How is it like to be P ?

[Virtual ghost]

This is probably true, but it just as easily goes the other way. J's get scared when P's don't have much of a plan or when the change the plan in the middle of the activity. The "intimidation" goes both ways equally.

I think that culture plays a huge role here. I can see why somebody could say this. Especially if they are from country with high degree of organistion.(like US)

But where I live everything is totally P.
People are easy going, public transportation has a schedule but in practice there is a chaos out there,everything is negotionable and everybody just want to survive a day. Even public institutions have a fair amount of P.

It is totally ESTP culture.

I was raised in this kind of environment so I am not planner that must make plans that have everything down to the last detail.
In this kind of environment and with that kind of thinking you wouldn't get far in most cases.
So I am always creating plans that are very flexibile and I am always changing them as I go through them and I can't do something without some kind of a plan.
I think this has actually made ma a good planner because I know that I can't have it exactly as I want and yet I always plan.


Why have I used word "intimidation"?

Beacuse the only people who are clearly J in this society are lawyers, bankers and organised crime.

 

[Unique]

I think that culture plays a huge role here. I can see why somebody could say this. Especially if they are from country with high degree of organistion.(like US)

But where I live everything is totally P.
People are easy going, public transportation has a schedule but in practice there is a chaos out there,everything is negotionable and everybody just want to survive a day. Even public institutions have a fair amount of P.

It is totally ESTP culture.

I was raised in this kind of environment so I am not planner that must make plans that have everything down to the last detail.
In this kind of environment and with that kind of thinking you wouldn't get far in most cases.
So I am always creating plans that are very flexibile and I am always changing them as I go through them and I can't do something without some kind of a plan.
I think this has actually made ma a good planner because I know that I can't have it exactly as I want and yet I always plan.


Why have I used word "intimidation"?

Beacuse the only people who are clearly J in this society are lawyers, bankers and organised crime.

You're very much stereotyping.

that said, where do you live? I'm moving there

 

[FDG]

People interpret the word "should" with different levels of definiteness. I doubt I meant it the way you are thinking.

It's okay, I was being half-facetious.

 

[Darjur]

Antisocial one, now answer me a question about J's.

Would a J do what for example I might do? it's not too rare for me to just wake up saturday in the morning, say fuck it and go spend 1-2 days without any prior thought about the subject in lets say Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Stockholm, Kaliningrad or whatever, just for the fuck of it? That is also why we don't like heavily planned structures. Because that is exactly what plans would not allows to do.

Now don't get me wrong, I have plans. Fairly detailed and throughout ones. But my plans consist of only two points.
1) Deadline and What I need to present at it.
2) The objective I need to do NOW, to finish any random part of the whole system whatsoever.
Beyond this, there I have NO active plans in my days system. And everything else is basically left to, what I feel like doing.

Another question, tell me this, could a INTJ/ENTJ work like this? This is for example what happened last Friday to me. I woke up at 8 am, wanted to go to work, noticed that I'm too sleepy and felt quite a bit sick. So I screwed over work, slept an extra 8 hours that day, went to work at 7pm and worked till 6 am. In essence, I did all of the work I myself wanted to do and spent an extra 5 hours in it just because I felt like it and I actually did nearly twice the amount of work I had originally wanted to do that day. I would in essence have destroyed any plans for the day if I had absolutely any set up prior wise, but if I had actually followed the hypothetical plan, I would have done maybe 1/5th of the work I did, because I would have felt like shit. Would you consider this to be an acceptable way of doing things? Even if it might actually be more productive?

Last question, how about you fucking tell us what country is it that you're from. Because the term country X is getting annoying.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Would a J do what for example I might do? it's not too rare for me to just wake up saturday in the morning, say fuck it and go spend 1-2 days without any prior thought about the subject in lets say Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Stockholm, Kaliningrad or whatever, just for the fuck of it? That is also why we don't like heavily planned structures. Because that is exactly what plans would not allows to do.

When it comes to this the answer can be 10 pages long but I will try to keep it short.
The point of planning is not to kill options it is about realizing complex ideas into reality.But even strong J (like me) can do something like this if it looks like a good idea.
Big picture plans must be flexibile because you won't get far without it.
But in everyday sitations you can see where things are going and you can create a plan to get things done (or what ever you wnat to do).
I don't have problems with the idea of changing the plan if better one can be created. But total spontaneity is something that is foreign to me.

Another question, tell me this, could a INTJ/ENTJ work like this? This is for example what happened last Friday to me. I woke up at 8 am, wanted to go to work, noticed that I'm too sleepy and felt quite a bit sick. So I screwed over work, slept an extra 8 hours that day, went to work at 7pm and worked till 6 am. In essence, I did all of the work I myself wanted to do and spent an extra 5 hours in it just because I felt like it and I actually did nearly twice the amount of work I had originally wanted to do that day. I would in essence have destroyed any plans for the day if I had absolutely any set up prior wise, but if I had actually followed the hypothetical plan, I would have done maybe 1/5th of the work I did, because I would have felt like shit. Would you consider this to be an acceptable way of doing things? Even if it might actually be more productive?

Of course, Js don't make plans because they want plans. They make them to be more efficient in their work. Working while you are tired is the most stupid choice you can make unless you have a deadline. Because your work will probably have deficit of quality and it will take much longer to complete.
So you are not actually working and you are not resting = complete waste of time.

Last question, how about you fucking tell us what country is it that you're from. Because the term country X is getting annoying.

I am from Croatia, I have said it in other threads but since you are new you you probably didn't come across those posts.
But don't take my words to be true about the country since I have tested as 100% J on few occasions.

 

[FDG]

Another question, tell me this, could a INTJ/ENTJ work like this? This is for example what happened last Friday to me. I woke up at 8 am, wanted to go to work, noticed that I'm too sleepy and felt quite a bit sick. So I screwed over work, slept an extra 8 hours that day, went to work at 7pm and worked till 6 am. In essence, I did all of the work I myself wanted to do and spent an extra 5 hours in it just because I felt like it and I actually did nearly twice the amount of work I had originally wanted to do that day.

Did any colleague depend on you being at work? Or was it only the end result that mattered? In the first case, I'd never have been able to sleep over; in the latter, then yes - it's actually optimal to work when you feel like working, rather than when you should, given that productivity is indeed higher.

(i'll leave this as an aside: I can't work at night - I'm not a night person - so there is no way I would have acted as you, but the principle is the same: I'd probably just have worked the day after)

Would a J do what for example I might do? it's not too rare for me to just wake up saturday in the morning, say fuck it and go spend 1-2 days without any prior thought about the subject in lets say Moscow, Sankt Petersburg, Stockholm, Kaliningrad or whatever, just for the fuck of it? That is also why we don't like heavily planned structures. Because that is exactly what plans would not allows to do.

If I had no prior agreement with somebody else on where to go and what to do, it wouldn't be a problem at all. However, if I had planned to go out with my girlfriend or with a friend, I wouldn't have done it (I personally don't find plans to be restrictive. I can plan things that I enjoy doing; in that case, it's obvious that I do not like to diverge from the plan. I've visited many places simply by thinking "ok, on Sat I will go visit that place" and doing it.).

I'm from Italy; my country has a generally P flavor, however my region (north-eastern italy) is relatively more J.

 

[Darjur]

If I had no prior agreement with somebody else on where to go and what to do, it wouldn't be a problem at all. However, if I had planned to go out with my girlfriend or with a friend, I wouldn't have done it (I personally don't find plans to be restrictive. I can plan things that I enjoy doing; in that case, it's obvious that I do not like to diverge from the plan. I've visited many places simply by thinking "ok, on Sat I will go visit that place" and doing it.).

Difference being, I would cancel those plans made prior. Even if it's stuff that I enjoy doing, I hate any prior arrangements, because at one specific time I might have something more interesting to do, at which case I would could not do that.

Did any colleague depend on you being at work? Or was it only the end result that mattered? In the first case, I'd never have been able to sleep over; in the latter, then yes - it's actually optimal to work when you feel like working, rather than when you should, given that productivity is indeed higher.

The end result.

I'm from Italy; my country has a generally P flavor, however my region (north-eastern italy) is relatively more J.

I am from Croatia, I have said it in other threads but since you are new you you probably didn't come across those posts.
But don't take my words to be true about the country since I have tested as 100% J on few occasions.

I know what you're referring to then, this is what the north calls "the southern attitude."

 

[FDG]

Difference being, I would cancel those plans made prior.

But that's maddening for other people, imho. I mean, I understand that a person might not care less, but I still think that it can be really maddening when others cancel plans just because. Another story is if you just avoid making any plan.

 

[Darjur]

But that's maddening for other people, imho. I mean, I understand that a person might not care less, but I still think that it can be really maddening when others cancel plans just because. Another story is if you just avoid making any plan.

I don't destroy plans that I know will have negative effects on me, but yes, I generally do my best to not have any to destroy. Most of my friends know this already, if they want me to come with them, they will have to come up to me and ask if I want to go with them now.

 

[FDG]

I don't destroy plans that I know will have negative effects on me, but yes, I generally do my best to not have any to destroy. Most of my friends know this already, if they want me to come with them, they will have to come up to me and ask if I want to go with them now.

I think this captures well the difference between P and J; I personally am more glad if a friend asks me with some time in advance (at least some hours, let's say).

 

[Virtual ghost]

I will resurrect this.

 

[VagrantFarce]

 

[Virtual ghost]

Now you got me intrigued.


What makes you think that this is a P thing ?

 

[VagrantFarce]

Now you got me intrigued.


What makes you think that this is a P thing ?

The embrace of change and the unknown, focusing on the process of discovery and adventure simply for the sake of it. Extraverted Perception, in other words.

[edit] also, what tom cruise says at the beginning of this scene:

[youtube=NcTu8sbx1zg]Improvising[/youtube]

 

[Qre:us]

It means I'm actively taking in data, in hopes of incorporation, until the very last second when a decision has to be made, and I welcome such open-ended perspective. It doesn't annoy or frustrate me; quite the opposite, it exhilarates me.

I thrive on chaos, it's like a dance to see what will win out, my reigning it in by jumping to the center of it, or the chaos taking everything apart through its whirlwind.

My plans, if I start with them, gains definition as I go along through it, it is not all laid out in detail from the beginning. Having a solid plan feels too constricting to me, like I'll "miss out" on something, not be aware, because I'm "sticking to the plan/pre-conceived notions". Like I'm not being fully open to all the possibilities. Narrowing my field of vision by starting off with blinders on, aka, THE PLAN. I.e., leaving myself open to the focusing effect.

If I don't start with a plan, it's because I want the environment, and all its variables of the moment, present, when I have to make the decision, i.e., guide me.

It helps that I can juggle quite a few things at once, so, not having closure in one thing doesn't hinder me from tackling another thing, and so on. It's like a fun balancing act, you never know when it will all crash to the floor, or if you'll make it to the other end, everything intact. Which is just a challenge in itself/a dare to myself. And, I can't pass those up.

Downside: to the extreme Js in my life, they tell me that it feels kind of like I play Russian Roulette with time. Every time. But, I've gotten better in that I'm quite considerate of others' comfort level, expectations, need for plans, that once I commit to something, and I have obligations to others, I'm good at keeping them. Or giving them opportunities, workable warning time, a say, if/when I feel that a change is more optimal than the originally laid out plans.

The best laid plans of mice and men, go oft awry. - R. Burns

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Why/how is J sucking life/joy out of Ps?


Ps often make this accusation so I ask.

I haven't read most of this thread.

I like J's. I like the dependability. Maybe I even take advantage of it?
They make the plans and I decide if I want to join in it. I have annoyed a few of my J friends because I've bailed out of plans or didn't commit until last minute. Or said I was on my way and never showed up. So I'd say I'm more likely to annoy them than the other way around. Thanks J people for putting up with all that.

To answer the OP.

I don't like committing to a plan ahead of time because I don't know what mood I'm going to be in when the time for that plan to come arrives.

Even if the plans are something I'd like to do and am enthusiastic to complete, they too easily become "obligations" to fulfill if not enacted quickly enough. I'd say 24 hours ahead of time is the most I like to commit too. Even then. The best way to get me to go out or do something is to give me virtually no notice.

 

[KDude]

[youtube="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf5rIuJPTt0"]Spicoli[/youtube]

"P" run amok.

Rampant informalism ("Hey I know that dude"), lack of planning, pleasure seeking ("All I want are some tasty waves"), improvisation ("my old man has some tools....")

 

[Tamske]

For me, it boils down to this.

There are things that need to be done and things you like to do. The intersection of these two sets is not empty. So there are things that you have to do AND like to do.

But.

Usually, if you have to do something, it's not something you like to do. Perceivers have been Pavlov-trained in this. If it's something we have to do, we'll like it automatically a bit less. When I attended high school, I hated literature class because we (over)analyzed literature and characters. Now that I don't have to analyze literature to get points, I like it and do it whenever I read a book...

Another way of describing the Perceiving mind is this one. Suppose you've got to give a talk and prepared it well. But during the talk you get interrupted, get unexpected questions, ... and everything went wrong.
Judger: I need to prepare better next time!
Perceiver: Why prepare if everything goes wrong anyway?

We also like to improvise on the spot and are good at it. If improvising works, why lose time on preparation? Why prepare something if new information makes your preparation worthless? We're constantly on the look-out for new information and see the world changing fast. Decisions need to be taken at the last possible moment.

At the same time, I love deadlines. Not for the whooshing sound they make as they fly by, but really. I need them. If I don't get outside stress, I'd create everything at once and be frustrated because I didn't finish anything. If I just get a tiny bit of outside pressure (eg. my husband knows I want to finish writing Chapter X by Sunday) I get a lot more productive. Maybe that's a little bit of Judging in me, but why not? I don't want to compete for Miss Perceiving or anything...
I think it's typical EP to need the outside stress to be productive. The J part (correct me if I'm wrong) of this picture is that I like it. I've only missed one out of ten-ish of those deadlines!

 

[yupyupyup]

Maybe I have a bit of J in me, but I love making lists and planning. But I keep them vague, because I don't like to get into too much detail into how, where, and when it will get done. I think I automatically resent goals. And Js revolve their lives around goals. I have vague goals, but no real concrete things. It also keeps me from doing things if I can't execute them perfectly or live up to all the potential I know I have. So instead of doing things halfway I just dont do them.

 

[yenom]

it is true that Ps are utterly incapable of planning and lack ambition, and just plain stupid. We procrastinate, have fun and just plain lazy.

Furthermore, if you are a J, you are probably ultra-cunning and extremely intelligent, and know every move a P want to make.

Therefor it is inevitable that NTJs will take over the world, and turn Ps into their slaves.
Maybe someone NTJ like napoleon will conquer the world and decide whats best for us.