[NF] INFJ/INFP Points of Contention

[OrangeAppled]

I mean, that I can talk more easily about stuff if I don't have to say "I was very depressed, this is how I got better..." but can say "When people are depressed, it often helps them to.."

That's often how I speak . I think it's Ne taking those personal Fi feelings and ideas and universalizing them. It feels far less vulnerable to make it a general statement also.

 

[Billy]

It's amazing how everything in this post rings true. Here is the situation between me (INFJ) and my INFP (ex)girlfriend:

We started dating not long after she and her ex of many years restarted a friendship a year after they had broken up. At first I was cool with this because, having had a 7 year relationship myself and being friends with some of my exes, I know how attached we can feel to someone.

I soon discovered that he was trying to get her back and that she was in a big emotional quagmire, not knowing how to deal with the situation. It became clear to me that she was going to have to make a decision between the two of us and so I broke it off with her and told her to let me know when she had made up her mind. I suspect that she is taking this as rejection and a lack of understanding on my part. However, in my Fe book, things need to be clear, one way or another.

Now I'm confused. I have no idea how Fi makes such decisions. I thought it was a black and white issue with them and that they automatically felt what was right for them or not.

Here is my question: Can Fi make a clear cut decision or not?

Totally agree with your choice in that situation. If someone doesn't know if she wants to be in a relationship or she isn't sure of what she wants, then stay the HELL out of any relationship until you know.

 

[Lauren]

"Eh, many of us are simply lazy and apprehensive. It's our faults. Don't take it personally.

We love you, we just don't always know how to activate that love toward anything productive.

That's why when INFJ comes in and says "Let's do something", the INFP is relieved because they don't have to make a conscious decision to do anything but go with the flow."

For me and my best friend INFJ the bolded really rings true in the "go with the flow" and is illustrative of why my ex-husband ISTP and I had such difficulties. When my girlfriend and I get together, it's a wonderful "let's do something" and "OK, what do you want to do?" Then we happily compromise on something, both of us wanting to make the other happy. I'm so very happy (adore) someone who is open-ended, flexible, and cares about what I want as much as I care about what they want. A free-flow exchange of care and love. For my ex-husband (and not knocking ISTs here at all--it is just a trait of his), it was in essence "lets do it my way, and if you have another opinion, it's secondary and just doesn't matter." (This is certainly the way I heard it in my head). He was completely unaware of the affect this had on me.

 

[Lauren]

Now I'm confused. I have no idea how Fi makes such decisions. I thought it was a black and white issue with them and that they automatically felt what was right for them or not.

Here is my question: Can Fi make a clear cut decision or not?

I can only say that I can make a clear cut decision, very much so. I may dwell in the feeling for a while, letting it tell me what it needs to, and then I let my Ne tell me what I need to do. Then, I act. It may take a while because I can get very caught up in feelings. Eventually, I need some tangible, outward expression, some way out for all that feeling.

 

[jcloudz]

i love this thread

 

[monocycle]

INFJ: I really need you.
INFP: I'm really really down today as well. Bad day bad day bad day. I'm sorry but I can't right now. I need to be alone.
INFJ: Well you know what? If you were in my position.. I'd be there in a heartbeat.
INFP: I know, I'm sorry. I just can't. Not today.
INFJ: Just don't count on me helping you out when you're the one who needs me.
INFP: ...

I find this to be untrue.
The truth would be if you reversed the two, IMO.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

My first girlfriend was an INFJ who was also a HSP. I was 16 she was 22 and were together three years. We were each others first love and lost our virginity together. The love buzz lasted about a year and a half. Without getting into the details of the nature of the environmental conditioning, parental schema or societal factors each of us brought to the relationship table I can sum up the later portion of our relationship in one word tumultuous. Ok two words, immature .

Imagine two guys going up into the air for a high five and completely missing. This happened frequently and was easy to get over when we were "in love". In the end this is what it was like from my perspective. Nothing I could say or not say would be taken well. Nothing I did or didn't do could go over well. I was constantly under a microscope and walking on eggshells. I was constantly being judged and under those conflict conditions I retreated into myself and that too was judged overtly.

I was initially the person who always wanted to talk things out and compromise and focus our energies on positive things. After the love buzz wore off I had difficulty reestablishing that emotional connection we once had. She simply could not explain her feelings well unless it involved a judgment and a course of action. The intimacy was gone from her. I felt like there was nothing to grab onto emotionally to stabilize the relationship or myself nor to even help her. I need that connection, it strengthens me, it motivates me to continue in the face of adversity, it is the sanctuary without which I feel lost.

This is a quote from a website about the nature the push/pull dynamic. Expectations and Hidden Issues

"Look for the SWAT signs.

Scorekeeping - when one or both of you are keeping track of who does what.

Wheel Spinning - when you talk about the same problem over and over again. When an argument starts with you thinking, "Here we go again."

Avoidance - when one or both of you are avoiding certain topics or levels of intimacy.

Trivial Triggers - trivial issues are blown up out of all proportion. A small event triggers horrendous arguments.

Many hidden issues arise from deeply held expectations.

Expectations build up over a lifetime of experiences. These expectations are based in the past but operate in the present. There are three primary sources for our expectations:
1. Our family of origin,
2. Our previous relationships, and
3. The culture we live in.

Expectations are transmitted both directly by what we hear and indirectly by what we observe. A hidden issue can't get triggered in the first place unless an expectation is violated. Studies show that it's more likely that relationships will develop problems when expectations are unreasonable. Conflicts caused by unexpressed expectations are very common and unmet expectations can lead to great disappointment and frustration in your relationship. One great clue to expectations is disappointment. It's a good habit to stop a minute when you're disappointed and ask yourself what you expected. Doing this can help you to become aware of the expectations that may be unconsciously affecting your relationship.

Be reasonable in what you expect. Be clear about what you expect. Unless you make your expectations clear, you'll have trouble working as a team. You can't work from any kind of shared perspective if you don't share your perspective."

Couple her strong push/pull tendencies with her HSP personality and a sensitive INFP and you can imagine the conflict. Granted, I was young and had not developed an emotional shield for specific use in a romantic relationship. Additionally my perceptions were flawed as to the nature of her judgements.

Advise for an INFJ:

1) “It is not what you say that matters but the manner in which you say it; there lies the secret of the ages.” ~ William Carlos Williams

You can be as judgmental as you want with me, if you word it right I will not only notice this (Fi) and think its endearing you are doing so but it is highly effective at 'swaying" me. I also need time to digest this information. There is nothing I abhor more than someone who is not only judgmental and argumentative but expectant that I change my mind on the spot simply because 1 person came along and felt the need to point things out and then feel the need to change me. This to me is the nature of the conflict between the types. How the INFJ expresses their judgments and expectations and how the INFP perceives it and deals with it.


2) “I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” ~ Maya Angelou

This is true for most people, but more so to these two types. Instead of focusing on the rightness/wrongness of this quote assume it is very much real in an INFP. This is very addressable however, prod them to talk about it after a short time has passed, and then whatever you do DON'T judge them for having done so. (really long article on emotional validation Validation) An INFP can and will forgive almost anything if given enough time and validation.

I wanted to post more, including an advise part for INFP's but real life barges in on my thought process and I've lost the flow. Perhaps later on.

 

[Kastor]

I don't think I know or met any INFJs, but I think I'd probably drive them crazy with my lack of seeing tasks/projects to the end, how I often change plans (nothing is ever really certain for me), the chaos that is my room and work station, preffering to do things my own way instead of following particular instructions, and maybe just taking some things too lightly. INFJs might bother me by being too tense or trivial, obsessing over meticulous things, leaving decisions at just that, and not straying too far off the beaten path. But like I said, I don't think I've ever met one, so these assumptions could be very wrong.

This reminds me of an instance with a J friend of mine (not INFJ though).
We were playing Canasta with another friend of ours (ENFP) and I had to deal the cards. I started counting them off, dealing to the right because it was just easier to do from where I was sitting. Before I know it, my J friend is jumping my ass for not dealing the 'correct' way, which is to the left.

CJ: 'No, you have to deal to the left.'
Me: 'Why does it matter?'
CJ: 'I've been in tournaments, that's just how it's done.'
Me: 'But we're just playing casually, so does it really matter? It's just easier for me to deal right from where I'm sitting...'
CJ: 'That's just the right way to play!'
Caroline: 'Who gives a shit, CJ? Let's just play!'
CJ: 'But it's not the right way... -pouts-'

God x__x;;

 

[HollyGolightly]

My best friend in the whole world is an INFP. She also happens to be my sister
I love how the dynamic works. I feel I can be myself. I love how we interact, there are a lot of silences but they are never awkward as we usually have an idea of what the other one is thinking so we don't feel the need to voice it Then there are sudden bursts of deep conversation. It's a weird relationship, as we are both rather strange individuals, but it works.

We seldom argue but when we do it's usually because I'm being difficult. I'm very private and sometimes rather aloof. I become so secretive that I can come across as cold and I will shut everyone out. I used to take it out on her as I had so much pain inside me and it would come out in little bursts and it would be directed at her. I didn't mean it, but I was wrong to do that. She would be greatly upset at my unfairness and would just say one or two things but they would have a real impact. Then she would get it out of me, and I'd tell her what was bothering me and apologise profusely for being such a bitch. She would have a calming affect on me and be really supportive.

I'm very structured and determined. I see things through to the end. She's apathetic and lazy...well it appears that way to me because of my nature. I feel I have to give her a kick up the arse to get moving. This sometimes annoys her but it can also be very good for her.

I'm not as laid back as she is so she has to calm me down. I get stressed and uptight and she acts as my chill pill

She's very agreeable and conflict avoidant. If I piss her off she doesn't really raise the issue so sometimes problems are just put on the shelf. I usually being stuff up and although I don't want to start an argument (I hate conflict too) I think she sometimes feels I am.

She hates critisism. Even the constructive kind. It really offends her so I have to be careful. And of course I always want to help so sometimes I can't resist pointing out ways she can improve. She hates me for that ;P

I'm extremely protective. People often take advantage of her good nature, which pisses me off. There have been so many times I've got into an argument with someone who has treated her like shit. I fly into such a rage...it's totally out of character. NOBODY MESSES WITH MY SISTER. I think sometimes she feels I go overboard as usually I am more upset by the situation than she is.

I'm kinda bossy Sometimes she likes this as she likes to go with the flow. But sometimes I annoy her, as I think I know best and I can be a little unfair sometimes. She hates unfairness, it's probably her pet peeve.

We have the same sense of humour. We laugh for hours about things. I can always cheer her up and she me as we have many inside jokes
We get on pretty well overall. I know people throw the term best friend around a lot, but she really is my best friend. And she always will be

 

[Tantive]

Lots of great stuff

I didn't read the entire article yet you linked, but at the bottom is what struck me at home the most. Beautifully worded, the things I felt and suffered. (I'm an INFP only child to an INFJ mother)

Will You Please Just Listen?
A Child's Plea to Adults

When I ask you to listen and you start giving advice, you have not done what I have asked.

When I ask you to listen and you start telling me why I shouldn't feel the way I do, you are invalidating my feelings.

When I ask you to listen and you start trying to solve my problems, I feel underestimated.

When I ask you to listen, it does not mean I am helpless. I may be faltering, depressed or discouraged, but I am not helpless.

When I ask you to listen and you do things which I can and need to do for myself, you hurt my self-esteem.

But when you accept the way I feel, then I don't need to spend time and energy trying to defend myself or convince you, and I can focus on figuring out why I feel the way I feel and what to do about it.

And when I do that, I don't need advice, just support, trust, and encouragement.

Please remember that what you think are irrational feelings always make sense if you take time to listen and understand me.

 

[sweavo]

One thing I was just thinking about. My INFP friend doesn't seem to need interactions with someone to solve a problem as long as she has resolved it within herself. I, on the other hand, need the closure/input from the other person involved to feel that things are resolved. Maybe the significant factor is that Fe looks to others to find the answer and Fi looks to find the answer within itself.

This is why INFJs feel the need to try to help along those close to them that are in distress and is why they find it painful to see them floundering and seemingly doing nothing. It's because they feel there is an external solution and they also believe that talking about it will help the answer take shape. To an INFP this is pushy and ineffectual because no one can see inside them or truly understand their unique person/situation and therefore no one except themselves can really offer the answer.

On the other hand, INFPs tend to leave a person to their own devices and assume that they need to find the answer within themselves for it to really be solved. To an INFJ, this seems like indifference or a lack of care. They feel abandoned. Their thought process needs to be stimulated to some extent by discussing it with others. That's when their own thoughts and feelings take a tangible form that they can actually touch and grab onto. (Without that, they can see those thoughts or feelings, but they are fuzzy and they can't grab hold of them).

I'm not sure if this is expressed very clearly, or if it is something that others can identify with, but I think it may be the cause of some of the misunderstandings I feel with INFPs. They have a hard time seeing why I can't just let something go that's bothering me if I know what the probable reason is and I can't do anything about it to fix it. They find it much easier to let go, as long as it's found resolution within themselves. For me though, I need that last bit of interaction to really lay the whole thing to rest and realize that nothing can be done to fix what's wrong.

Hi all, new here. Reading around to try to better communicate with an INFJ friend of mine. This post is very clear to me and offers some good hope. It really examplifies our specific difficulty. In situations where one or other of us is insecure, we find that our emotional tokens have no value on the receiving end, as it were. This illustration above offers me an explanation why. Thanks for posting it!

Most recently, my friend was hinting that he wanted some affirmation. I was running scared of getting mired in miscommunication, so decided simply to leave the problem for him to sort out since it was, in my perception, entirely generated by him. A week or so later we saw each other and he presented me with a "peace offering" (his words). Of course, to my INFPness this was received as "I have done some internal processing and we're cool." Having read this thread, I now think really it was more a "We need to establish whether we are going to act as friends or enemies this evening, and I have selected friends."

Therefore it was a surprise to me when, a couple days later, my friend brought up the issue over which we had tension. But it's all good since it's brought me here! After spending an hour trying to translate my feelings in P-language into J-language, I've sent an email that I hope will connect.

 

[Fidelia]

I'm glad if that's helpful!

For me, I also find that conversation/interaction stimulates a thought process (which may be negative or positive). It's like there's a delayed reaction to most interactions I have with people. That can be frustrating to a person when they see seemingly unconnected behaviour with the present interaction (either warmer or cooler). In the INFJs person's mind though, it is just the natural response to the last interaction and seems perfectly normal.

During the intervening time, I have usually generated several possibilities for why the person has acted as they did. I need further conversation or interaction to know if I am correct or out to lunch. It either requires further thought then, or if my thoughts were correct, it can be put to rest completely and I will have decided on a course of action.

Unfortunately, this seems to the other person like I am being nitpicky, oversensitive, or holding onto things for far too long that they figure I should be able to get over sooner. I find this especially annoys T types, followed by INFPs.

This need for reflection also is a good reason why it is not wise to rush INFJs on coming to a conclusion/decision/resolution before they have all the loose ends tied up. Otherwise it will continue getting revisited until they are satisfied. That really blindsides the other party involved because they thought they had gotten everything straightened out and decided. It usually results in a bad reaction from the other party which makes the INFJ feel rejected/angry/hurt and sparks another spate of action/reaction/thought.

 

[sweavo]

Heh it's great to hear all this, fidelia. I just hope it applies in my/my friend's case!

Yu say

During the intervening time, I have usually generated several possibilities for why the person has acted as they did. I need further conversation or interaction to know if I am correct or out to lunch. It either requires further thought then, or if my thoughts were correct, it can be put to rest completely and I will have decided on a course of action.

This particulary chimes with me. You even sounded like my friend in my head as I read it! As an INFP my creed is "there are no final answers" so I generate a bunch of possibilities like you, but then I am content to leave them all floating around in my head. I don't need to select one before "moving forward". Time and my future experiences will show which of the models is most suitable. I can see now why that would drive my INFJ friend nuts.

 

[Fidelia]

It's sort of like having a drawer full of assorted junk that it is time to deal with. Some of the items are easy to decide where they belong - garbage, bathroom cabinet, sock drawer etc. Others though require other people to help with making that decision. Sometimes you just want to get done with the job rather than have a bunch of miscellaneous items floating around waiting...to an INFJ, the other philosophy is sort of like saying, "Well, I'll save all of these things and maybe one day, the use for them will become apparent", despite having limited space in which to store them.

 

[sweavo]

It's sort of like having a drawer full of assorted junk that it is time to deal with. Some of the items are easy to decide where they belong - garbage, bathroom cabinet, sock drawer etc. Others though require other people to help with making that decision. Sometimes you just want to get done with the job rather than have a bunch of miscellaneous items floating around waiting...to an INFJ, the other philosophy is sort of like saying, "Well, I'll save all of these things and maybe one day, the use for them will become apparent", despite having limited space in which to store them.

Thanks, that's made it clear to me.

 

[Serafina]

Great thread. I just got done reading the whole thing. Personally, I love both INFJ's and INFP's. I wish I could understand you INFP's better, though. I have matured to the point that I no longer give unsolicited advice or try to fix people (I have faith that if you love people they will fix themselves), but I still feel like I give off that vibe to INFP's like I am looking over their shoulder.. watching for any mistakes. It's not that I am doing that... I enjoy your wacky world. In my dreams your dreams come true. But somehow there is a feeling that comes from the INFP like they are afraid of me suffocating them. And then when they don't follow through I feel rejected.

I like the way you INFP's think and I can even get down with the whole coming and going as you please because I can be a flake, too, and recognize that a relationship should simply feel good. Asking an INFP to fulfill certain needs I have would be like asking for a co-dependent relationship. What attracts me to INFP is the possibility of the two of us being together yet independent. But it makes it hard when I don't know where I stand with you. If I know you care for me and want me in your life then I am more than willing to give you your space... but when I am not sure of your feelings for me because you vanish then reappear it makes me feel insecure. If you would only say, "hey, this is how I am feeling today but I care for you and will call or text when I am feeling in the mood." I would be fine. I wouldn't be left feeling like I did some awful thing to make you hate me. While I understand how you feel intuitively (trust me I could feel those vibes even if you were on the moon) I cannot understand logically unless you tell me verbally. How do any of you ever get married and have children..? What I mean is do you ever pursue a person you care for? Or are you willing let love go if that person doesn't pursue you? Or does INFP just not give a shit about me. Or maybe, just maybe.. I am not seeing things the way you see them....

What would be the best way to reach an INFP who has left you alone to sort things out? Should I be open and honest about my feelings without making demands or judging? Because really all I want to know is that you care and will be my friend. I don't even want to bring up the old situation. But I feel like your Fi comes across as controlling situations by just getting up and leaving and any request I make to affirm my feelings is taken as an attempt to suffocate you. So you let me down just so my expectations don't get too high. Well, at that point the relationship breaks down, too, because it is impossible to have trust with someone who won't communicate with you.

As an INFP, would you be willing to mature enough to meet us INFJ's half way? I love INFP's... I find your shyness, humor, and souls to be very comforting. I feel like a little child when I am with an INFP but it hurts to be treated like a pariah whenever I have a need that falls outside of your comfort zone. the only people I feel I can truly open up to and be vulnerable with are INFP's. I love that about you. I can show you my boo-boo's and you make me feel protected and cared for and then we go roll around in the sand box on the playground. But as soon as I tell you I really need you at my birthday party you run and hide and act as if you are mad at me. So I slam the door in defense and feel like an awful person for doing so.

 

[Serafina]

I just want to add that I have noticed that INFP tend to voice their faults at the beginning of a relationship. Perhaps I just don't listen. Looking back I can think of many INFP's I know saying, "oh I am no fun." or "I just don't like talking on the phone." I guess us J types have to learn to take that at face value and avoid thinking that somehow the INFP will behave differently for us. Because honestly I can see where INFP feel like, "what the hell, if you really cared for me then you wouldn't constantly be trying to make me prove my affection for you by going outside my comfort zone!" Honestly, if someone was always doing that to me I wouldn't want to hang out with them either.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, that's true. Somehow because I don't share that kind of thing early on, I tend to assume that they are just being overly hard on themselves, rather than that they are presenting useful information that I need to be aware of.

 

[Serafina]

I agree fidelia.. It's funny, because as an INFJ we really want someone we can share our inner selves with but if we wait until too late the chance may pass us by. Sometimes we just have to take a chance and not wait for things to be perfect... we have to learn to be open to possibilities that don't fit into our linear models.

And the fact is that they ARE too hard on themselves. Something else he told me was that he could be a jerk at times. Well that put me on guard... thinking, "oh at any minute he is going to be a jerk." So when he did something I perceived as jerky I called him a jerk and then he vanishes... thinking to himself.. "see, I really am a jerk. All these horrible things I think about myself are true." When it's possible he didn't even mean it in a jerky way. I think where all people go wrong (present company included) is having the expectation that other people think and feel the way we do. It is especially difficult as an INFJ because we are so in tune with the emotions of others. But being an empath is not the same as reading minds. I can feel your feelings but not hear your thoughts.

 

[Lily flower]

INFJ's can be blunt and INFP's can get their feelings hurt easily. Sometimes that's a difficult combo.