[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[Fidelia]

I kind of feel like Ni looks at the the data available, looks for patterns or an overall picture emerging (or waits until the patterns develop), then checks it against Ti (which organizes and double checks information) and then if a new structure is necessary, everything gets revamped. Therefore, we'd be very unlikely to make a statement about how things are based purely on our own experience, without checking it with other experiences over the course of a long period of time, or seeing if it holds true for other people. I think that's part of what makes me impatient about the each person sharing their own experience as truth thing - I am inclined to want to point out where it diverges from mine or other's experiences, not to discount it, but to suggest that some restructuring is necessary, because that's what I would want from someone else if they felt that I had missed something important that would skew my data.

I think what you are saying PB is that Fi takes a myriad of other stories to construct the first picture, seeing what resonates as truth with them - maybe a bit like a mosaic? Whereas, we would be more likely to come up with a theoretical model, and then test it for leaks by using other people's information later to either disprove or confirm.

Perhaps also more emphasis is placed with Fi on not assigning validity to any of the stories, but letting the truthometer do that itself (screening happens at that point). I am more likely to only consider those people I consider reliable sources (screening is first rather than later). The flaw I see with my way is that sometimes I discount some things of value because of the source they originated from, and I also tend to be reluctant to discount someone whom I trust, even if their behaviour has changed since I started trusting them.

I don't think for me the family resemblance analogy holds true. Take a real life example: At Christmas time, one person was exclaiming how my nephew looks exactly like my father. Aside from having very different colouring, different facial structure, body type, mannerisms, personalities and interests from my dad, my nephew is the spitting image of his father. He speaks like his dad, walks like him, talks like him and despite disliking him, has very similar mannerisms and interests to him. You couldn't tell that my sister was in any way part of the process of my nephew coming to be! Is it that I don't want to admit that my nephew looks like my dad? Not at all! I just have a hard time considering the other person's perspective as valid, considering the facts at hand.

I will agree that even unhealthy INFJ behaviours will be expressed in a way more in keeping with INFJ type than with an entirely different personality type. So for example, if INFJs are somewhat conflict avoidant and also are prone to not getting involved with (or staying involved with) those who have too different of viewpoints to reconcile themselves with without constant friction, an unhealthy INFJ will become a doorslammer extraordinaire and will refuse to talk about what happened or try to repair it. I don't think that makes them typical of other INFJs. It makes their behaviour a caricatured, exaggerated and destructive version of normal, but not unhealthy ways of relating.
[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] - I didn't realize that you were looking for the kinds of anecdotes others have shared above. When I think of the word remorse, I'm thinking of deep, deep regret for something that has extremely negatively impacted other people in a life-changing way. If it is helpful to you to hear about more regular, every day instances where it has been necessary to apologize or where I've double-checked to ensure that I haven't offended, I can do that.

Just a short time ago, a friend had written to me about an instance where an NFJ friend had said something that inadvertently touched some of her deepest insecurities (he had given kind of a back-handed compliment). She even wrote to him to explain what he had said and how it had been hurtful to her (atypical of usual behaviour for her type, but the friendship mattered to her), and his response was such that she resolved never to trust him with important information, if he couldn't see even with help that some damage had been done. I responded to her privately and expressed some of my thoughts on the issue and didn't hear back for some time. Knowing my tendancy to over-obsess, I assumed that she was just busy. Then I started thinking, what if I am just as oblivious as said friend was?? I wrote her to apologize if I had stepped somewhere I shouldn't have and make sure she knew that wasn't my intention and to disregard and blow away the chaff of anything in my response that had been less than useful. She responded by saying she had been busy and felt the stuff I said had been helpful but deserved a good reply and then life came along etc etc and it didn't happen. We resumed our exchange and all was well.

Sometimes on here I have had a tendancy to step in and try to mediate between two strangers (particularly when I first came here). I realized fairly quickly how directive and pushy that came off, even though I hadn't meant it that way. I was interpreting their style of interaction as meaning what it would if I had interacted in that way and I responded in the way that I believed would be most helpful to me were I in their shoes. Despite apologizing for wandering in where it was not my place to wander, it took some time and a build up of more positive exchanges before things returned to less shaky ground.

Throughout the years, I have sent a number of people (both male and female) on here that I have had more one on one exchanges with small presents (not high monetary value) for a special occasion, or just for fun, because it is exciting to get mail. In all cases, I've checked ahead to ensure that I am not making the other person uncomfortable by doing so. Most of the time, people have been thrilled to be thought of and have someone try to guess what would please them. In some, it's been kind of a meh response, which makes me realize perhaps it made them feel awkward, obligated or unsure about me. In one case, I received a negative response, which I was deeply embarrassed about because the parcel was misinterpreted as meaning something I didn't mean at all. In the one case, the person took my present to mean that I was showering them with pity (which wasn't the case at all) in addition to feeling from other exchanges that I was patronizing them and assuming I knew something about them that I clearly didn't or was inaccurately equating previous experiences I had had with others to their experiences. (That certainly wasn't my intention, but it did open my eyes to the fact that I can come off that way and that it can be annoying and irritating). They also interpreted genuine interest in life experiences very different from mine to be overly curious, stalkery or intrusive. I wish I had understood that before (I guess no experience goes to waste and it is easier to see those things after the fact), but the only thing I could do by then was bring up the subject the best way I knew how, apologize for making them feel that way and try to clarify my intentions and after that let sleeping dogs lie so as not to create any new misunderstandings.

As a kid, a piano teacher of mine (who was a rather blunt and unhappy person) blew up at me during a piano lesson. She had told me in the past that if I made a mistake I was supposed to continue on playing. In this instance, she pointed out my mistake, I said, "I know" and I kept playing. I think it was a combination of various factors (it was the only week my mum wasn't waiting downstairs during the lesson, the lady was going through a lot of stressful events in her life, and she was dealing with great pain from a recent surgery). Anyway, she took my "I know" to mean "I know everything" and so exploded, left the room for 10 minutes while she banged cupboards etc in the kitchen and then she came back and resumed the lesson like nothing had happened. I had never been so devastated in my life and didn't want to cry in front of her, but it was dreadful getting through the rest of the lesson and I had no idea how I was going to face her again. I was 13 at the time, and after discussing the situation with my mum, she went the next week and talked privately with the lady (who by then was a little nervous herself, as she knew she had been out of line) and just said how badly I felt and that I really did not feel that way at all and was very sorry if I had given off that impression. After I went upstairs, I said sorry, and the lesson resumed as usual. It taught me a very important lesson which has been useful to me to this day, both about how to resolve conflict, as well as about intentions not always being enough. It's made me careful to think about how I may be perceived by others in authority, even if my intentions are good.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I don't think for me the family resemblance analogy holds true. Take a real life example: At Christmas time, one person was exclaiming how my nephew looks exactly like my father. Aside from having very different colouring, different facial structure, body type, mannerisms, personalities and interests from my dad, my nephew is the spitting image of his father. He speaks like his dad, walks like him, talks like him and despite disliking him, has very similar mannerisms and interests to him. You couldn't tell that my sister was in any way part of the process of my nephew coming to be! Is it that I don't want to admit that my nephew looks like my dad? Not at all! I just have a hard time considering the other person's perspective as valid, considering the facts at hand.

Yes, exactly the extrapolation I was hoping for too ... if you disagree with your friend, that you don't look at all alike, then to their eyes you come across as being in some sort of denial on the issue. After all to them, you DO look alike, but they are making such a declaration based on a smaller slice of data and if they knew more about your family, saw more pictures of family members etc. they may update that opinion to what you'd consider a more complete one.

YAY! That being said though, within a certain perspective, their comment may still possess some validity ...

I am signing off for now, but wanted to jump in on this with that quick thought! Have a safe and Happy New Year's night all!

 

[OrangeAppled]

[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] - Thanks for your contribution. I think you really pinpointed the major theme in all of my complaints concerning INFJs - the idea of a lack of remorse. I worded it as not taking responsibility or blame, but "lack of remorse" is much better. I think too, you articulated the point of what I was doing clearly; certainly not trying to make INFJs looks bad or demand some explanation/apology from them for someone else's behavior.

I honestly want(ed) to be proven wrong in a sense. To hear an INFJ relate an experience where they hurt someone or committed a wrong, fully saw their own hand in it, felt deep remorse & regret, and then made restitution and/or significant changes, would be wonderful. But I don't think it's going to happen. Most stories here will make them look good; I fully expected that, as I noted there tends to be a "victim" spin, being "guilty" of being too nice & justifying everything "not nice" because of it.

The frustation comes when things unfolded just as I suspected.... because I really want(ed) to believe that INFJs aren't like the many I've encountered. Being told I'm wrong & that they just don't relate to my list or flaws in Ni descriptions doesn't say much to me. I just continue to see people who feel they have nothing to be remorseful over; and I find that impossible in any human, as everyone has been dead wrong in an awful way at some point.

And I certainly distinguish such "remorse" from being "sorry", as I go into at the bottom...

So [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] I very much anticipated this kind of response or a "mess"; as I said before, I only hoped it would go differently because I wanted to see humility & remorse in INFJs. I'm sure some will read this thread & find INFJs to be polite and contained in their demeanor & come away with the impression that they are "victims" and I am the villain. But a pretty package of politeness doesn't necessarily equal someone who has & expresses the kind of deep remorse Mane speaks of. I understand not wanting to share such experiences, but at this point, I can't take someone's word for it when I have too much other data which says otherwise. I really wanted something to throw a wrench into the pattern that has emerged for me; not to hear an admittance of being a nasty person (which certainly would only confirm the patten), but to witness an INFJ person able to see & regret when they've done bad things & there is no one else to blame (like all people will do, however healthy or nice otherwise).

Really, I'd welcome even third party stories, where non INFJs relate a time when an INFJ showed true remorse & acted in-line with their expression, with no hint of blame on others, no spinning as a misunderstanding, no justification.

which would make sense, except i've being in a couple of those circles for years and find it remarkable in retrospect that i've never seen that, and then i came here and met other people who've being in the various circles of INFJs from their own lives and have never seen that, and now i see a thread full of INFPs speaking about being in those inner circles and never seen that... and i've never known anyone who has. can you see where i am coming from? wouldn't you find it the slightest bit remarkable? the specific actions of each are unique for each case, but the lack of remorse is persistent.

This is why I spoke of patterns... There is a certain way this remorse is avoided, and I tried to get at that by bringing in the theory, because I see the two patterns as connecting. I'd like to see this pattern broken.

When I think of the word remorse, I'm thinking of deep, deep regret for something that has extremely negatively impacted other people in a life-changing way.

This was more what I wanted to see. Everyday apologies over social gaffes & failure to be polite is not really my idea of remorse either.

More often than not, such apologies & adjustments in behavior to prevent future offense benefits the INFJ (or whoever) as much as the people they've offended. Most of time, such offenses were not due to selfishness or true thoughtlessness, and their damage was minimal.

Not to say true & deep remorse doesn't benefit a person in the long run; but at the time it is required, it often means experiencing emotions & making changes which are uncomfortable, to say the least. It often is simply humiliating & makes you very small, not winning you points socially, or making you feel good to be magnanimous, or making you the bigger person, etc. I don't want to see an INFJ humiliated in this way, I only want to know that it can & has occurred.

 

[FemMecha]

Type differences or not, this thread is extremely dysfunctional. [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] and [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] of course we all have deep felt remorse and reconciliation which we have shared with each other and our loved ones. Maybe some will share these here, but the way this is being communicated is emotionally manipulative and highly controlling. Look it up. Read your own list. The two of you are the ones playing tyrant/victim. YOU are the ones who have suffered so from INFJs, but now are demonstrating much of the very behavior you are accusing people of having. There is no remorse from you for this nor will there be.

The best and the absolute worst people in this world can write out heart felt remorses, and if that is done here your personal lack of resolution will not be fixed. You don't need to attack online peopl. You need resolution and possibly professional help. Using something as personal and vulnerable as REMORSE to satisfy your own indulgence at any cost to others is not right.

My husband, family, employers, even my ex-husband are happy and satisfied with the remorse and apologies I have given them and some even think I'm the kindest person they have ever met. If you and Mane want to imagine and impose a bunch of weird, delusional shit on me, go for it. I don't care enough what you think of me, and doubt far too much the hope of it helping to bare my soul to you. You have in no way earned my trust, and have done quite the opposite. I'm quite shocked by the level of behavior. What you are doing is downright shitty. So go ahead talk some more shit. If you are sincere then it's your turn to figure out how to communicate with INFJs because so far you have not succeeded in your efforts.

 

[King sns]

Eh hem.

Mods, can we make a Mane's ex-wife thread in the graveyard?

 

[King sns]

maybe i wasn't clear - i have never seen an INFJ do this:

"the ability to see one's self in a larger story, to admit for unintended consequences our actions and behaviors have on another, to have a sense of proportions and thus grasp disproportional responses when the actions were intended, to acknowledge the pain of another when we are it's cause, to place our ego aside, to admit our fault and question our believes about ourselves and put them aside to acknowledge a reality that isn't flattering at all, but is still better to measure ourselves by because it is a larger world with many subjective worlds within it. we give up a lot of our ideals when we allow ourselves to experience remorse, it makes us feel like shit, but we accept it and , because we're not doing it to make ourselves feel good, we're doing it for someone else, though we do gain the benefit through personal growth and the ability to conduct healthier relationships with others."

You had a really big sample size of INFJ's to draw from, I noticed.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

So [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] I very much anticipated this kind of response or a "mess"; as I said before, I only hoped it would go differently because I wanted to see humility & remorse in INFJs. I'm sure some will read this thread & find INFJs to be polite and contained in their demeanor & come away with the impression that they are "victims" and I am the villain. But a pretty package of politeness doesn't necessarily equal someone who has & expresses the kind of deep remorse Mane speaks of. I understand not wanting to share such experiences, but at this point, I can't take someone's word for it when I have too much other data which says otherwise. I really wanted something to throw a wrench into the pattern that has emerged for me; not to hear an admittance of being a nasty person (which certainly would only confirm the patten), but to witness an INFJ person able to see & regret when they've done bad things & there is no one else to blame (like all people will do, however healthy or nice otherwise).

Really, I'd welcome even third party stories, where non INFJs relate a time when an INFJ showed true remorse & acted in-line with their expression, with no hint of blame on others, no spinning as a misunderstanding, no justification.

This makes a lot of sense, and sorts out a lot of confusing nuances.

I dislike bringing ‘type’ too heavily into these things because often it seems to me like people are contorting their experience to fit in the box rather than actually finding a bona fide ‘type’ thing going on- but I really do think a lot is being lost in translation here. And I think this helps pinpoint it. With the usual ‘I can’t speak for all INFJs’ disclaimer, I think I can say that we typically find talking about remorse to be an empty thing. It certainly helps to say “I’m sorry”- but more than anything else, my opinion of whether someone else feels remorse is formed by other indications. Like the old saying goes ‘sorry is easy to say’, I don’t trust words as much as I trust other indications and I personally find drawn out explanations of remorse can look and feel contrived (to me). Someone saying “I’m sorry I ate your last popsicle without asking” doesn’t mean anywhere near as much to me as that person not doing it in the future- or even better, if they learned to never ‘use up the last of anything without asking first’…..the deeper the ‘roots’ of that lesson spread, the more I believe they actually ‘got’ it. I’ve used a ridiculously innocuous example, but the underlying principle applies. I show it in other ways because I watch for it in other ways, and I just don’t work those details out aloud. I absolutely feel remorse though. I don’t like telling stories about it because that just feels empty. The only way to know I’m telling the truth is to know me and to have experienced it in action. I suspect this is relatively common for ‘us’ (INFJs), and maybe we take for granted that others go by the same indications (when that isn’t the case).

I apologize if I’ve been harsh, my language gets harsh when I feel like my back is somehow against the wall and I don’t clearly understand why- my single only priority becomes figuring out what the problem is, and I can lose sight of my tone. It can become a frantic priority, I become singularly focused on figuring out what is going on. I can understand the “Why does it matter if someone has this opinion? If it isn’t true, then why get wound up?” criticism- but the thing is, I strongly suspect we use the judgment of others to navigate our external environment more than others do- I think that is what Fe is, it helps us define Se as a sort of reality check (because our direct link to Se is so weak). [eta: It's not that we mistake outside judgment for our own- we just use it more than NFPs, I believe.] When something comes up that doesn’t make sense (and especially if it keeps coming up), it’s troubling, and it becomes more and more troubling each time it comes up.

I do suspect it’s going to take a third person account, though, because I *suspect* it just isn’t INFJ style to give emotive accounts of something like that. It makes me feel kinda slimy and contrived just thinking about it.

 

[Rasofy]

Really, I'd welcome even third party stories, where non INFJs relate a time when an INFJ showed true remorse & acted in-line with their expression, with no hint of blame on others, no spinning as a misunderstanding, no justification.

This was more what I wanted to see. Everyday apologies over social gaffes & failure to be polite is not really my idea of remorse either.

More often than not, such apologies & adjustments in behavior to prevent future offense benefits the INFJ (or whoever) as much as the people they've offended. Most of time, such offenses were not due to selfishness or true thoughtlessness, and their damage was minimal.

Not to say true & deep remorse doesn't benefit a person in the long run; but at the time it is required, it often means experiencing emotions & making changes which are uncomfortable, to say the least. It often is simply humiliating & makes you very small, not winning you points socially, or making you feel good to be magnanimous, or making you the bigger person, etc. I don't want to see an INFJ humiliated in this way, I only want to know that it can & has occurred.

I see where you're getting at. However, I don't believe most INFJs here have done something that should've resulted in a lifetime remorse or something. Most bad things that people do are somewhat fixable.

Perhaps if you share a story of your own they might end up relating.

 

[Fidelia]

This makes a lot of sense, and sorts out a lot of confusing nuances.

I dislike bringing ‘type’ too heavily into these things because often it seems to me like people are contorting their experience to fit in the box rather than actually finding a bona fide ‘type’ thing going on- but I really do think a lot is being lost in translation here. And I think this helps pinpoint it. With the usual ‘I can’t speak for all INFJs’ disclaimer, I think I can say that we typically find talking about remorse to be an empty thing. It certainly helps to say “I’m sorry”- but more than anything else, my opinion of whether someone else feels remorse is formed by other indications. Like the old saying goes ‘sorry is easy to say’, I don’t trust words as much as I trust other indications and I personally find drawn out explanations of remorse can look and feel contrived (to me). Someone saying “I’m sorry I ate your last popsicle without asking” doesn’t mean anywhere near as much to me as that person not doing it in the future- or even better, if they learned to never ‘use up the last of anything without asking first’…..the deeper the ‘roots’ of that lesson spread, the more I believe they actually ‘got’ it. I’ve used a ridiculously innocuous example, but the underlying principle applies. I show it in other ways because I watch for it in other ways, and I just don’t work those details out aloud. I absolutely feel remorse though. I don’t like telling stories about it because that just feels empty. The only way to know I’m telling the truth is to know me and to have experienced it in action. I suspect this is relatively common for ‘us’ (INFJs), and maybe we take for granted that others go by the same indications (when that isn’t the case).

I apologize if I’ve been harsh, my language gets harsh when I feel like my back is somehow against the wall and I don’t clearly understand why- my single only priority becomes figuring out what the problem is, and I can lose sight of my tone. It can become a frantic priority, I become singularly focused on figuring out what is going on. I can understand the “Why does it matter if someone has this opinion? If it isn’t true, then why get wound up?” criticism- but the thing is, I strongly suspect we use the judgment of others to navigate our external environment more than others do- I think that is what Fe is, it helps us define Se as a sort of reality check (because our direct link to Se is so weak). [eta: It's not that we mistake outside judgment for our own- we just use it more than NFPs, I believe.] When something comes up that doesn’t make sense (and especially if it keeps coming up), it’s troubling, and it becomes more and more troubling each time it comes up.

I do suspect it’s going to take a third person account, though, because I *suspect* it just isn’t INFJ style to give emotive accounts of something like that. It makes me feel kinda slimy and contrived just thinking about it.

This is said much better than I could have. I identify with so much of what you have expressed here. Again, I'm not sure that the feeling of remorse carries much weight with us (Fi places more emphasis on emotion), so much as the effect of remorse (Fe places more weight on outcome).

I hadn't thought about it in exactly the terms Z Buck stated it in, but I think she is right that our feelings about other's criticism do matter because it is part of our way of navigating the world around us.

I've often admired and wondered at the NFP ability to resolve things within oneself. When I have a problem with someone, I can't reach a state of resolution without either repeated check ins throughout the process to clarify and see how the other person reacts, the grounding effect of a third party reaction to either confirm or call into question my own impressions, or else an incredible amount of time to distance myself enough to see things more objectively.

This doesn't seem to be necessary for introverted feelers. It's not that I can't think for myself, but rather that the data I need to decide on a course of action is located somewhere outside of myself and requires my gathering it up first.

Re the remorse stuff, I think that anything that huge will usually take the form of a change of action/understanding/lesson learned more than a lot of talking about the emotional aspect of it. Perhaps what Z Buck has said offers some key as to why INFJs can seem super sensitive to criticism. Being that outside judgements (particularly from those whom we value) are a factor in navigating the world around us, when someone offers something that is greatly at odds with our own perceptions, it takes some time to sort out why there is such disparity and what our reaction to it will be. In the past, I think I took it more at face value and just felt deeply embarrassed for not seeing my failings myself. As time has gone on, I think I am more likely to examine more factors to evaluate what change is necessary and why.

No matter what it is, the process takes some time (and verbalizing any of it will take even longer) and so it may initially look like not being open to constructive criticism, when that may not be the case at all. I'm wondering if that's part of what others feel is a lack of taking responsibility for our actions.

Generally, I think I am a lot harder on myself internally than most other people are on me, but I do not often verbalize it, which I think may lead to a perception that I don't see my faults. There are definitely places in my past relationship that if I had it to do over, I would change. Things that were very much my fault.

In some ways though, the stronger that feeling is and the more serious the issue is, the less likely I am to talk about it openly. Part of that is a dislike of emoting in front of people (close or not close). Part is sometimes feeling too close to someone to know how to verbalize the depth of what I am feeling, as it is uncomfortable and I need to see them all the time, and I'm not sure how to go on afterwards. Sometimes it is needing time to sort it all out in my own head. Mostly when it is verbalized, it's more after the fact, in an attempt to share what I have learned, to help determine a course of action, or to prevent others from making the same mistake. In that sense, I am not afraid to be open about my past foibles. However, I probably won't talk about them just for the sake of discussing them, unless there is a productive purpose in doing so.

 

[Society]

To hear an INFJ relate an experience where they hurt someone or committed a wrong, fully saw their own hand in it, felt deep remorse & regret, and then made restitution and/or significant changes, would be wonderful. But I don't think it's going to happen.

except it did happen, in a smaller but still meaningful scale:

@Mane - I didn't realize that you were looking for the kinds of anecdotes others have shared above. When I think of the word remorse, I'm thinking of deep, deep regret for something that has extremely negatively impacted other people in a life-changing way. If it is helpful to you to hear about more regular, every day instances where it has been necessary to apologize or where I've double-checked to ensure that I haven't offended, I can do that.

thanks. and yes i was, but you take what it can get, and the sense of scale doesn't diminish the fact it is sitting on the right graph.

if you look here:

the ability to see one's self in a larger story, to admit for unintended consequences our actions and behaviors have on another, to have a sense of proportions and thus grasp disproportional responses when the actions were intended, to acknowledge the pain of another when we are it's cause, to place our ego aside, to admit our fault and question our believes about ourselves and put them aside to acknowledge a reality that isn't flattering at all, but is still better to measure ourselves by because it is a larger world with many subjective worlds within it. we give up a lot of our ideals when we allow ourselves to experience remorse, it makes us feel like shit, but we accept it and , because we're not doing it to make ourselves feel good, we're doing it for someone else, though we do gain the benefit through personal growth and the ability to conduct healthier relationships with others.

that balded parts are the part that i feared they might have an impossible time with, in essence, the act of mentally and meaningfully insulting ourselves in regards to what is meaningful to us.

yet in each one of those "little anecdotes", the INFJ who provided it did just that:

brusque

an annoying INFJ with directive approach and know-it-all notions.

as well as yourself:

stalkery or intrusive

in other words, they have taken the Fe resulting ego structure, and place it aside to see themselves within the Ti>Fe mental world, that larger platform made of many patterns & facts and subjective worlds within it that is trying to reach some internal consistency. it's a world in which your mind will insult you a lot the more you care about anyone, because you never get to consciously deny or decide what you think the causality your actions and choices had within the subjective realms of other. they did that, and you did too - processed the information and took the bitter pills within it like champs. they have chosen to feel shitty about something they did for the sake of someone else (which goes back to the decision world and ideal structure of Fe>Ti). they went back and forth and made the dive.

that doesn't mean that a sense of scale isn't there, the worst the actions get, the more insulting it would be to believe about yourself, the stronger the emotional dissonance would be. however, the reason it inspires faith is that it is a one way stream:
being able to acknowledge the smaller scale actions and resulting insults might not mean or deny whether one can acknowledge the larger ones, but the opposite isn't the case - if one's esteem can't take the smaller insults the reality of their action bestows upon them, it is extremely unlikely to be able to take the heavier ones.

those three showed that they can do that.

which in turns means that at least in some way, they have being able to get to know the experience of this:

to understand what that means, we have to ask what is forgiveness, what stands behind the word: forgiveness isn't just some abstract form of mental justice, just like remorse is the promise to try to not cause what you just felt remorseful for, protect the other from that aspect of yourself, so in turn, forgiveness is the act of relieving one's self from the fear of being caused that pain in the future, and in return, opening one's self to see the good in the other person, which then can play its role in healing the one expressing remorse, the one who gave up some of their esteem for the other person, relieving them of feeling crappy about themselves and what they did.

tl;dr: i wanted to be proven wrong, and unless i am misreading something, i think i got sufficiently strong evidence that i was. thank you all.

 

[Halla74]

I'm out of this discussion, but wanted to leave on a positive note to tell [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] how much I respect your innate desire for diplomacy and unique, important insights. [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION], and others here, I admire because they always go way above and beyond the call of duty to understand how other people think and communicate and try to help wherever they can. I have seen both of you be patient in ways that blow my mind on several occasions. If there is something like karma in this world I hope it results in people doing the same for you. You never expect from others what they expect from you, and you have that deep compassion combined with reason. Those I mentioned here and a few others are a rare few that I could trust as friends. I realize this is off-topic a bit, but I just thought it was important to state publicly after everything.

Everyone you mentioned above is indeed diplomatic, patient and understanding.

Edit: @Halla74 It would be interesting to hear your perspective on this latest topic in this thread if you happen to have interest and time to kill.

Good morning Fia, Thanks for bringing this topic to my attention; I appreciate it.

I'll try to summarize- Mane has stated that the issue he and others in this thread have against INFJs is that they do not think the type expresses remorse.

Really?
To that entire argument I say "HORSE SHIT."

Any argument that states:

"ALL people OF (any given) TYPE" are "(INSERT STEREOTYPE)" = A petty, biased argument at best, and often BASELESS.

Such arguments are usually based on (a) ignorance, and (b) emotionally charged past experiences (aka events that casued PAIN and FEAR in their lives of the "HATER").

As for those who rally at the hater's side, there are no better justifications for such behavior; at best they were slighted in some way by someone in their past and have found a cheap way to get pent up resentment out of their systems, however they might even be so petty as to be exhibiting "pack behavior" or for lack of a better term "bullying."

A few side notes on this theme amongst humans.

FIRST:
Hysteria is a phenomena that is contagious yet has no real physiological cause, the (overbearing, irrational) fear of one person causes similar extreme physiological responses (fainting, vomiting, etc.) in others proximal to them.

SECOND:
I argue that angry mobs are similarly motivated. Ask any poor soul who was publicly accused of withcraft over the last few centuries how they were treated. Usually burned at the stake, drowned in lakes, stoned to death - or some other horrid, painful death. NOW THEN - How many of the (deceased) accused ACTUALLY posed a THREAT to their communities? NONE. Because WITHCRAFT ISN'T REAL - and NEITHER ARE STEREOTYPES.

THIRD:
I hope everyone here is smart enough to realize that HATRED is not a FAMILY VALUE; neither is HATRED a good thing to PROPOGATE in ONLINE COMMUNITIES.

FOURTH & FINAL:
I offer two quips of wisdom that I learned from my Father that apply to situations like these:

(A) "Who is more foolish, the FOOL or THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEM?"
and
(B) "Never argue with an IDIOT; they will DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL and BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE."

He is an ENTP with an INFJ ex who didn't express remorse and considers that he needs to have the INFJs here express remorse to demonstrate that it is possible for the type.

DISCLAIMER: I have nothing against Mane. Mane and I have conversed in a number of threads, he seems like a very smart fellow and is a good writer.

(1) Mane's INFJ ex-wife is NOT representative of all INFJs in this world - PERIOD.

(2) To those who have similar feelings as Mane, I'll wager that few of them actually knew the MBTI-type of whatever individual was in their opinion "unable to express remorse."

(3) MBTI-type is no ironclad indicator of how any person will behave, what they think, what they feel - or what they believe.

(4) The concept that if every INFJ on this forum were to demonstrate to Mane that they could express remorse serving as a valid indicator that all INFJs in this world are capable of expressing remorse, is for lack of a better term "statistical hogwash."

(5) The concept of using the behaviors of ANY (extremely small) GROUP of people to serve as a PROXY for a MUCH LARGER GROUP of such said people is RIDICULOUS.

(6) I know Mane paid the price of much blood, sweat and tears going through the divorce with his ex-wife. I remember that she would not allow him to see his Step-Son after the divorce. Both of these evnts are sad. So far as divorces go, few are ever easy; most are laden with pain. All too often the children of the divorcing family are used as pawns to harm the other spouse. That is cruel, reckless, and selfish. The way interpersonal relationships work (even romantic ones) is pretty simple - "it takes two to tango." It is rare that one person can hold all the blame, or all the praise for making or breaking any relationship.

(7) Dealing with PAIN in life is NEVER EASY. However, it is IMPORTANT to learn that allowing past painful experiences to exist as EMOTIONAL BAGGAGE is simply bad for YOU and OTHER PEOPLE you will meet and work with over the course of your life. IMHO, it is best to learn from such things, and let them go. Move on, and become a better person from it all.

Many have both before and after his request.

Understood.
I didn't read any of this thread before your mentioning me and providing a summary.
I didn't need to, what I wrote above holds true for a majority of arguments similar to this one.

You can see the exchanges which are pretty extensive.

I'll take your word for it.

I know your wife is an INFJ and thought you would have interesting input.

Yes, you are correct, my wife is an INFJ.
My Mother is an INFJ.
My high school sweetheart is an ENFJ.
My girlfriend in college is an INFJ.
Also, I know many INFJs on this forum.
I cannot say that any of the INFJs I know are unable to express remorse.
Finally, even if one or more of them did ever exhibit such behavior, I would not be so brash as to assign that incident as a hallmark negative behavior of all INFJs worldwide.

I hope my commentary was helpful.
Again, I have nothing against anyone in this thread, but I do not like stereotyping at all.



-Halla74

 

[King sns]

Thank you [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION], really well articulated, better than I could have done on any day.

I kind of wanted to respond to the OP, but also feel compelled to stick up for INFJ's now. So I'm going to give an honest review of the relationships I've had with them. I've never been close to an INFJ, one reason being that there aren't too many of them. The second being that I don't really understand them. I've worked with a couple and really enjoyed it. Since I'm in nursing, they have seemed to get frazzled quick, because a lot of times we can't get to all the things we would like to for our patients. They tend to have an emotional and soft appearance about them. Their caring can't be matched. Even after working for years and years in the field, they don't desensitize. So this is the type for ultimate unconditional compassion. They will work right through their breaks. Usually they are friendlier and less abrasive than my other cohorts. (Not that my cohorts are abrasive, but have tougher skins.)

There isn't anything they do that "drives me nuts" because I'm not close enough to one to notice these things. However, between IRL and the forum, something about them is really confuddling to me. Can't tell if it's their communication style or their thought processes or their body language or just a multitude of things. I am pretty insightful with most people but I have trouble getting a good read on them. It may be because they are doing the functional opposite thing (like enfj's and stp's.) There are a few forum exceptions to this rule.

So basically my only trouble is I don't understand. It would help me to hear more about them. (Maybe I should actually go around to some of the INFJ threads on this site.)

 

[Society]

Really?

take it for what's a red herring can be worth.

but of actual value:

Yes, you are correct, my wife is an INFJ.
My Mother is an INFJ.
My high school sweetheart is an ENFJ.
My girlfriend in college is an INFJ.
Also, I know many INFJs on this forum.
I cannot say that any of the INFJs I know are unable to express remorse.
Finally, even if one or more of them did ever exhibit such behavior, I would not be so brash as to assign that incident as a hallmark negative behavior of all INFJs worldwide.

I hope my commentary was helpful.
Again, I have nothing against anyone in this thread, but I do not like stereotyping at all.



-Halla74

that's a large number of INFJs - you can't say that any of them are unable too, but can you think of and share examples of the ones who have?

 

[Halla74]

Thank you [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION], really well articulated, better than I could have done on any day.

You're welcome Shortnsweet, and thank you too.

take it for what's a red herring can be worth.

Hello, Mane. :hi:
It is not possible to dismiss several concrete examples with a single, vague sentence.
That is an entry-level debating tactic that is not effective.

but of actual value:

that's a large number of INFJs - you can't say that any of them are unable too, but can you think of and share examples of the ones who have?

Not that its any of your business, but yes, I can:

(1) My wife (profoundly) expressed remorse to me years ago when she realized that for a large part of the early years of our relationship her anxiety disorder caused her to be distant, and at times act unkindly toward me.
(2) My Mother expressed remorse after being engaged in a massive argument with her sister, my Aunt, for many years.
(3) My high school sweetheart expressed massive amounts of remorse after being unfaithful.
(4) My college girlfriend expressed remorse to me after she broke a small table I made for her with a hammer because she was very mad at me at one point.

Whether the information above compels you to change your position is up to you.
I've done what I can to enlighten you.
My work here is done.

Cheers, and Happy New Year to you.



-Halla74

 

[cascadeco]

This was more what I wanted to see. Everyday apologies over social gaffes & failure to be polite is not really my idea of remorse either.

Well how lovely that it's not your idea of remorse. Does everyone need to experience feelings in the way that you do? What if I don't view it as a 'failure to be polite' but I actually really did think it was unfair of me to not explain things to the other person, to not initially divulge because of my own crabbiness and pain, and to just leave them hanging?

More often than not, such apologies & adjustments in behavior to prevent future offense benefits the INFJ (or whoever) as much as the people they've offended. Most of time, such offenses were not due to selfishness or true thoughtlessness, and their damage was minimal.

See, I'm of the opinion that the small things build up; that an unacknowledged minor gaffe can cause a reaction or assumption made by the other. This reaction or assumption then feeds into that persons' view of me, whether consciously or not. Then that person may in the future make a choice or do something based on that initial assumption. Then I react to that. And it goes on and on, and then the entire relationship after all of these cause and effects and such eventually gets to a place where it's a really bad spot... all because it started off on one little gaffe that went unacknowledged.

Now it may be that this is ME, this is how I process and view things, that it has no bearing on your world or how you process. And maybe how you filter things has little to no bearing on my world and how I navigate it - therefore for you to expect me to show the same processing of emotions, or whatnot, is from my perspective you wanting me to be more like you.

 

[Society]

(1) My wife (profoundly) expressed remorse to me years ago when she realized that for a large part of the early years of our relationship her anxiety disorder caused her to be distant, and at times act unkindly toward me.
(2) My Mother expressed remorse after being engaged in a massive argument with her sister, my Aunt, for many years.
(3) My high school sweetheart expressed massive amounts of remorse after being unfaithful.
(4) My college girlfriend expressed remorse to me after she broke a small table I made for her with a hammer because she was very mad at me at one point.

Whether the information above compels you to change your position is up to you.
I've done what I can to enlighten you.
My work here is done.

Cheers, and Happy New Year to you.



-Halla74

a few INFJs paved the way, but yes, those accounts help to change my position a great deal actually.

all in all, knowing my suspicion was wrong is very comforting.

 

[Society]

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
i realize it might feel like i joined in only to use your posts and those of others and then abandon the side in an argument, which.. is pretty much the case, so i suppose it feels like it is. but there's a larger point to be made:

i think i've gotten the hang of Fe in FJs, and IxFJs in particular - to understand that "impolite/inappropriate" behavior, or rather, the act of making people feel uncomfortable, is really something many of them seem to experience as.. hard to explain, almost an emotional violation of sorts - as something very hurtful. that's why for them, cases of remorse that seemed inline with that do have substance, even if it was relatively little things, the substance still holds.
then you have halla's accounts that are a lot more substantial. it takes a lot for an Fe user to think of themselves in those terms. "i wasn't being cruel to my spouse", "i was being disloyal", etc', and those are INFJs who pulled through into seen themselves in that light and feeling bad about it and expressed it, placed themselves in a humiliating admitting it to someone whose opinion of them they probably cared a great deal about. it holds onto the essence of what remorse is.

this should be really comforting news for two huge reasons:

the general: social. lowering the shield means more connections can be made with more people which means a richer pool for what each person can bring to your life (well, probably not the ones to whom i was being an asshole here, but in general).

the specific: hope. mental problems can be treated or at least be made aware of, self esteem issues can be outgrown, deep emotional issues can be resolved, trauma can be dealt with, in fact almost every other possible cause for those patterns is something that is at least somewhat flexible. MBTI type doesn't change.

 

[Halla74]

a few INFJs paved the way, but yes, those accounts help to change my position a great deal actually.

Cool deal.

We've all been targeted by stereotypes at some point in our lives, and most of the time the experience is not pleasant.

That is why I feel it is not only in our own best interest, but that of the greater good, if all people try to understand the basis of such feelings that they might find themselves harboring at a given time, before harming their relations with others.

All of us most likely wish to be given a fair chance by others, and the best way to do that (from my own life experience) is to extend that same courtesy to those you meet along the way of your life.

all in all, knowing my suspicion was wrong is very comforting.

I know and understand this feeling all too well.
It took me a very long time to develop my feelings, and my ability to trust my intuition.
That path was deep and plentiful with many humbling and (to be honest) socially awkward experiences.
We're all work in progress.
We all have something to teach others, and also have much to learn from others.
I enjoy my part in both sides of human learning experiences, and each year find out that I know alot less than I thought I did the year before.

Take care, Bro.



-Halla74

 

[1487610420]

After a long and careful consideration, I believe this best summarizes the only possible outcome for INFJ's

 

[Tiltyred]

It would be preferable to reading some of these damn threads, that's for sure.