[Fi] INFP/ENFP: Do you feel "safe" to openly & freely share your thoughts about Fi here?

[Tallulah]

Sorry that may be my fault....a long time ago Sim said his ego was wrapped up in Ti...which I assumed meant ideas,

Yeah, often an xNTP's ego IS wrapped up in Ti, but that's the process again. Confidence in one's ability to pare away the non-essentials and find the root of the problem and the solution in logic. The process, not the idea. The idea is always subject to refining. We can't base our egos on a moving target.

btw, I very much enjoyed your previous post, but didn't necessarily have anything useful to add.

But to what follows, and to PB's earlier question of why INTPs don't often make the effort to translate to Fi language:

I often find at work that I have to go dig up useless, error ridden, flawed market research studies to convince people to make a certain choice. I know the choice is correct as based upon my observations of customers, the market, the product and the needs, it "feels" right. However there must always be the useless data hunt-which wastes 20 to 50K each time.

I often ran into this issue with the engineers I work with as well. During the first few placements of a new instrument I would mention there was an issue that needed investigation. They assumed it was a one-off and ignored me when I said "Have you considered it might be this?" I would watch the same problem crop up on ten or twelve more systems-compile mountains of paper, then go in and say "Umm, it might be that you should consider this." before they would take it seriously. After working with the same team for about five years, I no longer need the mountains of paper-I just say "This seems wrong" and they pay attention, as I have caught so many problems this way in the past-all by visceral gut feelings about how and what a problem may be or about the importance of a problem. I would suggest that Ti alone provides an incomplete data set that could be complemented by Fi analysis depending upon the complexity of the problem at hand and how people contaminated it is.

Before I saw your post, I was making a mental note to make this point. If someone just goes, "hey, something feels wrong," but doesn't offer any reasons, even vague ones, as to why it might feel wrong, it "feels" to us like an extraordinary waste of time when it seems like there is no evidence to back up the suggestion that it might be wrong. Hence, no reason to stop what is, up until now, the best method of attack. BUT, gut reactions can very often be useful. I very, very often rely on hunches and gut reactions and then try to pinpoint exactly what prompted it. After you pair a gut reaction with some possible theories that make it worth pausing to examine the path of action, and those hunches pan out, pretty soon people start paying more attention to your feelings. They've proven to pay off. But you gotta give someone a reason to take a chance on you. They don't live in your brain, and they don't know how to coax a feeling tone into the light and translate it into tangibles. It's a leap of faith for them, too, and one they might not even know how to indulge you in.

PB-- as to your question of reciprocity, remember that INTPs are about the least naturally social people around. Though we might be quite fond of individual people, for the first 20 or so years of our lives, people are strange beings that are good for the exchange of ideas, but sometimes a giant, alien pain in the butt that we don't know how to deal with. As we get older, we learn niceties and develop our Fe and learn to consider the feelings of others. We lose our know-it-all tendencies and try to accept other styles of communication. But to imagine that we would have the people-orientation and social refinement to recognize Fi IRL and then naturally, or perhaps more realistically, magically know the way to ask the right questions so the Fi user feels comfortable and safe to express themselves is kind of laughable. Please note that I'm not calling YOU or even your desire laughable. I'm just saying you are giving us WAY too much credit. Here on the forum, it's a possibility, given enough time and patience, because we're making a point of taking about the different communication styles. But in real life, no one realizes this; all your work INTPs are thinking is, "if you want me to listen, give me a reason," knowing if they wanted to stop the presses, they would know they would have to give a reason. Feelings aren't bad; nor are gut instincts. But in Ti-world, to be comprehensible, they have to be backed up, at least until you have a reputation for being right. This, of course, would apply more to work or academic situations, and not as much to personal ones.

 

[Adasta]

I think its somewhat rare for other types, especially the T ones, to particularly like or respect Fi, *especially* outside of social relationships. Sometimes I can inspire them with Fi, or else set a goal/intention, but usually in executing objectives/tasks, I have to use either Ne or some S. Which is fine with me, Fi sets some lofty ideal/goal, the other functions try to perform the goals.

I have an INTJ friend with whom I studied English Literature when we were 17/18. Although I think he found my emotional responses to various texts to be a bit baffling, I'm pretty sure that my emotional investment in the text was illuminating for him. The depth with which I related to the characters and explained how their feelings informed their actions seemed to give him something to mull over. My intensity counterpointed his detached viewpoint quite nicely so, whenever he was interested in a particular aspect, I could easily explain it through a metaphor which he could also easily understand. I suppose that my Fi (Character X does this because he dreams of being Y) fed nicely into Ti (how does this behaviour fit into the grand scheme of things?).

 

[sculpting]

So I have Fe because I agree with him? What about Lady X who can't for the life of her see anything wrong? Is Tater an INFJ too? What about FineLine? What about the 14 (vs. 11) Fi users who DO feel safe?

I think these questions need to be asked, because there are very very few people on this forum who actually follow function theory who think I have Fe.

I think I agree with him that there was whining to be sure. hehehe, the first time my intj pointed how whiny Fi could be I said "Maybe your Fi." Yeah, I was totally wrong, we can be some whiny mofos. In my reply to macguffin, I guess I was doing what I do with entps-I ask questions to pick apart the problem so I can be sure I understand the arguments they are making. They were not asked in the tone of "Really???" but more in the tone of "Can you clarify this particular point so I am sure I understand what you observed and understood to be true, before I comment on it?" combined with "Have you considered this also might be an influence on the problem under study?"

He did and I pondered and have incorporated it into my ideas of the thread. I dunno about the other INFPs. I have totally gotten pinned in the corner in the past by NFJs here, freaked the hell out and had a emo meltdown. Hell I even did that with an INTP and an ENFJ one time. In retrospect they always seem surprised by how much the comments impact us, as that wasnt the intent-thus it points to an underlying pattern of misunderstanding and overreaction on the Fi users part to Fe. It also highlights how depending upon the topic at hand, an Fi user may have more or less Fi involvement and thus be more or less susceptible to emotional pain upon dismissal. I mostly use Te walls on everything combined with Ni-ish detachment, so unless I care for you, you cant hurt me.

But yeah I get totally why one could feel attacked at times.

 

[MacGuffin]

They asked why people disagreed. They got it. They saw it as complaining.

What is asking for an answer and then dismissing it? That is like getting the answer to your problems and dismissing those answers because you don't see them as answers. Hiding yourself from "the truth" so to say.

There ARE reasons why people complain.

Again, the content wasn't seen because of the complaints. It came across as just more noise.

 

[uumlau]

Before I saw your post, I was making a mental note to make this point. If someone just goes, "hey, something feels wrong," but doesn't offer any reasons, even vague ones, as to why it might feel wrong, it "feels" to us like an extraordinary waste of time when it seems like there is no evidence to back up the suggestion that it might be wrong. Hence, no reason to stop what is, up until now, the best method of attack. BUT, gut reactions can very often be useful. I very, very often rely on hunches and gut reactions and then try to pinpoint exactly what prompted it. After you pair a gut reaction with some possible theories that make it worth pausing to examine the path of action, and those hunches pan out, pretty soon people start paying more attention to your feelings. They've proven to pay off. But you gotta give someone a reason to take a chance on you. They don't live in your brain, and they don't know how to coax a feeling tone into the light and translate it into tangibles. It's a leap of faith for them, too, and one they might not even know how to indulge you in.

This is really good, Tallulah.

What is interesting is that Ti does this same thing, in real life. I've worked with a couple of very INTP INTPs, one of whom is a close friend and former roommate for several years.

Ti+Ne will often say, "No," or "This is wrong," or "You can't do that." That is to say, it will Ne-blurt out a negation of whatever was just presented or said, with no followup reasoning.

How does this differ from Te, or more particularly INTJ? Ni does the "this is wrong" but stays silent. Silently, Ni goes through with the help of Te, and sorts things through, and then Te says, "That approach has a flaw: consider cases A, B and C ..." and then presents a thesis as to exactly what is wrong and why and how to corrected, all neatly packaged for the listener. Ni is doing this inside one's head, often ignoring ongoing conversation, and perhaps appearing to space-out.

In the INTP case, from my INTJ perspective, there is an initial blurting of "No" or "that's wrong" or whatever. Let us assume for a moment that I'm polite and simply ask why it's wrong. [I could, instead, totally dismiss the remark as a waste of my time, as it has no backup reasoning. My level of patience may be very much a function of how much respect I have for the person.] Slowly, and oftentimes painfully slowly to my INTJ perspective, I can gradually get an explanation of what is wrong and why. It can feel like a game of "20 questions" from my point of view, because if it is my idea being criticized, it sounds like the INTP is uttering tautologies and circular logic, none of which contradicts my point. Eventually, we hit upon the crux of the matter, and have an interesting debate and figure out the truth in a mutually agreeable way, but it takes time and patience from my INTJ perspective to get there.

A different scenario is the same behavior, in a business meeting. The INTP says that X is wrong in an Ne exclamation. Then we get to listen to the Ne verbosely outline Ti thought processes, often backtracking, as eventually the INTP gets to the point. It can in fact become very bad if the INTP has little or no respect for others' intellectual aptitude: this is a side of INTPs I hadn't seen until in a work environment, because usually my Ph.D. in physics tends to make them give me a chance to explain my view.

Keep in mind, INTPs aren't ALWAYS like this ... only with new ideas that haven't been fully formulated. The subjective Ti spots "something wrong," but being subjective, it is very difficult to put into words. <-- the bolded is my main point, here. The rest is background/tangential. Keep in mind I'm not talking about making trivial points, e.g., objecting to obviously wrong math, but rather far more complicated and nuanced concepts, where it isn't obvious to what Ti is objecting.

Fi is doing the same thing, in a different context. There is an initial Ne exclamation, and then the expectation is to follow up and figure out the reason for it in a more precise way.

The conflict comes from Fi often being associated with emotional content, as opposed to holistic reasoning. The language sounds emotional, but "feeling" often means a lot more than "I feel sad" or "I shouldn't have had that jalapeno cheeseburger for lunch," but is very much more on the level of an Ni-style hunch. (Personally I see a strong parallel between Ni and Fi, where Fi is kind of the "judgey" version of Ni.)

This is the point where the dismissive language comes in. The superficially emotional content of the Fi statement invokes Fe, not Ti. Fe can be very dismissive, just as Te can ignore a Ti insight, especially when Ti or Fi is having difficulty verbalizing the thought.

Both Ti and Fi require patience on the part of others in order to fully communicate their ideas. I believe this is the "safety" of which PB and others speak. Without that patience, the communication can become tense and awkward, if not outright hostile.

 

[MacGuffin]

This is really good, Tallulah.

What is interesting is that Ti does this same thing, in real life. I've worked with a couple of very INTP INTPs, one of whom is a close friend and former roommate for several years.

Ti+Ne will often say, "No," or "This is wrong," or "You can't do that."

Yeah? I don't see that too often with INTPs, they hem and haw and overuse "maybe". It's the INTJs that like to come to swift conclusions, IME.

 

[Fidelia]

How do you see it working then if the Ti user also has Ni? I find that I get a very strong feeling of whether something is wrong or not, and spend overlong verifying it because I don't want to trust it and say anything until I have enough information. However, in the position of leader, I do realize that I'm inclined to over narrow down possibilities because I dismiss them sooner than Ne/Fi/Te users do.

 

[Adasta]

Both Ti and Fi require patience on the part of others in order to fully communicate their ideas. I believe this is the "safety" of which PB and others speak. Without that patience, the communication can become tense and awkward, if not outright hostile.

It's interesting where you place the "burden", if you will.

I'm not saying this to be deliberately contrary, but you seem to denigrate Fi and Ti as being complicated or tricky in some sort of pejorative way. This is probably just from your own perspective or experience with having to do with Ti um-ing and ah-ing; my reasoning is largely based on the examples you've given, particularly you vs. INTP , if you will.

My point is that I (i.e. Fi) do not need any patience when communicating my idea; I can communicate it quite well. However, where I would appreciate the patience is in the listening. Maybe I'm just being punctilious, but I think it's worthwhile pointing out the subtleties within what you have otherwise accurately pointed out re: Ti & Fi. I find things are much more harmonious for all if someone listens to my initial opinion about why I feel something is wrong and then we all go through the details.

In short: you're right about patience, but I just wonder it is best placed.

 

[uumlau]

Yeah? I don't see that too often with INTPs, they hem and haw and overuse "maybe". It's the INTJs that like to come to swift conclusions, IME.

You're making my point for me. One doesn't see it in oneself. More specifically, from my point of view, I hear that first bit, and THEN it's followed by the hemming and hawing (or question and answer). In this case, your post sounds rather dismissive to me, coming to a swift conclusion. Do you believe that you aren't being dismissive?

Fi can as easily say they're being as careful, and that it's the Fe users that like to come to swift conclusions.

My point here is to use the symmetry of Ti/Fe with Fi/Te to see how it looks/feels from the other side.

How do you see it working then if the Ti user also has Ni? I find that I get a very strong feeling of whether something is wrong or not, and spend overlong verifying it because I don't want to trust it and say anything until I have enough information. However, in the position of leader, I do realize that I'm inclined to over narrow down possibilities because I dismiss them sooner than Ne/Fi/Te users do.

Yeah, you're totally leading with Ni, just as I do. We're the ones who sit on an idea until we're sure of it. The exclamations, the hemming and hawing, appear to arise from Ne, in a stream of consciousness way, especially when one isn't feeling inhibited.

It's interesting where you place the "burden", if you will.

I'm not saying this to be deliberately contrary, but you seem to denigrate Fi and Ti as being complicated or tricky in some sort of pejorative way.

Denigrate? Perhaps the examples feel that way to you. In order to demonstrate a difficulty with a function, one must show the function in a difficult situation. This is Ti out of its natural element, as it were. In another post a few months ago, I was "denigrating" Te to make the same symmetry point with respect to Fe.

Ti comes across to Te/Fi as Fi comes across to Fe/Ti. Te comes across to Ti/Fe as Fe comes across to Fe/Ti. It's not exact, because of the different contexts of T and F, but it appears to be really darn close.

This is probably just from your own perspective or experience with having to do with Ti um-ing and ah-ing; my reasoning is largely based on the examples you've given, particularly you vs. INTP , if you will.

Yes. Now apply the symmetry reasoning.

My point is that I (i.e. Fi) do not need any patience when communicating my idea; I can communicate it quite well. However, where I would appreciate the patience is in the listening.

How does this contradict/modify what I said in the slightest degree?

Let me put it slightly differently, then. When one realizes that one is dealing with Fi or Ti, then one needs to listen, first. Everyone appreciates being listened to, but Fi/Ti need it more than most.

 

[Seymour]

In short: you're right about patience, but I just wonder it is best placed.

I suspect it works much like it works for spouses: each person probably has to feel like they meet the other more than halfway for things to work, given subjective bias.

On the other hand, one hopes the pay-off is such that each side feels like they got the better deal, when all is said and done.

 

[MacGuffin]

You're making my point for me. One doesn't see it in oneself. More specifically, from my point of view, I hear that first bit, and THEN it's followed by the hemming and hawing (or question and answer). In this case, your post sounds rather dismissive to me, coming to a swift conclusion. Do you believe that you aren't being dismissive?

I'm sure it could sound that way, but I added "IME"!

But it's not a swift conclusion, it's a conclusion based on years of observation. I don't think your conclusion about INTPs was swift either for the same reason.

And aren't you undermining your argument now? A half-baked assertion followed by hemming and hawing and qualifications and questions isn't much of a conclusion.

You originally said:

Ti+Ne will often say, "No," or "This is wrong," or "You can't do that." That is to say, it will Ne-blurt out a negation of whatever was just presented or said, with no followup reasoning.

 

[uumlau]

I'm sure it could sound that way, but I added "IME"!

Yes, I saw that.

But it's not a swift conclusion, it's a conclusion based on years of observation. I don't think your conclusion about INTPs was swift either for the same reason.

In other words, "That statement doesn't seem correct." Just like the Fi's were saying about the Fi description. Based on years of observation.

And aren't you undermining your argument now? A half-baked assertion followed by hemming and hawing and qualifications and questions isn't much of a conclusion.

You originally said: <with no followup reasoning>

Nah, I'm just throwing your words back at you: you said "swift conclusions," not me.

Part of my point is that it isn't a conclusion when Ti or Fi makes such an explanation, but the starting point of a discussion.

 

[MacGuffin]

Yes, I saw that.


In other words, "That statement doesn't seem correct." Just like the Fi's were saying about the Fi description. Based on years of observation.



Nah, I'm just throwing your words back at you: you said "swift conclusions," not me.

Part of my point is that it isn't a conclusion when Ti or Fi makes such an explanation, but the starting point of a discussion.

And I'm saying Ti+Ne isn't comparable to Fi+Ne. Ti would love a simple statement, but that's not what occurs. They don't like the "complaining" that comes along with it. That's the sticking point, not a conclusion. Otherwise the same issue would arise with INTJs, and it doesn't.

 

[Laurie]

OP: No, Fi discussions invariably turn into messes. I can deal with it but it does make it difficult to discuss. I personally Fi and I would love to hear more about how it affected people growing up and currently.

As an aside there is enough "I know better than you" going around to overtake a discussion and make it not worth the time since you don't "learn" anything from a discussion framed in that manner.

 

[uumlau]

And I'm saying Ti+Ne isn't comparable to Fi+Ne. Ti would love a simple statement, but that's not what occurs. They don't like the "complaining" that comes along with it. That's the sticking point, not a conclusion. Otherwise the same issue would arise with INTJs, and it doesn't.

As a tip of my hat to your "xkcd" type, allow me to present today's strip:

Frames 1,2: Fi expressing Fi-ness. Fe responding as if it's "complaining." In particular, Frame 2 is how Fi hears the Fe talk.
Frame 3: The crash and burn!
Frames 4,5: A positive expression of Fi.

The issue doesn't arise with INTJ's, by the way, because INTJs just stay quiet about that stuff and don't express Fi ... because it isn't "safe" to do so. We know it would be heard as complaining.

It isn't complaining, unless one defines "complaining" as "trying to work through an emotional/feeling/Fi issue." In Fi terms, though, "complaining" is something very different from "trying to work things through." The reason I use the strip above is that this is someone trying to come to an Fi-style resolution, not simply whining/complaining without any apparent purpose than to gain sympathy/affirmation.

I am capable of expressing Fi now (that I'm older) without it sounding like complaining because I heavily process it before I reveal it. But that is nothing like the Fi-Ne connection, where Fi comes out in an Ne way, much more raw, not an Ni-Te-Fi way. I understand that you don't see the Ti-Ne as being parallel with Fi-Ne, but from my INTJ perspective, they are very similar, but with different context, Ti more intellectual, Fi more emotive.

 

[PeaceBaby]

The Fi-users believe they are discussing ideas, though perhaps in a Fi-friendly language.

The non-Fi-users don't see it that way. They see it as more self-absorbed complaining.

In other words, the non-Fi-users simply don't recognize that there is any content to actually discuss, just complaints to fend off before another thread is ruined by them. Again, it really does come down to communication styles. Even when there is content, it will get passed over because "complaints" are more attention-getting.

Doesn't matter, the problem is in the perception.

If you want my opinion though - there are ideas being discussed AND complaining.

This is the wrong approach. From experience, mods don't read everything, and even if they read the same thing you do, if no one complains they are likely to just leave it alone.

And I'm saying Ti+Ne isn't comparable to Fi+Ne. Ti would love a simple statement, but that's not what occurs. They don't like the "complaining" that comes along with it. That's the sticking point, not a conclusion. Otherwise the same issue would arise with INTJs, and it doesn't.

Again, the content wasn't seen because of the complaints. It came across as just more noise.

Examine your choice to use the word I have bolded above. It predominates your posts on the subject. No other substitutes for it, (except whining I think from that other thread.)

–verb (used without object)
1.
to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault: He complained constantly about the noise in the corridor.
2.
to tell of one's pains, ailments, etc.: to complain of a backache.
3.
to make a formal accusation: If you think you've been swindled, complain to the police.

—Synonyms
1. Complain, grumble, growl, whine are terms for expressing dissatisfaction or discomfort. To complain is to protest against or lament a wrong: to complain about high prices. To grumble is to utter ill-natured complaints half to oneself: to grumble about the service. Growl may express more anger than grumble : to growl in reply to a question. To whine is to complain in a meanspirited way, using a nasal tone: to whine like a coward, like a spoiled child.​

One complains when one orders dinner at a restaurant and it comes to the table cold. One complains when, upon arrival at the expensive hotel, there are no towels in the bathroom. One complains when after a long day's work, the back aches and the feet are tired.

There's an underpinning of emotion when one complains - a person can be sad, angry, terse, in pain ... I am extremely interested to know what emotion you think underpins Fi "complaining" ... what emotional state are you assigning Fi users when they express their Fi "feeling tones" out loud?

Play here with me now, let's see where this goes.

 

[MacGuffin]

It was simply the most polite word I could find to express the idea.

 

[Laurie]

The non-Fi-users don't see it that way. They see it as more self-absorbed complaining.

Actually the problem I see with Mac's post is him speaking for other Fe's. That is where the problem lies. I have non-Fi friends who don't feel the same way about Fi.

"Non-Fi see Fi as complaining" is talking for other people and making your point stronger because "other people" feel that way too.

 

[Tiltyred]

Well, other people do. ...

 

[MacGuffin]

Actually the problem I see with Mac's post is him speaking for other Fe's. That is where the problem lies. I have non-Fi friends who don't feel the same way about Fi.

"Non-Fi see Fi as complaining" is talking for other people and making your point stronger because "other people" feel that way too.

Others have posted and agreed with me. I've discussed this issue with other people before posting here too.

Or I'm lying and I just like picking on you all.