I am my type, but don't "look" it. Why?

[á´…eparted]

I am sorry but English is not my first language and therefore "seeing people as pawns" probably came out somewhat wrong. What I wanted to says is that I can see you as someone who thinks that sometimes people need to be saved from themselfs and therefore their wishes should be overridden for their own good. However in order for a person to do that he has to be able to have some sort of emotional/physical detachment from other people. The reason why I am saying this is because I see something similar in myself and I blame my NJness and my Enneragram that is actually fairly similar to yours. Also it seem to me that you are uncomfortble with your distace from others and you are tring to change the definition of yourself in order to allow yourself to be closer to others. (What is typical ENFJ dilemma from what I know)

As far as the S dilemma goes. You are probably somewhat more Se person than me but from what I have witnessed N person that has a clear J preference will not look as a stereotypical N person. Especially since the N stereotype is biased towards the Ne since Ne is much more observable in a person and much more common in population (SJ intuition is Ne). In contrast Ni will remain hidden and it will not show itself directly unless you go into deep disscusion/debate with another person. The trick is that Ni is very long term goal driven fuction and therfore it can look much more closeminded/decisive then it actually is. For example as soon as some sudden event happens you immediately know what has to be done about it and what has to be done in order to get things back on track. If that is just not possible anymore you will also pretty instantly know what can be achieved in current circumstances and go in that direction to save what you can. This means that you do not play as much with random ideas as much as you are instantly aware of what has to be done or what will probably happen next. (and it frustrates you that others often do not see this as well)

However you can pull all of this even if you did not have too much experience with such situations. Instead you know that the laws of physics are everywhere the same and by observing the space/landscape you know the various disstances and terrain properties. What allows you to know exacly how much time/resources each person will take for a specific task/problem. In a way this is heartless approach but when you see scattered people not knowing what to do you know that you have to make something happen. Especially since you are pretty sure that you know exact solution to the problem and have personal power to convince the group that this is how it should be. This is not an easy role since you want to help people but you can't get too close if you really want to help them because you may lose track if you mix too much. What makes it even worse is that since you clean problems for the whole group people start to depend on you and believe that you can always find an easy way out. What really makes a lot of unwanted pressure and indirectly forces you to keep your distance even if you do not really want to. What then leads you to scenario that you prefer to hang out only with other "elitists" - the ones that are worthy.

If you relate to all of this I see no real reason to doubt that your typing is correct.

Yeah I relate to it. Perectly? Not exactly, but I'm sure any "yes but" statements would invalidate or change things very much. I can understand you fine, don't worry about language barriers. One thing that is spot on is my uncomfortableness with distance from others. I want to be close with people, but, I can't do it right? It's difficult for me to explain, but it does bother me A LOT. I have absolutely tried changing who I am to varying to degrees before to acheive it. One time in particular many years ago lead to some very severe psychological stress. Granted, a lot of it is born from a desire of "perfectness". Still, you're right I would say it's a typical ENFJ dilemma.

You're spot on to the lean towards Ne in analysis and tests. I mean, it does make sense because it's more visible, but I relate to it so little that things just get skewed.

I am definitely much more Se in person. I'm kind of "nuts", and I attribute much of it to my Se, actually.

But yes, ultimately what you've written does describe how I am quite well. Nothing is amiss.

I dunno, after seeing that video of you, EJ, SB, and BO (lol thats an awkward acronym), I can totally see you as ENFJ with EJ being the real ESTJ. I'm best friends with three ENFJs - one 2w3 so/sx, one 2w3 sx/so (man you should see her facebook profile pictures...they're like the epitome of that stacking), and one 3w2 so/sx or sx/so. They're all sp-last and have more 2/3 influence so they're different in that sense, but something about the way you carry yourself seems similar. It's like you have this personable nature with some kind of tacit sense of authority lying underneath. It's like "hey, I'm nice and fun now but if some bullshit gets thrown my way I'm putting on a straight face and setting it to rest in a quick minute." I think you can come across a lot more critical/dry on here which is why you probably seem stereotypically ESTJ to others on here (and I know [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] also worked her butt off in the past to talk down stereotypes like that haha). So yeah.

The one valid point I see is what [MENTION=22109]Evee[/MENTION] said, but actually in your video I saw that less and more entertaining possibilities and building on hypotheticals. Maybe on this forum you put a lot more thought into building a solid base for an argument with actualities, while IRL you're more comfortable dealing with the other stuff I mentioned.

^ I can vouch for that -- [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] really does come across as less harsh irl. But then again, I think he uses the forum in kind of a cp6-fix way, seeking out things he can get mad about. Which he obviously wouldn't do in person, with friends.

(Side note: I think you can get a really good feel for his Fe, in that video, because of his very clear sense of his role in the group dynamic in each particular moment. Same with [MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION]. In contrast with me -- I may be good at stepping back and making room for others, on the forum, but I have more of a tendency to barrel through interpersonal situations like an enthusiastic bull in a china shop IRL. )

I also disagree with [MENTION=22109]Evee[/MENTION]'s post on possibilities vs. actualities, and would amend it to possibilities vs. probabilities. I focus quite a bit on how things could be, in the future, but I focus almost exclusively on what is most likely to happen. What makes the most practical sense.

To both of you. Yeah at this point I think I am pretty much convinced that I look like an ENFJ. I think what it is, is that there were some potions that were off, but it seems like most people see "yeah that's off, but it's because of x and I see past it".

The distinction between possibillites and probabilities is on point. The former? I generally don't care, it's usually a waste of time unless there is an explicit purpose to it. The latter? It's a big fucking deal and I am weighing that out constantly and consider the odds of all kinds of things. I would be able to be me if I didn't do that. I do and am able to deal with diffuse less concrete things in person. I'm usually at my best when I am rolling with things and deal with them as they show up, and make interpretations of it.

Hmm, I don't so much seek out things to get mad at (though I'm sure you will disagree, and I won't fight it ), it's more that I feel a strong compulsion to just deal with things, and sort of pull double duty and use it as a way to "vent the rage".

 

[á´…eparted]

That also sounds a lot like my Fe dom father. Jesus, he can be anal and can seem unreasonable when it comes to rules, but I've come to accept that's his nature, and it can be endearing, particularly when he's "on my side." He also has a rebellious streak in him that can surface when he's decided a rule is bullshit or that authorities or "experts" simply don't know what they're talking about.

I've only interacted with Hard online, but it's a bit eerie how much he reminds me of my dad.
@Hard, go easy on your kid if you, by any chance, happen to have a I--P son. j/k

The odds of me having kids is really low. For several reasons:

A. I think I would make a terrible parent. I hate babies and small children, and I am only able to mask myself from things I hate for short periods. The child would eventually come to see bad sides that simply aren't right, and it's not fair.

B. I'm gay so having a child would be difficult.

C. If I did have a kid, I would want the child to be a biological combination of my partner and I, and I am not willing to have any other setup. Until there is a way to generate an egg from a man, this isn't happening.

That point about having a rebellious streak when rules are bullshit applies to me too. Though I am extremely covert about it and make sure I won't get caught. I've done some *highly* illegal things in my life so far.

yeah he's good to me, despite me being an INFP and him not liking them, but not many people like INFPs hell sometimes i don't like INFPs either. I think he'd be a good dad to an I--P

Well, it's cause I like you. You're an interesting individual, funny, and blunt to boot. They're qualites I value. You're difficult for me to follow most of the time, but I am mostly able to do it. I tend to have issues with INFP's, but I've learned that it's xNTP's that I have the most issues with in practice. It's E4's that I tend to have issues with, which I mixed in with INFP's for a long while (they appear similar on the surface). Even so, I can be friends with any type. Just as anyone else can.

 

[á´…eparted]

I kind of doubt that anyone really falls into the stereotype of their type in any system

as an example, I can come across as very Fe at times, but it's not really coming from anything that's really deep seated or that I can feel... it's coming from what makes sense to me rationally (and what will get people to quit annoying me)

we learn behaviors and we learn to act as needed at times

People are complex, no one will fit perfectly. We'd be a pretty boring lot if we did. I just ultimately wanted to see why I didn't seem to fit well at all. I've pretty much got what I came for at this point (I'll summarize it tonight or tomorrow).

@Hard

I think the need to "perform" type is probably one of the most detrimental aspects of participating in a forum like this. The idea with any of this stuff is to get to know yourself as you are, so who cares if you "seem" like your type? It's only problematic if you've developed an identity around your type.

Could you be ESTP? Sure why not. You have an interaction style that reminds me of ESTPs I've known, but if being ENFJ helps you get a handle on certain elements of your personality better then be ENFJ. At the end of the day it's about what's useful to you.

It's not so much that I need to preform, but more that I am bothered by things that don't fit well. I shove it away a lot of the time, but I'm ultimately an idealist. Not an idea fit? Ok then let's find out why. It's a compulsion that can be a bit hard to exist. I'm not worried about appearing "wrong" or "not my type" but just wanting to gather why things appeared (at first) off. The act of asking this actually is helping me understand myself more, by understanding discrepencies.

I completely understand the sentiment you're giving though. I went through that on the INFJforums years ago, I learned my lesson (many of us did).

 

[á´…eparted]

Same. On all counts. Including being a stubborn bastard about it.

I see what "should" happen, and I want to get from "is" to "should" as quickly as possible. If door-to-face worked, life would be much simpler for me.. and for the chip on my shoulder. I can get really impatient on important matters. But my approach is different, and it looks to be more along the lines of your friends'. Although I do want to just want to get to the damn end already, I usually fail to recognize when and where a direct approach will actually work.

... guilty as charged. Damn.

This absolutely describes my relationship with opinions. I have them, I stand by them, they're by and large good assessments, and to the degree that they're good I want to see them enacted. I don't usually care whether they're expressed for any other purpose.

For lack of a better way to put it -- some people, perhaps only at some moments in time, are "lost causes." Something about horse, water, leading, and drinking.

I don't tend to make enemies. I don't (completely) bend over backwards to not make them, but I also don't actively seek them out, either. "We disagree? We'll always disagree? There's nothing at stake, at all? Then fuck it. Ain't gonna bother." I don't mean it in a self-pitying, self-loathing, negative, despairing way -- it's just how the priorities in the back of my mind work.

Yeah we kinda are the same person in a lot of respects .

When I say "bad blood" I don't so much make enemies. If I do I smooth them over really quick and tamp them out. I have close to zero social problems because of it. On the forums, eh I don't care as much. If people get in my way or cross me, it's not my problem and I'll deal with it as I see fit.

For more substantiating things, yeah a huge urge why I want to share my opinions is because I want something to be done with them, I want action from it. I don't expect it most of the time (I'd be a total asshole if I did), but I try as if I am trying to achieve that. When I say I have to share opinions, it really does mean all kinds of things. For example, if someone expresses they love Mexican food, I will proclaim "Ugh, I hate Mexican food" on pretty much pure impulse. Hold that in is doable, but I still don't like doing it. Sometimes I have to quietly say things outloud under my breath. There's a reason my friends have a running joke that I have an opinion on everything.

@Hard

When I first joined a few months ago and lurked the older threads, I briefly thought that you had a more forceful personality than I would've expected from an Fe-dom. Then I saw your etype and wasn't surprised anymore.

That's about 40% a joke btw.

Anyway, from only a few months of (until fairly recently) indirect interaction, I don't think your behavior and personality type are exceptionally contradictory. Even if it were, actual personalities and web personas don't always match up neatly and unless the individual is expressing doubt about their own type, I assume they have better insight to themselves than I do.

Ha! It doesn't need to be a joke, it's true. 1's can and do have a certain level of forcefulness to them. I just choose not to contain it much of the time. It requires a lot of energy to do so, and I've found that letting it out is ultimately more useful, helpful, and satisfying most of the time.

-----------------------------------

I'll summarize things tomorrow. I am exausted from working in lab so much. Thanks for everything so far everyone!

 

[prplchknz]

The odds of me having kids is really low. For several reasons:

A. I think I would make a terrible parent. I hate babies and small children, and I am only able to mask myself from things I hate for short periods. The child would eventually come to see bad sides that simply aren't right, and it's not fair.

B. I'm gay so having a child would be difficult.

C. If I did have a kid, I would want the child to be a biological combination of my partner and I, and I am not willing to have any other setup. Until there is a way to generate an egg from a man, this isn't happening.

That point about having a rebellious streak when rules are bullshit applies to me too. Though I am extremely covert about it and make sure I won't get caught. I've done some *highly* illegal things in my life so far.




Well, it's cause I like you. You're an interesting individual, funny, and blunt to boot. They're qualites I value. You're difficult for me to follow most of the time, but I am mostly able to do it. I tend to have issues with INFP's, but I've learned that it's xNTP's that I have the most issues with in practice. It's E4's that I tend to have issues with, which I mixed in with INFP's for a long while (they appear similar on the surface). Even so, I can be friends with any type. Just as anyone else can.

i dunno, i guess yeah it be harder than me, but i have friend who the whole time i've known has is one of the things he wants is a child. he says he's gonna do it via surrogacy.

and no worries you aren't the only person who can't always follow me. but the thing is you admit it and i like that, people who can follow me i'm like people who claim they can but can't i''m like because they wouldn't be yelling at me with the words they are using, and its a long argument me going "you don't understand" and getting frustrated cuz they're so convinced they know. and people who don't always follow me and admits it i'm just like or if they smoke weed i tell them to do that, because some how they follow me when high, but i don't make people smoke if they don't want to.

 

[Jaguar]

Could you be ESTP? Sure why not. You have an interaction style that reminds me of ESTPs I've known, but if being ENFJ helps you get a handle on certain elements of your personality better then be ENFJ. At the end of the day it's about what's useful to you.

Dear God, woman. Hard = Halla? Get serious.

 

[violet_crown]

It's not so much that I need to preform, but more that I am bothered by things that don't fit well. I shove it away a lot of the time, but I'm ultimately an idealist. Not an idea fit? Ok then let's find out why. It's a compulsion that can be a bit hard to exist. I'm not worried about appearing "wrong" or "not my type" but just wanting to gather why things appeared (at first) off. The act of asking this actually is helping me understand myself more, by understanding discrepencies.

I completely understand the sentiment you're giving though. I went through that on the INFJforums years ago, I learned my lesson (many of us did).

I appreciate your open-mindedness. I think my point was more to keep in mind that exploring those possibilities and alternate perspectives is more important than expecting to find anything definitive as to why you'd look a certain way or don't.

Dear God, woman. Hard = Halla? Get serious.

Perhaps. But does he resemble bologna or jscrothers better? Or Domino and Juice? Even though the delivery is pretty different between Halla and Hard (which could be explained by enneagram), I feel the two of them might make similar points in similar situations, or even take exception to the same things just with a different approach. I'm just entertaining the possibility.

 

[Jaguar]

Perhaps. But does he resemble bologna or jscrothers better? Or Domino and Juice? Even though the delivery is pretty different between Halla and Hard (which could be explained by enneagram), I feel the two of them might make similar points in similar situations, or even take exception to the same things just with a different approach. I'm just entertaining the possibility.

Two people in the same room.

HALLA

Hard


Bologna changed his type so often it's not worth talking about. How about Hard and Proteanmix? Both (allegedly) E1 ENFJ. Similar? Yes. (Different genders, though.) Dom and Juice. Juice was Juice. E8 vs E1? Not worth discussing, really. Now, what do Hard, Proteanmix, and Dom all have in common? The heartfelt, expressive ranting cut loose on other people. To this day, one of my favorite posts was Proteanmix thrashing Uber and announcing she will gladly take an infraction for what she was about to do. (And she did get an infraction.) They're incredibly long, expressive, rants. Then there was Dom who gave a public beating to a guy for behaving like a heartless piece of shit. (He's probably still licking his wounds after all these years.) Long and expressive.

Let's go with another ESTP - TreeBob. Hard = TreeBob? Uh, no.
ESTP TreeBob: "You sound like a dickwad."

versus

ENFJ rant:

Blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah
blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah
blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah

Having said all that, it's not how I sort type. This is >>>>>> Seeking consensus on a consistent basis is the number one thing I look for in ENFJs. Look at this thread: Hard seeking consensus. Again.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. You do not regard consensus, where as I do.

Well, here's the thing. I DO see myself as ENFJ. I identify with it well, but you disagree with myself assessment, so the next thing to do is to check with the consensus of others.

I could post more of the same, but you get the point.

 

[violet_crown]

Having said all that, it's not how I sort type. This is >>>>>> Seeking consensus on a consistent basis is the number one thing I look for in ENFJs. Look at this thread: Hard seeking consensus. Again.

All Fe users are going to seek consensus to some degree, including ESTPs. Hard, from my observations of him, is less about persuading as enforcing the opinion of his "In" group. In fact, most of the interactions I've seen from Hard with many members has been him willing to "lay down hard truths" regardless of how it may make him look. My opinion of his type is that I see more of the Se side in him than the Ni.

That said, I think the fact that he's a 1, as well as identifies as someone on the autism spectrum could just make him an uncommon kind of ENFJ.

 

[Jaguar]

All Fe users are going to seek consensus to some degree, including ESTPs.

I said consistent basis.
ESTPs seeking consensus on a consistent basis would be nothing short of absurd. And I'd give them shit for it if they did.

Can you imagine TreeBob posting this:

TreeBob: "Hey, someone questioned my ESTPness, oh, no, what will I do? I need a consensus to make my decision."

In. Your. Dreams.

Hard, from my observations of him, is less about persuading as enforcing the opinion of his "In" group. In fact, most of the interactions I've seen from Hard with many members has been him willing to "lay down hard truths" regardless of how it may make him look. My opinion of his type is that I see more of the Se side in him than the Ni.

And if Proteanmix were here she'd say, "Thanks for describing me so well, Rexy." She freely admitted her reliance on Se which made her appear unlike ENFJ. I can't reveal to what degree, since that information was covered in our PMs. All I can say is, it was funny as hell. By the way, are you one of those black and white thinkers who believes people only have consciousness of their first two function-attitudes? Have you not noticed how many ENFPs boast about their so-called "Te hammer"? Heck, even HappyPuppy (Orobas) is aware enough to know she has a "baby STJ" inside of her. That's what she called it. Other ENFPs can be utterly oblivious to that part of themselves. And how about the chick who started a thread to bitch at male INFJs? The thread title was something like:

Hey INFJ gentlemen, you're not ESTPs so quit acting like it!

Idiotic thread. . . .

I was hoping an INFJ would tell her to go pound sand. And come to think of it, there was a feisty INFJ in that thread named Billy fighting with Marm. I forget what the hell she was bitching at him for, I think she was trying to tell him he wasn't INFJ. What else is new around here?

 

[violet_crown]

I said consistent basis.
ESTPs seeking consensus on a consistent basis would be nothing short of absurd. And I'd give them shit for it if they did.

Can you imagine TreeBob posting this:

TreeBob: "Hey, someone questioned my ESTPness, oh, no, what will I do? I need a consensus to make my decision."

In. Your. Dreams.

That's my point. I don't think that Hard necessarily cares about harmony or consensus on a regular basis. He's seeking it here to reinforce his belief that he belongs to a certain group. That's pretty much textbook tert Fe. Just saying that you care about something means very little if your pattern of behavior isn't reflective of that particular value. Hell, *I* could say right now that I value peaceful conflict free environments, and you could quote that and use it as evidence that I'm an Fe-dom. It would be bullshit but it would be about as solid of evidence as what you're working with presently.

Second, looking at the dom-aux function use as evidence for type is perfectly valid as they're going to be the most used/most consciously used functions that the individual is going to have access to. The relief function is going to be just sort of a nuance in general presentation, and the inferior function is not going to show up unless the person is under duress. So, no, it's not evidence of "black and white thinking" so much as it is a matter of knowing what I'm talking about.

I'm curious, though, if you feel that Hard looks differently from his type at all. And if so, to what do you attribute it?

 

[Virtual ghost]

All Fe users are going to seek consensus to some degree, including ESTPs. Hard, from my observations of him, is less about persuading as enforcing the opinion of his "In" group. In fact, most of the interactions I've seen from Hard with many members has been him willing to "lay down hard truths" regardless of how it may make him look. My opinion of his type is that I see more of the Se side in him than the Ni.

That said, I think the fact that he's a 1, as well as identifies as someone on the autism spectrum could just make him an uncommon kind of ENFJ.

1. Fe and whole concensus thing mostly depend on where and around who do you live you life. This is not a hard evidence of anything in my opinion.

2. Yes he seems to enforce opinions but that is what 1s do, especially if they have 3 and 6 fix.

3. Of course you do not see Ni side of him. Since Fe/Se loop is what is actually visable in an ENFJ and enneagram 1 makes sure that only conclusion are what is presented. The more J a person is the more likely is that it will not discuss how they came to conclusion since in a persons mind that is considered as "solved and a waste of time", unless this is trully very important to others.

4. ENFJ and 1w2 is not that unnatural combination and it is much much more natural than ESTP and 1. (actually I knew ENFJ 1w2 in real life)

In the case Hard is trully an ESTP then we need to remake his enneagram as well. For some reason you are indirecly saying that a person can't be an ENFJ if it is not a heart type and I do not agree with that. The ENFJs that are not heart first will have harder skin and they will not look as a classical ENFJ that has a heart type as a core. (what is basically a double feeling persona)



If you claim that the guy is ESFJ or Fe heavy ENTP then maybe I could buy your argument but ESTP is just too far from him.

 

[violet_crown]

1. Fe and whole concensus thing mostly depend on where and around who do you live you life. This is not a hard evidence of anything in my opinion.

You need to rephrase this as I have no clue what this means.

2. Yes he seems to enforce opinions but that is what 1s do, especially if they have 3 and 6 fix.

It's not a matter of that he is outspoken, but what that looks like that would be indicative of MBTI type.

3. Of course you do not see Ni side of him. Since Fe/Se loop is what is actually visable in an ENFJ and enneagram 1 makes sure that only conclusion are what is presented. The more J a person is the more likely is that it will not discuss how they came to conclusion since in a persons mind that is considered as "solved and a waste of time", unless this is trully very important to others.

I disagree strongly with this. What I associate with externalized Ni is a sort of metaperspectivizing where the person is not necessarily making a comment or point about the situation in question, but commenting on the sequence itself. Those kinds of musings can come through even if the Ni user is not explicit about the process by which they've come to that perspective. In ENFJs, I've seen it as a sort of self-styled "persona" that they perform in a way that makes it clear that it's real/unreal. It's true to some part of themselves, but is more calculated for impact than it is an authentic expression. Hard never struck me as weird like that. He seems like a guy who shoots from the hip, says what he means and means what he says. It's all very cut and dry.

4. ENFJ and 1w2 is not that unnatural combination and it is much much more natural than ESTP and 1. (actually I knew ENFJ 1w2 in real life)

In the case Hard is trully an ESTP then we need to remake his enneagram as well. For some reason you are indirecly saying that a person can't be an ENFJ if it is not a heart type and I do not agree with that. The ENFJs that are not heart first will have harder skin and they will not look as a classical ENFJ that has a heart type as a core. (what is basically a double feeling persona)

The comment regarding enneagram was a concession on my part that if he is ENFJ, then the discrepancies he's perceiving between himself and other ENFJs could in part be explained by a less common enneagram typing. I've never indirectly said anything except it's a less common typing for an ENFJ, which is just a simple fact.

I'd also like to point out that this whole thing started off as more or less an off-hand comment not an avowed typing of anyone. An ENFJ could look like an ESTP because you're talking about the difference between a loop that is Fe-Se vs Se-Fe. All the pearl clutching that this has provoked is mostly just silly.

 

[á´…eparted]

[MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] [MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION], that was very interesting to read. I wasn't going to entertain others suggesting alternate types for me (since most of them aren't even slightly qualified to do it ), but I value both of your opinions a lot, so I'll do it here.

It's my understanding that WUR is mostly playing devils advocate here with the suggestion of ESTP, and I ultimately don't agree that it would be my type, nevertheless it still brought up some interesting points. Most notably, that my Se stands out a fair amount. Interestingly, it's less obvious in person, though you'd expect it to be the other way around. I really value my Se because it's a point of play and fun, which are really important to me. It took me until a year or two ago to really iron it down and be able to use it productively. It's honestly my childhood that bolsters the notion that ESTP is not possible. I was absolutely steamrolled by kids that used Se a lot when I was little, and my attempts at it were feeble, and often got me in trouble with adults.

I definitely want definitives, there just a lot easier to deal with, but I know the utility of being open to things, so I try to make a point to do so (I mean, I'm doing so now, at least I think so).

Jaguar hit on a hallmark, that honestly appears in every ENFJ I have known. Some more than others, but it's there. The heartfelt rant. I definitely do it, and it feels so good when I pull it off right. I have a sharp tongue and when I want to cut, I can cut immensely deep. I do not know any of the members (aside from potentially Billy, who was a member I knew on the INFJforums. If they are the same person... oh my god I wish I could have seen that fight), but I can relate to what you've said about Proteamix. Hell, my final "weapon" is just casting standards to the side, absolutely open up on someone full on knowing I will get infracted for it. It can be totally worth it. I did it sort of during my first month here, but it was more born of expecting that I would leave in a few weeks (obviously I stayed).

And yes, consensus. I have never met an ESTP before that regards it like I do. Hell, very few people regard consensus like I do. I have somewhat of a difficult time grasping how people don't regard it, and it can actually send me into a foamy rage if people try to argue that consensus is wrong and meaningless... *twitch*. It's a one way ticket to making me completely lose it in political and science debates. I apply it in many many areas though, not just that. The reason I do it, is I see it as reducing possible error. A single individual mind can and does err, but more frequently it doesn't. If you collectively take the thoughts of multiple people (screening those who "make the cut" in some cases though), the signal to noise ration goes way up and the information is much more viable and confirmed. It's not fullproof and it doesn't work in every situation, but it very frequently does. I don't need consensus, but if I can get it and it would improve things and is still efficient, then I will seek it out.

It might not seem it, but harmony matters a lot to me. It's not born of the classic "oh no not everyone gets along!" ENFJ woes, but "oh no everyone doesn't agree!". That bothers me a bunch, because it means that something is wrong. I don't want things to be wrong. If I can get everyone to agree, or remove the outliers, then the "wrong" is effectively removed. One of the reasons I can get catty in groups (and on here) is if I see someone, or multiple making a stink and breaking the ideal harmony. Usually the simplest and quickest way to deal is to just get rid of them. It's more fair to try to get them to integrate better, or change, but because that takes more time and effort (and 90% of the time I don't see it as possible as ideally as it would need to be) I don't try those methods first, or I just let someone else try. A big motivation for me doing what I do, is to try and keep that harmony intact. It relates to consensus too. I get bent out of shape if not everyone agrees on something, I end up thinking "wait, they don't agree? Why? Something must be amiss"

 

[violet_crown]

It's my understanding that WUR is mostly playing devils advocate here with the suggestion of ESTP

You told them. Now I can't have anymore fun. ENFJs are why we can't have nice things.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It might not seem it, but harmony matters a lot to me. It's not born of the classic "oh no not everyone gets along!" ENFJ woes, but "oh no everyone doesn't agree!". That bothers me a bunch, because it means that something is wrong. I don't want things to be wrong. If I can get everyone to agree, or remove the outliers, then the "wrong" is effectively removed. One of the reasons I can get catty in groups (and on here) is if I see someone, or multiple making a stink and breaking the ideal harmony. Usually the simplest and quickest way to deal is to just get rid of them. It's more fair to try to get them to integrate better, or change, but because that takes more time and effort (and 90% of the time I don't see it as possible as ideally as it would need to be) I don't try those methods first, or I just let someone else try. A big motivation for me doing what I do, is to try and keep that harmony intact. It relates to consensus too. I get bent out of shape if not everyone agrees on something, I end up thinking "wait, they don't agree? Why? Something must be amiss"

In my experience, this is not always the case.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

Because you're an enneagram 1 and it usually correlates with Te, you also are sx last which makes you come across as colder and more rational than the usual Fe types. You're also a male, maybe playing a gender role affects your over-all appirence.

 

[Jaguar]

I don't think that Hard necessarily cares about harmony or consensus on a regular basis.

I disagree. Furthermore, awhile back I was giving him flak for his constant seeking of consensus. It was when he posted how important it was to him that I backed off. He's entitled to stay true to his natural wiring, just as I am entitled to stay true to mine.

He's seeking it here to reinforce his belief that he belongs to a certain group. That's pretty much textbook tert Fe. Just saying that you care about something means very little if your pattern of behavior isn't reflective of that particular value. Hell, *I* could say right now that I value peaceful conflict free environments, and you could quote that and use it as evidence that I'm an Fe-dom. It would be bullshit but it would be about as solid of evidence as what you're working with presently.

I didn't provide peaceful, conflict-free environments as evidence of Fe. You are. Actually, I posted the opposite regarding ENFJs - heartfelt rants. Hardly peaceful. In this forum, ENFJ rants have been analogous to Hurricane Andrew in Florida.

Second, looking at the dom-aux function use as evidence for type is perfectly valid as they're going to be the most used/most consciously used functions that the individual is going to have access to.

It depends; I posted this elsewhere in the forum:

If the person is an orchestra, ask yourself how you know if what you're "hearing" is their conscious or unconscious playing of the violin. People want so desperately to believe they know the answer to that question. I believe it was Marie-Louise von Franz who wrote how difficult it is to discern between the dominant and inferior functions. That's right, difficult. Theoretically, it may be weak in consciousness but not weak in strength. That means a person can be consciously playing a violin, but the people around them can hear a french horn playing so loudly it drowns out the violin and they have to put their hands over their ears. But the person playing the violin is completely unaware of how loudly that french horn is playing. Now, what does that mean? Well, for starters, quite a few people would probably type the person a "french horn dominant" rather than a "violin dominant" believing that whatever is playing loudest wins. That could of course be a huge mistake.

The relief function is going to be just sort of a nuance in general presentation, and the inferior function is not going to show up unless the person is under duress. So, no, it's not evidence of "black and white thinking" so much as it is a matter of knowing what I'm talking about.

You're shooting old dogma bullets at me, but I'll duck. Other than myself, Xander (INTP) is one of the few people in this forum who has made the same type of observations I have - ITPs, for example, can have "better" Fe than ENFJs and ENFJs can have "better" Ti than ITPs. I agree with Jung's colleague Marie-Louise von Franz (she typed herself INTP), who mentioned that what one has conscious control over can easily be manipulated. Turned on and off at will. She went on to point out that is why Fe can appear more authentic in an INTP. There's no conscious manipulation going on. ENFJs might get pissed off at her comment. (Roll with the punches, people.)

I'm curious, though, if you feel that Hard looks differently from his type at all. And if so, to what do you attribute it?

Well, that's just it - I don't think he does look different. I'm not looking at him on a superficial level: first two function-attitudes only. I'm listening to the whole orchestra. To me, he's a classic example of ENFJ. But then I have conversed privately with a shitload of ENFJs in this forum, and observed their posts for many years.

I know we're discussing ENFJs, but I had a hilarious conversation with an INFJ years ago where he admitted to knocking a door down in anger. (Never mind the metaphor of door-slamming INFJs, this guy kicked down the entire door in a rage.) Now watch, some goofball will say: "That's not an INFJ!" Oh, really? Inside every NFJ could be a subconscious STP. (Or even more conscious than most, and they laugh at themselves.) How conscious it is to the person can vary wildly, and I apply no single standard of consciousness across a section of people. It's all personal. ENFJ Betty's level of consciousness could be a 3, whereas ENFJ Bob's level could be a 10. So, I could easily argue against all that "we" shit people post about their so-called type like it's a fraternity or sorority.

Referring back to a person being analogous to an orchestra, just because you hear a french horn playing loudly in someone, doesn't mean they are "french horn dominant". Someone next to you could be hearing an oboe playing in the same person. Jung admitted that it took him forever to see that his work with a patient was limited by his own consciousness. But at least he finally realized what he was doing. And why I bring it up is simple - Jung's work tells me more about Jung than people in general. Why? He can't see past his own level of consciousness. Nor can I. Nor can you.

Cheers, Rexy.

 

[1487610420]

Idk but

 

[Betty Blue]

So this has been on my mind ever since the meetup with [MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] [MENTION=23115]BadOctopus[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] several weeks ago, and I want to talk it out.

I am not calling my type into question. I know I am ENFJ, and I also know I am 1w2. The former though is somewhat odd to me. I know I am ENFJ because I definitely work foremost with Fe in my mind, and I supplement it with fairly equal parts Ni and Se (though I did not begin using the latter "right" until this past fall). Though it doesn't always come across that way.

I don't look like an ENFJ, and I want to understand why.

Note, I am only pointing out the external differences that most fly counter to what ENFJ usually is: On the surface, I appear like a Te dom, in some situations I sometimes look like an Se dom (though that's uncommon), but I don't really look like an Fe dom, and I am comparing myself to many other Fe doms that I know. There's four of us ENFJ's in my core friend group, and while all of us are very similar and can be "lumped together" there are areas where I am fundementally different with how I externally operate, and I don't know any other ENFJ's that share this. On issues, I actually quite often see eye to eye much more easily with several of my ISTJ friends. First and foremost, I am blunt and straightforward, and I can willingly turn my empathy on and off for many situations. I don't know any other Fe doms that can, or are even willing to do this. For example, if someone around me fucks up and does something wrong, and doesn't care, even if I know them well I will subject them to what the situation deserves, and will very unlikely feel sorry for them.

I'm also very apt to use "precedent" for solving situations and making judgement calls. My ENFJ friends (and as far as I can tell) most other ENFJ's don't really use that, and it's not their first line to do so. The reason I do so is it's less likely to make error to base something off a known. It's not actually my MO per-say, it's a learned skill. Nevertheless, much like I've learned how to socialize, it's become so ingrained in me that I automatically do it without consciously deciding to do so.

I don't want to be friends with the world, I want to be friends with people who are worthy. That sounds elitist (and it likely is), but I don't know how to word it otherwise (maybe people I can communicate well with?). Many ENFJ's I know (if not all?) want to be friends with nearly everyone they encounter, want to lift everyone up, and want everyone to be on the same level field. I definitely don't. Many even go out of their way to befriend people who are "broken" or something for the soul reason of feeling "they deserve a friend" or "I can fix that". I do not feel that is my responsibility at all, and I only do that unless there is reason to do so. It's not my MO at all. I associate with people where there is a mutual gain between both parties. Most ENFJ's actively seek the things I go against when it comes to people.

I can be very driving, very blunt/forceful, and have no issues imposing my will on other people. It doesn't need to be fueled by emotion or subjectivity either. In fact, I am far more comfortable with it when I have a solid external reason, authority, or solid item I can reference in an unambiguous manner. That way if people challenge it, it can't really be debated or pushed back against using a loophole or some bullshit technicality. Most ENFJ's are fairly forward, but aren't directly blunt or actively driving of others. In particular in an unambiguous manner. They tend to do much better when it is based off ambiguity.

Those are the big ones, I am sure others will come up/come out as the discussion ensues. Still, it's very puzzling to me why have so many atributes that go against what ENFJ's typically are. I know it happens occasionally, but that doesn't make it seem any less bizarre, or potentially invalidating. There's a reason Fe is associated with friendliness and inclusiveness. Just as Ni is associated with going with your gut and not needing a historical backing. I go opposite of those stereotypes. It's just the frequency and level that I go against them is high enough that it almost doesn't fit, despite thinking through those functions.

Thoughts? Questions? Discuss.

Without reading past the Op (so I don't know what the other people think you are) you come across as ESTJ, it's just a resounding something. However this does not mean to say that I believe you are ESTJ. I am very interested in understanding though as I have a friend (or rather my friends husband) who tests as ENFJ and totally identifies with all the ENFJ descriptions but behaviourally totally comes across as a really stereotypical ESTJ.

I am sorry if this is a struggle for you, I know that my own identity is very important to me and it has caused me distress in the past to question how I can be perceived in any other way than I am, who i know myself to be to the core. So please do not take this as a judgement on your type it's just the general vibe I get from reading the op.