I don't love anything... thus, nothing makes sense.

[Athenian200]

I've been taking my CCNA classes, but it doesn't seem to be having the desired effect. Now I just feel like I'm stuck in the past, pouring over meaningless technical details for no apparent reason. I once found this stuff interesting, but it seems far more boring than it once did.

That brings me to my topic. Whenever I talk to my mother or other family members about my situation, or look for resources on what I'm supposed to do, I get an answer that's extremely useless for me. They always try to figure out what I love, what I'm passionate about, so that I can base a plan on it.

But the problem is, I'm not actually passionate about anything, and I don't really want "a future" or anything like that. So it's really hard to make plans.

If I force myself to focus on what I want, all that I can come up with is that I want to keep what I have now on the Internet, and perhaps extend it into the real world. Basically, I just want to talk to people and share ideas and opinions with them. The problem is that most people want that, AND something else that's a lot bigger.

Furthermore, it seems like everything is set up for people who want something very badly and are so hungry for it that they'll keep ramming their heads into it until they get through. It's extremely hard for me to cope with such a world when I can't match the energy levels of such people. I don't have some huge inner drive like wanting a family, wanting to be recognized, wanting to prove someone wrong, a dream I want fulfilled, or anything like that that compels me to consistently pursue something with insane vigor.

All that I want is to have a job so I can survive on my own and have an opportunity to save money. No one seems capable of understanding that, and they constantly try to divine some bigger motive, call me to something higher that I don't care about or understand.

I suppose the problem with this is, that it seems that given my fairly minimalist goals... that is, I'd be willing to literally live in a cheap apartment, sleep on the floor, drink water out of my hands, and eat cat food... that I should be able to get SOMETHING without having to ram my head into a wall like an idiot continually, but it seems like no one understands that that's all I'm asking for, and keep trying to ram it down my throat that I need to aim high, right after telling me that there's competition, which makes absolutely no sense... why I would I aim high if there's too much competition? There's a general expectation and desire for people who have bigger motivations, and no one understands what to do with someone who doesn't feel strongly about anything.

I guess the question is... how exactly am I supposed to cope with the complex, modern social world if I can't understand the way it's set up because I'm not as passionate or driven to succeed or be a part of something as the people who built it? I think I would honestly prefer being told what to do to all this... freedom. Freedom demands a lot of things that I don't have in me. I just don't feel like I'm built that way. Why can't they just assign me a clear, specific task and threaten me with consequences if I don't succeed like they did in high school, rather than giving me all this vague nonsense about "will," "freedom," "decision," "potential," "success," and "future"? I don't know what to do with any of that stuff, it doesn't make any sense. Why can't they tell me anything that makes sense, I don't want to explore my potential, decide anything, or succeed. I just want to be told what to do so I won't have to think. I'm so tired of thinking. I think, and think, and think, and the more I do, the more confused I get.

Anyone else ever feel this way?

 

[Skyward]

I do too.

I don't have singular obsessions, they seem to change by the day, cycling in and out. I think I'm most fit for some coffeehouse job. I really think it would be my kind of job, anyway. I get coffee and handle a substance that isn't greasy and smells aweful like fastfood. I love the smell of coffee. I would have this job and work on my hobbies.

I'm a Christian from birth and that will always be a part of my life. Having a high management job that requires me to break my morals and keep me too busy and tired to attend church is the exact opposite of what I want and need.

CEOs drink coffee, the average man drinks coffee, coffe is what lubricates the gears of the world. Why not be the greasemonkey?

 

[Phantonym]

Athenian, you are my long lost twin

I feel like that all the time and I have been for as long as I can remember. "Ambition" and "potential" equal curse words in my mind.

I can especially relate to what you said here:

I don't have some huge inner drive like wanting a family, wanting to be recognized, wanting to prove someone wrong, a dream I want fulfilled, or anything like that that compels me to consistently pursue something with insane vigor.

All that I want is to have a job so I can survive on my own and have an opportunity to save money. No one seems capable of understanding that, and they constantly try to divine some bigger motive, call me to something higher that I don't care about or understand.

I've never had people telling me straight up that I should have high ambitions like everybody else but there's this silent understanding that everybody must be like that. As a result, I'm constantly feeling inferior because of that. It's such a shame that by not being a "success" in a way that the majority seems to expect from you is deemed as a failure. But at the same time, you're expected to be an independent individual. I don't see something like this as being independent.

 

[Athenian200]

Yeah, Sky is Blue, I know about that... but that pressure is kind of minor. I mean, you already have a job, right? I could shrug that off pretty easily if they would just let me do something simple rather than placing huge demands me before being willing to give me the crumbs. It's like they only want to offer you everything, or nothing. It's very hard to find someone willing to help me find just what I need now, and not try to force me to care about something I don't care about.

You wouldn't believe what my parents have suggested, though. They actually think (despite having shown no interest in the opposite sex) that I should marry some girl who wants to take care of me, because my lack of ambition makes me seem so helpless that they think I can't function in public society, and that I need someone smarter than me to take care of me who will let me do the kind of indoor tasks I'm accustomed to. I don't know what's gotten into them... I think they're just going a little crazy because I'm struggling, floundering, and getting confused so much.

 

[Usehername]

Athenian, you fit some of the symptoms of depression (no passion/no energy/not loving anything...). Which doesn't mean you are depressed, I'm just pointing it out in case you haven't considered it.

I'm going to call this out one more time, not in any attempt to bash it over your head but because I think it's of utmost importance. Until you leave your home and make a RL friend, until you find a club or organization or workplace to tie into, nothing is going to change. You cannot hide your life away in your home and only socialize with your parents IRL.

You have to go out in the world and be, you have to go out and do, you have to go out and take action and knock some stuff of the list that you don't enjoy (learning through trial and error) before you wander around enough to find your place.

There are billions of people in this world. Some of them share your interests that you don't even know exist yet because you haven't ventured out and waded through things to find where a lot of your interests lie.

I just don't think it's fair to ask people to give their opinions unless you're upfront about the fact that you aren't taking any action to do anything with your life and go and try stuff out. This is what people do to find what they're passionate about, Ath.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Athenian do you think that this is a consequence of Ni at work and weak Fi ?

 

[Athenian200]

Athenian, you fit some of the symptoms of depression (no passion/no energy/not loving anything...). Which doesn't mean you are depressed, I'm just pointing it out in case you haven't considered it.

I'm going to call this out one more time, not in any attempt to bash it over your head but because I think it's of utmost importance. Until you leave your home and make a RL friend, until you find a club or organization or workplace to tie into, nothing is going to change. You cannot hide your life away in your home and only socialize with your parents IRL.

You have to go out in the world and be, you have to go out and do, you have to go out and take action and knock some stuff of the list that you don't enjoy (learning through trial and error) before you wander around enough to find your place.

There are billions of people in this world. Some of them share your interests that you don't even know exist yet because you haven't ventured out and waded through things to find where a lot of your interests lie.

I just don't think it's fair to ask people to give their opinions unless you're upfront about the fact that you aren't taking any action to do anything with your life and go and try stuff out. This is what people do to find what they're passionate about, Ath.

I'm not the sort of person who needs to learn through trial and error. I don't do that, I'm not a gambler.

And I don't want to be highly visible and involved with people at this stage. I'm genuinely not comfortable with that.

I have no wish to be, and I have no wish to do. I just want to survive. That's it.

Athenian do you think that this is a consequence of Ni at work and weak Fi ?

Yes. Fi is my weakest function. I see it as silly.

 

[Totenkindly]

Athenian do you think that this is a consequence of Ni at work and weak Fi ?

I think that, plus a focus on Ti. A lot of what Athenian says, I've experienced... it's the sort of rationalizing through everything and being able to frame the situation very well but not reach any answer on how to get beyond it. I think Ath has grown to rely on the Introverted aspects (Ni + Ti) simply because it was the only productive outlet he had for so long, it seems typical for some other Introverted types to do as well.

That's the problem with using Ti to try to resolve issues that are not based on understanding a situation perfectly but that need to be proactively engaged in order to be resolved. I think UHN's advice was excellent; at some point, you have to stop trying to frame the situation and actually take active steps. It's like trying to decide where you want to go, when you have no feeling about it, by sitting around and imagining where you want to go; sometimes you have to get in the car and just drive, and this will open up opportunities to engage and go places that were not evident when you were sitting inside and imagining what to do.

That brings me to my topic. Whenever I talk to my mother or other family members about my situation, or look for resources on what I'm supposed to do, I get an answer that's extremely useless for me. They always try to figure out what I love, what I'm passionate about, so that I can base a plan on it.

It's a natural response, and they are just trying to be helpful. That solution works for some people, and it has become the conventional wisdom ("Do what you love") in a culture where people often get detached from their passions and need to reconnect with the obvious.

But the problem is, I'm not actually passionate about anything, and I don't really want "a future" or anything like that. So it's really hard to make plans.

I never had many passions either. When I tried to drive myself by my passions, I did nothing. I ended up determining my passions by what I was I good at, then trying to follow them, but that burned out too.

If I force myself to focus on what I want, all that I can come up with is that I want to keep what I have now on the Internet, and perhaps extend it into the real world. Basically, I just want to talk to people and share ideas and opinions with them. The problem is that most people want that, AND something else that's a lot bigger.

Frankly, it's your life. As long as you feel happy and productive and are contributing in your own way, the specifics don't matter. You will sacrifice some of the conveniences of the culture by going your own route, but if you're happy living that style of existence, what does it matter?

It is more a sense of just making sure you're not selling yourself out due to fear, or inconvenience, or laziness, or lack of vision. As long as what you choose actually aligns with the things that matter to you, then you're good. Right now it sounds like your ability to connect with others is all you really care about, and otherwise you're willing to live without a lot. Modern culture has many boons but is also a trap -- feeling compelled to achieve certain things and bring in the money to provide for a bunch of manufactured needs; if you can escape the trap, that's not a bad thing.

Furthermore, it seems like everything is set up for people who want something very badly and are so hungry for it that they'll keep ramming their heads into it until they get through. It's extremely hard for me to cope with such a world when I can't match the energy levels of such people. I don't have some huge inner drive like wanting a family, wanting to be recognized, wanting to prove someone wrong, a dream I want fulfilled, or anything like that that compels me to consistently pursue something with insane vigor.

it does seem illogical to compete with people who are more committed and ruthless than you can be in pursuit of the same goals. it seems like a bad expenditure of energy. It's just that you shouldn't that determine what goals you choose to pursue, otherwise you will driven by other people.

All that I want is to have a job so I can survive on my own and have an opportunity to save money. No one seems capable of understanding that, and they constantly try to divine some bigger motive, call me to something higher that I don't care about or understand.

That's a goal to start with. maybe as you enter the world, you'll see more possibilities, meet new people, and suddenly a new goal will become clear to you. Like UHN said, "engage."

[they tell me] I need to aim high, right after telling me that there's competition, which makes absolutely no sense... why I would I aim high if there's too much competition? There's a general expectation and desire for people who have bigger motivations, and no one understands what to do with someone who doesn't feel strongly about anything.

Well, yeah. You have to learn to accept their opinions with grace, then lay them aside if they are inapplicable to what you feel you want in life ... or don't want. Don't let them bully or shame you into submission, but there's no harm in listening and understanding they are doing their best to help but just might be woefully in adequate to help someone in your particular situation.

Sometimes it is worth it to compete. Not because you will succeed but because it might open the door to new opportunities, or give you necessary vision for later in life, or it might strengthen you, or you might meet new people who can actually help you and who you can invest in. Not all activities should be prioritized based on probability of success or degree of competition; sometimes it's worth expending energy on something that might fail.

Also, life IS about expending energy; otherwise you are not living, you are just sitting around and THINKING about living. You might feel numb or dead or passionless because you're not actually living right now. You're just analyzing life.

Why can't they just assign me a clear, specific task and threaten me with consequences if I don't succeed like they did in high school, rather than giving me all this vague nonsense about "will," "freedom," "decision," "potential," "success," and "future"? I don't know what to do with any of that stuff, it doesn't make any sense.

I guess they just expect you to be autonomous. Right now you have forged your autonomy by withdrawing from society to a large degree and depending on others for your needs. That's not really autonomy per se, and it doesn't equip you to give to others in return. Maybe you could view it that way -- you're not doing this for just you, you're making yourself a strong person and acquiring resources so that you can be more integrated into the lives of other people who you could then help? There are many ways to view life.

Why can't they tell me anything that makes sense, I don't want to explore my potential, decide anything, or succeed. I just want to be told what to do so I won't have to think. I'm so tired of thinking. I think, and think, and think, and the more I do, the more confused I get.

Okay, you don't win any points with me by wanting to not think anymore...

... but as one formerly obsessive thinker to another, I actually understand that. At some point, thinking gets you nowhere; and the ambiguities of life means there are no clear-cut answers. One reason games like WoW are addictive is because the entire world is set up on a very clear reward/punishment structure; <do this quest or activity> and you will get <this> and you WILL get it, eventually, if you keep trying. Real life just does not have that guarantee -- you can pour yourself into something and completely fail to recover anything or gain anything -- and it would be nice to have everything make sense, so we wouldn't waste our time, suffer horrendous disappointments, and wander for years.

So for much of my life I sat around and "thought" and did not engage, because i did not want to risk my resources on a shaky venture where I was woefully inadequate (in my mind) compared to others with more drive and passion.

I think maybe it's not the end achievement that is most helpful as a reason to make the [risky] investment, it's what the process of chasing after something does to you and how it shapes you as a person. The end result is to "produce the best, strongest, most healthy, most beneficial, most happy" you. And that's why people (i think) should have goals, even if the goals are impossible to reach. We get changed and shaped along the way, hopefully, into better people with more life enjoyment... if we keep the right attitudes throughout the process and know what it cannot ensure or provide.

 

[Athenian200]

But... I think unnecessary action is almost immoral. I don't like activity, action, or doing, and I like to keep it to a minimum. I think it's lowly.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yes. Fi is my weakest function. I see it as silly.

Well, in that case you "have" something similar as I do. Since Ni seeks deeper meaning in everything while Fi creates personal opinions.

What means that if you have this combination you will have problems setting personal goals. Which is because you operate on the way that you are simply collecting data and that is pretty much it.


Most things I have done in my life I have done simply because I had nothing to do at the time. I can't say that I didn't enjoy them at least a little bit, but I can't say that those things are really important to me.


The only thing that saves me in this situation is actually my overdeveloped Te that ensures that things get done. Even if there is no deep personal agenda behind my actions.

I mean the main reason why I have started to talk to people in real life is because I didn't have something to do on my own anymore. But since I am a man in persuit of deep understanding I started experimenting in that sphere of life just for the sake of it.


Maybe you should try with this approach ?

 

[Athenian200]

Maybe you should try with this approach ?

I would if I was curious enough... I don't know. I guess, as much as I hate to admit it, I'm actually content. Maybe I just think I need something else because other people tell me I should, but maybe I'm content with this. I think I'm content with permanent stagnation. I don't need to grow as a person.

 

[Usehername]

I'm not the sort of person who needs to learn through trial and error. I don't do that, I'm not a gambler.

I misspoke--I meant trial and error in the sense of trying out (just for example) a book club that meets once a week--they may look like an awesome club on the 'net, but perhaps the person leading the meeting is a snob and it's not your scene. You can't figure this out except by showing up IRL, i.e. through trial (and by error I just meant in the sense of the phrase--it needs to be discovered through action).

But maybe before you walk away from the club, you ask around to the other members and learn that there's a web design group that's quite chill that you might be interested in, and this person gives off vibes that say to you, "I just might share a similar POV and they seem cool enough" so you take action and try out their suggestion.

This is a way to find your place in the world, with people who are like-minded and who value your friendship.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I would if I was curious enough... I don't know. I guess, as much as I hate to admit it, I'm actually content. Maybe I just think I need something else because other people tell me I should, but maybe I'm content with this. I think I'm content with permanent stagnation.

Well we live on a different sides of the world so there is no point in going into the details. But for me this has pretty much nothing to do with content, this is just a matter of progress . (at least to me it is )

 

[Athenian200]

I misspoke--I meant trial and error in the sense of trying out (just for example) a book club that meets once a week--they may look like an awesome club on the 'net, but perhaps the person leading the meeting is a snob and it's not your scene. You can't figure this out except by showing up IRL, i.e. through trial (and by error I just meant in the sense of the phrase--it needs to be discovered through action).

But maybe before you walk away from the club, you ask around to the other members and learn that there's a web design group that's quite chill that you might be interested in, and this person gives off vibes that say to you, "I just might share a similar POV and they seem cool enough" so you take action and try out their suggestion.

This is a way to find your place in the world, with people who are like-minded and who value your friendship.

A book club? I'd like to join something like that, and in fact I've looked for one in my area... but most groups in my area that seem easy to get into are oriented around technology, and only meet once a month. I've already started going to a group relevant to the technology I'm studying now, and there it's a good place to learn about the field I'm looking into, so it doesn't really matter how I feel about the people there. They don't really seem nice or mean, they just seem like generic computer geeks.

Sigh. Yeah, this technology stuff is not doing my F any good. It doesn't exactly make me want to think about relating to people rather than solving technical problems.

You know, I'm beginning to think it might have been a stressed decision. Most of the other people in that class are ISTPs. Probably didn't help that my ISTx mother was already pushing me that way. I was being pressured to take some kind of class and decide what I was interested in, so I ended up deciding on computer networking, since I've set up a home network, used SSH, and mess with the Internet a lot.

 

[Usehername]

A book club? I'd like to join something like that, and in fact I've looked for one in my area... but most groups in my area that seem easy to get into are oriented around technology, and only meet once a month. I've already started going to a group relevant to the technology I'm studying now, and there it's a good place to learn about the field I'm looking into, so it doesn't really matter how I feel about the people there. They don't really seem nice or mean, they just seem like generic computer geeks.

Sigh. Yeah, this technology stuff is not doing my F any good.

Awesome. Not that this is the only strategy, but is one that will be successful if you give it enough chances--finding a starting place, trying it out, and if it works, great, if not, see what sort of leads you can get from others. The key is repeated action, and it will take you to places that satisfy your desire for an exchange of ideas.

 

[Athenian200]

Awesome. Not that this is the only strategy, but is one that will be successful if you give it enough chances--finding a starting place, trying it out, and if it works, great, if not, see what sort of leads you can get from others. The key is repeated action, and it will take you to places that satisfy your desire for an exchange of ideas.

It's just that my mother doesn't like it when I just "follow leads" rather than following through with whatever I start. She thinks it seems tacky when you just try things and try things without sticking to something whether you like it or not. Basically, she doesn't have a positive view of "finding yourself," thinks it's a waste of time. She's kind of taught me to feel that way, too... hmm.

So I'm reluctant to express an interest in anything for fear that I'll end up committing myself to a course that I don't really like much at all.

 

[Usehername]

It's just that my mother doesn't like it when I just "follow leads" rather than following through with whatever I start. She thinks it seems tacky when you just try things and try things without sticking to something whether you like it or not. Basically, she doesn't have a positive view of "finding yourself," thinks it's a waste of time. She's kind of taught me to feel that way, too... hmm.

So I'm reluctant to express an interest in anything for fear that I'll end up committing myself to a course that I don't really like much at all.

If you were advising a friend who just typed this, what might you point out to them?

 

[Athenian200]

If you were advising a friend who just typed this, what might you point out to them?

Well... I would tell them to try and get into a position where they weren't so vulnerable to their parent's influence on a consistent basis.

But the thing is, I don't see a good way to do that right now.

 

[Usehername]

Well... I would tell them to try and get into a position where they weren't so vulnerable to their parent's influence on a consistent basis.

But the thing is, I don't see a good way to do that right now.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you underestimate your stubbornness/intelligence a little here. You have power (your parents might have more, but that doesn't mean that you don't have power). You can influence yourself--say, by writing down a few key statements that you want to tell yourself, and reading them to compensate for your parents' influence.

I do this--it doesn't mean I couldn't think it over in my head and reason away influence from someone whose POV I don't respect, it just means I don't get caught up in my head when I'm "under the influence," I instead rely on my own reasoning abilities when I was more clear-headed and read my own advice.

 

[Lethe]

It's just that my mother doesn't like it when I just "follow leads" rather than following through with whatever I start. She thinks it seems tacky when you just try things and try things without sticking to something whether you like it or not. Basically, she doesn't have a positive view of "finding yourself," thinks it's a waste of time. She's kind of taught me to feel that way, too... hmm.

So I'm reluctant to express an interest in anything for fear that I'll end up committing myself to a course that I don't really like much at all.

Meh. She's trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, I say.

If you don't feel ambitious or passionate, forcing yourself to be so will not make this characteristic appear any more vibrant than it already is. I really do think finding an active organization, or working within human resources would be your ideal job. You seem to move quicker when other people (aside from your family) are making emotional demands on you. Then why not get a position that suits this behavior?

And if you're in a large enough organization, you could easily switch commitments without anyone noticing.