to Interact Further. There has to be a better way of going about it. (and now this post is becoming more general)

See, that's what I think Mane is ok with - he uses you to get what he needs, so he pushes it to the extreme. As far as he dare - and he realizes he's burning bridges.

ETA: Please don't think I admire Mane in any 'adoring' sense for what he did - it was button-pushingly-annoying as heck. Some folks left then and haven't come back, and will likely choose not to interact in this fashion again, and I think that's a massive loss - what I mentioned in my reply as the 'human cost'. What I kind of admired in a wry way was his incisive ability to take it right to the very edge, he pushed right to the point someone would door-slam him (or strangle him), but not quite. And he planned it out, it was calculated, he chose a word that maximized reactions ... personally it wouldn't even occur to me to try to use an emotional reaction to advance a goal. It's dirty pool. I always go the idea route.

I don't even know what my goal is being here right now. Just to see this through I guess to the point where it feels like understanding is enhanced, from all vantage points.

This is rambly, but it was illustrative of that ENTP stereotype of reading people well and getting them to do what they want, even if they don't want to do it. I'd never seen it in action, in this way. Button-pusher extraordinaire. No offense intended personally Mane, I trust you won't take it that way.

 

[Fidelia]

I think throughout the thread it was clear that Mane was doing the same kind of stuff that Simulated World used to , in the interests of answering the questions he had. The only thing that made me a bit okay with it is recognizing that that was what it was (I didn't feel like I was "had" then), and also the fact that I identify with wanting to understand why an SO acted in a particular way so that I could answer my own questions and move on, if I can't get the answers directly.

However, it has been at the expense of asking any favours or cooperation of most of the INFJs on here in the future. It seems to me that Mane weighed the cost of that and was okay with it, as this was more pressing.

I don't think it is a great strategy for maintaining any longterm friendships or romantic relationships. I can see if I were his INFJ significant other, just getting disillusioned and one day refusing to even deal with it either irrevoccably, or at least for an extremely long period of time (I'm talking years). I don't know if there would even be anger. Just a decision that nothing in the relating style would be likely to change, becoming tired of the emotional white noise created by it and choosing to at last just disengage permanently. Discussion at that point would be futile. I suspect that the negative experience Mane has had with his INFJ has more to do with how he is interacting with her than anything else, based on what I've seen here.

I'm rather surprised that Mane is not recognizing that umlauu's statement has truth. To me, what umlauu said, and what has transpired here is totally compatible.

Also, regarding the alleged INFJs (whose feelings Mane wishes to inform us of, but not disclose their identity) who are upset at the use of "we", my feeling is that if you do not wish to engage people to set the record straight, then you also don't get to vocalize your opinion (indirectly) to them. Either you're involved, or you're not. Mane privately writing to multiple INFJs to pass this "information" along does a lot to eradicate giving the benefit of the doubt to him, as it smacks of looking for "evidence" that agree with his point of view (again, perceived as personal agenda) anywhere he can find it, while not being prepared to actually be examined and to engage discussion with the actual parties involved (he could be making up fictional INFJs, for all I know, or they could be people who already have a beef with certain others on the board etc.) There's no way to examine the validity of the truth he's uncovered. All INFJs here have been pretty clear about what they mean by the use of we, and so deliberating twisting it to become something nefarious seems like a poor way to gain goodwill.

 

[Tiltyred]

Yup. You object and object, you beg and plead, and he will have his way, and then turn straight around and try to make you think it was a good idea, you were wrong to object, and he was actually helping you. What part of "No, and go away" confuses you. INFJ ladies who are all up in the whispering, take note, because if he'll do it to anybody, he'll do it to you.

Pattern recognition's a bitch, ain't it?

 

[uumlau]

Just as an aside - do Fi users have a filtering system for whose voices they find credible and whose they don't, or are there nuggets of truth in all if people just are willing to go looking for them? I'm confused about this.

I'm not a dom or aux Fi user, and being dom Ni necessarily pollutes my perceptions with Ni-based reasoning, but I think I might have a partial answer, here.

Just so that the Ni-aspects of my reasoning are clear, Ni filters by abstract synthesis, taking in everything that is said, finding some things that are clearly true, some things that are partially true, and some things that are untrue, and then rebuilding the pieces of truth and partial truth (and using untruth as a useful "anti-pattern" guideline) into a coherent overall picture that is (hopefully) mostly true and perhaps serves as a guideline for opening others to different perspectives. Most of my posts in this thread are examples of my doing this.

The Fi side I don't think really synthesizes in that Ni manner, but there is an overall tone or smell (or any analogous sense that cannot be easily stated in definitive bytes of information) that indicates how much things are harmonious with other things that are said by the same person. So it isn't, for example, merely listening for an agenda, as [MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION] says she does, and eliminating from consideration those who have an agenda. Instead, note how [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]'s reply mentions that there is a lot of truth she is finding in what Mane says, even as she simultaneously notes other agendas and other patterns.

As to Fi's resolution, PB's reply notes a lot more truth in Mane's comments than I do. My Ni, I think, filters things more, while PB's Fi appears to be more inclusive. As Ni dom, I regard Mane's overall opinion/approach as seriously flawed (which PB also notes), but because I tend to synthesize with Ni, I come up with a singular overall opinion, rather than an opinion about each piece. (FWIW, I don't have an issue with Mane's motivations, I just disagree with his reasoning.)

 

[Tiltyred]

AHA!

Synthesizing with Ni and coming up with a singular overall opinion is what nfp calls "being judgmental."

That INFP does not do this is why INFJ feels it's getting cake batter rather than cake.

Yup. Thanks, uumlau.

 

[Fidelia]

That last statement is helpful. Instead of seeing each piece of information in the context of how it fits into the whole machine as a working part, it is viewed individually without the context of how it fits into a particular structure (or what its job is in the "machine").

No wonder then that we really need to know what the desired outcome is (what machine are we building and how do these parts fit with it), while the predominantly Fi people feel that we don't even know what all parts we have and what kind of machines could potentially be built out of them, so sorting the parts is rather premature.

So I'm raging at the other person not believing me that that part is not going to fit into the machine I'm trying to build, while they can't believe that I would be chucking out perfectly serviceable parts that could be useful for something down the road, especially when we're not even sure yet what we're making.

I also only want to consider parts manufacturers that have a name for making reliable parts of the kind I need, while they are more open to looking at a variety of different manufacturers, some known and some new companies, because there are a variety of different parts that they might need and that my favourite manufacturer may not specialize in.

Interesting!

 

[Glycerine]

The thing that confused me about the whole situation was was how it all transpired. From the get go, it was easy to tell that the whole thing was about the INFJ ex-wife and by the time, there was the heart-felt letter, I was even more confused about it. While I am sure the situation was quite bitter and heart-breaking, I kept thinking, "there's got to be more to the story.... something seems off." I will admit that at first it truly offended me because I saw it as an unfair to a number of people on the forum but I think in the end, it truly doesn't matter.

 

[1487610420]

So...what was the topic again?

 

[uumlau]

That last statement is helpful. Instead of seeing each piece of information in the context of how it fits into the whole machine as a working part, it is viewed individually without the context of how it fits into a particular structure (or what its job is in the "machine").

No wonder then that we really need to know what the desired outcome is (what machine are we building and how do these parts fit with it), while the predominantly Fi people feel that we don't even know what all parts we have and what kind of machines could potentially be built out of them, so sorting the parts is rather premature.

So I'm raging at the other person not believing me that that part is not going to fit into the machine I'm trying to build, while they can't believe that I would be chucking out perfectly serviceable parts that could be useful for something down the road, especially when we're not even sure yet what we're making.

I also only want to consider parts manufacturers that have a name for making reliable parts of the kind I need, while they are more open to looking at a variety of different manufacturers, some known and some new companies, because there are a variety of different parts that they might need and that my favourite manufacturer may not specialize in.

Interesting!

Keep in mind that ISFPs may be more inclined to the Ni-synthesis point of view. I've both Si-ish and Se-ish dance instructors, and it's the Se ones that tend to synthesize and show how everything fits together into a coherent whole (tert/inf Ni). The Si-ish ones will pull things apart into distinct steps and pieces, leaving the overall synthesis as an exercise for the dancer.

 

[PeaceBaby]

See, I don't want Ni synthesis, I want your raw data. I need to be able to synthesize it myself, and only I can ascertain what's useful from getting it in unprocessed form. I'll form my own opinion from that.

 

[Tiltyred]

*nod nod nod* There's the breakdown. We can't reverse engineer. Too hard.

 

[Starry]

Talking to myself inside a thread on a public forum...

I totally want to start an ENTP remorse thread. I wonder if it will be short?

 

[PeaceBaby]

*nod nod nod* There's the breakdown. We can't reverse engineer. Too hard.

Agreed! And with that, the thread ended!

Seriously, it's become way more clear to me in this thread that you can't, not that you won't. It's like asking me not to feel something about everything. I just do. You just do too, but it's that Ni thang.

It's why I will keep working on my 4 (or maybe it will be 5) part series above. I am determined to establish some way of moving forward! I realize you can't offer over totally raw ingredients, but I suspect we can get closer than we do.


Now I feel comfortable to answer this:

But in esse, ‘raw batter’ sounds very much like “Me. Me me me.”

It is. I want each individual story, so I offer my own. It's the only one I have authority of. It's the only one I can relate without presuming to conclude anything about anybody else. I'm like a distillery, but all the ingredients have to be added first. And I'll let those ingredients mix and intermingle for a long time. I'l add a lot of them along the way.

When you say, "Me me me" it sounds very selfish. It's hard to dissociate and not think you think I'm being selfish by extension.

It's why I tolerate Mane and his patently clear motivation / agenda from the get-go. It's why even though my feelings get hurt I stick around. It's why I let OA's voice ring through true she way she needs it to.

And that's why, all through this thread, I have maintained that OA was still offering up raw batter, something less than a finished product. That said, I'm not going to deny she seems to be close to making a conclusion. That cake's probably headed for the oven as we speak, and maybe she's even making icing right now (I hope it's cream cheese icing, that's my favorite.) But if it was already cake, she wouldn't be looking for more ingredients, your raw data.

And I say that with all due respect to [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], with her feeling like more is going on. Like I said before, from my vantage point, OA wouldn't be in a thread like this just to make INFJ's eat cake. Heck, maybe she was taking some of the emotional toll out on the thread as a whole, venting with some unconscious intent to lay wider blame. But, I can't even imagine what she would gain from that. It's too frustrating.

Does that help at all?

 

[Tiltyred]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] *chuckle*
Magic 8 ball says "It is decidedly so."
[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]
If it's helpful to you, it's helpful.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I totally want to start an ENTP remorse thread. I wonder if it will be short?

Very short.

 

[uumlau]

Talking to myself inside a thread on a public forum...

I totally want to start an ENTP remorse thread. I wonder if it will be short?

Very short.

Not that short ...

ENTP1: OK, you can show your remorse, now.
ENTP2: No, U.
ENTP1: I said so first. I guess you're incapable of showing remorse.
ENTP2: Yeah, way to distract from the fact that you can't show remorse.
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
...

 

[uumlau]

To be fair, the INTJ version would be short:

INTJ1: Do you ever show remorse?
INTJ2: No, not really. You?
INTJ1: Nope.
INTJ2: Cool.

 

[Tiltyred]

True ENTP Crazy Wife convos I have had:

"My wife yells at me. She's crazy. She's on medication and seeing a counselor."
"Oh! You poor man! I'm so sorry to hear this! What does she yell at you about?"
"I dunno, like, she says I'm never home for dinner."
"You do have dinner most nights with Miss Blahblah from work. So why don't you go home to your wife and kids?"
"Because I hate getting yelled at."

"God, things are bad in my marriage right now."
"Oh, no, I was hoping the counselor had helped. What's making it worse?"
"I dunno, I mean ... she wanted to talk, so we talked, and, y'know, I really opened up, I mean, I ended up telling her about the five affairs I've had, and it's like ... there's no understanding there, I mean ... all she does is yell. I don't know how much longer I can take this abuse."

"Wife threw me out."
"Oh gosh."
"Yeah, she said why don't I go live with my coworker Miss BlahBlah since I spend so much time with her."
"Oh gosh. So now what are you going to do?"
"I'm moving in with Miss BlahBlah."

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] *chuckle*
Magic 8 ball says "It is decidedly so."

Very short.

Not that short ...

ENTP1: OK, you can show your remorse, now.
ENTP2: No, U.
ENTP1: I said so first. I guess you're incapable of showing remorse.
ENTP2: Yeah, way to distract from the fact that you can't show remorse.
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP1: <evasion and accusation>
ENTP2: <evasion and accusation>
...

There's a part of me that would feel *slightly unsure* about revealing how long I was actually cracking-up over these.

I stepped away from my computer and returned to a gold-mine of comedy. And I really needed it in this instance. Haha Thanks so much!!!

 

[Society]

interesting focus...

If the net result is understanding, but understanding was reached via a process that leaves casualities left and right, then what you might end up with is Understanding, With No Desire to Interact Further. There has to be a better way of going about it. (and now this post is becoming more general)

the only unintended casualty cases which i found to be curious where [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION] - in both cases i found the response interesting precisely because they outlined the negative expectation much earlier then i could expect:

inform them that they have conducted themselves in a way which has wronged me one way or another, and the result is a raging and prideful statement of how kind and harmless they are and how you are delusional to believe you've being hurt, and thought i should be remorseful for the act of informing them otherwise.​

i am happy that i didn't allow it to steer me and i kept the benefit of my doubt, but the perfection in which it fitted the mold was uncanny.

the interesting thing for me is that it puts my wife in a much more positive light - is that in something that small as taking responsibility for a verbal offense or causing frustration in her conduct in a discussion, especially with a complete stranger, my ex's ego would be able to handle easily, at least back in her better days. relatively to that, acknowledging the reality that the consequences of momentary rage and some errors in judgement is being destructive for your child and is continuously destructive to a man you once loved and wanted to do good by, is freaking huge. in that context, she's failing to run the marathon, they failed to walk a block.

See, that's what I think Mane is ok with - he uses you to get what he needs, so he pushes it to the extreme. As far as he dare - and he realizes he's burning bridges.

like i said, no bridges where built where the fire would spread, and honestly there was a lot more revealing information in the reactionary behavior and conclusions they came too then in the confessions.

my current filtering problem - which i don't expect help with but might as well share for the benefit of a warning - after understanding the deeper dynamic, it's clear that the "SWAT team" doesn't represent most INFJs:

imagine if you will a group of ENTPs just tell each other how awesome all of their Ne ideas are, how they should just trust that all their ideas are practical and screw the consequences, and how fun it is to manipulate people and screw the needs and desires of their Fe from ever standing in the way, and how anyone who expects otherwise just doesn't get them. i am not saying its impossible, i've being told that in the past it's being the case, and i am happy i wasn't here to see it, since it's clear that those ENTPs wouldn't be putting each other in a very healthy position, that would be using the MBTI for affirmation to tell themselves that they don't need to grow rather then the potential MBTI has for growth, reducing each other to limited double function people.

this is the apparent dynamic of the INFJ SWAT team, one where they have being under the influence of each other in doing so for what is quite possibly years. most INFJs you'd meet - online or in real life - aren't going to have that influence, in fact they are the least likely of any type to have such an influence. as a result, the information they give and - more importantly - demonstrate, has to be filtered appropriately.