Incontrovertable proof of an afterlife?

[Lark]

What difference would this make to the world? Either as proof of the many worlds theory and quantum immortality or traditional religions "personal/individual soul/psyche/self survival"?

Would it be for the good or ill of humankind?

 

[Fluffywolf]

What difference would this make to the world? Either as proof of the many worlds theory and quantum immortality or traditional religions "personal/individual soul/psyche/self survival"?

Would it be for the good or ill of humankind?

Well, you'd think the logical course of action would be celebration and unification, but...

...Thinking about the horseshoe analogy I mentioned in a thread concerning religion, there's going to be some issues.

For me personally it wouldn't change anything. Well, that is assuming it doesn't require something of me I don't already do. If it does, then it depends on what's required and wether or not I'm willing to accept that.

But someone who has put their faith in something with utter devotion, only to find out, without question, that their faith was wrong? They're going to have serious issues adjusting.


It's probably only the initial shock that's troublesome though, once things have settled I can see people adjusting just fine for the most part with few exceptions.

Oh and unification wouldn't happen overnight either of course. But feasible within a couple of generations probably. With no reason to hate each other based on their beliefs, it does take away some of the ammunition people have when taking action.


The truth is it's an impossibility unfortunately, the nature of belief can not allow for irrafutable proof to undo that belief, but that's why it's in the philosophy section I assume.

 

[Cellmold]

6) Would it create more strategic suicides?

Although in this scenario, do we know what the afterlife is definitely like? Is it based on moral dichotomy as in most interpretations of Christianity?

There are so many questions that I have to stop myself from making 3-4 posts and initially I resisted definitions of a particular afterlife.

However I don't think you can ask this question without attempting to define the afterlife.

So i'm assuming/defining several things:

1) The afterlife is a paradise that we can cope with and somehow it will cope with our subjective interpretations of personal paradise.
2) It will have a moral dichotomy because otherwise we are straight on the road to a literal nihilism & self-destruction from lack of consequence.
3) I think suicide needs considering in terms of which morality of afterlife it sends you to; if 'bad' then can lead to coddled dispondency and lack of risk taking which in turn leads to stagnation making this life one of waiting to escape and with that it destroys all intellectual pursuit (who needs to understand the universe when there is something infinitely better right after living briefly in it). If 'good' or neutral then I think it might lead to an excess of suicide from even more risk taking and those who don't want to live in the misery of this existence (see 1).

I think if you design it rigidly and unimaginatively (ok I'm really just strapped for time and I cannot write down all my thoughts before I go to bed and have to be up again for work) as I have done here you might end up with a more relaxed populous depending on 1 & 3. 2 allegedly keeps us on the straight and narrow but that depends on what 2 actually consists of.

3 causes the huge issue of either diminishing the existing 'lived' world (reiterating here) in favour of rushing through or causing a slow death of waiting for the incontrovertably better existence: depending on the truth of 1. If 2 proves untrue then neither 3 nor 1 can follow with no paradise in which morality can be dichotomised.

4) This is all my deliberate specifics and so doesn't make any sense except as a self-contained tautology with all the logical flaws I'm sure I've made/angles not fully considered due to time constraints.

4 brings us then to:

5) What is the afterlife like? < Return to start of post. (see 6)

There is actually a 7) but it's very odd and involves a lot of quantum.

 

[Qlip]

The first response would be awe and wonder and philosophical questions.
The second response would be, what kind of resources does it have and can we invade it and claim it for our nation state? How much do those people in that place now owe due to broken contracts with no explicit death clause? Can it support a McDonalds franchise?

 

[jcloudz]

Fear. Distrust of human nature. We want to posses an control things.

 

[Abendrot]

On a related note, here is a pretty compelling argument that there is no afterlife:

Change to the structure of the brain (via brain damage) have been known to permanently alter the personality. Change to the personality has also been demonstrated in instanes where there is a temporary change in the function of the brain (eg. Due to the influence of drugs).

What this means is that the personality is something produced by the brain, and not something which is separate from it. And so, we can expect that if the brain is destroyed, the personality must also be destroyed.
The same argument can also be made for other attributes, such as memory and intelligence.

The conclusion is that either A) there is no immortal and immutable "soul", or B) if there is a soul which survives the destruction of the brain, it cannot contain anything of the mind or personality, intelligence or memory.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

Uh, crack a book. There have been, and are, plenty of cultures who believed/believe wholeheartedly in an afterlife, so if you want to know what the effects of believing in an afterlife are on human behavior, you've got a pretty easy task. But here, I'll help you out a little ...

Egyptians: built giant pyramids (if they could afford them) full of stuff and booby traps.

Lots of Mesopotamia peeps: killed wives and servants of the deceased lord and tossed them into the grave with him.

Medieval peeps: paid extra money to the church to get their loved ones out of that between life and afterlife place.

Lots of other people: sacrifices sacrifices sacrifices!

Lots of other people: "Must be super super nice so I can get to heaven!"

Christians: "no guilt in life, no fear in death ..." *proceeds to be very very scared of death*

Minority (is denominations the right word?) of Islam: terrorism.

Other people: self denial.

Everyone else: acts more or less the same.

 

[Lark]

On a related note, here is a pretty compelling argument that there is no afterlife:

Change to the structure of the brain (via brain damage) have been known to permanently alter the personality. Change to the personality has also been demonstrated in instanes where there is a temporary change in the function of the brain (eg. Due to the influence of drugs).

What this means is that the personality is something produced by the brain, and not something which is separate from it. And so, we can expect that if the brain is destroyed, the personality must also be destroyed.
The same argument can also be made for other attributes, such as memory and intelligence.

The conclusion is that either A) there is no immortal and immutable "soul", or B) if there is a soul which survives the destruction of the brain, it cannot contain anything of the mind or personality, intelligence or memory.

Off topic.

 

[Lark]

Uh, crack a book. There have been, and are, plenty of cultures who believed/believe wholeheartedly in an afterlife, so if you want to know what the effects of believing in an afterlife are on human behavior, you've got a pretty easy task. But here, I'll help you out a little ...

Egyptians: built giant pyramids (if they could afford them) full of stuff and booby traps.

Lots of Mesopotamia peeps: killed wives and servants of the deceased lord and tossed them into the grave with him.

Medieval peeps: paid extra money to the church to get their loved ones out of that between life and afterlife place.

Lots of other people: sacrifices sacrifices sacrifices!

Lots of other people: "Must be super super nice so I can get to heaven!"

Christians: "no guilt in life, no fear in death ..." *proceeds to be very very scared of death*

Minority (is denominations the right word?) of Islam: terrorism.

Other people: self denial.

Everyone else: acts more or less the same.

And what're your views on multiple worlds theory or quantum immortality?

Sorry to spoil your juvenile atheist riff there.

 

[Abendrot]

Off topic.

Don't care.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

And what're your views on multiple worlds theory or quantum immortality?

Sorry to spoil your juvenile atheist riff there.

Uh, I'm actually a Christian and I'll answer that when I get on my computer ...

 

[Abendrot]

Lots of Mesopotamia peeps: killed wives and servants of the deceased lord and tossed them into the grave with him.

Medieval peeps: paid extra money to the church to get their loved ones out of that between life and afterlife place.

Lots of other people: sacrifices sacrifices sacrifices!

Lots of other people: "Must be super super nice so I can get to heaven!"

Actually, between the Mesopotamians and Medieval Peeps:

The Jews did not initially believe in life after death, and thought that God would reward virtue during life.
Then came the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV of the Seleucid empire around 2nd century BC, in which the most virtuous and devout Jews met horrible ends at the hands of their oppressors. The Jews saw that the virtuous were not rewarded in life, and began hoping that maybe God will reward the virtuous in the next life. This wishful thinking was later inherited by Christianity, which basically began a progressive sect of Judaism.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

Actually, between the Mesopotamians and Medieval Peeps:

The Jews did not initially believe in life after death, and thought that God would reward virtue during life.
Then came the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV of the Seleucid empire around 2nd century BC, in which the most virtuous and devout Jews met horrible ends at the hands of their oppressors. The Jews saw that the virtuous were not rewarded in life, and began hoping that maybe God will reward the virtuous in the next life. This wishful thinking was later inherited by Christianity, which basically began a progressive sect of Judaism.

I'm sorry, I'm confused ... So are you saying that this happened in the time between the Mesoptamia beliefs I was referencing and certain forms of Medieval Christianity? But that is interesting and thinking back over the Old Testament scriptures it actually makes sense that Jews believed in rewards during life instead of in the afterlife ... I don't think I can remember any Old-Testament afterlife references tbh and most of the "God rewards the faithful" type stuff seemed to imply material rewards. I'd have to look into it more closely, though.

 

[Abendrot]

I'm sorry, I'm confused ... So are you saying that this happened in the time between the Mesoptamia beliefs I was referencing and certain forms of Medieval Christianity? But that is interesting and thinking back over the Old Testament scriptures it actually makes sense that Jews believed in rewards during life instead of in the afterlife ... I don't think I can remember any Old-Testament afterlife references tbh and most of the "God rewards the faithful" type stuff seemed to imply material rewards. I'd have to look into it more closely, though.

Sorta. This happened around 2nd or 3rd century BC. Mesopotamia was still around, but the Roman Empire and Christianity was still in the future at this point. In those ancient times, Jewish beliefs about the afterlife were unclear. Some Jews did indeed believe in an afterlife, a place called Sheol, inhabited by the shades (somewhat similar to Hades), where all the dead went, regardless of their virtue.

However, the concept of an afterlife where the virtuous are rewarded (or the vile punished) was mostly catalyzed by the persecutions I mentioned.
Jewish teachings indeed focus on the present material world, with only vague mention of an afterlife. Even now, I believe the Jews have not reached a consensus regarding the nature of the afterlife.

Here's an article which summarizes: What is the Jewish afterlife like? - Jewish World Features - Haaretz - Israel News | Haaretz.com

 

[Lark]

Don't care.

Good to know. I'll ignore your posts.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I thought this thread was not about people absolutely believing in the afterlife, but about the consequences of having actual empyrical proof of an afterlife and what effect that would have on the general population should the population allow the evidence to stand without using the "God did it. Mysterious ways." arguement.

We know so much about the natural process of life nowadays that it is fair to say there is no afterlife. And we all know what consequence that realization had on society.

So I'll have to revise my earlier statement. I think the result of such news would do much less than it should do.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

Sorta. This happened around 2nd or 3rd century BC. Mesopotamia was still around, but the Roman Empire and Christianity was still in the future at this point. In those ancient times, Jewish beliefs about the afterlife were unclear. Some Jews did indeed believe in an afterlife, a place called Sheol, inhabited by the shades (somewhat similar to Hades), where all the dead went, regardless of their virtue.

However, the concept of an afterlife where the virtuous are rewarded (or the vile punished) was mostly catalyzed by the persecutions I mentioned.
Jewish teachings indeed focus on the present material world, with only vague mention of an afterlife. Even now, I believe the Jews have not reached a consensus regarding the nature of the afterlife.

Here's an article which summarizes: What is the Jewish afterlife like? - Jewish World Features - Haaretz - Israel News | Haaretz.com

Oh, okay, good to know! Thank you! Alas, I could not read the article as it required a subscription, but I appreciate you providing me with it. xD I asked a Bible-y friend about it though and she knows some good stuff. *nods*

 

[Abendrot]

Oh, okay, good to know! Thank you! Alas, I could not read the article as it required a subscription, but I appreciate you providing me with it. xD I asked a Bible-y friend about it though and she knows some good stuff. *nods*

Np. Strange, I managed to read it without a subscription.

 

[Typh0n]

I thought this thread was not about people absolutely believing in the afterlife, but about the consequences of having actual empyrical proof of an afterlife and what effect that would have on the general population should the population allow the evidence to stand without using the "God did it. Mysterious ways." arguement.

I don't think empirical evidence counts as "incontravertable proof" of anything.

 

[Carpe Vinum]

What difference would this make to the world? Either as proof of the many worlds theory and quantum immortality or traditional religions "personal/individual soul/psyche/self survival"?

Would it be for the good or ill of humankind?

Intriguing.

I think the answer depends on how much we would know about said afterlife. If we only knew that it existed (and nothing else), I imagine that much would stay the same. We would still argue over whose ideas about the afterlife are correct, just like we do now.

I'm sure it would change many people on a personal level, though. Perhaps some would be more willing to give their lives to a cause if they knew their existence would continue after death. And for some it wouldn't change anything. That fear of the unknown would still be there.